Look over part 1 and see who gets let into the First heaven.
People who will attain the telestial kingdom in the afterlife include those "who received not the gospel of Christ, nor the testimony of Jesus" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:82) as well as "liars, and sorcerors, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie"
Notice, According to the Bible, these people will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God or Heaven.
1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Even the BoM never mentions these 3 different heavens or who will enter them.
Sadly the LDS build an entire doctrine around a verse or two from the BIble yet simply cannot support the view they believe from the Bible.
Do a word search on HEAVEN or HEAVEN(S) Not once in the Bible or BoM will you find a break down of these three heavens and who will go to each one. The LDS use the verses in the BIble, I Cor. 15:39-41 and teach the three degrees of glory or three heavens. But these verses do not give a definition of who goes where, only talks about three heavens. And the LDS take them out of context to build there doctrine.
1Cr 15:39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.
1Cr 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.
1Cr 15:41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.
However, the context in I Cor. 15:35-54 is not about heavens, but about the difference between our earthly mortal body and our new immortal body given us at the resurrection. Celestial and terrestrial bodies are mentioned in v. 40, but any dictionary will show that celestial means "heavenly" and terrestrial means "earthly."
Dictionary.com Defines Celestial as
ce·les·tial (s-lschl) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "celestial" [P]
adj.
1. Of or relating to the sky or the heavens: Planets are celestial bodies.
2. Of or relating to heaven; divine: celestial beings.
3. Supremely good; sublime: celestial happiness.
4. Celestial Of or relating to the Chinese people or to the former Chinese Empire.
And Terrestrial as
ter·res·tri·al (t-rstr-l) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "Terrestrial" [P]
adj.
1. Of or relating to the earth or its inhabitants.
2. Having a worldly, mundane character or quality.
3. Of, relating to, or composed of land.
4. Biology. Living or growing on land; not aquatic: a terrestrial plant or animal.
The word "telestial" is not found in I Cor. 15 because it was concived in the mind of Joseph Smith and can only be found in Mormon teachings. The glory of the sun, moon, and stars in v. 41 is used by LDS to support their beliefe of three heavens, but the context refers to "bodies," not heavens.
Lets make things even more confusing by adding what Bruce M taught.
Apostle Bruce McConkie says, "Even those in the Celestial Kingdom, however, who do not go on to exaltation, will have immortality only and not eternal life... Salvation in its true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the Celestial Kingdom.... This full salvation is obtained in and through the continuation of the family unit in eternity and those who obtain it are gods" (M.D., p. 670). Latter-day apostles, prophets and scripture certainly have not helped the LDS to clarify their doctrines! The B. of M., which is the "Fulness of the gospel" (D. & C. 20:9), does not even mention the three degrees of glory, heavens or kingdoms!
And Bruce's view does not line up and cannot be supported by the Bible.
We also read, LDS believe all will have immortality or resurrection, but only LDS can have eternal life and enter the Celestial Kingdom (G.T.A., p. 166). The very best Mormons will gain "eternal lives" or inherit the highest possible position in that celestial kingdom.
LDS believe that there are three degrees or levels within the Celestial Kingdom. While LDS "baptism is the gate to the Celestial Kingdom, Celestial Marriage is the gate to an exaltation in the highest heaven within the Celestial World" (M.D. p. 118).
Let me end with some things the BoM or the Bible does not teach, but LDS Teach or believe we must do to enter the Higest heaven. This shows how hard it will be to be saved.
According to mormonism the Temple is of the utmost importance, But they seem to forget to tell you what you must do to be able to enter.
Prophet Spencer Kimball Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. he gives a list of 6 things called (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). it says When you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,
1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.
In Gospel Principles pg 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. we are not repentant if we don't sustain the authorities of the church and don't love the lord and our fellow man.
Add to that also pg 241 Eternal marriage is ESSENTIAL FOR EXALTATION. Our exaltation depends on marriage. then over on pg 242 it says "and in order to obtain the highest, a man MUST ENTER INTO THIS ORDER OF THE PRIESTHOOD [MEANING THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT OF MARRIAGE];" "and if he does not, he cannot obtain it" (D and C 131:1-3) Rick B
20 comments:
Rick, that is a helpful article. When I think of verses that describe how grace and works function, Ephesians 2: 8-10 come to mind. From the NASB:
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
From these verses we can reason that people are not saved from sin and death, becoming citizens of the Kingdom of God by works. Rather in grace through the atoning work of Christ and the resurrection, believers are saved so they can commit good works through God's guidance forever.
Cheers:)
I love reading your blog. What really gets me is that the Mormon religion forms entire theologies around what some of their teachers have said. Christians are guilty of this, too - so many churches teach as doctrine things that are not found anywhere in scripture. I find that we do this very often about things from the book of Genesis.
I think that in addition to being a helpful resource on understanding the Mormon religion, your blog is also a healthy reminder to make sure we know the truth.
Hello David,
I agree with you, that the Christian Church is guilty of making up Doctrine, as does the LDS church.
I believe, (Speaking only for my self, no other person or Church).
That the biggest difference between me and the LDS church, when it comes to Doctrines found or not found in the Bible, is the LDS tend to believe what there prophets tell them, Until they change there doctrine.
Examples, Blood atonment, Adam God Doctrine, Blacks will NEVER Under pentaly of death hold the Priesthood.
While LDS will argue this is not Doctrine and the Dont teach or believe it, It was taught by there early Prophets, like Brigham Young.
They avoid these topics today, by claiming these were the Prophets Mere Opinions and nothing more. But on the issue of Adam God, I did a two part topic, you can read all the evidence their. Then, as to the Other things simply being mere opinion, read my topic called, (The 14 fundamentals)
These were given by the Prophet, and teach that the Prophet simply does not give Mere Opinion.
Now as to how I view the scripture and avoid goofy Doctrine, I follow both Acts 17:11 and search the Scriptures, I almost never read any books on Religion or theogly, Simply the Bible alone. This way, I am not influnced my man and his sin nature. I let the bible interprit the Bible, Not man, If I read books on religion, it is by LDS people, as I study there religion. Rick b
The "Mormon" faith teaches we are saved by grace. Anyone who says differently does not understand their religion.
The LDS religion does not pick verses from the Bible and the create whole doctrines around it. A mormon using the verses in the Bible is not using them to prove a point but to support it.
The docrtines of the LDS church are obtained from direct revelation from God. This is the real issue. If they are not, then you are correct, someone read a verse in the Bible and thought up some lavish and elaborate doctrine to go with it.
Does not Christ tell a certain man that he cannot see or enter the Kingdom of God unless he is first born again? Did not Christ tell the wealthy citizen to go and sell all of his possessions and give the money to the poor in order to obtain eternal life? Are these not express commandments to "do" something in order to be saved?
We are saved by Grace, after all we can do? Is there a problem with this statement?
Grorc Said
The "Mormon" faith teaches we are saved by grace. Anyone who says differently does not understand their religion.
Then Grorc goes on to say in a second post, Are these not express commandments to "do" something in order to be saved?
We are saved by Grace, after all we can do? Is there a problem with this statement?
First you say we are saved by grace alone. Then you say we must do works to be saved, Which is it? They both cannot be correct.
Grorc says
The LDS religion does not pick verses from the Bible and the create whole doctrines around it. A mormon using the verses in the Bible is not using them to prove a point but to support it.
Grorc, it appers the burden of proof is on you, You have not shown me chapter and verse from either the Bible or the Book of mormon to support the 3 heavens. It does apper the LDS are building a religion around a single verse. If your correct, please provide the evidence from the Bible or book of mormon, not outside sources or revelation.
Anyone, can "recive" a revelation. This does nbot prove it is from God.
Grorc says, Does not Christ tell a certain man that he cannot see or enter the Kingdom of God unless he is first born again?
It appers you dont understand your bible, LDS teach Baptism means Born Again, Show me chapter and verse to support this. Being born again goes back to the fall of adam. When adam sinned our spirits died. I did an entire topic about the fall of Adam, please refer to that.
Anyway, as a result of our spirits dying we needed to be Born again.
Grorc said
Did not Christ tell the wealthy citizen to go and sell all of his possessions and give the money to the poor in order to obtain eternal life?
That verse their, Jesus is speaking to that man and him alone. That verse does not have Jesus saying, Every rich man, or every human in general must sell all that they have. There were plenty off times were Jesus could have told people or even Rich people to sell ALL that they have.
And if you want to argue I am wrong and your correct, What about all the some what wealthy to the wealthy LDS who are not SELLING all they have. Maybe you could try and convince them they live in sin.
Grorc said
Are these not express commandments to "do" something in order to be saved?
If works save us, then there is only ONE WORK we can and must do.
Read John 6:28-29
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Notice, they asked Jesus, what WORKS WE MUST DO, Works were plural.
Jesus Replied with WORK, Singular, and that work is simply to believe in HIM. Nothing else.
Read the Book of romans, Way to many verse to post here. It states works are of the curse and if we dont do and keep all the works we will be cursed under the law. Your incorrect on the Issue of works. Rick b
Rick, I know you are trying to help people see your point of view. I can understand also that you are limited to your own understanding since you obviously do not believe in revelation. So let me help you out with this whole works and faith issue. Quoting directly from the bible:
James 2: 14-26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Works is required, otherwise your faith is dead. How much more clear can it get? So clearly it is you that is incorrect. Could there be a chance you are incorrect about other things too?
I did not say that we were saved by grace alone in my post or in the one that you copied over. How did you read that from what I said? You did not answer me, by the way.
Rick b: Grorc, it appers the burden of proof is on you, You have not shown me chapter and verse from either the Bible or the Book of mormon to support the 3 heavens.
I agree that the burden of proof is on me and the religion that professes it. But how can you limit a religion that basis its whole existence on modern-day revelation to only two of its standard works? There are many things the Bible or the Book of Mormon does not teach concerning Gods works.
You are correct. Anyone can receive revelation. It is up to the person hearing it to decide where it is coming from. So the burden of proof is put back on you to determine the source. If you have read the Bible or Book of Mormon, you know how that is done.
It appers you dont understand your bible, LDS teach Baptism means Born Again, Show me chapter and verse to support this.
I understand the versus of John 3:5 to be referring to baptism. That may not be your understanding of it but the point was that Christ was giving someone something to do in order to be saved. Once the person has done all he can, Christ steps in as we are ever short of the mark. Only by His grace are we redeemed from the effects of the fall.
That verse their, Jesus is speaking to that man and him alone. That verse does not have Jesus saying, Every rich man, or every human in general must sell all that they have.
My point was that Christ was giving someone something to do in order to be saved. I did not imply that it was a universal commandment. It is quite obvious that is was directed to one person. I was making a point that Christ gave people things to do in order to see the kingdom of God.
I believe that the versus in the Bible you are referring to in Romans are the leaders of the church at that time to correct the false doctrine that people were starting to practice that the more good works they did meant the closer they were to being saved. Paul’s admonition to the people was it is by Grace that we are saved, not by works. That in no way diminishes the ordinances of the gospel.
Look, we can sit here all day and say that the other one is wrong. So what? We each have different interpretations of the Bible. I believe in modern-day revelation, you do not. I believe that Jesus is the Christ as do you. So what if the mormons believe the Gospel of Christ differently that you do? I do not understand the attack? Am I any less saved because my faith in Christ prompts me to do good works?
GRORC,
It is a heart issue first.
In your first example of being born again, in reference to Jesus speaking to Nicodemus, is not about water baptism; it is about the spirit of someone being born through a confession of Faith in Jesus. The work is belief, not baptism. The previous verses mention water-which is reference to physical birth (ever heard of the phrase from expectant mothers, did her water break, in reference to the embroyomic sac all of us come from when we are born and the gush of water that comes at our physical birth)-not to water baptism.
The rich man selling his goods again is a heart issue first. The man put his trust in riches not in God. He needed to surrender his trust to (have faith in) God not his riches. He was unable to do it. He lacked faith.
Please read John 6:28-29 about the work God wants from us.
John 6:28-30 (NKJV)
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
That is it. Nothing else is required to partake of the grace of God.
Just to let everyone know, This topic is not about grace verses works. Works was mentioned in the original topic about heaven, But because that was not the topic, I will end with this post.
You can reply to what I said, you can disagree with me and claim I cannot answer you guys or whatever. If you want to reply further to this topic, please keep it to the issue of, there is not 3 different heavens or who goes to which one.
As to the topic of Works, that is a topic for another time, But I will try and answer both Chuck and Grorc about what they said or asked.
Grorc said...
I did not say that we were saved by grace alone in my post or in the one that you copied over. How did you read that from what I said? You did not answer me, by the way.
Yes you did, otherwise I misunderstood what you said by the way you wrote it. If you start at the top and count down, your the 4th person to reply, in that post, you start off by saying,
The "Mormon" faith teaches we are saved by grace. Anyone who says differently does not understand their religion.
Then when you said, I did not answer you by the way, what exactly did I not answer?
Grorc said
I agree that the burden of proof is on me and the religion that professes it. But how can you limit a religion that basis its whole existence on modern-day revelation to only two of its standard works? There are many things the Bible or the Book of Mormon does not teach concerning Gods works.
I can limit it like this, First off God said in the Bible, HE places HIS WORD ABOVE HIS NAME, psalm 138:2 Then as you know Both Joseph Smith said and the LDS teach, The BoM is the most correct book of any, and a person can get nearer to God by reading this book over any other book.
If this is really the case, then why is it the 3 heavens are not taught in it in detail? Then add to that, if there are 3 different heavens, why are they NEVER mention period in the most correct book of any? Example, in the BoM you never read or see a person saying, you will enter this heaven or that heaven.
Let me add this, When the BoM was first printed in the 1800's there was not "Modern" revelation given at that time on these 3 heavens, it was not the "Norm". so nobody knew there was 3 heavens taught, so as a result, once someone died they could only assume they would enter heaven.
Plus because you must do certain works to enter heaven and it determines which heaven you enter, it seems unfair and unloving of God, not to mention this in His word or the BoM, don't you think?
Plus I think you should read my topic now in the archives, called, Joseph Smiths Vision. I talk about how it is unfair that JS brother enters the highest heaven while still an unbeliever, this contradicts the 3 heavens issue and needing to perform works to enter.
Grorc said
You are correct. Anyone can receive revelation. It is up to the person hearing it to decide where it is coming from. So the burden of proof is put back on you to determine the source. If you have read the Bible or Book of Mormon, you know how that is done.
The burden is on my, and I am showing Mormonism is false by the Contradictions, but the Burden upon you, to show the 3 heavens like I asked can never be done, simply because they don't exist.
Some things I replied with, that you asked about, Jonathan Addressed So for you Grorc, I will end with this.
Grorc said
Look, we can sit here all day and say that the other one is wrong. So what? We each have different interpretations of the Bible.
I believe in modern-day revelation, you do not. I believe that Jesus is the Christ as do you. So what if the mormons believe the Gospel of Christ differently that you do? I do not understand the attack? Am I any less saved because my faith in Christ prompts me to do good works?
First off Grorc, if you believe we can sit here all day long and say the other is wrong and it really is that simply, why are you even replying? Why not go find something better to do?
You go onto say We each have different interpretations of the Bible. I believe that Jesus is the Christ as do you.
It goes way beyond different interpretations. Their are things that are so vastly different between what we believe that it makes it a completely different Gospel. As to you saying, we have the same Jesus, NO WE DO NOT. Read over my entire blog, read all my topics, you will see a major difference.
Must I really spell it out again, For you two say we have the same Jesus, tells me either your very ignorant or your deceiving people.
I say that because, I do not believe Jesus was created, I don't not believe Jesus is one of many Gods, I do not believe Jesus and Lucifer are brothers. This is not the same Jesus I serve.
It would be more honest of you to say we have different Gospels. This is not merely a matter of viewing a verse in two different ways, the reason I say that is, some things LDS teach/believe cannot be supported from the Bible alone, so you use the outside sources to support your view of a different gospel.
Then you said I do not understand the attack? Am I any less saved because my faith in Christ prompts me to do good works?
I am not attacking anyone, I am simply doing what God has called me to do, and showing the differences between what we believe that the LDS do not want to show. I say that because, I have asked many LDS what do you believe about this, that or the other thing, and they tell me what they want me to hear. Read my topic on LDS using deception for more info on that. Good works don't save, but as I said before, that is another topic for another day. Chuck, read my reply to you below. Rick b
Chuck said...
Works is required, otherwise your faith is dead. How much more clear can it get? So clearly it is you that is incorrect. Could there be a chance you are incorrect about other things too?
It is likly I will not reply to you satifaction but thats ok. As I said to Grorc, this topic is not about works, it is about how their is not 3 different heavens taught in the Bible or the BoM.
Anyway, if works are part of us being saved, then I guess this would verify no death bed repentance or noboday on death row can be saved as LDS teaches. How is that loving for God to be like?
As I said to Grorc already, If works save us, then there is only ONE WORK we can and must do.
Read John 6:28-29
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Notice, they asked Jesus, what WORKS WE MUST DO, Works were plural.
Jesus Replied with WORK, Singular, and that work is simply to believe in HIM. Nothing else.
As to you quoting from the OT and the issue of Abrahm, look at the bible and the time frame this took place, It took place before the law was given. Guess what, the law cannot save us, the bible clearly teaches us that. The law is a hard schoolmaster created to bring us to Christ. Rick b
The grace and works discusion is related to the original topic. When discussing that topic, we are considering How to get in to heaven? The bible clearly states the only way is through Jesus and that path must go through the manger, the cross, and the empty tomb.
As Rick has stated, the belief of 3 heavens outlined by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saint is not found within the Bible or the Book of Mormon. The introductory page of the Book of Mormon states that both contain the fulness of the everlasting gospel. And the descriptions of heaven found in either book do not describe divisions in heaven. Heaven is the intimite presence of God-the triune God, God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each "God" does not get a heaven He is in charge of. There is only one God and only One Heaven.
By the way there is also only one Hell. The place prepared for Lucifer and his minions those heavenly creatures unwilling to submit and believe in God and now will also be home to all men who follow the same lack of faith and trust in God.
So commit yourself to the Jesus-taught in the Bible-Believe in Him; and find yourself one day upon your physical death to be present with the Lord; and not like the parable given by Jesus wanting a drop of water to quench your thirst from the burning of hell and the complete seperation from God.
jonathan said...
The grace and works discusion is related to the original topic. When discussing that topic, we are considering How to get in to heaven?
Let me clarify so as not to cause confusion.
I did say in the oringal topic, works are required to enter heaven. And so works could be discussed in that sense. But because the issue of works can be so lenghty and much to tackle in that area, I guess I would rather break it down into two groups.
One group/Topic that will focus on 3 heavens and who gets into each, the other will cover works. I stated before, I work in a resturant, and during the holidays is the busiest time for me, So I can only post once a week, and this way it gives me more freedom to fully research each topic, rather than ruch through them and screw them up.
And even if I were slow at work, I rather post once a week for the same reason, plus it allows more time for people to read what I post on and think about it. Rick b
Clearly here is a great example of why there is a need for modern revelation. Accept it or not, this is proof why modern revelation is needed. If you read Doctrine & Covenants section 76, modern day revelation, you will better understand this topic.
You can disclaim a need for modern revelation, but so did Pharoah, right before he lost the battle with God. He was so stubborn and was so adamant that God wasn't talking to Moses, he even lost his first born son.
So I ask you, are you willing to give up your son for proof that God exists and reveals his secrets to a true and living prophet on the earth today? Is that what it would take for proof?
You say that there are no degrees of glory or "3 Heavens" as you put it, and therefore the LDS religion is false. Who told you that there was only one? Your information is comming from the Bible alone. I can show you supporting evidence to the contrary but it is up to your interpretation and you will have a different one.
The issue is not whether there are seperate places for seperate and different people in the afterlife, I can prove there is by the prophesies of Joseph Smith and other modern-day prophets. But you do not believe they are true prophets. So what would be the point?
Your argument is like someone who does not believe in God and you are waiving a Bible in front of them and saying, "There is so a God, it says so right here." Well, of course it does. The Aethiest is not debating whether you can prove the existence of God from the Bible. He is asking for physical proof that he can understand.
This is very similar. How can you tell me that the Doctrine of multiple kingdoms or mansions (John 14:2) for people of differing rightousness is false? What proof do you have? Just like you telling the Athiest to prove that there is no God. He cannot do it. He can only explain his lack of experience with God.
I do not understand how you can call God just who is a respector of persons. It was my impression that He was no respector of persons. But you are saying that someone who has followed all of God's commandments all his life will recieve the exact same reward as the sinner and rebelious person who at the last minute finds Jesus, repents and says he believes. Would that not be considered a respector of persons. One person recieving a disproportionate amount of reward?
Concerning the brother of Joseph, I know you know the background and rest of that story and I am intruiged as to why you did not include it. You must know that the versus immediately after that state that any person who would have exepted the Gospel of Christ if they had been permitted to recieve it will have all the opportunity to do so in the next life and will be partakers of all the blessings and glories that come with that. It in no way implies that he goes straight to heaven with no effort. It was a vision of things to come.
Now, according to your teachings, anyone who does not say they believe in Christ in this life will go to Hell. But what about the billions of people who were born into this world and never knew Christ? How is it fair that they go to Hell for something they did not do?
I tell you it is not fair, just or correct that this should happen. Everyone will have the opportunity to accept or reject the Christ, having full knowledge that He is the only way to salvation, in this life if permited, and in the next if not.
Grorc Said... How can you tell me that the Doctrine of multiple kingdoms or mansions (John 14:2) for people of differing rightousness is false? What proof do you have?
Easy, Either God is correct when he says in the Bible, No Murders or Liars, or thieves, Etc can enter the Kingdom of Heaven. He does not say they WILL ENTER A heaven. But then JS teaches these people will enter one of these heavens. As the LDS poster Chuck pointed out, the Bible teaches, God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
So if this is true, and if a LDS member is quoting this to Shelli, please dont say, But Rick thats your view of that Scripture. If that verse is true, How can God say, these people will not enter heaven, then go onto say to JS they will enter heaven.
The Bible teaches, God is not the author of confusion. Also If God is ALL knowing and ALL powerful as the Bible teaches, and I dont know if you believe God is all knowing and all powerful, but if He is, then he would know this doctrine was going to cause confusion. So why would He say one thing and almost 2,000 years later give a new and updated Revelation on the Subject?
Then Grorc you said This is very similar. How can you tell me that the Doctrine of multiple kingdoms or mansions (John 14:2) for people of differing rightousness is false?
next time please post the entire verse for clarity, or at the very least read it and try to understand.
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.
I know we will disagree, but when it says Mansions it is not talking about Heavens. If Jesus ment heavens, why not simply say heaven. Here on earth a mansion is a giant house we live in. It also makes no sence for Jesus to say/Mean in my fathers house there are many Heavens or kingdoms. Added to that, that still does not clear up the confusion caused by The Bible saying one thing, then JS receiving a revealation to say something different.
Grorc said...
But you are saying that someone who has followed all of God's commandments all his life will recieve the exact same reward as the sinner and rebelious person who at the last minute finds Jesus, repents and says he believes. Would that not be considered a respector of persons. One person recieving a disproportionate amount of reward?
Everyone gets eternal Life, the Bible says, it is not Gods will that any man should pershish. Not everyone recives rewards in heaven or the same amount. The parbale that speaks about the people receiving a days wages for only working the last hour of the day, speak about this. People on their death bed, receive eternal life, IE receive a days wages even though they only worked one hour. But I really see no diffence between this or the LDS view of baptism for the dead and excepting the Gospel in the next life and moving from the First kingdom to the second.
Grorc said
Concerning the brother of Joseph, I know you know the background and rest of that story and I am intruiged as to why you did not include it. You must know that the versus immediately after that state that any person who would have exepted the Gospel of Christ if they had been permitted to recieve it will have all the opportunity to do so in the next life and will be partakers of all the blessings and glories that come with that. It in no way implies that he goes straight to heaven with no effort. It was a vision of things to come.
Bring this issue up at that topic, I only brought it up so you could compare what I see as a contradiction. I can answer your question on this subject, I feel that topic will be harder for the LDS to handle than you might expect, In other words, I feel it is more problematic than you might think.
Grorc said
Now, according to your teachings, anyone who does not say they believe in Christ in this life will go to Hell. But what about the billions of people who were born into this world and never knew Christ? How is it fair that they go to Hell for something they did not do?
According to the Bible in general and more so the Book of romans, WE ARE ALL WITH OUT EXCUSE. We all know. But some will be judged apart from the law and some by the law.
Grorc said
Everyone will have the opportunity to accept or reject the Christ, having full knowledge that He is the only way to salvation, in this life if permited,and in the next if not.
Not according to the Bible, The Bible says, today is the day of your salvation, Not tommorow or the next day or even the next life. For all that matters, even the BoM supports the view of the Bible, No chances in the next life, I am surprised you dont remember reading that.
The bible also teaches hell fire and damnation as does the BoM. The BoM speaks more about hell and eternal damnation than the Bible does. Rick b
Rick: Easy, Either God is correct when he says in the Bible, No Murders or Liars, or thieves, Etc can enter the Kingdom of Heaven. He does not say they WILL ENTER A heaven. But then JS teaches these people will enter one of these heavens. As the LDS poster Chuck pointed out, the Bible teaches, God is the same yesterday, today and forever.
Well the cool thing about the gospel that I thought everyone was aware of but this might only be an LDS doctrine is the principle of repentance. Through the Grace of Christ, all men will be saved. Those who repent of their sins will recieve a degree of glory.
And you are correct, we disagree on the mansion part. I will post the verse in the future.
Another clarifying yet misunderstood verse is 1 Corinthians 15:41,42 (reading the whole chapter would be profitable)
41 There is one glory of the asun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the bstars: for one star cdiffereth from another star in dglory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in acorruption; it is raised in incorruption.
There are different degrees of resurrection.
Concerning the readings in the Book of Mormon and the Bible about this being the time and life to repent, I am very familiar with them. If you read them with the rest of the book it is clearly obvious that those who do not have an opportunity to hear the gospel in this life will so in the next. Those who had the chance and rejected it do not get to do so in the next life.
Who is Christ preaching to in the spirit prison if they cannot do anything with the knowledge because it is too late?
18 For Christ also hath once asuffered for sins, the just for the bunjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to cdeath in the flesh, but quickened by the dSpirit:
19 By which also he went and apreached unto the bspirits in cprison; 1 Peter 3:18-19
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