5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.
7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.
Let me start by saying this, If anyone wants to follow a certain Diet, or eat or drink certain things and not others for any reason, Then good for you. But to say that if we eat certain foods God will not allow us into Heaven is a false teaching.
Lets first read what the Bible teaches on this subject.
In Acts 10 we read about God telling peter to kill and eat.
Act 10:10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
Act 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Act 10:15 And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.
Act 10:16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
Another list of verses we read is
Mat 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:21 [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.
1Cr 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
1Cr 9:4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?
1Cr 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
1Ti 3:8 Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Tts 2:3 The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things.
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Luk 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Mar 2:22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.
Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
Ok, I gave a list of verses that show God, Jesus and the apostles Drank Wine and do not condemn the drinking of any beverage. For all the people that want to claim the wine Jesus drank was non-alcoholic
then I must ask this, Why was Jesus accused of being a drunk? You cannot be accused of being a drunk if you drink grape juice. And I might add if wine does not contain alcohol why not simply call it grape Juice. Plus the fact Jesus used the example of new wine bursting old wine skins shows that the wine is fermennting, theirfore it does contain Alcohol.
I would ask this also, Why would God or the Bible provide verses that allow people to drink and include wine, and never mention the fact that if you do this you cannot enter the 3rd heaven, But years later God changes his mind and will keep you out of heaven for drinking something?
I would like to point out also and ask a question. How do we go from HOT DRINKS to this means Coffee or Tea, but Not Hot Chocolate, soup broth, warm to hot milk? The WOW does not define Hot Drinks as Coffee or Tea, so how come we cannot drink cold coffeee or cold tea, if the Hot Drinks is not clearly defined as such?
I have heard mormons claims we cannot drink Coffee or tea because of Caffine, So I must ask, if this is the reason, then why is it ok for Mormons to Drink Hot Chocolate or soda that contains Caffine or even eat a chocolate Candy bar or use medicane that contains Caffine? If it is an issue of Caffine, how come we then cannot drink Caffine free Tea? I know a few LDS who Claim Hot Chocolate was not around in JS day, that was why it was not included. But According to History of Hot Chocolate it has been around since the 1500's and was even around in the 1800's. Odds are pretty Good it was around in JS day. History of Hot Chocolate
Her are some ,more problems I have with the Word of Wisdom.
The Prophet Spencer Kimball Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. he gives a list of 6 things called (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). it says When you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,
1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.
Notice it says "Obedience to the Word of Wisdom." Yet Many LDS members do not follow this. Also we read in Gospel Principles pg 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. we are not repentant if we don't sustain the authorities of the church and don't love the lord and our fellow man. Yet again many LDS do not meet this requirement.
Here is an intersting little problem I find. We read in the Teachings of the PJS.
it is shown that, on May 28, 1837, it was"resolved unanimously, that we will not fellowship any ordained member who will not, or does not, observe the Word of Wisdom according to its literal reading." According to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, "In the mid-1830s, many Church members felt that abstinence from alcohol, tobacco, tea, and coffee was a criterion for fellowship. The one possible exception to this otherwise strict interpretation was wine, which some early Church leaders may not have considered 'strong drink.' This early emphasis on abstinence or near abstinence failed to gain Church-wide or official acceptance, although Joseph Smith said no member 'is worthy to hold an office' who has been taught the Word of Wisdom and fails 'to comply with and obey it' (TPJS, p.117, fn.).
LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith said that a member could not hold a church office unless he abided by the Word of Wisdom. Smith writes this in Essentials in Church History: "One question considered was as follows: 'Whether disobedience to the word of wisdom was a transgression sufficient to deprive an official member from holding office in the Church, after having it sufficiently taught him?'' After a free and full discussion Joseph Smith, who presided, gave his decision as follows: 'No official member in this Church is worthy to hold an office after having the word of wisdom properly taught him; and he, the official member, neglecting to comply with or obey it.' This decision was confirmed by unanimous vote." pg 169
So why is it the LDS chuch Teaches no man can hold a postion of Athourity if he drinks, yet BY stated he made a still house to make whisky and sell it for money?
Added to the Fact that BY made and sold whisky, JS was the mayor and as a result was allowed to sell or give spirits of any quantity according to History of the Church Vol 6, And it appers he did just that. So your two Church Prophets sell, make and Drink Yet the rest of LDS will be denied heaven for drinking.
We Read this story in Alma 55:8-19
8 And when it was evening Laman went to the guards who were over the Nephites, and behold, they saw him coming and they hailed him; but he saith unto them: Fear not; behold, I am a Lamanite. Behold, we have escaped from the Nephites, and they sleep; and behold we have taken of their wine and brought with us.
9 Now when the Lamanites heard these words they received him with joy; and they said unto him: Give us of your wine, that we may drink; we are glad that ye have thus taken wine with you for we are weary.
10 But Laman said unto them: Let us keep of our wine till we go against the Nephites to battle. But this saying only made them more desirous to drink of the wine;
11 For, said they: We are weary, therefore let us take of the wine, and by and by we shall receive wine for our rations, which will strengthen us to go against the Nephites.
12 And Laman said unto them: You may do according to your desires.
13 And it came to pass that they did take of the wine freely; and it was pleasant to their taste, therefore they took of it more freely; and it was strong, having been prepared in its astrength.
14 And it came to pass they did drink and were merry, and by and by they were all adrunken.
15 And now when Laman and his men saw that they were all drunken, and were in a adeep sleep, they returned to Moroni and told him all the things that had happened.
16 And now this was according to the design of Moroni. And Moroni had prepared his men with weapons of war; and he went to the city Gid, while the Lamanites were in a deep sleep and drunken, and cast in aweapons of war unto the prisoners, insomuch that they were all armed;
17 Yea, even to their women, and all those of their children, as many as were able to use a weapon of war, when Moroni had armed all those prisoners; and all those things were done in a profound silence.
18 But had they awakened the Lamanites, behold they were drunken and the Nephites could have slain them.
19 But behold, this was not the desire of Moroni; he did not adelight in murder or bloodshed, but he delighted in the saving of his people from destruction; and for this cause he might not bring upon him injustice, he would not fall upon the Lamanites and destroy them in their drunkenness.
My point of this story is this, They used Wine, So Again, why would God allow wine for many years then all of a sudden change it? We even read Noah after the Flood made wine, Granted getting Drunk was a problem, But God never rebuked Noah for drinking.
Lastly, Again on the Issue of Tea and No Salvation,
LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote,
"SALVATION AND A CUP OF TEA. You cannot neglect little things. 'Oh, a cup of tea is such a little thing. It is so little; surely it doesn't amount to much; surely the Lord will forgive me if I drink a cup of tea.' …if you drink coffee or tea, or take tobacco, are you letting a cup of tea or a little tobacco stand inn the road and bar you from the celestial kingdom of God, where you might otherwise have received a fulness of glory?" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:16)
So According to J.F.S Are BY and Mormon Settlers missing out on salvation?
Read this.
Utah County
Thursday, April 6, 2006
Nice cup of 'Mormon tea' eased settlers' ailments
By Rodger L. Hardy
Deseret Morning News
PAYSON — There's plenty of information about the kind of tea early Utah settlers drank.
The tea may have passed through some of the tea sets at the Peteetneet Academy. The most common, "Mormon tea," came from "a branched broomlike shrub growing up to four feet tall, with slender, jointed stems. The leaves are reduced to scales and grow in opposite pairs or whorls of three and are fused for half their length. Male and female flowers are borne on separate plants in conelike structures. They are followed by small brown to black seeds."
Other common names included: "Brigham tea," "cowboy tea," "squaw tea" and "canyon tea."
The plant is in the Gnetaceae Genus Ephedra family. While it is a source of ephedra, it doesn't violate the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' Word of Wisdom. When the whole plant was used, no negative side effects were reported. In recent years, however, extracted ephedra has led to serious health problems.
Ephedra from the plant, which is found in the southwestern United States, isn't as potent as that from China and India. American Indians drank it to help stop bleeding.
The early settlers placed a handful of the stems in boiling water for each cup. After they removed the concoction from heat they would let it steep. Sometimes they sweetened it with sugar or jam.
Other settlers brewed a strong tea from the plant to treat syphilis and other venereal diseases and as a tonic.
Seeds from the plant were ground as bitter meal or used to flavor bread dough.
Known effects include:
• a stimulus to the central nervous system
• increased blood pressure
• increased heart rate
• increased urine to dispose of excess body fluid
• elevated mood
• decreased appetite
• lessened fatigue
It appers More LDS do not Follow the WoW and Jesus never laid this heavy burden upon any man. Rick B
11 comments:
The First Presidency declared: “Drunken with strong drink, men have lost their reason; their counsel has been destroyed; their judgment and vision are fled. … Drink has brought more woe and misery, broken more hearts, wrecked more homes, committed more crimes, filled more coffins, than all the wars the world has suffered” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1942, 8).
Each year tobacco use causes nearly 2.5 million premature deaths worldwide. Tobacco use also harms millions of innocent victims. For example, smoking by pregnant mothers passes on toxic chemicals that interfere with fetal development, afflicting approximately 3 million babies each year. These babies have lower birth weight and increased risk for neurological and intellectual delays and for premature death. Other innocent victims include nonsmokers who regularly inhale secondhand smoke. These people have much higher rates of respiratory illness and are three times more likely to die of lung cancer than those who do not inhale secondhand smoke. Smokeless tobacco is just as addictive as cigarettes, and users of smokeless tobacco have cancer rates up to fifty times higher than those who do not use tobacco. (See James O. Mason, “I Have a Question,” Ensign, Sept. 1986, 59–61.)
Elder Boyd K. Packer of the Quorum of the Twelve said: “I have come to know … that a fundamental purpose of the Word of Wisdom has to do with revelation. … If someone ‘under the influence’ [of harmful substances] can hardly listen to plain talk, how can they respond to spiritual promptings that touch their most delicate feelings? As valuable as the Word of Wisdom is as a law of health, it may be much more valuable to you spiritually than it is physically” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1979, 28–29; or Ensign, Nov. 1979, 20).
Consider the amount of land, money, and other resources that are used to produce harmful substances, advertise them, purchase them, and treat the consequences of their use. For example, in 1985 the cost in America of health care and lost productivity related to the use of tobacco was approximately $65 billion (see Ensign, Sept. 1986, 61). The costs of the production and use of alcohol are also very high. Consider the potential economic impact of using these resources for beneficial purposes rather than destructive ones.
This Word of Wisdom prohibits the use of hot drinks and tobacco. I have heard it argued that tea and coffee are not mentioned therein; that is very true; but what were the people in the habit of taking as hot drinks when that revelation was given? Tea and coffee. We were not in the habit of drinking water very hot, but tea and coffee—the beverages in common use (DBY, 182).
The Americans, as a nation, are killing themselves with their vices and high living. As much as a man ought to eat in half an hour they swallow in three minutes, gulping down their food like the [dog] under the table, which, when a chunk of meat is thrown down to it, swallows it before you can say “twice.” If you want a reform, carry out the advice I have just given you. Dispense with your multitudinous dishes, and, depend upon it, you will do much towards preserving your families from sickness, disease and death (DBY, 189).
A man who indulges in any habit that is pernicious to the general good in its example and influence, is not only an enemy to himself but to the community so far as the influence of that habit goes. A man who would not sacrifice a pernicious habit for the good it would do the community is, to say the least of it, lukewarm in his desires and wishes for public and general improvement (DBY, 186).
Rick said I have heard mormons claims we cannot drink Coffee or tea because of Caffine, So I must ask, if this is the reason... This is not the Doctrine of the Church. It is not because of the caffine. It's because of other harmful substances. So the remaining portion of the article dealing with caffine is irrelevant.
As far as the rest of this article, are you trying to teach that God does not have a problem with us using harmful substances in our bodies? That it's ok to lose control of our faculties? That it doesn't matter if we are healthy or not?
If you are not trying to teach that (those things that are in opposition to the Word of Wisdom), then what are you trying to say? The Word of Wisdom is designed to bless our lives and keep us healthy. Why would you attempt to teach something different? Why would you teach it's a heavy burden? Could it be because it's a weakness for you? Just because YOU think it's a heavy burden does not make it the Doctrine of Christ.
I would think a heavier burden would be killing somone in a drunk driving accident, then to not be able to drink alcohol. Anyone agree?
How to look like I'm not pimping for a link or a visit.
No way to.
I like your blog and was wondering if you would want to take part is something called the Carnival of the Veil? You can google it, or drop by my blog to give it a look.
http://tomanyquestions.blogspot.com/
If you want to participate, just drop me a line.
Thanks.
I never understood why, the church never produced its own wine for their sacrament. The early Mormons were very industrious especially when they first came to Utah and settled the land. They built granaries, lumber mills, and all types of business enterprises including owning a newspaper early on. Why did the church never produce a winery, as commanded in the Word of Wisdom, to make its own wine for the sacrament? Instead they have decided to use water only, no fruit of the vine, not even grape juice. This puzzled me even when I was an adherent to Mormonism.
Chuck, You said As far as the rest of this article, are you trying to teach that God does not have a problem with us using harmful substances in our bodies? That it's ok to lose control of our faculties? That it doesn't matter if we are healthy or not?
If you are not trying to teach that (those things that are in opposition to the Word of Wisdom), then what are you trying to say? The Word of Wisdom is designed to bless our lives and keep us healthy. Why would you attempt to teach something different? Why would you teach it's a heavy burden? Could it be because it's a weakness for you? Just because YOU think it's a heavy burden does not make it the Doctrine of Christ.
Chuck, to set the record straight, I do not Drink, so I am not trying to say lets drink because I do. As a matter of fact, I really hate Wine, the stuff is really nasty.
But just because someone drinks does not mean they are a drunk or will get drunk. As I said, Jesus drank wine and even Made wine. So why would Jesus drink and make it, then years later, over 2,000 years later give a command saying it is wrong?
You say people Use up lands to grow Tobbaco and make wine Etc, what about our wasting tons of land for the game of Golf? Now thats a watse of Land.
Then People are not Getting drunk or losing control of themselves Drinking Coffee or tea. Science is starting to prove that it has helth benfits. I also hate Tea. I am not trying to promote this stuff because I drink it.
I also suspect you did not read the very beggining of my post, I clearly stated, if you want to follow a spefic Diet, Go for it, Just dont make a law of something God did not. Then you ignored the Issue BY made Whisky and JS sold Wine and spirits. Rick b
You said You say people Use up lands to grow Tobbaco and make wine Etc, what about our wasting tons of land for the game of Golf? Now thats a watse of Land. It may be, but we are not talking about the waste of land for the sake of it being the waste of land. We are talking about things that are harmful to your body and how that land could be used for something beneficial. Even Golf would be better because of the exercise you get walking from hole to hole. Try to stay on topic.
You said Just dont make a law of something God did not. Hmmm... who are you talking to? This is what the bible teaches. Are you telling God to not make it a law?
Leviticus 10
9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
Judges 13
4 Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:
Numbers 6
3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.
Isaiah 5
22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
Daniel also found it important. (Daniel 1:8-16)
1 Cor. 3
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1 Cor. 6
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
This sounds like a law to me. It's in the Bible. Let's see how you will attempt to explain away the Bible this time.
I still do not know why you would agree that something is bad for you, but still insist that God doesn't care about how you treat your body.
Chuck, You said to me Try to stay on topic.
Something is really wrong with you, Honestly if you never replied again I would not mis you. Your one to talk about staying on Topic, In my very first Part, Did I not give a break down of what I will Cover in each part? Yes I did.
Did You ignore that? Maybe, otherwise you simply dont care. I stated that in part 3 I would cover the use of tabbaco and meat. You go of topic and bring these up in part 2 with a lenghty reply. Then you mention the waste of lands for Wine and tobbaco, I then mention the waste of land for a stupid game to which you say I am getting off topic.
I think you really need to think before you reply. As to Golf being a form of exercise, it is not if you cannot raise your heart rate and if you use a caddy to carry your clubs and use a cart to ride around in.
Now back onto the topic, you said This sounds like a law to me. It's in the Bible. Let's see how you will attempt to explain away the Bible this time.
I now know what your problem is, you dont understand your bible and you read what you want and ignore the full context.
For starts, when you quote a verse, either post it with others for context or read it fully before replying.
You quote Leviticus 10
9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
But if you read verse 8, The Lord is speaking to Arron, and his sons. Not every human. then When have you ever entered the tabernacle of the congregation? You have not. Plus you can quote all the OT dietary laws, but those were Given to the nation of Isreal not all of man kind. Their is a differeance between Jew and Gentile in the OT.
But read the account in the Book of Acts, It will be covered in part 3. God tells peter to kill and eat. God made all things (Food animales)
Clean. I will not go on with you here about this, if falls under part 3 and will be adressed their.
Read Again Judges 13, The angel is speaking to a spefic person about this, God is not saying this a law for all mankind.
You Quote Numbers 6. Again read for context, God speaks to Moses in verse one, in Verse two, God says WHO EVER TAKES THE Nazarite Vow. Did you take this Vow, By the way, that verse also condems Vinager, Do you use Vinegar at all in anything? Do you follow the 100's of OT dieatry laws? If not why not?
As to Isaiah, read the context, this does not speak to every man. Then about Danieal, He Chose to eat Healthy, God did not say Dan, I command you to tell everyone this is how they must eat.
I notice you Quote Cor, and mention Drunkerds. Did I say It was ok to get Drunk? No I stated it is ok to have a drink, but not get drunk, not everyone who drinks, gets drunk. LDS prophets BY and JS made and Drank lots of Spirits, are you implying they were drunks because they drank? If you say no, then you seem to imply everyone else who drinks must be getting drunk.
Then all these verses you quote about not drinking from the OT, and claim they are a law from God, then how do you explain the fact Jesus drank wine and turned water into wine. If you say, it did not contain Alcohol, then explain why Jesus was accused of being a drunkerd? And why Did Jesus talk about the wine skins, he clearly pointed out the fermantaion procces by saying the Old wine skins would burst.
Plus you never answered Jonathans reply. Rick b
First, I can not answer with any authority a question directed to the Church? What is it you want me to say Rick. Jonathan needs to ask the church. I cannot answer for them. I do not know why they do not or did not produce their own wine.
You asked then explain why Jesus was accused of being a drunkerd? The same reason you accuse the LDS Church for not having the truth. Limited understanding.
Why do you think .And why Did Jesus talk about the wine skins, he clearly pointed out the fermantaion procces by saying the Old wine skins would burst is a clear representation of the fermentation process? It's funny how when it's convenient, you say that a passage of scripture did not specifically say something. Yet you are at liberty to interpret other scriptures to mean what you think they mean.
You also said Honestly if you never replied again I would not mis you. Wish granted. This will me my last post on your blog. I know why you wouldn't miss me, you get tired of making up stuff. There are truths that have been presented that you cannot answer for. Truths that have been clearly pointed out by the Bible (as well as the Book of Mormon) and you still chose not to accept it. You get frustrated when I point out the truth and you fail to have answers. The reason is becase "the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center." (1 Ne. 16:2) You cannot answer because you cannot handle the truth.
So feel free to continue your demogogy and blasphemy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But know this. "For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged."(Matt. 7:2)
"Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.
Now I ask, is this faith? Behold I say unto you Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it." (Alma 32:17-18)
"Nevertheless, not my will be done; but if God shall smite thee, let that be a sign unto thee that he has power, both in heaven and in earth; and also, that Christ shall come." (Jacob 7:14)
I pray that you will learn to have faith in God and not wait for "facts", expecially those acquired through mis-interpretations and the knowledge and undertanding of men. For all of the "facts" and "knowledge" you claim to have leaves no room for faith. It is sad that you have acquiesced to the grips of satans misguidence. He has your heart so bound, there is no room for God and His truths. He has you to the point that you will overlook doctrines of Jesus Christ as clearly explained in the Bible. I am not just referring to those presented in this article, but all those I have presented, past and present.
Before I leave your blog, as you desire, I will say this. I know God lives, and that Jesus Christ is my savior. I know that the priesthood of God is the only authority on the earth that holds all the keys, rights, and privledges to perform those ordinances that pertain to salvation, such as baptism. I know that the heavens have been opened again and Jesus Christ speaks to a living prophet today and is at the head of His church. The only way for man to be saved is through the Atonement of Jesus Christ and through obedience to his laws and ordinances. Because if there was no law, there could be no sin. Jesus Christ has overcome sin and death, known as spiritual death and physical death. Through the resurrection, granted to everyone that has ever lived, we will be made whole again after death. Through the Atonement, we can obtain the presence of God the Father through the mercy of Jesus Christ by our repentance and submission to him so that he can satisfy Justice on our behalf. I testify that families can be sealed together forever, on the earth today, by the holy priesthood of God. I bear witness of these truths so that you cannot deny at the judgement bar of Christ, that you never heard them. And this will stand as a witness against you when you meet your maker. God will not be mocked and will have the last word. No argument you provide will be good enough. I bid you farewell, and good luck.
Chuck,
I am puzzled that as an member of the church you do not know why your church uses water instead of wine for its sacrament. As important as the sacrament is, all members should have a deep understanding of it. However, since you are partaking of the sacrament in ignorance I will inquire for you and get back to you about it. I do not expect for you to be able to give out official policy. And since the only way for people who are not journalists to ask the Prophet about the official church policy for use of wine in the sacrament. I am going to send a letter through the mail to ask that very question. I will get back to you about it their answer.
This is the body of my letter:
To Gordon B. Hinckley, President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints:
I am writing to inquire about the official church policy for use of wine in the sacrament or communion. In comes from my reading of the commandments of God found in the Doctrine of Covenants section 89, verse 5 and 6, "That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him. And, behold, this should be wine, yea pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make."
During sacrament meeting water is served instead of wine to represent the blood of Jesus, shed for our sins, in apparent disobedience to the commandment of God given to the first president of the Church, Joseph Smith, jr. on February 27, 1833. Why does the church with its vast resources and church welfare system including farms not have any vineyards or wine producing facilities for the production of wine for use in the sacrament as commanded by God? There are processes in wine making that can reduce the amount of alcohol in wine and the several ounces of wine consumed during the sacrament would not induce impairment or make anyone drunk, which is contrary to the will of God.
Chuck, if you manage to read this, I know you said your leaving, but you might look to see if I reply.
Your not giving me truth I cannot handle or answer. Your the one blind and refuses to execpt the truth, but then again all we will do is go back and forth, saying the other is blind, Your testominy means nothing, Blind faith cannot save. I really hope you lose your prideful attidue and execpt the real Jesus, Time is short but eternal torment is forever. Rick b
I wanted to add a few thoughts for the LDS to think about.
When the WOW was first put out, it was pretty much only a mere suggestion, follow if you want to sort of thing, but is was around 18 years later it became a law.
A few problems I have is this, Chuck the LDS poster stated a lot of verses from the OT claiming these were laws for every person to follow and I claimed they were not.
So if I am wrong and He is correct, then I would ask this, Why is it BY and JS did not seem to understand these OT laws for all to follow, They both drank Wine and other spirits.
Then Chuck qoutes Numbers 6
3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.
Now if this verse really means what Chuck wants it to mean, then this verse includes Vinegar, grapes and Raisins. So How many LDS break this law by eating or using Vinegar, Raisins or grapes.
Either Chuck is correct in this verse and many LDS break it and the Early LDS prophets broke it, or church is incorrect. Just a thought. Rick b
I have decided against asking President Hinckley about the defining the Church's position on use of wine instead of water for the sacrament. I am sure many of the answers I have received from my "friends" from FAIR mirror what he would say they basically have two ways to explain this away. First, they describe the history of the Christian church not using wine and how it is partaking from the cup that is important not the medium that is consumed, and second that a previous commandment found in section 27 states that is does not matter what one takes for the sacrament. Is short, wine is not necessary for the sacrament even though it was commanded by Joseph Smith, JR. Just another apology for the founder of the church...
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