Jim Olson said to Messianic
Messianic,
Have you read the BOM? In what ways does it “contradict” the Bible? You realize that what you related is an opinion, and there are millions of people who have studied the BOM and are of the opinion that it does not contradict the Bible. Have you made a serious study of the BOM, or just relied upon the opinions of others?
Jim, I have read the BoM and all the standard works and here is a partial list of contradictions, their are so many I will need to do two or three parts.
I wanted to reply to you about all the contradictions I see in the BoM that do not line up with the Bible. I needed to write this up as a post and not a reply under a topic because there are way to many problems and I was so busy that by the time I was able to reply, the topic was so far down that you would not give a good reply if one at all. So, here we go.
I'm doing my own reading of the BoM too find these problems, not simply scouring the internet looking for them. The list is very long. lets start with this.
1 Nephi 1:2
2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.
and
Mosiah 1:4 For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time.
According to the Bible, God told the Jews to not go back to the Egyptians and you cannot show me from the Bible or history where the Jews are to use the language of the Egyptians.
Egypt is the house of bondage
Exd 13:14 And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What [is] this? that thou shalt say unto him, By strength of hand the LORD brought us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage:
Exd 13:3 And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this [place]: there shall no leavened bread be eaten.
Another one.
19 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying: Blessed art thou, Nephi, because of thy faith, for thou hast sought me diligently, with lowliness of heart.
20 And inasmuch as ye shall keep my commandments, ye shall prosper, and shall be led to a land of promise; yea, even a land which I have prepared for you; yea, a land which is choice above all other lands.
21 And inasmuch as thy brethren shall rebel against thee, they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord.
I put this down because according to the Bible, there is only one promised land and the Jews are in it. There is never any mention of any other people group, including Jews having a second promised land.
Deu 6:3
Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do [it]; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
This is not a huge deal in the sense of a salvation issue, but it is a problem just the same.
1 Nephi 5:19 19 Wherefore, he said that these plates of brass should never perish; neither should they be dimmed any more by time. And he prophesied many things concerning his seed.
1 Nephi 6:1
1 And now I, Nephi, do not give the genealogy of my fathers in athis part of my record; neither at any time shall I give it after upon these bplates which I am cwriting; for it is given in the record which has been kept by my dfather; wherefore, I do not write it in this work.
I only bring these up because you never see any accounts in the Bible being kept on metal plates, plus we have the dead sea scrolls but we do not have any of these plates as evidence.
Deuteronomy 31:24-26
And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
Nehemiah 8:8
So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused [them] to understand the reading.
Here is a problem.
1 Nephi 6:4
4 For the fulness of mine intent is that I may persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and be saved.
The reason this is a major problem and contradiction is because God created the nation of Israel to bring people to Him. If you were not a Jew then you were a Gentile, and the best you could do was convert, then enter the court of the Gentiles. So, unless you can prove from the Bible that Nephi is/was a true Jew, what he said cannot be true. God would not tell him this. In the Bible, God did use Gentiles, but not for that purpose.
Isa 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Here is a contradiction.
10 And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.
Show me from the Bible about 3 days of darkness being a sign.
To this one I say, "Really?"
7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.
The Bible does not teach this, Read 1st John 1:8-9
Here are a bunch of verses that contradict the Bible because they mention the "Church" And according to the Bible the Church did not appear until Jesus created it when he walked among us, yet the BoM mentions the Church and all these mentions are hundreds of years before Jesus was even born.
Mosiah 25:22 And thus, not with standing there being many churches they were all one church, yea, even the church of God; for there was nothing preached in all the churches except it were repentance and faith in God.
Mosiah 26:22 22 For behold, this is my church; whosoever is baptized shall be baptized unto repentance
Alma 1:7 And it came to pass as he was going, to preach to those who believed on his word, he met a man who belonged to the church of God, yea, even one of their teachers; and he began to contend with him sharply, that he might lead away the people of the church; but the man withstood him, admonishing him with the words of God.
Alma 4:4-5,9
4 And they began to establish the church more fully; yea, and many were baptized in the waters of Sidon and were joined to the church of God; yea, they were baptized by the hand of Alma, who had been consecrated the high priest over the people of the church, by the hand of his father Alma.
5 And it came to pass in the *seventh year of the reign of the judges there were about three thousand five hundred souls that united themselves to the church of God and were baptized. And thus ended the seventh year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi; and there was continual peace in all that time.
9 And thus, in this eighth year of the reign of the judges, there began to be great contentions among the people of the church; yea, there were envyings, and strife, and malice, and persecutions, and pride, even to exceed the pride of those who did not belong to the church of God.
There are more verses about the Church, but this gets the point across.
Mat 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
How about this? Alma 7:14
14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again
Jesus spoke about being born again, prior to that it was never mention in the Bible, I suspect LDS will blow this off, but its funny how things Jesus said are being said by people that lived before He did, and were never mentioned by the Prophets in the OT.
Here is a big problem. Alma 13:18-19
18 But Melchizedek having exercised mighty faith, and received the office of the high priesthood according to the holy order of God, did preach repentance unto his people. And behold, they did repent; and Melchizedek did establish peace in the land in his days; therefore he was called the prince of peace, for he was the king of Salem; and he did reign under his father.
19 Now, there were many before him, and also there were many after wards, but none were greater; therefore, of him they have more particularly made mention.
According to the Bible, Melchizedek had no mother or father.
Hebrews 7:1-3
For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
The problem with this verse is, the scriptures were not open to everyone and anyone. They were only for the Jews, and the Gentiles did not have the word of God. Plus unlike when this was stated in the book of Acts, in Acts 17:11. At that time, they had the entire OT to go back and search. At this time, they had even less time to look back over.
Alma 17:2 Now these sons of Mosiah were with Alma at the time the angel first appeared unto him; therefore Alma did rejoice exceedingly to see his brethren; and what added more to his joy, they were still his brethren in the Lord; yea, and they had waxed strong in the knowledge of the truth; for they were men of a sound understanding and they had searched the scriptures diligently, that they might know the word of God.
Act 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Jesus was not around until the NT, so that's a problem.
Alma 19:29 And it came to pass that she went and took the queen by the hand, that perhaps she might raise her from the ground; and as soon as she touched her hand she arose and stood upon her feet, and cried with a loud voice, saying: O blessed Jesus, who has saved me from an awful hell! O blessed God, have mercy on this people!
Is this Aaron the Brother of Moses?
Alma 21:9
9 Now Aaron began to open the scriptures unto them concerning the coming of Christ, and also concerning the resurrection of the dead, and that there could be no redemption for mankind save it were through the death and sufferings of Christ, and the atonement of his blood.
Either way, it does not really matter because before Jesus came, His coming was a mystery and the prophets did not understand what was going on.
1Peter 1:10-12 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
Part 2 coming later, Rick B
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27 comments:
Your list is too long to really respond to point by point. If I had unlimited time, I probably COULD refute most of your points, but I don't have unlimited time. So I'll settle for shooting down your first point about how Israelites didn't use Egyptian.
The claim that Israelites would not use Egyptian is clearly false. By the ninth to sixth centuries before Christ, Israelites used Egyptian numerals mingled with Hebrew text. The Papyrus Amherst 63 contains a text of Psalms 20:2-6 written in Aramaic (the language of Jesus) using Egyptian characters. This text was originally dated to the second century B.C., but this has since been extended to the 4th century B.C.
And excerpt from John A. Tvedtnes, "Jewish and Other Semitic Texts Written in Egyptian Characters," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 5/2 (1996): 156–163:
"More significant, however, was an ostracon uncovered at Arad in 1967. Dating "toward the end of the seventh century B.C.," it reflects usage from shortly before 600 B.C., the time of Lehi. The text on the ostracon is written in a combination of Egyptian hieratic and Hebrew characters, but can be read entirely as Egyptian. Of the seventeen words in the text, ten are written in [Egyptian] hieratic and seven in Hebrew. However, all the words written in Hebrew can be read as Egyptian words, while one of them, which occurs twice, has the same meaning in both Egyptian and Hebrew.19 Of the ten words written in hieratic script, four are numerals (one occurring in each line).20 One symbol, denoting a measure of capacity, occurs four times (once in each of the four lines), and the remaining Egyptian word occurs twice. Thus, while seventeen words appear on the ostracon, if one discounts the recurrence of words, only six words are written in hieratic (of which four are numerals), and six in Hebrew."
Not only that, but ancient Jews have translated their ancient texts into the languages of their enemies on numerous occasions - such as Arabic, or Greek.
Just thought I'd share that with you. Good luck with the rest of your arguments.
Seth, I love how you try and prove your point by claiming Mormon authors back you up, of course they will say that. They lie about so much other stuff, why not this also. Rick b
And Rick, I love how you don't even bother to look at all the NON-MORMON sources they cited in their book.
They didn't invent these facts out of thin air. They got them from non-Mormon archeologists.
You are clearly incapable of addressing the real scholarship here, so you feel the need to fall back on something you feel competent to do - shoot the messenger.
Tell you what, go research the actual Papyrus Amherst 63.
When you're done, maybe then you'll actually have something useful to contribute to the discussion.
Did not realize you were back posting.
Good for you.
Really!? I mean come on. It seems like you spend a good amount of your time trying to tear down another religion's spiritual strongholds. What have the Mormons done to you? It seems to me that if you spent more of your time spreading the word of God as you see it, then we would all be better off. Religions attacking other religions is one of the silliest and most wasteful things ever. Work so that people may see how great life can be once you establish a personal relationship with God. This is essentially just rubbish. It is similar to trying to convince an atheist that God does exist, which would probably be a better use of your time.
I in no way intended to attack you or verbally assault you in saying what I did in the previous paragraph. It is just that being Mormon myself I constantly run into people who are more concerned with trying to convince me how wrong my religion is that they fail to see that I love our Lord and savior. I do not force my beliefs on anyone or tell anyone else they are wrong, especially if they themselves believe in God.
On a side note... I love Kung-Fu movies. Seven Samurai is an amazing movie. I also love martial arts. Namely Judo, and BJJ. I have a friend who fights in the UFC. I also love to cook and think that it is awesome that you are a baker. I would really enjoy being your friend, but in light of the fact that I am Mormon would you be my friend? If we ever hung out could we simply rejoice in God and how greatly he has affected our lives and cast our differences aside?
All in all, I truly do wish you the best and really do hope that we can become friends. May God continue to bless you!
Mason, Let me reply back to you by working backwords.
You said On a side note... I love Kung-Fu movies. Seven Samurai is an amazing movie. I also love martial arts. Namely Judo, and BJJ. I have a friend who fights in the UFC. I also love to cook and think that it is awesome that you are a baker. I would really enjoy being your friend, but in light of the fact that I am Mormon would you be my friend? If we ever hung out could we simply rejoice in God and how greatly he has affected our lives and cast our differences aside?
All in all, I truly do wish you the best and really do hope that we can become friends. May God continue to bless you!
I am really busy, I am a full time college student, working 2 part time jobs, have a food blog, you might like it, it is, www.coffeehouse-journal.blogspot.com
I am working on a wedding cake for a friend for this weekend and have a wife and 3 kids who are all home schooled. I will reply more to you on the other stuff later.
As for being friends, I really have noticed with the vast majority of LDS, It is not so much can I be friends with you, but can you be friends with me?
Go over the comments made by former posters, a guy was replying named wer62, he is hard core LDS, we became somewhat of online friends, we debated hard core, but emailed each other in private, we showed care and concern about each others family and he even stood up and defended me when a person came onto his blog and accused me of something close to rape.
A women claimed she knew me back about 14 15 years ago, claimed I worked with her and brought a 6 pack of beer to work, she drank it and I supposdly took advantage of her. Wer even questioned her on it and she kept coming up empety on facts.
Then I had a talk in person with 2 LDS members, I made it clear exactly where I stood and pulled no punches, One member hated me, the other liked me so much that we became friends. we were meeting ata friends house, the LDS member who liked me was so sick with the flu called me asked me if I could pick him up at his house and bring him to our friends house to talk.
We had very hot and spicy food and martial arts in commen, so I gave him some of my dry hot spice, a gift card for 25 dollars to Bufflow wild wings so he could take the blazin wing challange, and he sent me photos of him and 2 partners.
We wrote back and forth for a while, but I suspect after he never returned a letter to me, his "Higher up's" put a stop to it. I still have all his letters and photo's to this day.
I later ran into 2 more missionarys at my house and told them the story, they said he is a legend in the mormon circles because of our friendship, they said he finally moved back to Californa.
So yes I can be friends with LDS, Its more a matter of they wont be friends with me becausde we disagree. Now let me ask you this? What if I told you I listen to your prophets and presidents and am doing exactly as they said. How would you handle that? Get back to me and then we will go from their. Rick b
Mason, I'm going to guess and say you are a liar and trouble maker that could care less about truth and only want to believe what you want to believe.
You came here pretty much telling me I am wrong and you want to be my friend, yet how can we be friends if you never write back. You can say, well I'm busy, well so am I, I have a wife and 3 kids, 2 part time jobs and a full time student in college for starts. I can find time to reply to you, but what the point if you ignore what I say anyway.
These things give you guys a bad name, and you wonder why I/we christians accus eyou guys of being dishonest. Rick b
Hey Rick
so as you can probable tell I just found your blog and i love talking about religion and Christ So sorry you have to go through like 4 blogs of mine but going down the problems
1. Truth is there is a good chance that the upper class of the Israeli community who knew how to write Egyptian yes they were commanded to leave Egypt but we know that the kingdom of Israel had a long relationship with Egypt trading and other things so someone had to know how to write and they spent along time being slaves so some of them probable learnt how to write and lets be honest if all i have to do is draw a picture or symbol for a sentence I'd probable be pretty motivated to learn how. But there is no proof just pure subjection
2. Was the garden of Eden a Promise land also the Bible does not state as far as I know but feel free to refer me to a verse that there is only one land of promise in fact most of the time it is referred to as a land of promise not THE land of promise
3. Your right you don't but plates of metal have been found used in other places
4. It is not just the jews it is the whole house of Israel of which the jews only consist of 1/12 not really important though but The BOM states that Nephi is of the house of Israel no you are not going to find proof of that from the Bible seeing as how Nephi is not mentioned but that does not really affect the claim because if the book is true then nephi is an Israelite.
5. Again it is not in the Bible different people get different signs the wise men did not see angels as far as we know they just saw the star
6. I'm not sure how the Bible does not teach this? clarification would be appreciated.
7. As for the references to the church i don't see that as a problem its referring to the unit of gatherers
8. John the baptist baptised people which I hope we can all agree on that he most likely told people what they were doing being born of the water so they did know before Christ taught.
9. The reference to me seems to be talking about ruling under his Father in Heaven if hes the king of a city, country he does not rule under any earthly man that would make him a prince.
10. Again we believe they were of the house of Israel
11 So maybe they had the name revealed to them or she had an experience like Saul where Christ comes and introduces himself because he has that power
12 Different Aaron and yes it does matter the OT does speak of the Messiah you have to remember that most of the BOM is written after the events Mormon brings it all together and abridges it hundreds of years after they say Christ came. So it could be that Aaron said Messiah when he taught and Mormon changed it to the title that he knew him best by. I know this seems a little contradictory to the above statement but also when she calls him Jesus Mormon could have just taken the name she used and replaced it with Jesus
John said
1. Truth is there is a good chance that the upper class of the Israeli community who knew how to write Egyptian yes they were commanded to leave Egypt but we know that the kingdom of Israel had a long relationship with Egypt trading and other things so someone had to know how to write and they spent along time being slaves so some of them probable learnt how to write and lets be honest if all i have to do is draw a picture or symbol for a sentence I'd probable be pretty motivated to learn how. But there is no proof just pure subjection
Well John, your wrong, the Jews did not use or write in the language, you even said their is no proof, so unless you can provide evidence, then I guess it shows your wrong, and I know for a fact since I meet and spoke with many Jews about this, and unless they lied they never wrote or used it either. Also their is no such thing as "reformed Egyptian language" and that is a proven fact that even the most reputable Mormon scholars know as fact. Not looking good for your belief in a false prophet.
John said
2. Was the garden of Eden a Promise land also the Bible does not state as far as I know but feel free to refer me to a verse that there is only one land of promise in fact most of the time it is referred to as a land of promise not THE land of promise
John, you said, was the garden of Edan a promise land? Did you read the Bible? If so did you really read it in a serious manner? Go back and read it again, no really go back and read it again John. The Bible CLEARLY TELLS US, Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden of Edan and then an Angel was put in front of the entrance to the garden so Adam and Eve could not enter it again, and that Angel had a flaming sword to make sure they did not enter. Also after the flood took place, that destroyed the entire earth, so that would include the garden of Edan. Now if you going to say the Bible mentions more than one promise land, then it is upon you to show evidence, please provide chapter and verse. The Bible only speaks of One promised land, so if you saying their is two or more then it's upon you to show it, but we both know you cannot.
John said
3. Your right you don't but plates of metal have been found used in other places
Name the places and give evidence of metal plates being used, also it was your prophet that said these plates will never diminish, why is it God preserved the dead sea scrolls as evidence of his eternal word and people can sea and handle them, yet if the BoM was/is true, then I would think God would provide evidence with the plates since so many people deny the BoM and so many questions have arose over the years about the BoM being true.
John said
Your basing your information upon the idea that IF THE BoM is true, thats A BIG "IF". Sadly the BoM is not true and much evidence states it is not true. Also you said You cannot prove your postion from the Bible, That is also not Good.
John said
5. Again it is not in the Bible different people get different signs the wise men did not see angels as far as we know they just saw the star
You say it's not in the Bible, well then How can you prove it is true? According the the Bible their were over 300 prophecy's about the death of Jesus, Where he would be born, what people would say to Him and do to Him before and during his crucifixion. So why would 3 days of darkness be left out? Also why would it be left out of the Bible telling the Jews about it, but would be added to some piece of literature given to a group of people who would not see His death? That makes no sense, plus their is no record in history of three days of darkness at the same time Jesus died.
John said
6. I'm not sure how the Bible does not teach this? clarification would be appreciated.
You need to be a little more specif and quote what I said since I am not sure exactly what part your talking about.
John said
7. As for the references to the church i don't see that as a problem its referring to the unit of gatherers
I thought I was pretty clear, but let me say it again. In the Bible Jesus says, I will build my Church upon this Rock, Up until this point the Church Did not exist, so How can the BoM mention something as existing when it does not? Up until Jesus created the Church it did not exist, so how could it have existed hundreds of Years before Jesus was Born and created it?
John said
8. John the baptist baptised people which I hope we can all agree on that he most likely told people what they were doing being born of the water so they did know before Christ taught.
First off, it's like the Church Issue, How can it be taught in the BoM before Jesus even taught it, yet the BoM claims it as if Jesus taught it. Also being born of water is not referring to baptism. Before your born your mothers water breaks, Thats being born of water.
John said
9. The reference to me seems to be talking about ruling under his Father in Heaven if hes the king of a city, country he does not rule under any earthly man that would make him a prince.
You missed the point completely, The Bible says He had no Mother or Father, and the BoM says he does, which one is correct, they cannot both be correct if one says He did and the other says He did not.
John said
10. Again we believe they were of the house of Israel
Well you need to provide evidence of this, Simply saying you believe it to be true does not make it so.
I could say I believe your really a pink unicorn not a guy named John, but with out evidence it does not make it so.
John said
11 So maybe they had the name revealed to them or she had an experience like Saul where Christ comes and introduces himself because he has that power
Again you need to provide evidence of this, Sadly you cannot and I know from past experience You wont even try.
John said
12 Different Aaron and yes it does matter the OT does speak of the Messiah you have to remember that most of the BOM is written after the events Mormon brings it all together and abridges it hundreds of years after they say Christ came. So it could be that Aaron said Messiah when he taught and Mormon changed it to the title that he knew him best by. I know this seems a little contradictory to the above statement but also when she calls him Jesus Mormon could have just taken the name she used and replaced it with Jesus
It is contradictory and you again have zero evidence of this.
Rick, did you even read my first comment on this thread?
Obviously, from your most recent comment, you didn't.
I did reply back to you and you then replied back to me. I have been really busy lately and figured you were done and gone. I spoke with some Jews and they said they did not use it. At the very least I will be going over seas this November to Visit Israel for two weeks. I will take tons of pictures as evidence and maybe if possible Video. I will ask the hard core religious Jews over their about this topic.
At the very least even if your correct and I am wrong, The issue of the Reformed Egyptian language is still evidence enough that JS was a fraud since no evidence can be provide that it is real. That is one topic thats been debated much. I have stated on this blog before and even wrote John the newest guy to post, I am very active on the Answeringlds blog.
www.answeringlds.com
I am under the name Rick_the_Hammer
If your interested, "Honestly" I doubt you are, you can find me and many ex-mormons and even active mormons debating over their. Plus many mormons are unable or unwilling to answer many honest and hard questions their on that blog. I think you would find yourself unable to reply to much their.
But then again I know from experience many LDS like yourself always say, I could and can answer all your questions, I just either dont have time or dont want to. So only time will tell where you stand, I will either see you reply their or I wont.
I honestly expect you either wont, or you will stay very briefly and reply to a question or two then never come back.
Well Rick, you didn't address the first points I raised. So why should I bring up more, if you're just going to ignore them?
Whether or not MODERN Jews use Egyptian is, of course, totally irrelevant - since the real question is whether Jews from 600 BC might have used it. I have provided evidence - from NON-MORMON scholars that they did. And you responded with....
Well, nothing actually.
I'm really not interested in forums like the one you mentioned, or CARM, or exmormon.org since all of them tend to aggressively moderate any faithful Mormon activity over there.
CARM for instance, will ban any Mormon who comes on with comments they are not intellectually equipped to deal with. The only Mormon activity they allow on their forums is the most stupid Mormons - just to make themselves look better by comparison. But when a Mormon becomes too much of a challenge for them, they will almost always ban them - without fail.
Oh, and your assertion that ancient people didn't write on metal plates is also false. See here:
http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Metal_plates
And please note that the article on that link quotes extensively from a NON-MORMON scholar.
Seth, I think you better re-read what I wrote.
I never said metal plates were never used to write upon, I said you dont see that in the Bible. Thats different than what I said. Also You can blow me off if you like, But when you die and find out your following a false prophet, God will not say, well I forgive you because Rick was wrong about language.
I dont see any real effort from you to say, well I think your wrong, and you admitted you could be wrong, but here is evidence for the issue of reformed Egyptian, You know as well as I do that it does not and never has existed.
So I might be wrong on a minor issue, but the issue your wrong on proves your prophet was a false prophet.
Then as far as the other forms go, The one I am on gives LDS lots of leeway, But as to the rest, I dont know how they run or if they do as you say. I only know on the one I mentioned if your really as smart as you think you are, they would welcome you there since Many a "smart" LDS member has posted a lot there, but then when they were always welcome, but then they left on there own accord once they started getting into questions they could not answer them.
But if you still choose to make excuses then thats your choice.
Funny how you say I really replied with nothing. It's funny how LDS are quick to point out if I cannot answer them or feel I cannot answer them, but slow to admit when they cannot answer me. Like the reformed Egyptian for example.
Seth,
Before I forget, let me remind you that when you said you dont like replying on so called forum's because they are unfair, while that might be true, and honestly I dont doubt it for a minute. I know not all are like that, but on the other hand, if you as a mormon are honest, you will admit that LDS treat Christians they same way.
There are many LDS forums that treat Christians the way you claim you were treated. FairLDS board comes to mind. I have over 700 posts on that board. over 500 under the name Rick B. I dont recall what happened, I think I lost my pass word or something and needed to set up a new account under a new name.
I have about 200 under my new name, I saw many Christians treated in an unfair and hateful manner. And I meet LDS who refuse to go to that site because of the bad name that LDS make for themselves. So it works both ways.
I know this thread has been dead for a while but Rick.... If you want to make claims don't back them up by hear-say. Saying you've talked with modern Jews who say they don't use Egyptian is not only irrelevant, it's completely insubstantial. If you've got something to say, back it up or quiet down. Fact: ancient Jews did write in Egyptian (see Seth's citations). Tell me why that non-LDS source isn't credible before you post any more claims. No temper tantrums please. We'll go through your points one by one, but you have yet to address Seth's first remark...
Chris,
Like it or not I am not wasting my time on this topic anymore. The way I see it is like this.
Lets just say the LDS are correct and I am wrong, big deal. What does that prove? Does it prove the BoM is true because the Jews used Egyptian language to write with? No it does not prove the BoM to be true, any more than if I am right and LDS are wrong.
That does not prove the BoM to be false. I see on many Websites and Blogs where people share the gospel with Mormons, the mormons dodge the vast majority of hard questions that are real honest questions and really matter.
Like if the BoM teaches the apostle John and his 3 friends never tasted death and are walking the earth till Jesus comes back, then it is impossible for their to have been a great apostasy.
This would mean the BoM IS FALSE. Or the supposed battle where around 2 million people died, and it supposedly took place in NY. Yet due to the severe lack of evidence, the battle ground keeps moving.
Or JS having 9 first vision accounts and they all contradict each other. What about the BoM being translated from reformed Egyptian language? Their is no evidence that language even exists, and if you claim their is, you will be the first ever to come forth with it and I know many people who would want the evidence it exists.
Now if you reply back and say, these are all easy questions to answer, then please by all means help you fellow LDS brethren out and come visit the Blog I currently reply at almost daily. Mormon coffee.
www.answeringlds.org
I see many mormons who dodge these types of questions and many more, They simply have no answers, and typically reply with, You guys are wrong or are twisting the facts, yet when we ask for true and honest answers, we get nothing. Many mormons come, throw out a name or something and leave.
Yet when they do reply, they reply to questions like the one you replied to. I honestly feel since these questions are really of no real value since they neither prove or disprove anything, then mormons tend to go after those questions because in my mind they feel they won a battle if they can claim they are correct. Rick
I see you're deleting comments you can't handle again Rick.
Which is what they do over at your recommended blog Mormon Coffee as well, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
Unfortunately, Google subscriptions post the comments before you can delete them. So they're still out there.
What did I delete?
Seth,
If you claim I delete comments that you feel I cannot handle then please feel free to provide evidence and give me them, then tell me what topic they came from.
I can give you topic I wrote with lots of comments that say hateful things about me or some serious reply's where I went back and forth and all comments, good, bad or ugly are still their.
I can also direct you to a mormon on my blog who said I was wrong, and I came back and said, yep your right I was wrong, I'm sorry I mad a mistake.
Plus if you feel you LDS are so upstanding and honest, then tell me why FAIRLDS boards have some real hateful LDS their who suppress the Christians to the point even some LDS have said that board is unfair and refuse to post their. Or why LDS teach a different gospel than Christians, but then say they are christian? Yet reuse for us Christians to teach our gospel yet claim we are mormon? Or claim FLDS, and RLDS are not allowed to claim they are Mormon yet they believe the BoM and the teachings of the old prophets.
Or why the LDS keep sanitizing their books and removing things and never being upfront and honest about it? O-yea, they dont and I'm just making this stuff up because thats what I do, right? A least according to you.
Seth,
One last reply, You accuse me of removing comments I dont like. So if I do that as You claim, tell me why I would not remove you accusing me openly of something? You mean I would remove a comment I dont like or cant handle, but wont remove you accusing me of doing that. So everyone who comes here will see me leaving a comment supposedly doing something like deleting replys, but I dont delete you accusing me. Funny how that works.
So what happened to Chris F.'s comment then Rick?
Oh, there it is.
For some reason, it wasn't showing up in the blog comments and I assumed you deleted it.
Well you assumed I did something, Then if you assumed I did that, I am guessing their are no other comments that you feel I deleted. And if there are, then please tell me what they are.
As far as MC goes, I know that the few times they deleted something was when it was a personal attack, or name calling etc. Yet I do not run that blog and I have no say in it, I am only a poster on the blog. So if you have issues with them, take it up with them.
They did once not post something of mine, I asked why and they told me. I felt them explaining why was fair.
Also I assume you either are Chris, or now him, how else would you know he posted something and it was not up as fast as you thought.
Because I get instant email updates of every comment made on this thread. I subscribed to it way back when you started this conversation.
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