works and the law, part 1

I am going to cover the issue of keeping the law and needing works to help in our salvation. I am thinking I will do this in 3 parts. So if your question is not covered in the part I have posted, and you ask, well what about this verse, whatever that verses is, I might tell you that will be adressed in the next part. But others are more than welcome to adresse it right then and their.

Lets start with what the LDS church teaches about these things. Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie, salvation must be understood in light of these two definitions:

1. "Unconditional or general salvation, that which comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected. In this sense salvation is synonymous with immortality; it is the inseparable connection of body and spirit so that the resurrected personage lives forever."
2. "Conditional or individual salvation, that which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience, consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one's mortal probation" (Mormon Doctrine pp. 669-670).

McConkie Also said

"those who gain only this general or unconditional salvation will still be judged according to their works and receive their places in a terrestrial or a telestial kingdom. They will, therefore be damned." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 669).

On pages 211-212 of his book The Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer Kimball the LDS PROPHET chastised members who

"are doing nothing seriously wrong except in their failures to do the right things to earn their salvation".

Bruce McConkie goes on to say again,

"Salvation grows automatically out of the resurrection, and the coming forth in the resurrection constitutes the receipt of whatever degree of salvation has been earned." (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 1:196).

Then in volume three of the same set, he wrote,

"Salvation is free,' but it must also be purchased; and the price is obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (3:461).

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism states that

"for repentance to be complete, one must abandon the sinful behavior...Failure to alter outward actions means that the sinner has not repented, and the weight of the former sin returns" (3:1217).

Spencer Kimball teaches,

"discontinuance of sin must be permanent"

(The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 176).


President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote,

"To enter the celestial and obtain exaltation it is necessary that the whole law be kept...Do you desire to enter the celestial Kingdom and receive eternal life? Then be willing to keep all of the commandments." (The Way to Perfection, pg. 206).

Mormonism teaches that this lifetime is a probation period. Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie stated:

"One of the great purposes of this mortal probation is to test and try men, to see if they will keep the commandments and walk in the light no matter what environmental enticements beckon them away from the straight and narrow path" (Mormon Doctrine, pg.229).

The purpose of this lifetime is for the Mormon to prove himself worthy of exaltation. To fail in that capacity will result in never reaching that celestial goal.

President Joseph Fielding Smith said

if they rebelled and refused to comply with the laws and ordinances which were provided for their salvation, it would deny them the great gift and they would be assigned, after the resurrection, to some inferior sphere according to their works. (Doctrines of Salvation 1:69)

This agrees with Alma 34:32-33,

"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors... And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed."

It seems clear that while some Mormons feel they can get things right after death, this is not supported by LDS teaching.

Tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith said compliance with the law, not willingness, was necessary to obtain Godhood.

"This mortal probation was to be a brief period, just a short span linking the eternity past with the eternity future. Yet it was to be a period of tremendous importance. It would either give to those who received it the blessing of eternal life, which is the greatest gift of God, and thus qualify them for godhood as sons and daughters of our Eternal Father, or, if they rebelled and refused to comply with the laws and ordinances which were provided for their salvation, it would deny them the great gift and they would be assigned, after the resurrection, to some inferior sphere according to their works. This life is the most vital period in our eternal existence (Doctrines of Salvation 1:69).

The Book of Mormon teaches,

"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors" (Alma 34:32).

Spencer Kimball teaches, a mere willingness to try to overcome sinful tendencies is not enough. He asserted,

"Trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin."

He went on to say, "To 'try' is weak. To 'do the best I can' is not strong. We must always do better than we can" (Miracle, pp.164-165).

It appers as if Grace plus works, after all we can do, is simply impossible, or very close to it, Look at how Tenth Mormon President Joseph Fielding Smith does not offer a lot of hope for many professing Latter-day Saints when he said,

"There will not be such an overwhelming number of the Latter-day Saints who will get there" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:15).

Smith agreed with Apostle Francis M. Lyman's assessment that "if we save one-half of the Latter-day Saints, that is, with an exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God, we will be doing well."

Bruce McConkie said that damnation will affect many types of individuals. On pages 176-177 of his book Mormon Doctrine, he stated that damnation will be experienced by those who are sons of perdition. On page 746 of the same book he describes sons of perdition as Lucifer, the demons (Mormonism teaches that the demons are God's spirit-children who chose to follow Lucifer in the "war in heaven"), and "those who have a perfect knowledge of the divinity of the gospel cause...then link themselves with Lucifer and come out in open rebellion."

Then, McConkie expands the definition of damnation to also include "those who fail to gain an inheritance in the celestial kingdom" as well as those "who fail to gain exaltation in the highest heaven within the celestial world, even though they do gain a celestial mansion in one of the lower heavens of that world" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 176).


Lots of mormons have told me that if they die and only enter the first or second heaven they will have a chance to still move up to the 3rd heaven. Not so according to these guys. 10th President Joseph Fielding Smith said,

"It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory? The answer to this question is, No! The scriptures are clear on this point" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:31).

Doctrine and Covenants 25:15 says

"Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come."

Some Questions to think about?

* Joseph Smith said that a person "would get nearer to God by abiding by [the Book of Mormon's] precepts than by any other book" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 194). Just what are those "precepts" from the Book of Mormon that God wants you to follow that cannot be found in other books like the Bible?

* Alma 11:37 says that "no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven"? Are you clean? How did you get that way? And how long does this cleansing last?

* Alma 11:37 also says that, as a Mormon, you "cannot be saved in your sins." D&C 1:31 adds that God cannot "look upon sin with the least degree of allowance." Do you struggle with sin? If so, can it be assumed that you are not saved?

* As a Mormon I am sure you take repentance very seriously. However, on page 67 of the LDS Church manual Gospel Fundamentals it states, "Our Father in heaven does not sin, and He does not allow people who sin to live with Him. To live with Him we must repent of our sins. To repent means to feel sorry for our sins and stop doing them." Have you stopped sinning? If not, how can you be sure you will live eternally with Heavenly Father? If the above statement is true, doesn't the fact you continually repent, prove you are not truly repentant; after all, people who stop sinning have no need to repent.

* D&C 25:15 says that unless a person keeps the commandments "continually," he cannot go where God is. Do you keep the commandments continually? If not, where do Mormons like you go when they die?

* If you cannot say that you do keep the commandments "continually," then how do you explain 1 Nephi 3:7 where it says, "For I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them"?

* Isaiah 44:6,8 says that there is no God beside the God of the Bible and that this God does not know of any other gods. If this is Jesus (Jehovah) speaking—as attested to by such LDS leaders as Apostle Bruce McConkie (The Promised Messiah, p.312)—does that mean Jesus does not know His own Father? If you were to actually become a god, would God know you?

* In Alma 11:26-29 Amulek tells Zeezrom that there is only one "true and living God." If that is true, which of the three Gods in the Mormon godhead is not true and/or living? God the Father? Jesus? Or the Holy Ghost?

* If we are to believe that the Nephites are truly ancient "Mormons," where in the Book of Mormon does it say they held the Melchizedek priesthood? Where does it say they practiced baptism for the dead? Or believe that men can become Gods? How about God having a body of flesh and bones? What about the existence of a "heavenly mother"? Where does it say that all humans existed prior to this earthly existence? Or how Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?

* D&C 88:22 says that only those who abide a celestial law can hope to achieve the celestial kingdom. Are you keeping celestial law?

* If the "decrees of God are unalterable" (Alma 41:8), why has your church made so many corrections over the years (i.e. Declarations 1 and 2, changes in the temple endowment ceremony, changes in the birth control doctrine, etc.)?

* Your leaders have taught that salvation comes by faith and works. If this is true, then why did Joseph Smith insert the word "alone" into Romans 3:28 of his Inspired Version (a.k.a. the Joseph Smith Translation) of the Bible? (It reads, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law.")

* Joseph Smith inserted the word not in Romans 4:5 of the Inspired Version so that it reads, "...who justifieth not the ungodly..." Are you "godly"? If so, how did you get that way? If not, doesn't that mean you are not justified before God? Why would God need to justify a godly person anyway?

* President Brigham Young concluded his Adam-God sermon with these words: "Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation" (Journal of Discourses 1:51). Do you believe Adam is God? If not, aren't you treating these "doctrines" lightly or with indifference"? Wasn't Spencer Kimball treating Young's teaching with indifference when he called it a "false doctrine" (Church News 10/9/76)? If Young was correct, will Kimball be damned? If Kimball was correct, doesn't this prove LDS prophets can teach false doctrine?

* Alma 10:3 states that Lehi "was a descendant of Manasseh." If Indians are really descendants of Lehi and his son Laman, why does DNA deny any link between Indians and Lehi's Jewish heritage?

* Joseph Smith said, "We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345). But the Book of Mormon says in Moroni 8:18, "For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity." Did God change? Or was He always God?

* President Brigham Young and other LDS leaders taught that those who were not valiant in the preexistence were marked in mortality with a "flat nose and black skin." (See Journal of Discourses 7:290, The Way to Perfection, p.101, Answers to Gospel Questions 2:175, Mormon Doctrine, p.527.) Since it was this mark that would help distinguish who was not eligible to receive the priesthood, why do some people still bear the mark even though the priesthood ban was lifted in 1978?

* Presidents Brigham Young and Wilford Woodruff both taught that God is progressing in knowledge (Journal of Discourses 11:286, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p.3). Yet President Joseph Fielding Smith said that "this kind of doctrine is very dangerous" (Doctrines of Salvation 1:8). Which prophet was telling the truth?

* When asked in a Time magazine interview if God the Father was once a man, President Gordon Hinckley said, "I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it..." (8/4/97, p. 56). Was he telling the truth?

* Are you "sufficiently humble" and "stripped of pride"? If not, Alma 5:27,28 says you are not prepared to die. If you think you are, doesn't this prove you're not?

* Apostle Bruce R. McConkie said "a man may be damned for a single sin" (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary 3:257). Can you account for every single sin you have ever committed?

* President Spencer Kimball said that only those who are "living all the commandments" are guaranteed "total forgiveness of sins" and assured of "exaltation" (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.208). Are you living all of the commandments? If not, how can you be sure you are forgiven?

* Spencer Kimball also taught that "each command we obey sends us another rung up the ladder to perfected manhood and toward godhood; and every law disobeyed is a sliding toward the bottom where man merges into the brute world" (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.133). How tall is this proverbial ladder? And which rung are you on?

* President Joseph F. Smith said, "...it is absolutely necessary for every man and woman in the Church of Christ to work righteousness, to observe the laws of God, and keep the commandments that He has given, in order that they may avail themselves of the power of God unto salvation in this life" (General Conference Report, October 1907, p.3) Yet Titus 3:5 states clearly that salvation is not gained by "works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy." How can salvation be wrought by God's mercy if you earned it through good works?

* In Ephesians 2:8,9 the Apostle Paul states, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." When Paul uses the word "saved," is he making a reference to a general resurrection or exaltation?

* The Apostle John stated, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13). If you were to die right now, do you know for certain if you will have eternal life? If not, when will you finally know? Wouldn't you like to have this issue settled before you die? Do you think you ever will if you remain in the Mormon Church?

The section I posted about questions to think about, was taken From the Mormonism researech minstry website. So the question I will ask is, Would you rather try keeping the entire law, or simply allow grace that God gives to save you? Rick b

Word of Wisdom pt3

Let me first post the verses I want to go over.

8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.
10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.
12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.
14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;
15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.
16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—
17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.
18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;
19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;
20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.
21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

Ok, lets start with this.

8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

Ok, I do not smoke, and I believe it is a waste of money, But apart from that, Honestly how many faithful LDS members can say, they use tobacco for bruises or how many LDS know of cattle ranchers who use tobacco on the livestock they own?

10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.
12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

From the time of Adam and Eve in the garden till the time Noah stepped of the Ark, we were only allowed to eat fruit and herbs. After Noah stepped of the Ark, then we were allowed to eat meat. But in verses 12 and 13 it states meat is both to be used sparingly and only in times of winter or famine.

I am guessing that LDS are not going with a complete Vegan diet in the summer. If not then you either are not obeying the WOW or you dont take these verses seriously. Why is that?

Ok, Chuck the LDS member quoted much from the OT in the way of verses that state certain people could not eat Raisins, or grapes because they are fruit from the vine and could be made into wine, and wine is a big no, no, according to the WOW. Then Chuck stated these were laws for all to follow, well here is another problem, read verse16

All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground

In verse 16, we read, we can partake of the fruit of the vine. No where in the entire WOW does it say what the fruit of the vine is, or is not. Grapes grow on vines, once the grapes are removed and dried they form raisins, Well according to the verse Chuck quoted and the things he said, these verse prove and are laws saying we cannot eat from the fruit of the vine, Now the WOW says we can. Strange.

Here in verse 17 we read

17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

Grain can be used for mild drinks. So what are Mild drinks made with Barly or grain? Beer is mild compared to whisky. what about Hot mild drinks, Does this mean that any mild drink must be served cold? If so why not cold coffee or tea?

What about these verses here?

18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;
19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;
20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.
21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

I have posted over 500 replys on the fairLDS board, When over their I talked with many LDS who admited they do not fully follow the WOW to the letter. If your reading this topic, you could post and say you follow the WOW to the letter, I do not know if your lying or not, only you do, But for all the LDS who know in their heart that they do not fully obey the WOW, I would ask this, Has the destorying angel destoryed you?

If not, then is that a lie? Or will God destory you at a latter time? What about the verse in the Bible where Jesus said,

Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:20 These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, [it] cannot defile him;

So according to Jesus, it is not what goes into us (Coffee, tea, wine, meat Etc) that defiles us, but what comes out of us. Rick b

Word of Wisdom pt2

Were Going to Focus on Verses 5-9 in this part of the WOW. First lets review what they say.
5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.
7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

Let me start by saying this, If anyone wants to follow a certain Diet, or eat or drink certain things and not others for any reason, Then good for you. But to say that if we eat certain foods God will not allow us into Heaven is a false teaching.

Lets first read what the Bible teaches on this subject.
In Acts 10 we read about God telling peter to kill and eat.

Act 10:10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
Act 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Act 10:15 And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.
Act 10:16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Another list of verses we read is

Mat 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

Rom 14:21 [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.

1Cr 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

1Cr 9:4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?

1Cr 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

1Ti 3:8 Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Tts 2:3 The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things.

Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Luk 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Mar 2:22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Ok, I gave a list of verses that show God, Jesus and the apostles Drank Wine and do not condemn the drinking of any beverage. For all the people that want to claim the wine Jesus drank was non-alcoholic
then I must ask this, Why was Jesus accused of being a drunk? You cannot be accused of being a drunk if you drink grape juice. And I might add if wine does not contain alcohol why not simply call it grape Juice. Plus the fact Jesus used the example of new wine bursting old wine skins shows that the wine is fermennting, theirfore it does contain Alcohol.

I would ask this also, Why would God or the Bible provide verses that allow people to drink and include wine, and never mention the fact that if you do this you cannot enter the 3rd heaven, But years later God changes his mind and will keep you out of heaven for drinking something?

I would like to point out also and ask a question. How do we go from HOT DRINKS to this means Coffee or Tea, but Not Hot Chocolate, soup broth, warm to hot milk? The WOW does not define Hot Drinks as Coffee or Tea, so how come we cannot drink cold coffeee or cold tea, if the Hot Drinks is not clearly defined as such?

I have heard mormons claims we cannot drink Coffee or tea because of Caffine, So I must ask, if this is the reason, then why is it ok for Mormons to Drink Hot Chocolate or soda that contains Caffine or even eat a chocolate Candy bar or use medicane that contains Caffine? If it is an issue of Caffine, how come we then cannot drink Caffine free Tea? I know a few LDS who Claim Hot Chocolate was not around in JS day, that was why it was not included. But According to History of Hot Chocolate it has been around since the 1500's and was even around in the 1800's. Odds are pretty Good it was around in JS day. History of Hot Chocolate

Her are some ,more problems I have with the Word of Wisdom.

The Prophet Spencer Kimball Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. he gives a list of 6 things called (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). it says When you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,
1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.

Notice it says "Obedience to the Word of Wisdom." Yet Many LDS members do not follow this. Also we read in Gospel Principles pg 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. we are not repentant if we don't sustain the authorities of the church and don't love the lord and our fellow man. Yet again many LDS do not meet this requirement.

Here is an intersting little problem I find. We read in the Teachings of the PJS.

it is shown that, on May 28, 1837, it was"resolved unanimously, that we will not fellowship any ordained member who will not, or does not, observe the Word of Wisdom according to its literal reading." According to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, "In the mid-1830s, many Church members felt that abstinence from alcohol, tobacco, tea, and coffee was a criterion for fellowship. The one possible exception to this otherwise strict interpretation was wine, which some early Church leaders may not have considered 'strong drink.' This early emphasis on abstinence or near abstinence failed to gain Church-wide or official acceptance, although Joseph Smith said no member 'is worthy to hold an office' who has been taught the Word of Wisdom and fails 'to comply with and obey it' (TPJS, p.117, fn.).


LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith said that a member could not hold a church office unless he abided by the Word of Wisdom. Smith writes this in Essentials in Church History: "One question considered was as follows: 'Whether disobedience to the word of wisdom was a transgression sufficient to deprive an official member from holding office in the Church, after having it sufficiently taught him?'' After a free and full discussion Joseph Smith, who presided, gave his decision as follows: 'No official member in this Church is worthy to hold an office after having the word of wisdom properly taught him; and he, the official member, neglecting to comply with or obey it.' This decision was confirmed by unanimous vote." pg 169

So why is it the LDS chuch Teaches no man can hold a postion of Athourity if he drinks, yet BY stated he made a still house to make whisky and sell it for money?



Added to the Fact that BY made and sold whisky, JS was the mayor and as a result was allowed to sell or give spirits of any quantity according to History of the Church Vol 6, And it appers he did just that. So your two Church Prophets sell, make and Drink Yet the rest of LDS will be denied heaven for drinking.


We Read this story in Alma 55:8-19

8 And when it was evening Laman went to the guards who were over the Nephites, and behold, they saw him coming and they hailed him; but he saith unto them: Fear not; behold, I am a Lamanite. Behold, we have escaped from the Nephites, and they sleep; and behold we have taken of their wine and brought with us.
9 Now when the Lamanites heard these words they received him with joy; and they said unto him: Give us of your wine, that we may drink; we are glad that ye have thus taken wine with you for we are weary.
10 But Laman said unto them: Let us keep of our wine till we go against the Nephites to battle. But this saying only made them more desirous to drink of the wine;
11 For, said they: We are weary, therefore let us take of the wine, and by and by we shall receive wine for our rations, which will strengthen us to go against the Nephites.
12 And Laman said unto them: You may do according to your desires.
13 And it came to pass that they did take of the wine freely; and it was pleasant to their taste, therefore they took of it more freely; and it was strong, having been prepared in its astrength.
14 And it came to pass they did drink and were merry, and by and by they were all adrunken.
15 And now when Laman and his men saw that they were all drunken, and were in a adeep sleep, they returned to Moroni and told him all the things that had happened.
16 And now this was according to the design of Moroni. And Moroni had prepared his men with weapons of war; and he went to the city Gid, while the Lamanites were in a deep sleep and drunken, and cast in aweapons of war unto the prisoners, insomuch that they were all armed;
17 Yea, even to their women, and all those of their children, as many as were able to use a weapon of war, when Moroni had armed all those prisoners; and all those things were done in a profound silence.
18 But had they awakened the Lamanites, behold they were drunken and the Nephites could have slain them.
19 But behold, this was not the desire of Moroni; he did not adelight in murder or bloodshed, but he delighted in the saving of his people from destruction; and for this cause he might not bring upon him injustice, he would not fall upon the Lamanites and destroy them in their drunkenness.

My point of this story is this, They used Wine, So Again, why would God allow wine for many years then all of a sudden change it? We even read Noah after the Flood made wine, Granted getting Drunk was a problem, But God never rebuked Noah for drinking.

Lastly, Again on the Issue of Tea and No Salvation,

LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote,

"SALVATION AND A CUP OF TEA. You cannot neglect little things. 'Oh, a cup of tea is such a little thing. It is so little; surely it doesn't amount to much; surely the Lord will forgive me if I drink a cup of tea.' …if you drink coffee or tea, or take tobacco, are you letting a cup of tea or a little tobacco stand inn the road and bar you from the celestial kingdom of God, where you might otherwise have received a fulness of glory?" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:16)

So According to J.F.S Are BY and Mormon Settlers missing out on salvation?
Read this.

Utah County
Thursday, April 6, 2006
Nice cup of 'Mormon tea' eased settlers' ailments
By Rodger L. Hardy
Deseret Morning News
PAYSON — There's plenty of information about the kind of tea early Utah settlers drank.
The tea may have passed through some of the tea sets at the Peteetneet Academy. The most common, "Mormon tea," came from "a branched broomlike shrub growing up to four feet tall, with slender, jointed stems. The leaves are reduced to scales and grow in opposite pairs or whorls of three and are fused for half their length. Male and female flowers are borne on separate plants in conelike structures. They are followed by small brown to black seeds."
Other common names included: "Brigham tea," "cowboy tea," "squaw tea" and "canyon tea."
The plant is in the Gnetaceae Genus Ephedra family. While it is a source of ephedra, it doesn't violate the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' Word of Wisdom. When the whole plant was used, no negative side effects were reported. In recent years, however, extracted ephedra has led to serious health problems.
Ephedra from the plant, which is found in the southwestern United States, isn't as potent as that from China and India. American Indians drank it to help stop bleeding.
The early settlers placed a handful of the stems in boiling water for each cup. After they removed the concoction from heat they would let it steep. Sometimes they sweetened it with sugar or jam.
Other settlers brewed a strong tea from the plant to treat syphilis and other venereal diseases and as a tonic.
Seeds from the plant were ground as bitter meal or used to flavor bread dough.
Known effects include:
• a stimulus to the central nervous system
• increased blood pressure
• increased heart rate
• increased urine to dispose of excess body fluid
• elevated mood
• decreased appetite
• lessened fatigue

It appers More LDS do not Follow the WoW and Jesus never laid this heavy burden upon any man. Rick B

Word of Wisdom pt1

I want to cover the Word of Wisdom (WoW). I was thinking of doing two parts to this, but I decided I will cover it in 3 parts. The first part will cover the issue of how it came to be, and is it a law or commandment we must follow for salvation, or merely keep if we simply want to.

Part two will cover the issue of Coffee, tea, tobacco, hot drinks in general, The 3rd part will cover the rest. I gave this break down so if you have questions in part one, that will cover things in part 2 or 3, then I ask for you to please wait till then. I am thinking this will turn into a long topic, so that was why I decide to go with 3 parts instead.

First, let me put out the Word Of Wisdom for everyone to read. Not everyone has the benefit of owning a copy of D and C. WoW

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833. HC 1: 327–329. As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently he inquired of the Lord concerning it. This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result. The first three verses were originally written as an inspired introduction and description by the Prophet.
1–9, Use of wine, strong drinks, tobacco, and hot drinks proscribed; 10–17, Herbs, fruits, flesh, and grain are ordained for the use of man and of animals; 18–21, Obedience to gospel law, including the Word of Wisdom, brings temporal and spiritual blessings.


1 A Word OF Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—
2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—
3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.
4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—
5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.
7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.
10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.
12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.
14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;
15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.
16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—
17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.
18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;
19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;
20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.
21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

We read this account given by Brigham Young in the JoD.

The first school of the prophets was held in a small room situated over the Prophet Joseph's kitchen.... When they assembled together in this room after breakfast, the first they did was to light their pipes, and, while smoking, talk about the great things of the kingdom, and spit all over the room, and as soon as the pipe was out of their mouths a large chew of tobacco would then be taken. Often when the Prophet entered the room to give the school instructions he would find himself in a cloud of tobacco smoke. This, and the complaints of his wife at having to clean so filthy a floor, made the Prophet think upon the matter, and he inquired of the Lord relating to the conduct of the Elders in using tobacco, and the revelation known as the Word of Wisdom was the result of his inquiry (Journal of Discourses, vol. 12, p.158)

It would apper to me, and this is simply my MERE OPINION. I think instead of JS telling everyone to stop spitting Tobacco on the floor, he claims God spoke to him on this sugject. Even if God really did speak to him about this, it still is strange that we go from a simple non-command to a serious command years later.


Well we read in verse 2: 2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days

It says that this was not a commandment. Yet it turns into one around 18 years or so after it was first reveled. If this really was given by the Lord, why does it not start out as a command, but years later turn into one? Why is it God simply could not start it out as a command? I ask in light of the verse found in Alma 41:8

8 Now, the decrees of God are unalterable; therefore, the way is prepared that whosoever will may walk therein and be saved.

Then as a result of this so called command, People can be kept out of the temple and possibly be denied entrance into the celestial kingdom, if they do not obey the WoW. Because of this, I want to ask, Why was this WoW not given as one of the ten commandments or at least mentioned by Jesus in the Bible or the BoM?

We even read faithful LDS members cannot hold certain offices if the deny or do not obey the WoW.

History of the Church 2:34-35 reported this in February 1834: "The president opened the Council by prayer...The Council then proceeded to try the question, whether disobedience to the Word of Wisdom was a transgression sufficient to deprive an official member from holding office in the Church, after having it sufficiently taught him. Councilors Samuel H. Smith, Luke S. Johnson, John S. Carter, Sylvester Smith, John Johnson and Orson Hyde, were called to speak upon the case then before the Council. After the Councilors had spoken, the President proceeded to give the decision: No official member in this Church is worthy to hold an office, after having the Word of Wisdom properly taught him, and he, the official member, neglecting to comply with or obey it; which decision the Council confirmed by vote."

I find it really sad that even an LDS member feels, us Non-LDS notice the hypocrisy of LDS members not obeying the WoW.

The hypocrisy of the membership was even admitted by LDS Apostle Orson Pratt who once stated, "I do not wonder that the world say that the Latter-day Saints do not believe their own revelations. Why? Because we do not practice them. Journal of Discourses 17:104

Well if the LDS admit they dont keep them and you must in order to enter the temple, then did God really give this WoW? Rick b

Joseph Smith's Bible (part 3)

I am doing a 3rd part and am going to cover some problems I find in the JST of the Bible, then ask some questions.

First problem I find is this, why is it JS simply copied some verses word for word and claimed he correct these verse, when in fact their is not a single change made? below are some examples.

KJV:
Exd 2:11 And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.

JST:
Exd 2:11 And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.

KJV:
Exd 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, [even] to Horeb.

JST:
Exd 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, [even] to Horeb.

KJV:
Lev 7:14 And of it he shall offer one out of the whole oblation [for] an heave offering unto the LORD, [and] it shall be the priest's that sprinkleth the blood of the peace offerings.

JST:
Lev 7:14 And of it he shall offer one out of the whole oblation [for] an heave offering unto the LORD, [and] it shall be the priest's that sprinkleth the blood of the peace offerings.

KJV:
Lev 7:32 And the right shoulder shall ye give unto the priest [for] an heave offering of the sacrifices of your peace offerings.

JST:
Lev 7:32 And the right shoulder shall ye give unto the priest [for] an heave offering of the sacrifices of your peace offerings.

I could go on with a ton more verses, But it even states in the JST on Page 11, Psalms 1-11 and 18-32 are exactly word for word as the KJV? How is this Correct or inspired as JS claims?

Then their are some verses in the JST where their is only one single letter added or on single word changed, and it still works out to saying the same exact thing. Examples are below. the word(s) in the JST that differ from the KJV will be put in ().

KJV:
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

JST:
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down (out of ) heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

KJV:
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred [and] forty [and] four cubits, [according to] the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

JST:
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, (a) hundred [and] forty [and] four cubits, [according to] the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

Notice in the verse 21:17 the word (AN) has the single letter (N) dropped. this really makes no change to the word. anyone simply could argue in favor of either version that the single letter added or removed is nothing more than a typo.

Here is another verse that I simply do not see how it could be "corrected" or "inspired"

KJV:
1Timothy 3:8 Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre.

1Timothy 3:8 Likewise the deacons must [be] grave, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre.

Notice that the only change between the verses are simply the movement of the word (MUST). How is this a correction? The JST is so full of stuff like this it is not even funny.

Then we read in KJV of the Book of Revelation 22:18-19

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Now my point on these verses is this, JS did not touch these verses, so he must have felt they were translated correctly, or God must have felt they were fine. Anyway, If these verses are correct to the point they were not changed in anyway, then this poses a problem, even if LDS feel these verses only apply to the Book of Revelation and no other book, then JS did make changes to the book of Revelation. So why would God put these verses in the Book, only to later have JS turn around and "correct" the Book.

If God is really all knowing, and if He is not the author of confusion, it would stand to reason, He would have foreseen the changes that needed to be made to the book of revelation, so why would God put these two verses in the book in the first place?

Then there are 9 books JS felt were correct and never changed, both in the Old and New testemants.
If we add to that, all the verses that were not changed, all the verses that were altered, but those mean nothing in the sence of, one single letter was added or removed like with the example of (A) verses (AN), then the more serious changes that were made are really so few, it would stand to reason that the majorty of the Bible is accurate. And seeing as how the LDS feel it is not Accurate, who is correct. The Bible or JS?

Here are a few Examples of what I mean by, some books have very few to almost no changes.
The Book of 2 Corinthians is 13 Chapters long, JS only changed 9 chapters. but out of those 9 chapters 6 of those Chapters only have 1-2 verses changed, and 2 more chapters have 3 verses changed.

Then in 1st Thessalonians is 5 Chapters. JS only changed 4 chapters, but 2 chapters only have 1 verse changed, 2 Chapters have 2 verses changed, and 1 Chapter has 3 verses changed.

The one page book of Philemon has only one verse changed. And the same with the book of Jude, only one verse changed. My point on this is simply this, These changes are major enough, that JS altered the Word of God, yet most Changes are minor enough that you really have to ask, how can you say, these are corrections?

Now here are some more questions.

Brigham Young said

In the Bible are the words of life and salvation . We are believers in the Bible...its precepts, doctrine, and prophecy...We take this book, the Bible...for our guide, for our rule of action; we take it as the foundation of our faith.

Discourses of BY, PG 124-125.

I think it is really confusing for BY to say what he did, Knowing that the Bible was "Corrected" by JS from a revelation of God.

Then again, BY on pg 126, goes onto say,

With us the Bible is the first book, then the book of mormon comes next.

Then many years later we read,

The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints accepts the Holy Bible as the foremost of her standerd works, first among the books which have been proclaimed as her written guides in faith and Doctrine. (A of F , Talmage p.236)

Now, According to A of F number 8, the Bible not translated correctly. If this is true, then can you tell me what part is NOT TRANSLATTED Corectly?

How do you come to the conclusion you did, if you even answerd the question?

Can you give me a list of ten inaccurate translations?

Can you list any errors that are now in the Bible? if so, how did you come to that conclusion?

If God really did tell JS to "correct error" in the Bible, why are you still using a corrput version?

According to D and C 124:89

89 If he will do my will let him from henceforth hearken to the counsel of my servant Joseph, and with his interest support the cause of the poor, and publish the new translation of my holy word unto the inhabitants of the earth.

God says, the JST is His Holy Word. so why all the problems that are both found in the JST and the fact that BY and others (talmage), For one, seem to teach the Bible is Superior, why?

Now here are some things that the Bible teaches.

John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

If the Bible, Gods Holy Word, says this stuff about it, and it is incorrect, then first off, how can I trust anyone, if God allows His word to be corrputed? Then if it really is Gods word, and it is useful for correcting Error, and I cannot trust it, then how can I trust JS. If he really heard from God, to correct error, but had much error himself, both in the JST and the BoM, with the 4,000 plus changes, Who can I trust? Rick b

That's Just His Opinion

Often, when Mormons are presented with statements from their leaders that could cause some difficulty for them, many will respond by saying something like "Oh, that's just his opinion. Its not the official view of the Mormon Church." Often, when Mormons talk about official doctrines of the Church they usually mean the Standard Works: The Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrines and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price.

Although many Mormons do not view other LDS writings as official Scripture (for example, The Seer or The Journal of Discourses), it should be remembered that many of these writings consist of the words of very prominent leaders in the Mormon Church. As such individuals commanded great respect they were certainly influential over the rank and file. Their statements must have carried some weight. Mormon leaders in prominent positions, like Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, and Bruce R. McConkie, influenced those who looked to them for leadership. The words of these early LDS leaders did not just go out into a vacuum, they went the hearts and minds of the Mormon people and were incorporated into their beliefs.

It would also seem that many Mormon leaders have tended to view their words as carrying a great deal of weight. For example, regarding the sermons of Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses it is interesting to look at some of Young's words himself as to how he viewed what was contained in the Discourses:

"I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them to the celestial kingdom, as I know the road to my office...I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve." (Journal of Discourses, vol.13.p.95. Also see vol.13.p.264).

Even though it is fashionable for today's Mormons to say that they will not accept statements which are not officially classed as revelation, or Scripture, I came across the following quote of a BYU professor which I thought was interesting regarding this very issue:

"...While certain doctrines are enunciated in the standard works and some doctrinal issues have been addressed in formal pronouncements by the First Presidency, there is nothing in Mormonism comparable to the Westminster Confession of Faith of the Augsberg Confession. Few of the truly distinctive doctrines of Mormonism are discussed in official sources. It is mainly by unofficial means -- Sunday School lessons, seminary, institute, and BYU religion classes, sacrament meeting talks and books by Church officials and others who ultimately speak only for themselves -- that the theology is passed from one generation to the next. Indeed it would seem that a significant part of Mormon theology exists primarily in the minds of the members... the absence of a formal creed means that each generation must produce a new set of gospel expositors to restate and reinterpret the doctrines of Mormonism." (Peter Crawley, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn 1982).

Related to the above observations from the BYU professor, it can be pointed out that there are some doctrines of Mormonism that are simply not found in the official Standard Works. The LDS doctrine of their being a "Mother in Heaven" is one example. Nowhere is this doctrine found in any of the official Standard Works of the Church. However, such a doctrine is vital in the Mormon concept of eternal progression. If God was not married to His wife in Mormonism then He could never have become God in the first place. eternal progression topic

Some Mormons will object that unless a statement by an LDS Church leader opens with the statement "Thus saith the Lord", then it can be set aside as the mere opinion of the speaker. However, not everyone would agree with this. In 1980 prominent Mormon leaders gave a speech which contained the following words:

"SIXTH: The Prophet Does Not Have to Say "Thus Saith the Lord" to Give Us Scripture. Sometimes there are those who haggle over words. They might say the prophet gave us counsel but that we are not obligated to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the Lord says of the Prophet, "Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you." (D&C 21:4.) And speaking of taking counsel from the Prophet, in D&C 108:1, the Lord states: "Verily thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Lyman: Your sins are forgiven you, because you have obeyed my voice in coming up hither this morning to receive counsel of him whom I have appointed." Said Brigham Young, "I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture." (JD 13:95.)" (Following the Brethren, Speeches By Mormon Apostles Ezra Taft Benson and Bruce R. McConkie, March 1980. Full speech online at the following link: Following the Brethren).

Furthermore, the popular, and widely distributed, LDS Church manual Gospel Principles clearly states that the inspired words of the living prophet are supposed to be accepted as scripture by Latter-day Saints. (Gospel Principles, p. 55).

Another objection that some members of the Mormon Church may bring against the words of past LDS leaders is that it was all in the past and that the Church has moved on since then. But the problem with this view is that the entire existence of the Mormon Church is based on the historical events that it appeared in in the early 19th century. Also, modern officially endorsed Mormon publications such as the books in the series entitled: Teachings of the Presidents of the Church, contain prolific quotes from early Mormon publications. So past LDS leaders are still influencing modern Mormons even though the quotes that are given are given selectively.

The conclusion of all this is that it is too easy for Mormons to brush aside something uncomfortable that they might hear from a Mormon leader as "just his opinion", but the truth is that the words of these leaders do carry great weight and influence over the rank and file. In addition to this, as the quotations in this brief article demonstrate, there are Mormon leaders who feel that writings and speeches by Mormon leaders are authoritative even though they may not be contained in the Standard Works.



This article was written by, © Spotlight Ministries, Vincent McCann, 2004
spotlightministries I was granted permission by Vincent to post this article. You can talk with vince over at the Reachouttrust board, as His website is not set up for talking or replys. reachouttrust

Joseph Smith's Bible (part 2)

Hello Every one,
Well Here is my reply for part 2. GRORC asked about Different translations of the Bible. Here is a link that gives information about the Bible, If you have questions on this blog site and what was posted, please ask him, he knows I provide a link and looks forward to questions.manuscripts In a little more general sense, I believe some translations are created simply to make money. Is that wrong? Yes I believe marketing the gospel is wrong. But some translations were created because not everyone has the time to learn Greek, Hebrew, Latin or other languages. But to be fair, JS did teach the German translation was more accurate, So why don't the LDS use the German translation instead of the KJV?

Briefly take the KJV of the Bible, honestly some people have a hard time reading the old KJV, And all of the Thee's and Thou's Etc. So they made things like the NKJV. But for the LDS who might want to argue that these are not valid or Good, I would ask this, Why do the LDS read the NKJV, or the NiV, or other translations? If you think they Don't, go to the fairlds board and ask the LDS over there, they have mentioned using them many times.

Now onto the JST. Grorc said... The LDS church publishes and uses the JST translation of the Bible. Almost every member has one. I don't understand your statement to the contrary.

The reason I said what I did is this: as a general statement, the LDS members do not use the JST. As to the LDS church publishing the JST, Unless things have changed over the years, The RLDS publish the JST and Not the LDS Church. Now here are some things that I find to be problems, either with the JST or the LDS Church's use and lack of use of it, or how they word things about it. Example, some LDS feel it was a completed finished piece of work, others do not. If the LDS cannot agree as to the JST being finished or not, how can I trust it or the LDS church to get their facts correct in other areas. Also LDS members do not Accept the RLDS church as being an LDS Church. They feel the RLDS Church are nothing more than an Apostate Church. If the LDS do not Accept the RLDS Church and do view them as being Apostate or wrong in many areas, why would God tell JS to "Correct" the Bible, only to allow it to be "recorruputed" By going to any other Church than the true Church?

I am posting a Scanned Copy from the JoD vol 3, It shows BY saying the Bible is good enough just as it is. It is dated 1855, this is well after the death of JS and well after the JST was supposedly finished. So the Question is this, If JS was a "True Prophet" Of God and God told JS to Correct, alter or Fix the JS bible in any way, Why is BY downplaying it by not using it, making mention of it and even saying the Bible is Good enough as is?






Another question would be, if the Bible is not Correct in what it teaches and cannot fully be trusted to the Point where JS needed to "Correct" or "Retranslate" The Bible, Why does Jesus and the apostles Quote from it? Granted only the Old Testement was around when they Quoted from it, But JS Did "Correct" Portions of the OT. So why did God wait almost 2,000 years for JS to be born to correct the error, when Jesus or the Disciples could have corrected it?

Now when I said in part one, the LDS do not use the JST, And GRORC stated he owns a copy and uses it, I say, Good for you. But the truth is, Not every LDS owns a copy or uses it. I have NEVER in my life meet one LDS missionary who has come to my house and Bring a JST with them and use only that in place of the "Corrupted" KJV. And the TV ads only offer the KJV, Not the JST. I spent two weeks in SLC taking the entire temple tour and walking the Streets talking to people, toured the book store, looked over the Books and Bibles and BoM laying around at tables throughout the temple area for people to pick up and read, and guess what? Not once did I ever see a JST of the Bible lying around.

About 2 years ago I purposely went through Official LDS books I own, Every time I came across a Scripture that an LDS prophet, President or even Just the average Joe Mormon when they quoted or used a scripture, I looked to see whether it was the "Corrupted" and untrustworthy KJV, Or whether it was the Corrected JST. Guess what? For almost every 10 scriptures I found, maybe one was the JST, The rest were KJV. Why?

I will do this again when I get time and Document every source right down to the page number, so people can see for themselves, That the LDS tend to use the KJV or the Inspired version. So much for God Commanding JS to "Correct" a flawed Bible.

Here is something I find funny. LDS claim we must perform "Works" To help in our salvation. I claim Grace alone not works, So in the book Evidences and Reconciliations, pg 353-354 we read

It is not really correct to say that the prophet translated the Bible. Rather, he corrected errors in the Bible, and under revelation added long statements.

So either the LDS author is correct and JS "corrected" the Bible, or the Author is wrong and he must have learned this from the LDS he sits under. Also as an LDS he is simply not able to just write a book and produce it with out first having it examined. Now I point this out for this reason, in the KJV of the Bible, we read in Romans 3:28

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Now we read in the JST in Romans 3:28

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith ALONE without the deeds of the law.

We read in the JST of romans, only one word was added to that passage to supposedly correct it, the word ALONE. Houston, we have a problem. Either we are saved by grace alone, or we are saved by grace, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO. Yet God supposedly told JS to correct the Bible, LDS Member GRORC seems to agree he did, yet this denies what he has been saying.

Another problem we have is this, JS claims that the book of Malachi is "correct" yet the angel Moroni quotes it differently. Joseph Smith history 1:36-39. So is the Prophet correct, or the Angel who told JS about the golden plates correct?

Another problem we read is this, As I quoted in part one, from the D and C, God Supposedly told JS and Sidney Rigdon to complete the JST of the Bible. But we read in the Preface to the JST it is possibly not complete. LDS over on the Fairlds board will tell you it is not complete. Where are the LDS that feel it is not complete getting there information? We read in the 1993-94 Church Almanac pg 339 under July 2 The prophet Joseph Smith finished the translation of the Bible

Then in the 2003 Church Almanac 536 again under July 2, it states JS finished the New Testament.
But sadly, the Prophet and President Joseph F. Smith feels it was not finished.

The reason that it has not been published by the Church is due to the fact that this revision was not completed...due to persecution and mobbing this opportunity never came, so that the manuscript was left with only a partial version.

Then we read in the JST pg 11

Changes made at some points in the inspired version were not followed consistently.... Some passages were corrected, but the parallel references were not corrected....Mormon authors Sperry and Van Wagoner have pointed out that the Psalms are evidence of the incompleteness of the translation.

We read in Times and Seasons Vol VI pg 802 that the JST was completed.

Why is it if the JST is not really complete, have any of the so called "prophets of god" Corrected it. If it really is fully and truly corrected, why not fully use, promote and endorse it? If as these people and sources are correct, and the JST of the Bible is not complete, then God must be a failure, because not only did he commanded JS to finish the job, but this denies the teaching of 1 Nephi 3:7

7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

Kind of strange, that the BoM claims God will not command you to do something unless He makes it possible for you to do it. But then Commands JS to COMPLETE the JST of the Bible, then allows JS to fail. Even Bruce M claims in the book Mormon Doctrine pg.383 claims the JST is not complete. Rick b

Joseph Smith's Bible (part 1)

My next Topic will be about the (Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible) JST. I will lay out what I see are problems with this book and the Church both using it and not using it.

First off, lets start with JS and HIS Bible. If you read the Articles of Faith (A of F) number 8, it says,

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

First problem is, The LDS do not fully trust the Bible as being both accurate or the Word of God. Now we read in the Doctrine and Covenants (D and C) Chapter 71 in the heading above that chapter.

SECTION 71
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Sidney Rigdon, at Hiram, Ohio, December 1, 1831. HC 1: 238–239. The Prophet had continued to translate the Bible with Sidney Rigdon as his scribe until this revelation was received, at which time it was temporarily laid aside so as to enable them to fulfill the instruction given herein. The brethren were to go forth to preach in order to allay the unfriendly feelings that had developed against the Church as a result of the publication of some newspaper articles by Ezra Booth, who had apostatized.

Then we read in D and C chapter 73

Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Sidney Rigdon, at Hiram, Ohio, January 10, 1832. HC 1: 241–242. Since the early part of the preceding December, the Prophet and Sidney had been engaged in preaching, and by this means much was accomplished in diminishing the unfavorable feelings that had arisen against the Church (see heading to Section 71).
1–2, Elders are to continue to preach; 3–6, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon are to continue to translate the Bible until it is finished.

1 For verily, thus saith the Lord, it is expedient in me that they should continue preaching the gospel, and in exhortation to the churches in the regions round about, until conference;

2 And then, behold, it shall be made known unto them, by the voice of the conference, their several missions.

3 Now, verily I say unto you my servants, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, saith the Lord, it is expedient to translate again;

4 And, inasmuch as it is practicable, to preach in the regions round about until conference; and after that it is expedient to continue the work of translation until it be finished.

5 And let this be a pattern unto the elders until further knowledge, even as it is written.

6 Now I give no more unto you at this time. Gird up your loins and be sober. Even so. Amen.

Please remember, both while reading what I write now and when and if you ever talk to the LDS about this, the Heading above the Chapter 73 says, They were to finish the translation. This is very important for the reason of, many LDS have told me and do teach, that JS never finished the Translation. You can go to the LDS fair boards and either talk about the JST and you will have LDS tell you JS never finished or you can look up under my user name (rick b)fairlds and read all of my talks as they arcive everything. The link provide will take you to all of my posts, you can read over the pages and look up the talks on the JST and after you click on them you can read what everyone else said. I talked with LDS on the FairLDS board who told me JS never finished his work of translation.

This is a very serious problem, which I will cover. Lets look at D and C 76:15

15 For while we were doing the work of atranslation, which the Lord had appointed unto us

And D and C 93:53

53 And, verily I say unto you, that it is my will that you should hasten to translate my scriptures, and to obtain a knowledge of history, and of countries, and of kingdoms, of laws of God and man, and all this for the salvation of Zion. Amen.

Now if you see TV, or book or web ad's for the LDS offering a BoM or even a Bible, they NEVER offer you a JST of the Bible. And when you speak with them and they quote from the Bible, you will notice they almost never quote from the JST of the Bible. I would really have to Ask and I guess I am going to ask, If JS really is a prophet of God, The lds is the True Church and God really did tell JS to translate the Bible, Why do the LDS not use it or pass it out?

I will give what I believe are some reasons why. First, JS is nothing more than a false prophet who came as a wolf in sheep's clothing. But the LDS don't believe this, so hear are some reasons I have heard given by them over the years. When JS was killed in the jail, Brigham Young took over as the next president of the LDS church. Depending on who you talk to or believe for that matter, there was a split in the Church, we had the LDS who followed BY, and the RLDS who followed Joseph Smith's son.

The rlds at the time believed Joseph Smiths son was ment to be the next President of the LDS Church, not BY. Joseph's Wife, Lucy, followed her son. She owned the copy of the JST of the Bible. BY wanted it, but lucy would not give it up. So finally BY dismissed it as flawed. Now the LDS claim the RLDS own the rights to the book.

I have to ask these questions, If the LDS really believe the Church fell into a total aposaty, and the Bible is not accurate, and God clearly told JS to translate the Bible again, As was clearly laid out, why would God allow one group to own the copy rights on His word and theirfore the Church that WAS supposed to have it and use it, see it basicly fall into a some what corrputed state again?

I happen to own a copy of the JST of the Bible, and when you read in the preface of the JST of the Bible, it states, ( "Completion" Possibly not final).





More to come in part two, Rick b

3 Heavens (Part 2)

My topic on part two to the 3 heavens issue will focus on what the Bible says and does not say.

Look over part 1 and see who gets let into the First heaven.

People who will attain the telestial kingdom in the afterlife include those "who received not the gospel of Christ, nor the testimony of Jesus" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:82) as well as "liars, and sorcerors, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie"

Notice, According to the Bible, these people will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God or Heaven.

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Even the BoM never mentions these 3 different heavens or who will enter them.
Sadly the LDS build an entire doctrine around a verse or two from the BIble yet simply cannot support the view they believe from the Bible.

Do a word search on HEAVEN or HEAVEN(S) Not once in the Bible or BoM will you find a break down of these three heavens and who will go to each one. The LDS use the verses in the BIble, I Cor. 15:39-41 and teach the three degrees of glory or three heavens. But these verses do not give a definition of who goes where, only talks about three heavens. And the LDS take them out of context to build there doctrine.

1Cr 15:39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.

1Cr 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.

1Cr 15:41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.

However, the context in I Cor. 15:35-54 is not about heavens, but about the difference between our earthly mortal body and our new immortal body given us at the resurrection. Celestial and terrestrial bodies are mentioned in v. 40, but any dictionary will show that celestial means "heavenly" and terrestrial means "earthly."

Dictionary.com Defines Celestial as

ce·les·tial (s-lschl) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "celestial" [P]
adj.

1. Of or relating to the sky or the heavens: Planets are celestial bodies.
2. Of or relating to heaven; divine: celestial beings.
3. Supremely good; sublime: celestial happiness.
4. Celestial Of or relating to the Chinese people or to the former Chinese Empire.

And Terrestrial as

ter·res·tri·al (t-rstr-l) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "Terrestrial" [P]
adj.

1. Of or relating to the earth or its inhabitants.
2. Having a worldly, mundane character or quality.
3. Of, relating to, or composed of land.
4. Biology. Living or growing on land; not aquatic: a terrestrial plant or animal.

The word "telestial" is not found in I Cor. 15 because it was concived in the mind of Joseph Smith and can only be found in Mormon teachings. The glory of the sun, moon, and stars in v. 41 is used by LDS to support their beliefe of three heavens, but the context refers to "bodies," not heavens.

Lets make things even more confusing by adding what Bruce M taught.

Apostle Bruce McConkie says, "Even those in the Celestial Kingdom, however, who do not go on to exaltation, will have immortality only and not eternal life... Salvation in its true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the Celestial Kingdom.... This full salvation is obtained in and through the continuation of the family unit in eternity and those who obtain it are gods" (M.D., p. 670). Latter-day apostles, prophets and scripture certainly have not helped the LDS to clarify their doctrines! The B. of M., which is the "Fulness of the gospel" (D. & C. 20:9), does not even mention the three degrees of glory, heavens or kingdoms!

And Bruce's view does not line up and cannot be supported by the Bible.
We also read, LDS believe all will have immortality or resurrection, but only LDS can have eternal life and enter the Celestial Kingdom (G.T.A., p. 166). The very best Mormons will gain "eternal lives" or inherit the highest possible position in that celestial kingdom.

LDS believe that there are three degrees or levels within the Celestial Kingdom. While LDS "baptism is the gate to the Celestial Kingdom, Celestial Marriage is the gate to an exaltation in the highest heaven within the Celestial World" (M.D. p. 118).

Let me end with some things the BoM or the Bible does not teach, but LDS Teach or believe we must do to enter the Higest heaven. This shows how hard it will be to be saved.

According to mormonism the Temple is of the utmost importance, But they seem to forget to tell you what you must do to be able to enter.

Prophet Spencer Kimball Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. he gives a list of 6 things called (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). it says When you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,

1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.

In Gospel Principles pg 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. we are not repentant if we don't sustain the authorities of the church and don't love the lord and our fellow man.

Add to that also pg 241 Eternal marriage is ESSENTIAL FOR EXALTATION. Our exaltation depends on marriage. then over on pg 242 it says "and in order to obtain the highest, a man MUST ENTER INTO THIS ORDER OF THE PRIESTHOOD [MEANING THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT OF MARRIAGE];" "and if he does not, he cannot obtain it" (D and C 131:1-3) Rick B

3 Heavens. (Part 1)

In part one here, I am simply laying out what the 3 different heavens are according to LDS beliefes. I will go into detail in part two as to why I believe these are in error and a false Doctrine.


Telestial Kingdom
The telestial kingdom is the lowest of the three degrees of glory, in which the highest or celestial kingdom is compared to the sun, the middle or terrestrial kingdom is compared to the moon, and the lowest or telestial kingdom is compared to the stars. According to the Church's interpretation, the Bible also indicates that these three kingdoms are connected with the resurrection of the dead (1 Corinthians 15:40-42). Also, "in addition to the degrees of glory, there is a place of no glory, called perdition (or "outer darkness"), reserved for those who commit the unpardonable sin." (Bible Dictionary: Degrees of Glory)

People who will attain the telestial kingdom in the afterlife include those "who received not the gospel of Christ, nor the testimony of Jesus" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:82) as well as "liars, and sorcerors, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:103). These people, who will rise in the second resurrection, must first suffer for their sins in the Spirit Prison (similar to the Catholic concept of Purgatory - see Common Latter-day Saint perceptions) until the Last Judgement, at which time they will be assigned to the telestial kingdom, for they are identified as "heirs of salvation" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:88). However, the telestial kingdom is not unpleasant: "the glory of the telestial...surpasses all understanding" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:89).


Terrestrial Kingdom
The Terrestrial Kingdom is the middle of three "degrees of glory," in which the highest or Celestial Kingdom is compared to the sun, the middle or Terrestrial Kingdom is compared to the moon,[1] and the lowest or Telestial Kingdom is compared to the stars. The terminology is also used in 1 Corinthians 15:40. Also, "in addition to the degrees of glory, there is a place of no glory, called perdition, reserved for those who commit the unpardonable sin." (Bible Dictionary: Degrees of Glory)

Persons who will attain the Terrestrial Kingdom in the afterlife, according to the Church's teachings, include those who lived respectably but "were blinded by the craftiness of men" and "were not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" while on Earth or those who would did not do enough to search out the truth before their death but who have accepted it in the post-mortal realm (this latter doctrine being emphatically rejected by virtually all other Christian polities).

In the Terrestrial Kingdom, God the Father does not come, but Jesus Christ visits, and the Holy Ghost dwells with the inhabitants.


Celestial Kingdom
In Mormonism, the Celestial Kingdom is the highest of what are believed to be three heavens or heavenly kingdoms, or degrees of glory. It is thought to be the "third heaven" referred to in 2 Corinthians 12:2 of the Bible, and it is also thought to correspond to the "celestial bodies" mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:40 (King James Version). The Latin word celestial means "heavenly".

According to this doctrine, only those who attain the Celestial Kingdom will be united with their families in the eternities. It will be the residence of those who have been righteous, accepted the Gospel (Mormonism) and its ordinances and covenants, and lived their lives in harmony with their covenants or received the ordinances and covenants with all their hearts in the spirit world.

“They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given--That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.” (Doctrine and Covenants, 76:51-53)

Children who die before the age of eight all qualify for the Celestial Kingdom in the afterlife, as well as those who did not have the chance to receive the gospel in this life, but do in the post-mortal spirit world (see Baptism for the dead). Persons who reach maturity and receive full gospel teachings in this life will only be judged by God to be worthy of the Celestial Kingdom if they have received all required ordinances (baptism, endowment, and sealing if they are married), repented of their sins, and endured to the end through retaining their conversion. Some rebellious children of righteous parents may, like Alma the Younger in the Book of Mormon, receive a spiritual awakening in this life or in the spirit world whereby they finally understand and embrace the teachings of their parents and the atonement of Jesus Christ. (Alma 36:5-24)

The Celestial Kingdom is the residence of God the Father and Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost dwells there. Those who are worthy to dwell in the Celestial Kingdom will be exalted, and become God-like.

Smith taught that the Earth will receive a celestial glory. Because of this, many Mormons believe that the Earth will be the Celestial Kingdom, or a Celestial World within the Celestial Kingdom, for Humans who lived on the Earth and qualified for Celestial glory.

Original Sin

My next Topic will be on the issue of Original Sin.

The LDS deny this and call it a Theory. I will point out some of the sources they use to teach this and I will show from the Bible why I believe they are wrong, plus I will add my own thoughts on this subject.

First the LDS quote from the Articles of faith They quote Number 2 which says,

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

The first Question I would ask is this, If A of F 2 states Men will be punished for their own sins, and we are not sinners because of Adam, then where does or did our sinful nature come from?

I read in the BoM in Ether 3:2

O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods. Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires.

Seems to me, the BoM implys the fact we have a fallen nature by way of Adam.

Then they use Moses 6:53-55

53 And our father Adam spake unto the Lord, and said: Why is it that men must repent and be baptized in water? And the Lord said unto Adam: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden.

54 Hence came the saying abroad among the people, that the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world.

55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

Now we read in verse 55 that Sin Conceiveth in the hearts of the Kids. How is it if they are not stained by the fall of Adam that sin can just simply be there. Again where does this sinful nature come from if not from the fall of Adam?


We read in Moroni 8:8

8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

Just a side note here, the way Moroni 8:8 starts sounds a lot like these verses here,

Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luk 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Many people claim the BoM was simply copied in many spots word for word from the Bible. Do what ever you want with this info.

I want to know focus on this here,

wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

1. If the curse is removed from kids, then Yet again, how do they have sin in them when they grow up past the age of 8 years old

2. If the law of Circumcision is/has been done away with, Why is it mentioned through out the entire old testment as a law and Moses was almost killed for not doing it, His wife had to come to his rescue?


Now lets look at some verses from the Bible that teach we are all sinful.

Romans 5:8-14 says

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Death in Adam, Life in Christ
(Gen. 3:1-19)

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

We also read in

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

You can also read much in the Old Testement About the Priests Laying Hands upon animles to tranfer our sins to them, then they are put to death and not us. Read Hebrews chapters 9 and 10. Rick B