Bruce R. McConkie's "Challenge

I posted this back in Jan of (06) And no one has been able to take it up and give an honest answer. I even posted it on another Blog and the only reply from an LDS person was, I could reply I just do not want to. I told her she was a liar and could not that was why she did not. I showed it to a Mormon Missionary I was sharing with, him and his partner could not answer it, so here it is again for any one who has not seen it. I am posting it again because I was told I would get the answers I am looking for. Rick b

In the Original 1958 Edition to the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R.McConkie He states In the Preface:

This Work on Mormon Doctrine Is unique--the first book of it's kind ever published.
It is the first major attempt to digest, explain, and analyze all of the important doctrines of the kingdom.
It is the first extensive compendium of the whole gospel--the first attempt to publish an encyclopedic commentary covering the whole field of revealed religion.

True, there are many Bible commentaries, dictionaries, and encyclopedias; but they all abound in apostate, sectarian notions. Also, there are many sound gospel texts on special subjects.

But never before has a comprehensive attempt been made to define and outline, in a brief manner, all of the basic principles of salvation--and to do it from the perspective of all revelation, both ancient and modern.

This work on Mormon Doctrine is designed to help persons seeking salvation to gain that knowledge of God and his laws without which they cannot hope for an inheritance in the celestial city.

Since it is impossible foe a man to be saved in ignorance of God and his laws and since a man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge of Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation, it follows that men are obligated at their peril to learn and apply the true doctrines of the gospel.

this gospel compendium will enable men, more effectively, to "teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom"; to "be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel,in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient" for them "to understand." (D and C 88:77-7

For the work itself, I assume sole and full responsibility. Observant students, however, will note that the four standard works of the Church are the chief sources of authority quoted and that literally tens of thousands of scriptural quotations and citations are woven into the text material.
Where added explanations and interpretations were deemed essential, they have been taken from such recognized doctrinal authorities as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, and Joseph Fielding Smith.

Two persons have been particularly helpful in the actual preparation of the work: 1. Velma Harvey, my very able and competent secretary, who with unbounded devotion and insight has typed manuscripts, checked references, proofread, and worked out many technical details; and 2. Joseph Fielding Smith , Jr., my brother in law, who both set the type and made many valuable suggestions as to content and construction.

Abundant needed and important counsel has also come from Milton R. Hunter, my colleague on the First Council of the Seventy; Marvin Wallin, of Bookcraft; and Thomas S. Moson, of the deseret News Press. Salt Lake City, Utah June 1, 1958 --Bruce R. McConkie.

Keep in mind Bruce stated He looks to people Like Joseph Smith and Bringham Young as recognized doctrinal authorities. So with that in mind, Is a Challenge as it were, Issued By Bruce R.McConkie.

I have read all 4 standard works. I find nothing at all in the Book of Mormon to prove it is inspired by God as LDS claim. Bruce states we can find hundreds of topics, I would like to issue a Challenge to all my Latter-day saint friends to bring forth just 10 topics of your choice, compare them to the Bible and show me how they are a more accurate display of the Gospel. Please keep in mind, I am following Acts 17:11 and 1st peter 3:15. Then after you read Bruce's Challenge, I lovingly added a list of things That LDS feel are core doctrine yet cannot be found in the BoM. This matter has everlasting eternal consequences. sincerely Rick b.

In the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R. McConkie, under the title Book of Mormon.
bruce says the Purpose of the book of mormon is this.

1. To bear record of Christ, certifying in plainness and with clarity of his divine sonship and mission, proving irrefutably that he is the Redeemer and Saviour.

2. To teach the doctrines of the gospel in such a pure and perfect way that the plan of salvation will be clearly revealed; and

3. To stand as a witness to all the world that Joseph Smith was the Lord's anointed through whom the foundation was laid for the great latter-day work of restoration. Almost all of the doctrines of the gospel are taught in the Book of Mormon with much greater clarity and perfection than those same doctrines are revealed in the Bible. Anyone who will place in parallel columns the teachings of these two great books on such subjects as the atonement, plan of salvation, gathering of Israel, baptism, gifts of the spirit, miracles, revelation, faith, Charity, ( or ANY of a HUNDRED OTHER SUBJECTS), will find conclusive proof of the superiority of the Book of Mormon teachings.



Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that Elohim (God the Father in Mormonism) was once a mortal man and that he was not always God?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God has a body of flesh and bones?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God is married in heaven?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that men can become Gods?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that temple participation is necessary to become exalted?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach the blood of Christ does not cleanse certain sins?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it say there is more than one God?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it say males must hold either the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthood?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that there are "three degrees of glory"?

Some questions?

The questions below were questions I asked an LDS member on the Mormon Coffee Blog I post on. We were talking about the Changes in the Book of Mormon and polygamy, these two topics were 2 different threads, but they were questions I asked, so I thought I would put them out here.


1. Years ago when I was first speaking with LDS, I would say that was 12 years ago by now, Every LDS that I spoke with about these 4,000 plus mistakes denied they ever existed, now you guys admit to them. So some where along the line they have changed.

2. I own a 1920 edition plus the Newest edition, their are changes between them both, so now we have changes from the 1830 edition to the 1920 edition, then more changes from the 1920 edition to the 1980’s edition. The problem I have is, no place in these books is it footnoted that all these changes were made or why.

Then not only are their changes in the BoM, but I am lucky enough to own the original copy of the D and C and the 1888 edition of the Pearl of great price, and guess what? Their are changes from both of the originals of those to the newest editions, and guess what? No mention of those changes in the footnotes.

So you can say what you want, but it is less than honest to make changes that effect Doctrine and not mention it in a foot notes. Then with the modern printing presses their is no excuses for all these typos or errors.

Last point, the 1830 edition tells us that Jesus is God, the BoM supports Doctrine that LDS do not believe today, So Did LDS teach or believe false doctrine back in the day because of mistakes? And I suspect you will say no, but the Bigger question is, why Did God not speak to JS and say, Do not pass out the BoM or sell it because of the many Errors. Sadly God seems to be able to clearly speak to JS and clearly tell him to take on many wives, yet cannot speak to him and tell him these are mistakes in the “translation” that will effect the LDS Doctrine. Rick b

Blogging problems.

I was saying before on here, I was having problems with my blog. I am not Tech Savvy at all. I post over on the Mormon Coffee blog, their blog was blogger at one time, but they keep changing it to better fit their needs, they were using "Intense Debate" set up, I needed to sign up with them in order to post, as a result Intense Debate was installed on my blog.

That was causing many problems, I did not know if people posted or under what topic, I was able to remove it, but as a result every person that posted under that forum, including myself, was deleted, every post, gone.

I am sorry for the problems, and now it seems, the blog is set up so no one can reply, That is something I am still trying to figure out. But I know many LDS will simply believe I am making all this up and deleted every thing on purpose, so be it, you can still write me at my email address or come post on the Mormon Coffee blog, as I spend much time on that blog. rick b

LDS using Deception?

GB, I posted this topic back in April of 2006, It is still on my blog and no one ever replied to it, Since I feel this fits you and you feel it fits me, lets talk about it. Now Bill let me add this, I believe you are like this and I stated why, I asked a question about a false prophecy by JS, You refused to give an honest answer and say, Yes it never came to pass but here is why, or you never said, Rick your wrong it did come to pass and here is why.

Instead you said, Jesus said this will come to pass and it never did, so either Jesus and Joseph are both Frauds, or it did come to pass and they are both Truthful. Bill, that is not answering my question. Then I even told you, I will answer your question on how it did come to pass, you will not agree with my answer, then after that you will still not answer my question, and guess what, you proved to be a wolf in sheeps clothing.

So Bill I will state up front, You need to give spefic answers with the reason why I am supposedly lying and being dishonest or I will simply remove you from the blog, I am not going to get into this, you refuse to answer question and simply come on and say, Rick your wrong because I said so, that is not an honest answer and I refuse you keep playing games with you. Below is the topic.

Topic from 2006 to discuss
I have noticed over the Years, What I feel may be the use of Deception. The Dictionary definfes Deception as,


De·cep·tion
Pronunciation: di-'sep-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : an act of deceiving
2 : something that deceives : DECEIT

Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.


deception
1: a misleading falsehood [syn: misrepresentation, deceit] 2: the act of deceiving [syn: deceit, dissembling, dissimulation] 3: an illusory feat; considered magical by naive observers [syn: magic trick, conjuring trick, trick, magic, legerdemain, conjuration, illusion]

.

Now the Main part of the issue of Deception I want to focus on is this:

1: a misleading falsehood [syn: misrepresentation, deceit]

.

In my years of sharing the Gospel with Mormons, I have noticed way to often, this Use of misleading falsehood. What I mean by, I notice this, Is this. I will talk with Mormon Missionary's for example, And I will ask them, What do you think or believe about the Bible. They will say, We(I) believe the Bible to be the word of God.

They simply stop short, But I know the Articles of faith, I point out that According to Articles of faith number 8.


8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.



Notice, that when I ask the Mormons what they think/believe about the Bible, they seem to forget the words, as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

So simply by saying, We Believe the Bible to be the Word of God, and leaving off the rest is a form of Deception. This is allowing the LDS member to lead people to believe something that even the LDS do not believe. I notice the LDS also do this when I ask, who do you believe Jesus is, Or what do you believe About Jesus.

The Mormons will tell me they believe Jesus is the son of God. The Problem I have with this is, First off those of us who are Bible believing Christians, Believe in the Trinity and One God only. But when Mormons say they believe Jesus is the Son of God, many Christians would think the LDS are saying they believe in the Trinity and one God only. But I know as well as the LDS members that they believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers who were either Created or were once men first, This depends on which view you hold.

Either way, this again is a form of deception. I am sure some LDS members will say that Christians will or due use Deception, This may be true? But if it is I honestly am not aware of it, and I don't use deception. I feel if the LDS really do have the true Gospel, then they should have no use for lying and deception. But if they need to do that, then they really should question if they are following a true beliefs or a lie.

If LDS have examples of Christians Doing this, please post them, I am very opposed to anyone having to lie or deceive to spread the gospel. I also am posting this topic, because I want Christians to be aware of this LDS tactic and point it out when it happens. And I want the LDS to be aware of this, just in case they do this and in all honesty they never realized they were doing it.

Joseph Smith's Vision.

I want to discuss a topic found in both the 1920 edition of the triple combination found in the very end of the book, and in the book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. on pages 106-107.

Vision of the Celestial Kingdom.

On the twenty-first day of January, 1836, the First Presidency, and a number of presiding brethren in the Church, assembled in the Kirtland Temple where they engaged in the ordinances of the endowment, as far as it had at the time been revealed. After this was done the Prophet states that "All of the Presidency laid their hands upon me, and pronounced upon my head many prophecies and blessings, many of which I shall not notice at this time." "All of the Presidency" included Oliver Cowdery and Father Joseph Smith as well as the two counselors, Sidney Rigdon and Frederick G. Williams. Following this ordinance the following vision and revelation were givin to the Prophet, making known to him and through him to the Church one of the most important principles pertaining to the salvation of men

.

The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell. I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire; also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son. I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold. I saw Father Adam and Abraham, and my father and my mother, my brother, Alvin, that has long since slept, and maravelled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.
Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying-

REVELATION

.

All who have died without a knowledge of this Gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom, for I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability, are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven. D.H.C. 2:380-381.

Here are a few problems I find with this vision Joseph Smith had. Read over the requirements for salvation given by Bruce R. McConkie found in the book "Mormon Doctrine," under "Salvation." This is also posted on my blog, under Will all be saved,Part 2

The requirements given do not line up with this vision. According to this vision, God states through the Prophet Joseph Smith, Anyone who died without hearing the gospel, if they would have heard the gospel and believed it, would be allowed to enter the Celestial heaven. If this is in fact true, then why even bother doing Baptism for the dead? I figure, if they would have believed, then they will be saved. Also, if this is true, why bother sending out Mormon Missionaries?

We also see Mormon Prophets both contradicting the Lord and confusing the people. If this vision is true, then we read about Prophets leading the LDS people astray. Here are a few examples. In the book, Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Student Manual, we read on page 131, under the title, (1-13) Exaltation Is Based on Celestial Marriage.

If you want salvation in the fullest, that is exaltation in the kingdom of God, so that you may become his sons and daughters, you have got to go into the temple of the Lord and receive these holy ordinances which belong to that house, which cannot be had elsewhere. No man shall receive the fullness of eternity, of exaltation, alone; no woman shall receive that blessing alone; but man and wife, when they receive the sealing power in the temple of the Lord, if they thereafter keep all the commandments, shall pass on to exaltation, and shall continue and become like the Lord. And that is the destiny of men; that is what the Lord desires for his children. (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43-44.)

These things are not only taught by Bruce McConkie and the Student Manuel, but also by the Prophet Joseph F. Smith. We also read in Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Student Manual, pp 30-31, a modern day parable given by the LDS PROPHET, Spencer Kimball. In short it states that if we are not married in the temple, we could be shut out of the 3rd heaven.

The Prophet Spencer Kimball in "Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, pg. 30, makes it very clear that we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. He gives a list of 6 things called, (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). It says that when you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about:

1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. Overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.

Then we read in "Gospel Principles," pg. 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). We are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the Sabbath Day holy or obey the Word of Wisdom. We are not repentant if we do not sustain the authorities of the church nor love the Lord and our fellow man.

Add to that pg. 241 of "Gospel Principles," eternal marriage is ESSENTIAL FOR EXALTATION (emphasis mine). Our exaltation depends on marriage. Then over on pg. 242, it says, "and in order to obtain the highest, a man MUST ENTER INTO THIS ORDER OF THE PRIESTHOOD [MEANING THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT OF MARRIAGE];" "and if he does not, he cannot obtain it" (D and C 131:1-3)

Now with all that said, how is it that Joseph Smith's brother does none of this, yet is saved in the Celestial Kingdom? Notice, Joseph Smith even states he marvelled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom.

We read in the Dictionary at Dictionary.com, the meaning of the word marvel is:

1. One that evokes surprise, admiration, or wonder. See Synonyms at wonder.
2. Strong surprise; astonishment.

v. mar·veled, also mar·velled mar·vel·ing, mar·vel·ling mar·vels, mar·vels
v. intr.
To become filled with wonder or astonishment.

If Joseph was surprised, it tells me that he did not expect to see his brother there. But why does his brother get special treatment? Please explain to me, why would I want to be an LDS member and do all the work required to enter the temple, and be taught the idea that I might not get into the highest heaven? If I read only the book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, believe his vision to be true, and die, I believe I could enter the celestial heaven by default, without any works.

Does anyone care to explain why the LDS church is built on a foundation of sand and confusion? Rick b

More from Tex, the LDS who might leave.

I am only going to post what was written by Tex the LDS member and I will commit on a few things I take issue with. again here is the link if you choose to go to the RoT board. RoT

Tex Said

I think you are wondering if I have in fact wrote the email to my bishop. Yes I have wrote the email and wanted to have an answer from him. We haven't yet meet since, but the missioanries passed yesterday and I set up an appointment with them for next Friday. Let's see how it goes.

Some of the issues in my email have been discussed here true but poorly I need to say. Most of them can be answered and can have a way of explaining as they were. There's however a few things which are a big blow to Mormon history. Those are the Mark Hofmann case and the Kinderhook Plates. The book of Abraham also falls in the category but is more subjective.

Anyway I just gather all of it and send it to my bishop. His answer lacks a bit of respect from my point of view but let's see how things will develope from now on.

I imagine you were surprised tol. No one have helped me to send the email but I have gathered all needed information from history of the church and other sources which seem to be accurate.

The Mormon church is a great institution, I have no doubts about it. Paying my tithing is the important thing and not exactly where to, although I prefer it to go to a honest institution which and even with all the issues LDS still be (however I have stopped for the time being). I do not regret the money towards the prop 8 thing, but I get very upset to see tithings going towards a forger who have took the Brethern for fool for over 3 years.

I do not see the all LDS community as a dishonest bunch of poeple. I actually believe many of the General Authorities believe they are what they believe to be regardless of they being it or not. It's a chain which seemed to have started with Joseph Smith and have no stop. Don't see it as all bad and have no problem to know of a church called LDS who have a president and other helpers and which produce good works. That is pretty much what other faiths do and have. The issue here is in which is based and if it's not what it claims to be then it's not for me, therefore I pressed the test button, so let's see how it ends or perhaps how it begins :roll:

No matter what the outcome will be, I believe i have learned great things in the LDS church and I have not lied that I have felt right and good about the whole thing. I need however to admit that I have felt good about many things in life before which revealed not to be the right thing later on. I believe that there's a truth called God and Jesus Christ and that is available to all not matter what religion you belong to. Saying that I dismiss fanatics who believe all LDS will go to hell.. that is not simply true at all, neither that LDS worship a different Christ. My issue here is factual points which cannot be understood at least for me in a spiritual prespective or as if a way of God to work. The Mark Hofmann case really hits hard the bottom of the ship, and although I have brought it here in this forum for the first time and gave it an explanation myself, I never quite digested it since I knew about it. The Kinderhook Plates is another one I have never found it here in this forum, but was a hard one to learn. There's another episode in Joseph Smith life called the "Greek Pslamer" which never was discussed here I think, but you guys can have a look out there if you haven't came across yet. I actually found out this one yesterday and is another brick for the collection.

I think it's possible to an LDS to be saved because of his faith in Christ, but the truth and the question I have been asking myself these past days is that if I knew about this skeletons before I joined the LDS church would I still join it? Unfortunatelly the answer to that question is no, and therefore my pause here and time for a serious inspection.

Tex said No one have helped me to send the email but I have gathered all needed information from history of the church and other sources which seem to be accurate.

I find it rather interesting that Tex said he used History of the Chuch and found it Accurate, Yet Many people like me us LDS sources to prove the church has changed history or something and LDS claim were crazy. Dont get me wrong, I am glad an LDS memeber is doing his homework and finding the church is not what it claims to be.


Tex said The Mormon church is a great institution, I have no doubts about it.

I must disagree, the control the leaders have over members to the point that we cannot be saved if we do not enter the temple or follow the WoW is really sad.

Then Tex is starting to find out the church is not as honest as he once believed, how is it great if it is not honest? And if it really is a different gospel and if Paul was correct in Gal 1:8-9 would Jesus or Paul say that the Mormon Church is great? The Bible is clear and the answer is No!


Tex Said

I do not see the all LDS community as a dishonest bunch of poeple. I actually believe many of the General Authorities believe they are what they believe to be regardless of they being it or not.

I agree to a point, Not all LDS are lying dishonest people, but that does not mean they know Jesus or are saved. Read the Bible, Jesus does not teach that if you have a false view of Him, but are at least sincere in you false view, then you will be saved. Jesus said that not every one who says, LORD, LORD will be saved. The people even said to Jesus, Lord, Lord, did we not do miracles in your name? or cast out demons in your name?

Those seem like good things, but still, what did Jesus say to them? Depart from me into everlasting fire.

Tex said, No matter what the outcome will be, I believe i have learned great things in the LDS church and I have not lied that I have felt right and good about the whole thing. You can learn good things, but again, good things cannot save us and if the church is false, then no matter what they teach you, it cannot save you. Then Tex said he felt good about it, well the Bible tells us in Jer 17:9 that the heart is desperately wicked, and who can know it. So we cannot go by how we feel.


Tex Said
I think it's possible to an LDS to be saved because of his faith in Christ,

ONLY, If it is the True Jesus, again, the Bible is clear, their are false Gospels, teachers and people trying to lead us astray. Rick b

An LDS Might be leaving the Church?

I was posting on a board called Reach out trust, Anyway an LDS member going by Duartexas Left this reply. I will leave a link to the board and you can reply to the issues here if you want, but I cannot speak for Teaxs, He has left more replies on the RoT board and I will add a few here, other wise you can speak with him on the board.

RoT

After you get to the RoT main page, click on the LDS section and this letter can be found under the topic called Was my Bishop honest in his answer?

The letter says:

A week ago I decided to elaborate a crashing letter to my bishop. This is want I sent (names will be excluded for privacy reasons)

Dear Bishop X:

About 3 to 4 months ago, I've started to study closely LDS history and unfortunately I have found out lots of skeletons which we or at least I as a Mormon have not been told when I have joined the church and never knew about them until recently. These findings which are not just opinions but facts, have disturbed me a lot regarding the Mormon claim and the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as the only inspired and guided church on Earth by prophets and restored by God and Christ themselves to Joseph Smith.

The issues are countless. Perhaps some are familiar to you, some not. Whether you are aware of them or not, the fact is that none of this was ever shown to me and unfortunately it came to a point that it seems others know actually more about my own church then myself.

I know we are told to believe by faith and we are told to rely on our testimony uniquely and nothing else. Yet I believe we also must search study and use our intelligence to compare the truth and not just feelings, because I have had many good feelings during my life about many things and those were not necessarily the most correct decisions not to mention the many LDS members who have joined the church but who never have received and "answer".

So I took the up the challenge to scan the church from its beginnings until today and add to my testimony solid evidence. I was convinced that if the church is what it claims to be, then there's nothing in its own history which can shake the foundations of its truthful nature, because God is perfect and although man is not and even prophets can commit mistakes, any issues need to have an explanation and reason to be.

Basically in my Mormon history research I have found out the following:

Joseph Smith has been exposed as a false translator of ancient records.
In 1843 six brass plate where supposedly found in Kinderhook, Illinois by a man called Joshua Moore. He took them to Joseph Smith to be translated. Joseph came up with a translation, and afterwards they were told to be a hoax which was planned on purpose to prove Joseph Smith as a false prophet. The Mormon church try to distance themselves from this episode, but it can be read and found in the church history (History of the Church vol.5, p 372). My conclusion is that if Joseph would lie about these, could he have lied about anything else? Unfortunately yes. The following is another shocking proof.

Joseph Smith translate wrongly the Facsimile shown in the Pearl of Great Price
This was another shocking thing I found about Joseph Smith. He have acquired these Facsimile when the church purchased for $2400, 4 mummies from an Irish man called Michael Chandler in 1835. These Facsimile could not be interpreted back then by scholars so no one could prove Joseph wrong. Today these can be interpreted and if you research you will find that those Facsimile are nothing else then mummification procedures and actually are common funerary amulets and not related to Abraham or the book of Abraham. Also these papyrus were 2000 years old, so how could have they been written by Abraham if he lived well before that? If Joseph have lied about these how reliable is the translation or even existence of the book of Mormon?

Joseph Smith did not die as a martyr
This was one of the more shocking findings I came across. I was taught in my classes as a young men that Joseph Smith died as a martyr like a lamb to the slaughter likewise Christ. He was actually armed when he was arrested, and when the mob came in he fired six shots which two of them actually killed 2 men. Joseph was not arrested because of his faith, but because he called to the destruction of the press which revealed he was living in polygamy (which he was but denied). I agree that if I have a gun and a mob comes to attack me I will defend myself, but comparing that to Jesus Christ in or any other martyr we can find in the bible, is outrageous in my opinion.

John Taylor, who was to become the third president of the Church, added his testimony concerning Joseph Smith's death:

“He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died. (History of the Church, vol. 7, pp.102-3)”


This was not the Joseph Smith I’ve been taught about. He did not go like Jesus Christ, "who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not..." (1 Peter 2:23) No, Joseph Smith went out shooting.


The forgeries of Mark William Hoffmann
This is one of the most recent hot cases which have happened in LDS history in the beginning 1980's. Mark Hofmann a member of the church born in Utah and who actually served a mission in England, Bristol, apparently have lost his faith in the LDS church long ago probably even before his mission. When he came back he decided to study church history and found out that the church was hiding some parts of his history more exactly beliefs and ideologies of its founders. So Mark decided to create false documents which were supposedly written by Joseph Smith and other important figures of Mormonism back then. He also suspected that the church was interested in acquiring potentially embarrassing documents so they could suppress them. So Mark was up for the test. He have produced remarkable documents which quality was so good that experts accepted as genuine both in terms of time as well as respective signatures and hand writing. Among those and you can find all this info on the net and church history are:

1 May 1980 Mark sells to Gordon B Hinckley the Anthon transcript for $20,000. Pres Kimball back then examined the document with a magnifying glass but never was able to tell it was fake.
2 Feb 1981 Mark sell the Joseph Smith blessing to his son Joseph Smith III stating that the young boy would become the next prophet to the church for $10,000
3 Mar 1981 Mark sells Valley Notes an early Mormon currency certificates to the church for $20,000
4 Mar 1982 Mark sells the Martin Harris Testimony to the church for $20,000
5 July 1982 Mark sells the Lucy Mack Letter to the church for $30,000
6 Sep 1982 Mark sells Maid of Iowa riverboats tickets to the church for $7,500
7 Jan 1983 Mark sells the Stowell Money-Digging letter to the church for $15,000 (sold directly to Gordon B Hinckley) with the parting comment " this is one letter that will never see the light of day"
8 Jan 1984 Mar sells the Salamander Letter to the church for $40,000
9 Oct 1984 Mark sells the Betsy Ross Letter to the church for $12,000
10 Nov 1984 Mark sells the Jim Bridger signatures to the church for $10,000
11 June 1985 Mar sells the McLellin Papers tot he church for $185,000
12 July 1985 Mark sells the Martin Harris Personal copy of the "View of the Hebrews" directly to Gordon B Hinckley for an undisclosed amount
13 Aug 1985 Mark sells the David Whitmer Letter directly to Gordon B Hinckley again for an undisclosed amount
14 Oct 1985 Gordon B Hinckley extends $500,000 line of credit to Steve Christensen to locate and purchase damaging documents with Mark's assistance
15 Oct 1985 Mark have a deal to sell the Kinderhook Translation directly to Gordon B Hinckley for $150,000 but due to a crime Mark was involved the deal never was complete.

Mark Hoffmann took the LDS church for a long twisting roller coaster of nearly 1 million dollars in sales. Gordon B Hinckley have affirmed that they were tricked. But my question is where was the discernment these leaders are supposed to have. This is hard earning money spent from honest tithing people. The church have affirmed before that they do not spend a dime of the Lord's money without His blessing. Well a lot to explain there. It was the FBI which found Mark's forgeries. The church have actually claimed some of Mark's findings as great even Dallin H Oaks commented in the with Salamander letter as a "very close description".

Joseph Smith and his family were active Masons and LDS Temples are a reflection of that.
I was never told that Joseph Smith was a mason and that he have embraced masonry. It's very unfair the church hides these things from the members. However when we go to the Temple and search a bit about masonry then all makes sense. I'm not going into details, but all handshakes, passwords, grips that we use in the Temple are all in Masonic rituals. You can actually verify that yourself here www.ephesians5-11.org/handshakes.htm I admit that there's differences in wording but it's pretty much the same taking into consideration that many things which were part of the endowment a few years ago were taken away and also were similar with masonry Now the big question here is... Masonry came first then Mormonism So only 2 options, either the Mason were ahead of Mormons and received revelation from God about His sacred things, or the God used the Mason's methods to reveal His gospel. Since I do not believe in both the only option left is that Joseph Smith as an active and proved ex-Mason, borrowed all these rites from masonry and brought them to the Temple endowment. So where is the revelation in there? This was very shocking to me to learn and many Mormons unfairly do not know about these things.

Brigham Young taught non Christian doctrines
Pres. Brigham young taught that Adam was God and it was the only God we have to do with as follows
"When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Arch-angel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken - HE is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, pp. 50-51)”

Bruce R. McConkie actually commented in Brigham's Young teaching by saying:

"Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him. This [i.e., Brigham Young's teaching on Adam], however, is not true. He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel.
“There are those who believe, or say they believe, that Adam is our father and our God,... The devil keeps this heresy alive... It is contrary to the plan of salvation...and anyone who has received the temple endowment and who yet believes the Adam-God theory does not deserve to be saved." (Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, talk given at the BYU Marriot Center on June 1, 1980)”


More shocking Brigham Young taught that some sins cannot be cleaned with the blood of Christ but we must shed our own blood as follows:

“There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it... (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p.247)”
“There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone for their sins... (Sermon by Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, pp.53-54; also published in the Desseret News, Oct. 1, 1856, p.235 )”


and this idea is enforced by J.M. Grant, a member of the first presidency under Brigham Young:

“...there are men and women that I would advise to go to the President immediately, and ask him to appoint a committee to attend to their case; and then let a place be selected, and let that committee shed their blood. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, pp.49-50)”

Is this a kind of doctrine a true prophet of God would teach? I was never told my church had such involvements. How many Mormons out there actually know these?



Joseph Smith boasted publically above Jesus Christ
What about this quote from Joseph Smith:" I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam...Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it, I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter Day Saints never ran away from me yet." History of the Church, in Volume 5 pages 408 and 409.

It certainly does not sound as from a prophet of God at all.



Book of Mormon inconsistencies
The Book of Mormon seems to me to be a largely plagiarized document with no historical, anthropological, and archaeological basis in reality. The Mormon church claims that the Nephites had the Old Testament books which were written prior to the time they left Jerusalem (around 600 B.C.). Therefore it comes as no surprise that the Book of Mormon contains many quotations taken right from the Old Testament (over 18 chapters of Isaiah alone). What is surprising is that many of these passages were quoted word for word from the King James version of the Bible. What is more surprising still is that the Book of Mormon authors were able to quote from books written after 600 B.C. Let's think about this: How could Joseph Smith have translated exact word for word quotes from "reformed Egyptian" into King James style English? Why would these match word for word with the King James translation of the Bible which itself had been translated from Hebrew and Greek? The King James translators who unfortunately lacked the Urim and Thummim did very well to produce the exact translation Joseph Smith did! The Book of Mormon contains many examples of stories and ideas lifted from the Bible (see Alma 19 and John 11). Some examples are:

"...to be carnally-minded is death, and to be spiritually-minded is life..." 2 Nephi 9:39

"... to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life..." Romans 8:6

"...O wretched man that I am..." 2 Nephi 4:17

"O wretched man that I am..." Romans 7:24

"...steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works..." Mosiah 5:15

"...steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work..." 1 Corinthians 15:58

"...seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things." Moroni 7:45

"...seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things." 1 Corinthians 13:5-7

There are many more examples of plagiarism in the Book of Mormon. One study found over four hundred. Remember, these are New Testament scriptures that the Nephites did not have. How could they have gotten into the Book of Mormon word for word? Not only does the Book of Mormon use the exact same wording (even unusual wording like "stinketh" found in Alma 19:5 and John 11:39) as the New Testament, but it frequently uses it in exactly the same order!

There's many more but I will not type them all.

Joseph Smith First vision versions. Which one is true?
Another unknown fact to many at least to me recently is the first vision account. Consider the following:
Brigham Young - "The Lord did not come with the armies of heaven ... but He did send his angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong" Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 171 (1855)

Wilford Woodruff - "The same organization and Gospel that Christ died for ... is again established in this generation. How did it come? By the ministering of an holy angel from God, out of heaven, who held converse with man, and revealed unto him the darkness that enveloped the world ... He told him the Gospel was not among men, and that there was not a true organization of His kingdom in the world" Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 196 (1855)

Orson Hyde - "Some one may say, 'If this work of the last days be true, why did not the Saviour come himself to communicate this intelligence to the world?' Because to the angels was committed the power of reaping the earth, and it was committed to none else." Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 335 (1854)

George A. Smith - "...he [Joseph Smith] went humbly before the Lord and inquired of Him, and the Lord answered his prayer, and revealed to Joseph, by the ministration of angels , the true condition of the religious world. When the holy angel appeared , Joseph inquired which of all these denominations was right and which he should join, and was told they were all wrong" Journal of Discourses, vol. 12, p. 334 (1863)

George A. Smith - "[Joseph] was enlightened by the vision of an holy angel. When this personage appeared to him, one of the first inquiries was 'Which of the denominations of Christians in the vicinity was right?' " Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 78 (1869)

John Taylor - "None of them was right, just as it was when the Prophet Joseph asked the angel which of the sects was right that he might join it. The answer was that none of them are right." Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, p. 167 (1879)

George Q. Cannon-"But suppose that the statement that Joseph Smith says the angel made to him should be true-that there was no church upon the face of the earth whom God recognized as His, and whose acts He acknowledged-suppose this were true..." Journal of Discourses, vol. 24, pg. 135 (1889)

William Smith- "He accordingly went out into the woods and falling upon his knees called for a long time upon the Lord for wisdom and knowledge. While engaged in prayer a light appeared in the heavens, and descended until it rested upon the trees where he was. It appeared like fire. But to his great astonishment, did not burn the trees. An angel then appeared to him and conversed with him upon many things. He told him that none of the sects were right..." William Smith On Mormonism , By William Smith, Joseph Smith's brother. pg. 5 (1883)

" The angel again forbade Joseph to join any of these churches, and he promised that the true and everlasting Gospel should be revealed to him at some future time. Joseph continues: 'Many other things did he (the angel) say unto me which I cannot write at this time' " Church Historical Record, Vol. 7, January, 1888 [It should be noted here that in this quote the first reference to "the angel" was later changed to "the Holy Being" and the second reference to "the angel" was changed to "the Christ"]

Joseph Smith, Nov. 1835 - "...I received the first visitation of Angels when I was about 14 years old..." Personal writings of Joseph Smith, pg. 84 [It should be noted that this entry has been changed in the History of the Church, Vol. 2, pg. 312. It now reads "my first vision" instead of "visitation of Angels"]

Brigham Young - " Do we believe that the Lord sent his messengers to Joseph Smith, and commanded him to refrain from joining any Christian church, and to refrain from the wickedness he saw in the churches, and finally delivered to him a message informing him that the Lord was about to establish his kingdom on the earth..." Journal of Discourses, Vol. 18, pg. 239

Again the question, which account is the right one if any at all?

Was the name of the angel Moroni or Nephi?
The Times and Seasons Vol. III pp. 749, 753 ("He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi."). [In modern printings of the History of the Church, this has been changed to read "Moroni". It is interesting to note that Joseph Smith lived for two years after the name "Nephi" was printed in Times and Seasons and he never published a retraction.]

In August, 1842, the Millennial Star, printed in England, also published Joseph Smith's story stating that the angel's name was "Nephi" (see Millennial Star, vol. 3, p.53). On page 71 of the same volume we read that the “...message of the angel Nephi ... opened a new dispensation to man...."

In 1853, Joseph's mother, Lucy Mack Smith, also said the angel's name was Nephi (Biographical Sketches, p. 79).

The name was also published in the 1851 edition of the Pearl of Great Price as "Nephi." ("He called me by name and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." (Pearl of Great Price, 1851 edition, page 41) The original handwritten manuscript of the PofGP dictated by Joseph Smith reveals that the name was originally written as "Nephi," but that someone at a later date has written the word "Moroni" above the line. All evidence indicates that this change was made after Joseph Smiths death.


Walter L. Whipple, in his thesis written at BYU, stated that Orson Pratt "published The Pearl of Great Price in 1878, and removed the name of Nephi from the text entirely and inserted the name Moroni in its place" ("Textual Changes in the Pearl of Great Price," typed copy, p.125).

Lastly, in 1888 J. C. Whitmer made this statement: "I have heard my grandmother (Mary M. Whitmer) say on several occasions that she was shown the plates of the Book of Mormon by an holy angel, whom she always called Brother Nephi". [It should be noted that a majority of the Book of Mormon is alleged to have been translated in the Whitmer home)


Why would the church feel the need to change Joseph Smiths story? The fact of the matter is that Moroni makes much more sense than Nephi because it was Moroni who was alleged to have buried the plates in the first place. But, let's not forget, Joseph Smith said the angel was named Nephi, NOT Moroni.

Conclusion

Much I could type here bishop X in regards to other issues such as the stories of polygamy in which Joseph took already married wives to marry him and so on. But I think there's enough material and research here to make me understand that reasoning and history does not quite line up with the LDS church. These are the skeletons I have recently found and I cannot understand how could God have restored His gospel in such cricked ways. I feel very disappointed for knowing about this things now because these are not opinions but facts.

I know that the church's approach will be to rely on my testimony and that the fruits of the church today are "good". Well I have no problem with the principles of the church. I think the LDS church has many good things, a wonderful organization and a good family oriented purpose. No doubts about it. I did serve a full time mission and I enjoyed every bit of it. What needs to be understood here is the single position of the LDS church. There are many evangelical churches out there. Many may have teachings which we do not agree with them, true. All of them were founded by a man a man like Joseph Smith was. But none or at least most of them, claim the whole holders of truth, neither having uniquely the keys and authority from God, or that were established by a visitation of God and Christ themselves and that are today guided by a true living, seer and revelator prophet. They simply announce they are a Christian church who will share Christian messages and are open to anyone who wish to come and listen. The LDS church also share a message, but it singles itself out as having direct divine input which makes it either the only true church on earth or a church build on a lie.

I know there are stories on the bible where prophets committed mistakes. By committing mistakes as a man is one thing, building a gospel or church upon a lie it's another. No matter the amount of good works the church can do, those will never cover up a lie if a lie exists.

I have tried these past months put this behind my back, and focusing in the good things the church has. But every time I hear in the church someone praising Joseph Smith or bearing testimony about him or the book of Mormon, I really can't take it because I now know things I didn't before and which most of them probably don't. It is really hard to deal with it. It's practically impossible to be an active member of the church and not take Joseph Smith as a prophet and the book of Mormon as scripture. Imagine I being called to teach a class and having to discuss Joseph Smith's life as a prophet or any of these topics after coming to the knowledge of these things, it's very very hard.

I have no hard feelings towards the church, but I feel somehow cheated and by it. I do not want to take any decisions for the time being, but I will need space and thought before taking any decisions. I have discussed it with my wife and she supports me and shares my feelings although (differently because her roots on the church are less deep then mine). In a way I have desire to keep an active member specially because I want my son to have the opportunity to have a Christian education, but if it's a lie then I can't do it. I believe in living by faith, but facts are also important.

As I said in the beginning perhaps you have come across some of these things and I would appreciate your input. Meanwhile I will not promise going to the church regularly and will probably investigate other churches around, but will promise to keep in mind pray and honest thought and not just looking at it negatively. I have shared this with another member of the church named Y who was actually the elder who baptized me back in 1990. His advise was the following:



"While I remain LDS, I am not one of those people who say "I KNOW the church is the only true church". Simply put, I have never had a spiritual confirmation. What I do know is that the church helps me be a better person, live Christlike principles, encourages me to make other people's life brighter, and overall I have a good feeling from being associated with it. On my mission I did not KNOW that it was true, but I believed that the principles I taught about good Christlike living could make some people's life better and hopefully pay off in the afterlife. I cannot speak for you, but maybe the church gave you experiences and opportunities and blessings in your life that otherwise you would not have had. For these things I am deeply grateful, and despite confusing and complicated arguments about doctrines and history, I happily choose to remain LDS. I, for one, do not need to prove it is the true church, or claim to KNOW it, in order to be a happy member.

So, believe me when I say I am not one of those super-mormons that claim to know "without a doubt" the church is true. I don't. I do not know if Joseph Smith was a prophet or if he really saw God and Jesus. I do not know if the book of mormon is true scripture. What I do know is that Joseph's intent for the future church and the members was righteous - and that the fruits of his work (the church today) are good - even though he was far from a perfect man. And I know that the principles taught in the Book of Mormon are ones that reflect the teachings of Christ (even though there are many arguments that it is not a legitimate text). I am not prepared to say it is true, but I am also not willing to call it a con. What I do know is how the church and principles it teaches has blessed my life - and hopefully help me out in the afterlife.

So, I am sorry if I do not have sufficient or acceptable answers to the details of your specific issues regarding the doctrines or history. I'm neither a church historian, nor a theologist. I'm not calling these issues unimportant, but I am saying they aren't important to me - and again if that is the wrong choice then I am willing to take the consequences If it is important to you that every detail line up, and the history and doctrines of the church are completely logical, then I'm sorry to say you'll be disappointed. To me, the church details don't line up, and some things are illogical, but I'm happy being Mormon."

I wish I could take it as easy as him, but I'm really having a hard time to put it behind my back even though the church is a place I like to be and be part of. Anyway I just felt I needed to pass this to you. I preferred to email you over talking personally since there's so much in here. At least you can print this out and read it in your own time and perhaps we will have the chance to discuss it further. When I was last time in your office with my wife I really meant what was discussed and was trying at the same time to put all these behind me and ignore it. But everyday I think about it it gets worse and so I decided to share with you what the real problem is. Maybe by sharing it I can come to a resolution quicker.

Anyway sorry for this huge email and thanks for reading it.

Regards

Duartexas



After 1 week of waiting my bishop decides to answer and this is his reply to me:

Dear Duartexas
I am quite simply amazed at the content of this e-mail, hence my delay in responding
I am extremely disappointed that you have been less than honest in our recent meeting
I am left to wonder what you actually did for two years on a Mission!
Are you telling me here that you went through two years of a Mission without receiving any spiritual witness of anything you taught?
I am sure you will understand why I do not intend to waste your time or mine in going through this e-mail line by line
Like me you have been blessed with the gift of Agency, a gift for which we are all accountable
You are able to choose the path you wish to follow and are free to do so
Should you wish to discuss this face to face I am happy to meet with you, but please be prepared to be totally honest this time

Best Regards
Bishop X



I have my opnion on this answer, but what you fine people make of it?