works and the law, part 1

I am going to cover the issue of keeping the law and needing works to help in our salvation. I am thinking I will do this in 3 parts. So if your question is not covered in the part I have posted, and you ask, well what about this verse, whatever that verses is, I might tell you that will be adressed in the next part. But others are more than welcome to adresse it right then and their.

Lets start with what the LDS church teaches about these things. Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie, salvation must be understood in light of these two definitions:

1. "Unconditional or general salvation, that which comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected. In this sense salvation is synonymous with immortality; it is the inseparable connection of body and spirit so that the resurrected personage lives forever."
2. "Conditional or individual salvation, that which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience, consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one's mortal probation" (Mormon Doctrine pp. 669-670).

McConkie Also said

"those who gain only this general or unconditional salvation will still be judged according to their works and receive their places in a terrestrial or a telestial kingdom. They will, therefore be damned." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 669).

On pages 211-212 of his book The Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer Kimball the LDS PROPHET chastised members who

"are doing nothing seriously wrong except in their failures to do the right things to earn their salvation".

Bruce McConkie goes on to say again,

"Salvation grows automatically out of the resurrection, and the coming forth in the resurrection constitutes the receipt of whatever degree of salvation has been earned." (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 1:196).

Then in volume three of the same set, he wrote,

"Salvation is free,' but it must also be purchased; and the price is obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (3:461).

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism states that

"for repentance to be complete, one must abandon the sinful behavior...Failure to alter outward actions means that the sinner has not repented, and the weight of the former sin returns" (3:1217).

Spencer Kimball teaches,

"discontinuance of sin must be permanent"

(The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 176).


President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote,

"To enter the celestial and obtain exaltation it is necessary that the whole law be kept...Do you desire to enter the celestial Kingdom and receive eternal life? Then be willing to keep all of the commandments." (The Way to Perfection, pg. 206).

Mormonism teaches that this lifetime is a probation period. Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie stated:

"One of the great purposes of this mortal probation is to test and try men, to see if they will keep the commandments and walk in the light no matter what environmental enticements beckon them away from the straight and narrow path" (Mormon Doctrine, pg.229).

The purpose of this lifetime is for the Mormon to prove himself worthy of exaltation. To fail in that capacity will result in never reaching that celestial goal.

President Joseph Fielding Smith said

if they rebelled and refused to comply with the laws and ordinances which were provided for their salvation, it would deny them the great gift and they would be assigned, after the resurrection, to some inferior sphere according to their works. (Doctrines of Salvation 1:69)

This agrees with Alma 34:32-33,

"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors... And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed."

It seems clear that while some Mormons feel they can get things right after death, this is not supported by LDS teaching.

Tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith said compliance with the law, not willingness, was necessary to obtain Godhood.

"This mortal probation was to be a brief period, just a short span linking the eternity past with the eternity future. Yet it was to be a period of tremendous importance. It would either give to those who received it the blessing of eternal life, which is the greatest gift of God, and thus qualify them for godhood as sons and daughters of our Eternal Father, or, if they rebelled and refused to comply with the laws and ordinances which were provided for their salvation, it would deny them the great gift and they would be assigned, after the resurrection, to some inferior sphere according to their works. This life is the most vital period in our eternal existence (Doctrines of Salvation 1:69).

The Book of Mormon teaches,

"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors" (Alma 34:32).

Spencer Kimball teaches, a mere willingness to try to overcome sinful tendencies is not enough. He asserted,

"Trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin."

He went on to say, "To 'try' is weak. To 'do the best I can' is not strong. We must always do better than we can" (Miracle, pp.164-165).

It appers as if Grace plus works, after all we can do, is simply impossible, or very close to it, Look at how Tenth Mormon President Joseph Fielding Smith does not offer a lot of hope for many professing Latter-day Saints when he said,

"There will not be such an overwhelming number of the Latter-day Saints who will get there" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:15).

Smith agreed with Apostle Francis M. Lyman's assessment that "if we save one-half of the Latter-day Saints, that is, with an exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God, we will be doing well."

Bruce McConkie said that damnation will affect many types of individuals. On pages 176-177 of his book Mormon Doctrine, he stated that damnation will be experienced by those who are sons of perdition. On page 746 of the same book he describes sons of perdition as Lucifer, the demons (Mormonism teaches that the demons are God's spirit-children who chose to follow Lucifer in the "war in heaven"), and "those who have a perfect knowledge of the divinity of the gospel cause...then link themselves with Lucifer and come out in open rebellion."

Then, McConkie expands the definition of damnation to also include "those who fail to gain an inheritance in the celestial kingdom" as well as those "who fail to gain exaltation in the highest heaven within the celestial world, even though they do gain a celestial mansion in one of the lower heavens of that world" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 176).


Lots of mormons have told me that if they die and only enter the first or second heaven they will have a chance to still move up to the 3rd heaven. Not so according to these guys. 10th President Joseph Fielding Smith said,

"It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory? The answer to this question is, No! The scriptures are clear on this point" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:31).

Doctrine and Covenants 25:15 says

"Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come."

Some Questions to think about?

* Joseph Smith said that a person "would get nearer to God by abiding by [the Book of Mormon's] precepts than by any other book" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 194). Just what are those "precepts" from the Book of Mormon that God wants you to follow that cannot be found in other books like the Bible?

* Alma 11:37 says that "no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven"? Are you clean? How did you get that way? And how long does this cleansing last?

* Alma 11:37 also says that, as a Mormon, you "cannot be saved in your sins." D&C 1:31 adds that God cannot "look upon sin with the least degree of allowance." Do you struggle with sin? If so, can it be assumed that you are not saved?

* As a Mormon I am sure you take repentance very seriously. However, on page 67 of the LDS Church manual Gospel Fundamentals it states, "Our Father in heaven does not sin, and He does not allow people who sin to live with Him. To live with Him we must repent of our sins. To repent means to feel sorry for our sins and stop doing them." Have you stopped sinning? If not, how can you be sure you will live eternally with Heavenly Father? If the above statement is true, doesn't the fact you continually repent, prove you are not truly repentant; after all, people who stop sinning have no need to repent.

* D&C 25:15 says that unless a person keeps the commandments "continually," he cannot go where God is. Do you keep the commandments continually? If not, where do Mormons like you go when they die?

* If you cannot say that you do keep the commandments "continually," then how do you explain 1 Nephi 3:7 where it says, "For I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them"?

* Isaiah 44:6,8 says that there is no God beside the God of the Bible and that this God does not know of any other gods. If this is Jesus (Jehovah) speaking—as attested to by such LDS leaders as Apostle Bruce McConkie (The Promised Messiah, p.312)—does that mean Jesus does not know His own Father? If you were to actually become a god, would God know you?

* In Alma 11:26-29 Amulek tells Zeezrom that there is only one "true and living God." If that is true, which of the three Gods in the Mormon godhead is not true and/or living? God the Father? Jesus? Or the Holy Ghost?

* If we are to believe that the Nephites are truly ancient "Mormons," where in the Book of Mormon does it say they held the Melchizedek priesthood? Where does it say they practiced baptism for the dead? Or believe that men can become Gods? How about God having a body of flesh and bones? What about the existence of a "heavenly mother"? Where does it say that all humans existed prior to this earthly existence? Or how Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?

* D&C 88:22 says that only those who abide a celestial law can hope to achieve the celestial kingdom. Are you keeping celestial law?

* If the "decrees of God are unalterable" (Alma 41:8), why has your church made so many corrections over the years (i.e. Declarations 1 and 2, changes in the temple endowment ceremony, changes in the birth control doctrine, etc.)?

* Your leaders have taught that salvation comes by faith and works. If this is true, then why did Joseph Smith insert the word "alone" into Romans 3:28 of his Inspired Version (a.k.a. the Joseph Smith Translation) of the Bible? (It reads, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law.")

* Joseph Smith inserted the word not in Romans 4:5 of the Inspired Version so that it reads, "...who justifieth not the ungodly..." Are you "godly"? If so, how did you get that way? If not, doesn't that mean you are not justified before God? Why would God need to justify a godly person anyway?

* President Brigham Young concluded his Adam-God sermon with these words: "Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation" (Journal of Discourses 1:51). Do you believe Adam is God? If not, aren't you treating these "doctrines" lightly or with indifference"? Wasn't Spencer Kimball treating Young's teaching with indifference when he called it a "false doctrine" (Church News 10/9/76)? If Young was correct, will Kimball be damned? If Kimball was correct, doesn't this prove LDS prophets can teach false doctrine?

* Alma 10:3 states that Lehi "was a descendant of Manasseh." If Indians are really descendants of Lehi and his son Laman, why does DNA deny any link between Indians and Lehi's Jewish heritage?

* Joseph Smith said, "We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345). But the Book of Mormon says in Moroni 8:18, "For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity." Did God change? Or was He always God?

* President Brigham Young and other LDS leaders taught that those who were not valiant in the preexistence were marked in mortality with a "flat nose and black skin." (See Journal of Discourses 7:290, The Way to Perfection, p.101, Answers to Gospel Questions 2:175, Mormon Doctrine, p.527.) Since it was this mark that would help distinguish who was not eligible to receive the priesthood, why do some people still bear the mark even though the priesthood ban was lifted in 1978?

* Presidents Brigham Young and Wilford Woodruff both taught that God is progressing in knowledge (Journal of Discourses 11:286, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p.3). Yet President Joseph Fielding Smith said that "this kind of doctrine is very dangerous" (Doctrines of Salvation 1:8). Which prophet was telling the truth?

* When asked in a Time magazine interview if God the Father was once a man, President Gordon Hinckley said, "I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it..." (8/4/97, p. 56). Was he telling the truth?

* Are you "sufficiently humble" and "stripped of pride"? If not, Alma 5:27,28 says you are not prepared to die. If you think you are, doesn't this prove you're not?

* Apostle Bruce R. McConkie said "a man may be damned for a single sin" (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary 3:257). Can you account for every single sin you have ever committed?

* President Spencer Kimball said that only those who are "living all the commandments" are guaranteed "total forgiveness of sins" and assured of "exaltation" (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.208). Are you living all of the commandments? If not, how can you be sure you are forgiven?

* Spencer Kimball also taught that "each command we obey sends us another rung up the ladder to perfected manhood and toward godhood; and every law disobeyed is a sliding toward the bottom where man merges into the brute world" (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.133). How tall is this proverbial ladder? And which rung are you on?

* President Joseph F. Smith said, "...it is absolutely necessary for every man and woman in the Church of Christ to work righteousness, to observe the laws of God, and keep the commandments that He has given, in order that they may avail themselves of the power of God unto salvation in this life" (General Conference Report, October 1907, p.3) Yet Titus 3:5 states clearly that salvation is not gained by "works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy." How can salvation be wrought by God's mercy if you earned it through good works?

* In Ephesians 2:8,9 the Apostle Paul states, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." When Paul uses the word "saved," is he making a reference to a general resurrection or exaltation?

* The Apostle John stated, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13). If you were to die right now, do you know for certain if you will have eternal life? If not, when will you finally know? Wouldn't you like to have this issue settled before you die? Do you think you ever will if you remain in the Mormon Church?

The section I posted about questions to think about, was taken From the Mormonism researech minstry website. So the question I will ask is, Would you rather try keeping the entire law, or simply allow grace that God gives to save you? Rick b