Well Here is my reply for part 2. GRORC asked about Different translations of the Bible. Here is a link that gives information about the Bible, If you have questions on this blog site and what was posted, please ask him, he knows I provide a link and looks forward to questions.manuscripts In a little more general sense, I believe some translations are created simply to make money. Is that wrong? Yes I believe marketing the gospel is wrong. But some translations were created because not everyone has the time to learn Greek, Hebrew, Latin or other languages. But to be fair, JS did teach the German translation was more accurate, So why don't the LDS use the German translation instead of the KJV?
Briefly take the KJV of the Bible, honestly some people have a hard time reading the old KJV, And all of the Thee's and Thou's Etc. So they made things like the NKJV. But for the LDS who might want to argue that these are not valid or Good, I would ask this, Why do the LDS read the NKJV, or the NiV, or other translations? If you think they Don't, go to the fairlds board and ask the LDS over there, they have mentioned using them many times.
Now onto the JST. Grorc said... The LDS church publishes and uses the JST translation of the Bible. Almost every member has one. I don't understand your statement to the contrary.
The reason I said what I did is this: as a general statement, the LDS members do not use the JST. As to the LDS church publishing the JST, Unless things have changed over the years, The RLDS publish the JST and Not the LDS Church. Now here are some things that I find to be problems, either with the JST or the LDS Church's use and lack of use of it, or how they word things about it. Example, some LDS feel it was a completed finished piece of work, others do not. If the LDS cannot agree as to the JST being finished or not, how can I trust it or the LDS church to get their facts correct in other areas. Also LDS members do not Accept the RLDS church as being an LDS Church. They feel the RLDS Church are nothing more than an Apostate Church. If the LDS do not Accept the RLDS Church and do view them as being Apostate or wrong in many areas, why would God tell JS to "Correct" the Bible, only to allow it to be "recorruputed" By going to any other Church than the true Church?
I am posting a Scanned Copy from the JoD vol 3, It shows BY saying the Bible is good enough just as it is. It is dated 1855, this is well after the death of JS and well after the JST was supposedly finished. So the Question is this, If JS was a "True Prophet" Of God and God told JS to Correct, alter or Fix the JS bible in any way, Why is BY downplaying it by not using it, making mention of it and even saying the Bible is Good enough as is?
Another question would be, if the Bible is not Correct in what it teaches and cannot fully be trusted to the Point where JS needed to "Correct" or "Retranslate" The Bible, Why does Jesus and the apostles Quote from it? Granted only the Old Testement was around when they Quoted from it, But JS Did "Correct" Portions of the OT. So why did God wait almost 2,000 years for JS to be born to correct the error, when Jesus or the Disciples could have corrected it?
Now when I said in part one, the LDS do not use the JST, And GRORC stated he owns a copy and uses it, I say, Good for you. But the truth is, Not every LDS owns a copy or uses it. I have NEVER in my life meet one LDS missionary who has come to my house and Bring a JST with them and use only that in place of the "Corrupted" KJV. And the TV ads only offer the KJV, Not the JST. I spent two weeks in SLC taking the entire temple tour and walking the Streets talking to people, toured the book store, looked over the Books and Bibles and BoM laying around at tables throughout the temple area for people to pick up and read, and guess what? Not once did I ever see a JST of the Bible lying around.
About 2 years ago I purposely went through Official LDS books I own, Every time I came across a Scripture that an LDS prophet, President or even Just the average Joe Mormon when they quoted or used a scripture, I looked to see whether it was the "Corrupted" and untrustworthy KJV, Or whether it was the Corrected JST. Guess what? For almost every 10 scriptures I found, maybe one was the JST, The rest were KJV. Why?
I will do this again when I get time and Document every source right down to the page number, so people can see for themselves, That the LDS tend to use the KJV or the Inspired version. So much for God Commanding JS to "Correct" a flawed Bible.
Here is something I find funny. LDS claim we must perform "Works" To help in our salvation. I claim Grace alone not works, So in the book Evidences and Reconciliations, pg 353-354 we read
It is not really correct to say that the prophet translated the Bible. Rather, he corrected errors in the Bible, and under revelation added long statements.
So either the LDS author is correct and JS "corrected" the Bible, or the Author is wrong and he must have learned this from the LDS he sits under. Also as an LDS he is simply not able to just write a book and produce it with out first having it examined. Now I point this out for this reason, in the KJV of the Bible, we read in Romans 3:28
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Now we read in the JST in Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith ALONE without the deeds of the law.
We read in the JST of romans, only one word was added to that passage to supposedly correct it, the word ALONE. Houston, we have a problem. Either we are saved by grace alone, or we are saved by grace, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO. Yet God supposedly told JS to correct the Bible, LDS Member GRORC seems to agree he did, yet this denies what he has been saying.
Another problem we have is this, JS claims that the book of Malachi is "correct" yet the angel Moroni quotes it differently. Joseph Smith history 1:36-39. So is the Prophet correct, or the Angel who told JS about the golden plates correct?
Another problem we read is this, As I quoted in part one, from the D and C, God Supposedly told JS and Sidney Rigdon to complete the JST of the Bible. But we read in the Preface to the JST it is possibly not complete. LDS over on the Fairlds board will tell you it is not complete. Where are the LDS that feel it is not complete getting there information? We read in the 1993-94 Church Almanac pg 339 under July 2 The prophet Joseph Smith finished the translation of the Bible
Then in the 2003 Church Almanac 536 again under July 2, it states JS finished the New Testament.
But sadly, the Prophet and President Joseph F. Smith feels it was not finished.
The reason that it has not been published by the Church is due to the fact that this revision was not completed...due to persecution and mobbing this opportunity never came, so that the manuscript was left with only a partial version.
Then we read in the JST pg 11
Changes made at some points in the inspired version were not followed consistently.... Some passages were corrected, but the parallel references were not corrected....Mormon authors Sperry and Van Wagoner have pointed out that the Psalms are evidence of the incompleteness of the translation.We read in Times and Seasons Vol VI pg 802 that the JST was completed.
Why is it if the JST is not really complete, have any of the so called "prophets of god" Corrected it. If it really is fully and truly corrected, why not fully use, promote and endorse it? If as these people and sources are correct, and the JST of the Bible is not complete, then God must be a failure, because not only did he commanded JS to finish the job, but this denies the teaching of 1 Nephi 3:7
7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.
Kind of strange, that the BoM claims God will not command you to do something unless He makes it possible for you to do it. But then Commands JS to COMPLETE the JST of the Bible, then allows JS to fail. Even Bruce M claims in the book Mormon Doctrine pg.383 claims the JST is not complete. Rick b
8 comments:
Unfortunately much of the life, teachings and prophecies of the Joseph Smith are difficult to study. Most of what we have about him and his teachings are from the notes, rememberings or heresay of others. This is one reason the LDS Church does not use much of what he said as "official" doctrine of the church unless it is substantiated be later prophets and revelation. (of course there are exceptions to this)
That being said.
Read this: http://jstbiblepublication.blogspot.com/
Joseph Smith was a simple man given the charge of preparing the Saints to build up the Kingdom of God anew in their time. (Whether or not you believe that is besides the point.) As a man he was definately prone to mistakes. Being a prophet of God does not mean you are impervious to such. As to the JST Translation of the Bible and its successes or failures, they can be laid at the feet of the members at the time. They were the ones given the charge to complete the translation. They were also given a charge to do many other things that they were either unable, or unwilling to do. The Lord made it quite clear that if they had enough faith in the Lord that He would take care of them. All failures in commandments or charges laid upon them are a result of their lack of faith in the Lord. This does not mean that Joseph Smith was a false prophet or the Church is incorrect.
One can liken much of this to many other prophets in the past. Moses comes to mind. He was given a charge to give the law unto the Israelites. The first time he came down from the mountain he found that they were worshiping false gods and in great iniquity. Moses then returned to the Lord and he was given a different law. They were not able to keep the Law of Christ, or the higher law, and were given what is called the law of Moses.
The inability of the Israelites to keep all of Gods commandments does not make Moses a false prophet because he wasnt able to do something that he was commanded.'
Also, Joseph Smith and the writers of the Book of Mormon cover themselves by making very clear that any mistakes in any of their works are the mistakes from the weeknesses of men and not of God.
As to the comment about not every LDS member has a compy of the JST Bible: since 1979 the church has included the JST traslations in its scriptures. The KJV bibles that the church publishes have footnotes at the bottom for all of the 'corrections' and the rest in the back. If they told you that they didnt have a copy, they were most likely mistaken. The JST is widely quoted in the church.
Now, since you brought up the topic of being saved in this post (i think you were just doing it to point out a difference in the books, but it looks like JS is advocating grace alone and then preaching something else). First of all you must understand who Paul is talking to. He is talking to baptised members of the Church of Christ. These people know the gospel and have fallen into error thinking that their ordinances and works are what saves them. The church at that time ruetienly falls into this error and the NT is rife with sermons from the Apostles trying to correct the issue. It is even a problem in the Book of Mormon and its people. I will end with this;
Why do Mormons believe we are saved by good works, when the Bible says we are saved by the grace of God?
The Book of Mormon is unequivocal on the issue of salvation by the grace of Christ. Nephi, the first prophet in the book, wrote that "there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah" (2 Nephi 2:8). His brother Jacob admonished, "remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved" (2 Nephi 10:24). The last of the Nephite scribes, Moroni, wrote, "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ . . . then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ" (Moroni 10:32-33). Moroni, like Nephi before him (2 Nephi 2:8; 31:19; see also Alma 24:10; Helaman 14:13), wrote of the importance of "relying alone upon the merits of Christ" (Moroni 6:4). Nevertheless, while the Book of Mormon stresses that only Christ brings salvation, like the New Testament, it also clearly affirms the responsibility of individuals to repent and come unto Christ and afterwards endure unto the end in keeping the commandments of God.
Jesus also emphasized the necessity of not only believing, but also repenting of our sins (Matthew 4:17; Luke 12:3, 5). He upbraided certain cities and said they were under condemnation because they did not choose to repent (Matthew 11:20-24). Jesus also required his disciples to follow his teachings and commandments (Matthew 7:24-27; Luke 6:46-49 and said that they would be rejected at the day of judgment if they did not do so (Matthew 7:21-23). While the Book of Mormon teaching that we are "saved by grace after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23), may conflict with the theology of some modern Christian groups, it is consistent with Jesus' teachings in the New Testament.
Grorc said As to the JST Translation of the Bible and its successes or failures, they can be laid at the feet of the members at the time. They were the ones given the charge to complete the translation.
Really? I gave scripture showing where God told JS to finish the job, not the other LDS members. Plus, this still does not answer the question of why some LDS believe JS did finish the job, while others, such as J.F.S. And Bruce, feel he did not finish. Two officials, Sperry and Von Wagnor, who helped write the JST, stated it was not complete. I have provided the evidence for this already in both part 1 and part 2.
Then GRORC said Moses comes to mind. He was given a charge to give the law unto the Israelites. The first time he came down from the mountain he found that they were worshiping false gods and in great iniquity. Moses then returned to the Lord and he was given a different law.
Moses was not given a different law. God wrote the law with His own hand the first time. After Moses broke the stone tablets, Moses had to write them down the next time.
Then GRORC said As to the comment about not every LDS member has a compy of the JST Bible: since 1979 the church has included the JST traslations in its scriptures. The KJV bibles that the church publishes have footnotes at the bottom for all of the 'corrections' and the rest in the back.
This is not entirely true. I own a 1920 edition Book of Mormon, an updated modern one, and an offical KJV produced by the LDS Church with the Bible dictionary in back that I bought while I was in SLC. These do not have the complete version of the JST in them, only selected verses.
The LDS missionaries I have met also confirm this. They admit the JST is found in the footnotes, but not the entire JST, only selected verses. Rick b
Hi Rick, thanks for the link. As I mentioned on a previous comment, when I think of verses that describe how grace and works function, Ephesians 2: 8-10 come to mind. From the NASB:
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
From these verses we can reason that people are not saved from sin and death, becoming citizens of the Kingdom of God by works. Rather in grace through the atoning work of Christ and the resurrection, believers are saved so they can commit good works through God's guidance forever.
God through the use of soft-determinism would mold and persuade certain people to willingly believe in the gospel and repentance should follow. People are often told in the Bible to repent and this can be a means by which God molds and persuades a person to understand they are sinful and need to trust God, turning from their sin. Although as Christians we always believe in the Lord, we are not always aware of all of our sins and therefore cannot repent of them all, although through the guidance of the Holy Spirit we should have a heart of repentance. Millard J. Erickson states that “repentance is an ineradicable part of the gospel message.” Erickson (1994: 937). It needs to be understood that because of sinful human nature, a belief in Christ and his atoning work and resurrection, and repentance from sin and any resulting good works can only belong to a person through God’s grace. I explain somewhat how Biblically and theologically because of a corrupt human nature, persons could only be saved by the grace of God, as Christ’s atoning work and resurrection is applied to the elect.
http://thekingpin68.blogspot.com/2006/08/jonathan-edwards-and-libertarian-free.html
http://thekingpin68.blogspot.com/2006/05/arminianism-and-free-will.html
ERICKSON, M. (1994) Christian Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.
Rick: Moses was not given a different law. God wrote the law with His own hand the first time. After Moses broke the stone tablets, Moses had to write them down the next time.
Yes he was given a different law. I include mormon scriptures in these references because you do it with yours. If you can use them in your arguments against the LDS faith, it is logical that I can use them to support it. Besides, the Biblical references are enough, the others just support.
Fulness of the Gospel Offered
The children of Israel were encamped at Mount Sinai for almost a year (Ex. 19:1; Num. 1:1), where Moses attempted to sanctify the people so that the Lord might appear unto them. Through three revelatory experiences instruction was given to prepare the nation. Only the worthy and purified were to participate.
The newly covenanted people were orally given the Ten Commandments by the Lord; after that, a manifestation of the power of the Lord so frightened the people that they were fearful of his appearing. (Ex. 19; Ex. 20:1–2; Deut. 5:1–28.) The fourth recorded divine communication at Sinai to Moses was the criminal and civil code for the political government of the people. (Ex. 20:22–26; Ex. 21–23.) This “law” or body of statutes was recorded by Moses and accepted by the people. (Ex. 24:1–8.)
Moses then took some of the leadership of the tribes upon the sacred mount, where the Lord revealed himself unto them. After this theophany, Moses remained to receive further direction for his people. (Ex. 24:9–18.) During this interim, the Lord gave to Moses the fulness of the priesthood blessings and ordinances for his people. (D&C 84:19–23.) In addition, complete instructions were given for the building and operation of the tabernacle that was to be a portable temple for Israel. (Ex. 25–31; D&C 124:36–38.)
Upon his return to the camp, Moses found idolatry and wickedness rampant. In anger, he broke the tables of stone that the Lord had prepared with the higher law. The idol was destroyed and offenders punished. (Ex. 32.)
Moses returned a sixth time to the holy mountain, to plead for forgiveness of his people. He received the assurance that justice would be satisfied and that the people would still be permitted to go to the Promised Land. (Ex. 32:30–35.)
The Lesser Law Given
The Lord instructed Moses to move away from the people for a time. Outside the camp where he dwelt, further instruction was received relative to his leadership in Israel. (Ex. 33; JST, Ex. 33:20–23.) Two new stone tables were to be prepared on which would be recorded a lesser law and order of priesthood and ordinances. (JST, Ex. 34:1–3; D&C 84:24–26; 1 Ne. 17:24–30.)
Moses returned a seventh known time to Mount Sinai to receive this law, known as the “law of Moses”: a law that was after the law of a carnal or temporal order of things. This Mosaic law was intended to be a “schoolmaster” to turn Israel to Christ. (Gal. 3:24; Rom. 10:4; 2 Ne. 11:4; Jacob 4:5; Mosiah 3:13–15.) It was a “law of performances and ordinances” intended to keep Israel in remembrance of God and to strengthen their faith in Christ. (Mosiah 13:30–33; Alma 25:15–16.)
Moses was also given instructions for continuing the journey to the Promised Land. (Ex. 34:4–28.) When he returned from the mount, the glory of the Lord was manifest in his countenance. (Ex. 34:29–35.) The children of Israel completed construction of the tabernacle and were organized according to tribes for encampment and travel to the land of Canaan. (Ex. 35–40; Num. 1–6, Num. 10.)
After the dedication of the tabernacle and the setting apart and organization of the Levitical Priesthood, the journey to the Promised Land resumed. (Num. 7–9; Num. 10:33–36.)
If you bought a KJV published by the LDS church the JST translation should be between the Bible Dictionary and the Gazetteer.
and for Rick and thekingpin, I understand and acknowledge the scriptures you are quoting about faith and grace. But the problem I see is that I accept those scriptures right along with the ones I am quoting you about faith being dead without works and others. You seem to be discounting them saying that your verses are more true than the others.
Hi Grorc,
"But the problem I see is that I accept those scriptures right along with the ones I am quoting you about faith being dead without works and others. You seem to be discounting them saying that your verses are more true than the others."
That is incorrect I am afraid. I am not discounting verses that mention repentance or works, but I am simply attempting to understand them in an overall Biblical context. I expressed the Biblical importance of repentance and good works. The Bible is not contradictory in the doctrine that we are saved through grace and faith, yet need to repent and should produce good works. However, once one understands the Biblical idea of sin nature and the lack of ability of persons to choose or please God on their own, it becomes clear that good works cannot contribute to salvation, but are instead a sign and result of being saved. That is a reason why the Bible has verses where it teaches that we are saved by grace and that we must repent, but it does not teach that our works save us.
As T. Carson notes, James was not teaching that we are saved by works in the sense of merit and therefore he does not contradict Paul. In the book of James, justify means to vindicate or show righteousness before God and men; in Paul, justify means to acquit the sinner in the sight of the holy God. In Paul, he is describing deeds of law, regarding merit; in James they are deeds of love and obedience. Paul was discussing works that precede faith, and James was discussing deeds within faith. James is not speaking of works in regards to the law. Carson (1986: 1541). Looking at James 2:14, James mentions that faith without works is dead in the context of feeding others and meeting their needs, it is not in the context of the law. James further, in verse 23, mentions that Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness, and was called a friend of God. James agrees with Paul in Romans 4 that God reckoned righteousness to Abraham. In Romans 4 Paul points out that Abraham was not justified by works.
It appears Biblically that:
1. Human beings have a corrupt nature and will not choose God on their own, and have no works to offer God on their own. (Romans 1-4)
2. God elects some to him, and therefore is the primary cause in salvation. (Ephesians 1)
3. This election is not by force or coercion as human belief is required. (John 3: 16)
4. Repentance is required in belief. (Matthew 4: 17) (Acts 2: 38)
5. Therefore, Christians are saved by grace through faith in the atoning work of Christ and his resurrection. This should lead to works.
(Ephesians 2: 8-10) (James)
Cheers:)
CARSON T. (1986) ‘James’, in F.F. Bruce, (ed.), The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Marshall Pickering/Zondervan.
Your doctrine of predestination is dead wrong I am afraid. This is another example of you pulling versus out of the Bible and basing a whole doctrine around them without substantiating evidence. The idea that God chooses some to be saved while not others without regards to to what they have done in this life or the previous one is a false tradition brought about by philosophers trying to reconcile the church doctrine with their own philiosophies in the 3rd and 4th century. It is clearly an addition and corruption to what Christ and the Apostles taught.
Predestination is a sectarian substitue for the true doctrine of 'foreordination'. Just as Lucifer "sought to destroy the agency of man" in the pre-existence (Moses 4:3) so through his ministers here he has taught a doctrine, based on scriptural distortions, of salvation and damnation without choice on the part of the individual. Predestination is the false doctrine that from all eternity God has ordered whatever comes to pass, having especial and particular reference to the salvation or damnation of souls. Some souls, according to this false concept, are irrevocably chosen for salvation, others for damnation; and there is said to be nothing that any individual can do to escape his predestined ingeritance in heaven or in hell as the case may be.
"Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God," say the Articles of Religion of the Anglican Churches, "whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hat constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they wich be endued with so excellent a benefit of God be called according to God's purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length by God's mercy, they attain the everlasting felicity.
"As the godly consideration of Predestination, and our Election in Christ, is full of sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable comfor to godly persons, and such as feel in themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, morifying the works of the flesh, and their earthly members, and drawing up their mind to high and geavenly things, as well because it doth greatly establish and confirm their faith of eternal Salavation to be enoyed through Christ, as because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God: So, lacking the Spirit of Christ, to have continually before their eyes the sentence of God's Predestination, is a most dangerous Downfall, whereby the Devil doth thrust them either into desperation, or into wretchlessness of most unclean living, no less perilous than desperation."
Having thus set forth a doctrine, so patently contrary to sense and reason, that men through no acts of their own are predestined either to salvation or damnation, the Articles of Religion, slmost by way of apologizing for such an absurd concept, conclude with these words: "Furthermore, we must recieve God's promises in such wise, as they be generally set forth to us in holy Scripture: and, in our doings, that Will of God is to be followed, which we have expressly declared unto us in the Word of Hod" (Book of Common Prayer, pp 665-666)
It is true that the words predestinate and predestinated are found in the KJ Bible in some of Paul's writings, but biblical revisions both in the JST and other translations from the earlier versions use the words foreordain and foreordained, which more accurately convey Paul's views. However, even as the KJV renders the passages, there is no intimation of any compulsion or denial of free agency, for one of the dictionary definitions of foreordination is predestination, meaning the prior appointment (in pre-existence) of particular persons to perform designated labors or gain particular rewards.
And since you bring up Ephesians 1. How in the world can God have us "chosen from before the foundation of the world" if we did not exist with him before we came to this world? The doctrine of a pre-existance is also well documented in the Bible.
Greetings,
"Your doctrine of predestination is dead wrong I am afraid. This is another example of you pulling versus out of the Bible and basing a whole doctrine around them without substantiating evidence."
I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. What I did was look at verses in context, and develop theology from them. There is not a heavy reliance on non-Biblical sources. The model I developed was an argument based on the use of Scripture and theology. Your primary use of non-Biblical sources in your reply demonstrates to some degree that we have a different world-view, and theological approach. As for Ephesians 1, God being infinite, eternal, and omniscient would have knowledge of persons he would save, before they existed. It is reasonable to conclude that an infinite God can reason out what will occur within a finite creation, and in fact he will simultaneously influence what shall happen, and he is called the Alpha and Omega in places such as Revelation 22: 13. I have written articles on the infinite God, and related topics on thekingpin68 which can be checked out by anyone interested.
Thanks;)
http://thekingpin68.blogspot.com/
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