Part two will cover the issue of Coffee, tea, tobacco, hot drinks in general, The 3rd part will cover the rest. I gave this break down so if you have questions in part one, that will cover things in part 2 or 3, then I ask for you to please wait till then. I am thinking this will turn into a long topic, so that was why I decide to go with 3 parts instead.
First, let me put out the Word Of Wisdom for everyone to read. Not everyone has the benefit of owning a copy of D and C. WoW
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833. HC 1: 327–329. As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently he inquired of the Lord concerning it. This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result. The first three verses were originally written as an inspired introduction and description by the Prophet.
1–9, Use of wine, strong drinks, tobacco, and hot drinks proscribed; 10–17, Herbs, fruits, flesh, and grain are ordained for the use of man and of animals; 18–21, Obedience to gospel law, including the Word of Wisdom, brings temporal and spiritual blessings.
1 A Word OF Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—
2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—
3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.
4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—
5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.
7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.
10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.
12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.
14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;
15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.
16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—
17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.
18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;
19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;
20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.
21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.
We read this account given by Brigham Young in the JoD.
The first school of the prophets was held in a small room situated over the Prophet Joseph's kitchen.... When they assembled together in this room after breakfast, the first they did was to light their pipes, and, while smoking, talk about the great things of the kingdom, and spit all over the room, and as soon as the pipe was out of their mouths a large chew of tobacco would then be taken. Often when the Prophet entered the room to give the school instructions he would find himself in a cloud of tobacco smoke. This, and the complaints of his wife at having to clean so filthy a floor, made the Prophet think upon the matter, and he inquired of the Lord relating to the conduct of the Elders in using tobacco, and the revelation known as the Word of Wisdom was the result of his inquiry (Journal of Discourses, vol. 12, p.158)
It would apper to me, and this is simply my MERE OPINION. I think instead of JS telling everyone to stop spitting Tobacco on the floor, he claims God spoke to him on this sugject. Even if God really did speak to him about this, it still is strange that we go from a simple non-command to a serious command years later.
Well we read in verse 2: 2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days
It says that this was not a commandment. Yet it turns into one around 18 years or so after it was first reveled. If this really was given by the Lord, why does it not start out as a command, but years later turn into one? Why is it God simply could not start it out as a command? I ask in light of the verse found in Alma 41:8
8 Now, the decrees of God are unalterable; therefore, the way is prepared that whosoever will may walk therein and be saved.
Then as a result of this so called command, People can be kept out of the temple and possibly be denied entrance into the celestial kingdom, if they do not obey the WoW. Because of this, I want to ask, Why was this WoW not given as one of the ten commandments or at least mentioned by Jesus in the Bible or the BoM?
We even read faithful LDS members cannot hold certain offices if the deny or do not obey the WoW.
History of the Church 2:34-35 reported this in February 1834: "The president opened the Council by prayer...The Council then proceeded to try the question, whether disobedience to the Word of Wisdom was a transgression sufficient to deprive an official member from holding office in the Church, after having it sufficiently taught him. Councilors Samuel H. Smith, Luke S. Johnson, John S. Carter, Sylvester Smith, John Johnson and Orson Hyde, were called to speak upon the case then before the Council. After the Councilors had spoken, the President proceeded to give the decision: No official member in this Church is worthy to hold an office, after having the Word of Wisdom properly taught him, and he, the official member, neglecting to comply with or obey it; which decision the Council confirmed by vote."
I find it really sad that even an LDS member feels, us Non-LDS notice the hypocrisy of LDS members not obeying the WoW.
The hypocrisy of the membership was even admitted by LDS Apostle Orson Pratt who once stated, "I do not wonder that the world say that the Latter-day Saints do not believe their own revelations. Why? Because we do not practice them. Journal of Discourses 17:104
Well if the LDS admit they dont keep them and you must in order to enter the temple, then did God really give this WoW? Rick b
21 comments:
You said: Well if the LDS admit they dont keep them and you must in order to enter the temple, then did God really give this WoW?
Your statement generalizes ALL LDS members into the category of disobedience to the WofW. This is not the case. There are those who do not obey the commandment, just as there are members of other Christian faiths that do not obey the 10 commandments. It does not change the facts.
You also said Even if God really did speak to him about this, it still is strange that we go from a simple non-command to a serious command years later.
Why is it strange? When Jesus Christ completed the Law of Moses, we are no longer commanded to sacrifice animals. You have even said in previous posts, God can do whatever he choses.
You said Why was this WoW not given as one of the ten commandments or at least mentioned by Jesus in the Bible or the BoM?
And you still do not see the need for modern revelation? Sometimes the people are not ready, or God does not want to bring it to the attention of his children until there is a need to address it.
For example, would you start telling your young 4-5 year old to not have sexual relations until they are married? Of course not, they do not even know what sex is (most of the time). You wait until they are mature enough to understand. Otherwise, you spark their interest early in something they shouldn't even have to worry about until they are older.
Better yet, your question is better asked of God. He is the only one that can answer it. What I find sad is how often you constantly question God and his motives for his children.
Chuck, You said Better yet, your question is better asked of God. He is the only one that can answer it. What I find sad is how often you constantly question God and his motives for his children.
I do not question God, I question your prophet and your false religion. God tells us in the Bible to search the Scriptures and not to be ignoret. If I do as God said in these two areas, you say I question God. I guess I can either ask questions or have a blind faith.
Then you said And you still do not see the need for modern revelation? Sometimes the people are not ready, or God does not want to bring it to the attention of his children until there is a need to address it.
The problem as I said before is, the fact modern revelaition is very confusing, and your prophets cannot even agree on issues.
Then you said Why is it strange? When Jesus Christ completed the Law of Moses, we are no longer commanded to sacrifice animals. You have even said in previous posts, God can do whatever he choses.
One problem is this, I really do not think you know your bible, but then I know we will never agree either. In the OT, Only the Jews had animal sacrifices, the rest of the people, you and me, are gentiles, we did not need animals for sacrifce. Then the issue of we no longer keep the ten commandments, Did you not read what Jesus said? Jesus said that the ten commandments are summed up in, love God and love you neighbor.
If we do this we fufil the ten commandments.
Then as to LDS not keeping all the WoW, BY smoked and drank, JS did the same, If the prophets who recived the WoW cannot keep it why should the others? And if you want to take the time and go through the FairLDS arcives, you will find a topic on the WoW.
Many LDS on that board speak about not keeping the WoW and how the leaders do not ask them if they keep it, they seem to simply over look it. More LDS than you care to think break it. Rick b
You always say I do not question God, I question your prophet and your false religion. God tells us in the Bible to search the Scriptures and not to be ignoret. If I do as God said in these two areas, you say I question God. I guess I can either ask questions or have a blind faith to everything. I guess that's one way of looking at things you can't understand.
I am not certain why you claim The problem as I said before is, the fact modern revelaition is very confusing, and your prophets cannot even agree on issues.
Do you even understand Jesus said that the ten commandments are summed up in, love God and love you neighbor.
It's not just the two phrases. He said that to trip up the Pharisees, and you are falling into the same misunderstanding the Pharisees did.
The first four commandments deal with loving God. The last six deal with loving your neighbor. Jesus was saying that all 10 commandments are equally important Rick.
You said Then as to LDS not keeping all the WoW, BY smoked and drank, JS did the same, If the prophets who recived the WoW cannot keep it why should the others?
The word of wisdom was not made a commandment until 1851.
You said they seem to simply over look it. More LDS than you care to think break it.
It is not simply overlooked. Just because someone from the LDS Faith does not obey, does not mean it is overlooked. As far as caring, I don't. Salvation is personal. They do not affect my salvation, they have but to answer for their own mistakes. So I don't really think, or care to think, about who is breaking the word of wisdom. It has nothing to do with me.
You said I do not question God, I question your prophet and your false religion.
First, it is YOUR opinion that our religion is false. The fact is he is not only our prophet, he is the prophet for the entire earth. That means he is your prophet too, whether or not you accept him. He is called of God to be His mouthpiece on the earth today. So if you question him, you question God. There is no way around it. This means that when you arrive in the judgement seat before God, he will ask why you didn't heed the voice of the prophet. You will have to answer for that. Telling Jesus his prophet and church was false wont be acceptible. But good luck with that.
WEll Chuck, I guess their is no point going back and forth, your simply going to believe what you want, no matter how much evidence you read. And I believe it is you who will be sadly mistaken on the day of judgment. BUt I guess if it takes eternal damnation for you to know you were wrong, then so be it. Rick b
I am quite comfortable with the truth. I have nothing to fear. I look forward to the day I meet my saviour and account for my life. It will be a happy moment for me, as I will be reunited with my first born son I lost to cancer in 1997. Families can be together forever through the saving ordinances of the temple and the authority of the priesthood of God. I am greatful for the blessings of the Gospel and to have the ordinance of eternal marriage. It beats the whole "until death do you part," wouldn't you agree? Or are you quite happy seperating from your family when you die?
Chuck, How do you figure familys are forever?
The Bible does not teach we must be married or for that matter we will be married to enter heaven.
Then lets say you get married, have kids, you kids lives to be really old like 50 or sixty, but rejects mormonism or any religion all his life, then dies, But your faithful in every point and if your correct about your religion you enter the higest heaven,
You son will not be with you, He will be in the first heaven, Let even add, your son not only did not believe, but hates your religion, and speaks against it, or did believe but became an apostate. They are not going to be with you, so your family is not forever. Rick b
Thanks for pointing that out. You are correct. One must live accordingly to have an eternal family. And if someone in your family choses disobedience, then that family will not be forever. But that is the great thing about the plan of salvation. We all have choices.
As members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints, we have the authority of the priesthood. The same authority that was given to Peter. If you remember in Matt. 16:19, he was given the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. That is why when we are married, we are sealed by the priesthood of God, for time and all eternity, if we chose to be.
Unfortunaltely, you and your family will fall into the second category. Even in your wedding vows it said 'Until death do you part.' So you have clearly already made your choice. It's not too late to change your mind. God offers us many chances to change our ways.
By the way, does your wife know you don't necessarily care to be with her forever?
Did you ingore what Jesus taught, Or simply dont believe it?
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mar 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Then you even admited you might not have your family in heaven forever. Your right we all have choices, but if you choice means no heaven with family forever, then your wrong. Rick b
Rick, the scriptures you are quoting clarify the importance of being married while on earth. Once you are dead you will not have the chance to marry. Not during the ressurection, not after death. That is why the sealing power is such a blessing. We can be sealed for time and all eternity. We do not have to be separated after death.
Your marriage was performed by someone who does not have the power to "bind in heaven what they bind on earth." That is why at "death do you part" from your wife and family.
Thanks for the clarifying scriptures.
Chuck, You said I was (clarifying the scriptures.) All you did was as the Bible said, You twist them to your own destruction.
If you read them with more context you will read this.
Mat 22:23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
Mat 22:24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
Mat 22:25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
Mat 22:26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
Mat 22:27 And last of all the woman died also.
Mat 22:28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Notice the Sadducees never say among themselves, we know this women was married and sealed in the temple so we know our answer.
If the Jews were really teaching marriage for all of time and eterinty, then of all the times for God or Jesus to make mention of this fact, this would be the perfect time.
Notice what Jesus does not say, He does not say, the Women will have 7 husbands because she married all of them in the temple.
He does not say, Why ask me this question, you know she was married in the temple so she is sealed to her first husband.
If you were to talk to any orthadax Jew alive today, ones who only believe the OT and do not believe in Jesus or hold to the NT, They would tell you, the Temples were not used to marry people for time and etirnity.
I am not going to keep going back and forth with you over this stuff, I simply will end with what Scripture teaches about people who refuse to believe the truth.
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds;)
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous [are they], selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
2Pe 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
2Pe 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, [as] they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots [they are] and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2Pe 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam [the son] of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2Pe 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling [words] of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, [through much] wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. Rick b
The clarity of the scripture does not change. There is no marriage given in the resurrection. The marriages referred to were not marriages sealed by the priesthood authority. That is why if they are not married by the authority of the priesthood (sealed on earth), they will have no force in heaven. Thus she will be with none of them and won't be married.
As far as the commandment to marry, what you are saying is Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and SHALL cleave unto his wife" (Gen 2:24) Was a suggestion, if we feel like it, but it's not really necessary? (see also 1 Cor. 11:11)
Adam and Eve were commanded to "cleave" unto each other. To bare children. So either you are saying that it was not the commandment, or that God is ok with man having children out of wedlock.
By understanding the commandment to have children, that was given to Adam and Eve and that it applies to each of us, we can uderstand that we are commanded to marry. Marriage is the institution God recognizes between man and woman to have children.
If not, then what did God mean?
Chuck, I am not going to keep playing games with you. Ask the Jews, as I said, they will tell you you are in error. As far as marraige goes, If you want to have kids you must be married, To have sex out side of marraige is a sin, so that means having kids if not married is a sin, But as a general statment, their is no command for every man and women to be married, Some choose not to get married ever and to remain single is not a sin. Read you bible, you weill see this is the case.
And No I will not hold you hand and spoon feed you the answers, read your bible you will see. Rick b
So are you Jewish, or are you Christian?
You still didn't answer. Why can't you just give a straight answer? I have read. I still read. I will continue to read. I see it differently than you do, with or without Jewish commentary. I do not need another faith to back up my beliefs.
I am sharing why I have the belief I have using scriptures. You respond with Ask the Jews, as I said, they will tell you you are in error. That's not scripture. You are saying, without using direct language, "I don't know. Go ask someone else."
If you are so decided, then what did God mean by Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and SHALL cleave unto his wife"? (Gen 2:24)
Rick,
you might consider the fact that Adam and Eve were married BEFORE the fall. So you can see that God intended for them to be husband and wife forever and were to be one in the Lord forever in that way. "Neither is the man with out the woman nor the woman without the man in the Lord"- or so the scripture goes.
You might ask yourself who performed this ordinance of marriage BEFORE the fall? It was NOT and ordinance of man by mans authority and "until death do us part" but was performed by God and was through Gods authority- and it was forever.
One can clearly see that from the beginning man and wife were intended to be together FOREVER "in the Lord".
It is only in and through the priesthood authority of God that such a sacred ordinance can be performed to seal husband and wife together forever. Mans authority is only a civil authority and is terminated at "death do us part". Gods sealing lasts forever just like was performed for Adam and Eve BEFORE the fall.
Marriage was eternal and forever before the fall and so it will be in the eternities thanks to the atonement of Jesus Christ.
Sorry Chuck, Your Blinded spirtualy As the Bible Says I forgot.
Look, In the Case of Adam and Eve, God was only speaking to them, He was not speaking to anyothers as they were not their.
As to this verse If you are so decided, then what did God mean by Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and SHALL cleave unto his wife"? (Gen 2:24)
Man and women become one flesk as the Scripture teaches, They are no longer living with Mom and Dad or the "Parents" So they are no longer under paretanl Athourity or control. As to me saying Ask the Jews, Yet again your both blind and simply do not want the truth. You should know but you seem not to, God intendeed for the Jews throught out the OT to pass knowladge of God onto us the gentails, But they did not.
They know the OTR as well or better than anyone else as it is their History and their scriptue as well as ours. Why is it so hasrd to ask them if the temples were used for marraige? I bert it is because you know the answer to my question, They were not, plus we never see one single rec orded case of this in the Bible.
Then let me end with this. If marraige is a "law" or Commandment me must follow and obey laid out by God, then why was the Apostle Paul not married? How couyld God call an unmarried man who willfully breaks his law to be an apostle? Rick b
Let me add one more thought. If marraige is required for salvation, then we have lots of problems. One is, if Kids who really believe and execpt mormoism die at an age of lets say 20, but are not married and sealed in the temple, then they cannot obtain the Higest heaven. Thats really lame.
Then if Marraige is even simply a "Law" or "Command" to do by God, then Every one including God fails due to this verse,
7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.
God is Commanding Marraige, yet Paul the Apostle was not married, Many LDS missionarys admit they may never be marraided before death. So the unmarraided fail in this part, and God fails for not getting people marraied as He commanded. But I honestly Suspect Chuck you will yet again come to the rescue of your false Religion, twist the scripture to say I am wrong and provide all the answers. Boy I would hate to be you in your upcoming Christless eterinty. The Scripture teach Different degrees of punisment, for the wicked. Rick b
Rick, in saying In the Case of Adam and Eve, God was only speaking to them, He was not speaking to anyothers as they were not their, you are basically claiming that ALL scripture is not for us, because we were not there. The 10 commandments was given the the Israelites, love God and your neighbors as yourself was given the pharisees, etc. I hope you can see the error of your statement.
As far as Paul, there is no record of his marriage, that is true, but he taught about marriage.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, ... (1 Tim. 3:2)
Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. (1 Cor. 11:11)
Why would Paul teach something and not live it?
Quoting the Book of Mormon, you said I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.
Just because you do not accept or understand the way he has preapred for us to accomplish all commandments, does not make them non-existant. He has prepared a way for us to accomplish all of his commandments.
Let's pretend for just a moment. Let's take your personal opinion: Boy I would hate to be you in your upcoming Christless eterinty. The Scripture teach Different degrees of punisment, for the wicked.
If we are saved by grace as you claim, then why would I have a Christless eternity? I accept Christ as my saviour and redeemer. I accept his atonement as the only saving power that will save me. I love God and my neighbors. Just because I do more works than what you think I should do, I will have a Christless eternity? If we are saved by grace and need no works, then why would that not include me too? If all mankind is saved by grace, and we do not have to do anything to be saved, then why would I not be included?
You even said Kids who really believe and execpt mormoism die at an age of lets say 20, but are not married and sealed in the temple, then they cannot obtain the Higest heaven. Thats really lame.
By the same token, if we are saved by grace, without works, but that only includes the people you think should make it, that's really lame too. I thought everyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their saviour is saved? So why not me?
Chuck, As I said in my replky to you oin lucifer, I will not debate you endlessy. Your to full of pride when you think I will end debate with you. My post below is simpoly ALL PURE SCRIPTURE. Twist it however you want, your going to have to answer for that. But paul states by saying I wish all men were as me, that he is not married. He states marraige is not a law or commanded for every body, and he states Virgins (Unmarried) Care more about the Lords Work, but the Married care more about their Spouce. If I dont reply, dont let your inflated ego think I cannot. I will Do as the Scripture teach, and Not cast my Pearls before Pigs and Dogs and allow you to trample them. Rick b
1Cr 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: [It is] good for a man not to touch a woman.
1Cr 7:2 Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
1Cr 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
1Cr 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
1Cr 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except [it be] with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
1Cr 7:6 But I speak this by permission, [and] not of commandment.
1Cr 7:7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
1Cr 7:8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
1Cr 7:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
1Cr 7:10 And unto the married I command, [yet] not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from [her] husband:
1Cr 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to [her] husband: and let not the husband put away [his] wife.
1Cr 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
1Cr 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
1Cr 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
1Cr 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such [cases]: but God hath called us to peace.
1Cr 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save [thy] husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save [thy] wife?
1Cr 7:17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
1Cr 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
1Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
1Cr 7:20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
1Cr 7:21 Art thou called [being] a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use [it] rather.
1Cr 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, [being] a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, [being] free, is Christ's servant.
1Cr 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
1Cr 7:24 Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.
1Cr 7:25 Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.
1Cr 7:26 I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, [I say], that [it is] good for a man so to be.
1Cr 7:27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.
1Cr 7:28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.
1Cr 7:29 But this I say, brethren, the time [is] short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;
1Cr 7:30 And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not;
1Cr 7:31 And they that use this world, as not abusing [it]: for the fashion of this world passeth away.
1Cr 7:32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:
1Cr 7:33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please [his] wife.
1Cr 7:34 There is difference [also] between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please [her] husband.
1Cr 7:35 And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.
1Cr 7:36 But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of [her] age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.
1Cr 7:37 Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.
1Cr 7:38 So then he that giveth [her] in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth [her] not in marriage doeth better.
1Cr 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
1Cr 7:40 But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.
Chuck let me add one more thing, You asked If we are saved by grace as you claim, then why would I have a Christless eternity? I accept Christ as my saviour and redeemer. I accept his atonement as the only saving power that will save me. I love God and my neighbors. Just because I do more works than what you think I should do, I will have a Christless eternity? If we are saved by grace and need no works, then why would that not include me too? If all mankind is saved by grace, and we do not have to do anything to be saved, then why would I not be included?
Read Gal 1:8-9
The answer is simple, You have a different jesus who cannot save because he is not real. You can say you follow all god teaches, but even God said, false gods cannot hear or save. You know as well as I do, the meaning behind your words differ. You jesus is the brother of lucifer, your god is an exalted man, if I am correct and the BoM is false and JS is a false prophet it matter not what they teach or say, they cannot save. That is my answer. I will not reply anymore to this topic, if that means you want to reply with a pridful glee and act or say I won, go for it, Use manulaption by saying, Rik Cannot answer, hoping I will, But I wont. No more on these topics, I provide my evidence, I will allow people to think about what was said, on both sides. Rick b
Wow! the Word of Wisdom must be a "hot" topic to have the discussion wander.
Does drinking hot drinks like Coffee, tea, and Hot Chocolate keep someone from being worthy to enter the temple to preform exalting ordinances?
Is is OK to drink coffee and tea if it just warm or cold?
Apparently. It's been a great discussion though. I think it got off topic when I bore testimony about eternal families and Rick started a new line of questioning. But that's what I love about the Gospel. It brings up great discussion and great debate.
As for your question Does drinking hot drinks like Coffee, tea, and Hot Chocolate keep someone from being worthy to enter the temple to preform exalting ordinances?
It's more than that. As members of the LDS Church, we belive that one of the many gifts we recieve from God is the gift of Free Agency. The ability to choose right and wrong, for ourselves. The spirit of the law behind the word of wisdom is to avoid anything that takes away or diminishes our ability to chose.
At the same time, it encourages us to utilize those things that God has given us to nurish and maintain healthy bodies, since our bodies are considered temples.
1 Corinthians 3
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
So to answer your question, the hot drinks refer to tea and coffee, not hot chocolate. And yes, if you break the word of wisdom, it will keep you out of the temple and from performing ordinances. Whether the drink is hot or cold.
It's not the temperature of the drink, it's the deleterious substances found in them.
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