Joseph Smith's Bible (part 1)

My next Topic will be about the (Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible) JST. I will lay out what I see are problems with this book and the Church both using it and not using it.

First off, lets start with JS and HIS Bible. If you read the Articles of Faith (A of F) number 8, it says,

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

First problem is, The LDS do not fully trust the Bible as being both accurate or the Word of God. Now we read in the Doctrine and Covenants (D and C) Chapter 71 in the heading above that chapter.

SECTION 71
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Sidney Rigdon, at Hiram, Ohio, December 1, 1831. HC 1: 238–239. The Prophet had continued to translate the Bible with Sidney Rigdon as his scribe until this revelation was received, at which time it was temporarily laid aside so as to enable them to fulfill the instruction given herein. The brethren were to go forth to preach in order to allay the unfriendly feelings that had developed against the Church as a result of the publication of some newspaper articles by Ezra Booth, who had apostatized.

Then we read in D and C chapter 73

Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Sidney Rigdon, at Hiram, Ohio, January 10, 1832. HC 1: 241–242. Since the early part of the preceding December, the Prophet and Sidney had been engaged in preaching, and by this means much was accomplished in diminishing the unfavorable feelings that had arisen against the Church (see heading to Section 71).
1–2, Elders are to continue to preach; 3–6, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon are to continue to translate the Bible until it is finished.

1 For verily, thus saith the Lord, it is expedient in me that they should continue preaching the gospel, and in exhortation to the churches in the regions round about, until conference;

2 And then, behold, it shall be made known unto them, by the voice of the conference, their several missions.

3 Now, verily I say unto you my servants, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, saith the Lord, it is expedient to translate again;

4 And, inasmuch as it is practicable, to preach in the regions round about until conference; and after that it is expedient to continue the work of translation until it be finished.

5 And let this be a pattern unto the elders until further knowledge, even as it is written.

6 Now I give no more unto you at this time. Gird up your loins and be sober. Even so. Amen.

Please remember, both while reading what I write now and when and if you ever talk to the LDS about this, the Heading above the Chapter 73 says, They were to finish the translation. This is very important for the reason of, many LDS have told me and do teach, that JS never finished the Translation. You can go to the LDS fair boards and either talk about the JST and you will have LDS tell you JS never finished or you can look up under my user name (rick b)fairlds and read all of my talks as they arcive everything. The link provide will take you to all of my posts, you can read over the pages and look up the talks on the JST and after you click on them you can read what everyone else said. I talked with LDS on the FairLDS board who told me JS never finished his work of translation.

This is a very serious problem, which I will cover. Lets look at D and C 76:15

15 For while we were doing the work of atranslation, which the Lord had appointed unto us

And D and C 93:53

53 And, verily I say unto you, that it is my will that you should hasten to translate my scriptures, and to obtain a knowledge of history, and of countries, and of kingdoms, of laws of God and man, and all this for the salvation of Zion. Amen.

Now if you see TV, or book or web ad's for the LDS offering a BoM or even a Bible, they NEVER offer you a JST of the Bible. And when you speak with them and they quote from the Bible, you will notice they almost never quote from the JST of the Bible. I would really have to Ask and I guess I am going to ask, If JS really is a prophet of God, The lds is the True Church and God really did tell JS to translate the Bible, Why do the LDS not use it or pass it out?

I will give what I believe are some reasons why. First, JS is nothing more than a false prophet who came as a wolf in sheep's clothing. But the LDS don't believe this, so hear are some reasons I have heard given by them over the years. When JS was killed in the jail, Brigham Young took over as the next president of the LDS church. Depending on who you talk to or believe for that matter, there was a split in the Church, we had the LDS who followed BY, and the RLDS who followed Joseph Smith's son.

The rlds at the time believed Joseph Smiths son was ment to be the next President of the LDS Church, not BY. Joseph's Wife, Lucy, followed her son. She owned the copy of the JST of the Bible. BY wanted it, but lucy would not give it up. So finally BY dismissed it as flawed. Now the LDS claim the RLDS own the rights to the book.

I have to ask these questions, If the LDS really believe the Church fell into a total aposaty, and the Bible is not accurate, and God clearly told JS to translate the Bible again, As was clearly laid out, why would God allow one group to own the copy rights on His word and theirfore the Church that WAS supposed to have it and use it, see it basicly fall into a some what corrputed state again?

I happen to own a copy of the JST of the Bible, and when you read in the preface of the JST of the Bible, it states, ( "Completion" Possibly not final).





More to come in part two, Rick b

3 Heavens (Part 2)

My topic on part two to the 3 heavens issue will focus on what the Bible says and does not say.

Look over part 1 and see who gets let into the First heaven.

People who will attain the telestial kingdom in the afterlife include those "who received not the gospel of Christ, nor the testimony of Jesus" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:82) as well as "liars, and sorcerors, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie"

Notice, According to the Bible, these people will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God or Heaven.

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Even the BoM never mentions these 3 different heavens or who will enter them.
Sadly the LDS build an entire doctrine around a verse or two from the BIble yet simply cannot support the view they believe from the Bible.

Do a word search on HEAVEN or HEAVEN(S) Not once in the Bible or BoM will you find a break down of these three heavens and who will go to each one. The LDS use the verses in the BIble, I Cor. 15:39-41 and teach the three degrees of glory or three heavens. But these verses do not give a definition of who goes where, only talks about three heavens. And the LDS take them out of context to build there doctrine.

1Cr 15:39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.

1Cr 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.

1Cr 15:41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.

However, the context in I Cor. 15:35-54 is not about heavens, but about the difference between our earthly mortal body and our new immortal body given us at the resurrection. Celestial and terrestrial bodies are mentioned in v. 40, but any dictionary will show that celestial means "heavenly" and terrestrial means "earthly."

Dictionary.com Defines Celestial as

ce·les·tial (s-lschl) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "celestial" [P]
adj.

1. Of or relating to the sky or the heavens: Planets are celestial bodies.
2. Of or relating to heaven; divine: celestial beings.
3. Supremely good; sublime: celestial happiness.
4. Celestial Of or relating to the Chinese people or to the former Chinese Empire.

And Terrestrial as

ter·res·tri·al (t-rstr-l) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "Terrestrial" [P]
adj.

1. Of or relating to the earth or its inhabitants.
2. Having a worldly, mundane character or quality.
3. Of, relating to, or composed of land.
4. Biology. Living or growing on land; not aquatic: a terrestrial plant or animal.

The word "telestial" is not found in I Cor. 15 because it was concived in the mind of Joseph Smith and can only be found in Mormon teachings. The glory of the sun, moon, and stars in v. 41 is used by LDS to support their beliefe of three heavens, but the context refers to "bodies," not heavens.

Lets make things even more confusing by adding what Bruce M taught.

Apostle Bruce McConkie says, "Even those in the Celestial Kingdom, however, who do not go on to exaltation, will have immortality only and not eternal life... Salvation in its true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the Celestial Kingdom.... This full salvation is obtained in and through the continuation of the family unit in eternity and those who obtain it are gods" (M.D., p. 670). Latter-day apostles, prophets and scripture certainly have not helped the LDS to clarify their doctrines! The B. of M., which is the "Fulness of the gospel" (D. & C. 20:9), does not even mention the three degrees of glory, heavens or kingdoms!

And Bruce's view does not line up and cannot be supported by the Bible.
We also read, LDS believe all will have immortality or resurrection, but only LDS can have eternal life and enter the Celestial Kingdom (G.T.A., p. 166). The very best Mormons will gain "eternal lives" or inherit the highest possible position in that celestial kingdom.

LDS believe that there are three degrees or levels within the Celestial Kingdom. While LDS "baptism is the gate to the Celestial Kingdom, Celestial Marriage is the gate to an exaltation in the highest heaven within the Celestial World" (M.D. p. 118).

Let me end with some things the BoM or the Bible does not teach, but LDS Teach or believe we must do to enter the Higest heaven. This shows how hard it will be to be saved.

According to mormonism the Temple is of the utmost importance, But they seem to forget to tell you what you must do to be able to enter.

Prophet Spencer Kimball Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. he gives a list of 6 things called (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). it says When you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,

1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.

In Gospel Principles pg 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. we are not repentant if we don't sustain the authorities of the church and don't love the lord and our fellow man.

Add to that also pg 241 Eternal marriage is ESSENTIAL FOR EXALTATION. Our exaltation depends on marriage. then over on pg 242 it says "and in order to obtain the highest, a man MUST ENTER INTO THIS ORDER OF THE PRIESTHOOD [MEANING THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT OF MARRIAGE];" "and if he does not, he cannot obtain it" (D and C 131:1-3) Rick B

3 Heavens. (Part 1)

In part one here, I am simply laying out what the 3 different heavens are according to LDS beliefes. I will go into detail in part two as to why I believe these are in error and a false Doctrine.


Telestial Kingdom
The telestial kingdom is the lowest of the three degrees of glory, in which the highest or celestial kingdom is compared to the sun, the middle or terrestrial kingdom is compared to the moon, and the lowest or telestial kingdom is compared to the stars. According to the Church's interpretation, the Bible also indicates that these three kingdoms are connected with the resurrection of the dead (1 Corinthians 15:40-42). Also, "in addition to the degrees of glory, there is a place of no glory, called perdition (or "outer darkness"), reserved for those who commit the unpardonable sin." (Bible Dictionary: Degrees of Glory)

People who will attain the telestial kingdom in the afterlife include those "who received not the gospel of Christ, nor the testimony of Jesus" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:82) as well as "liars, and sorcerors, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:103). These people, who will rise in the second resurrection, must first suffer for their sins in the Spirit Prison (similar to the Catholic concept of Purgatory - see Common Latter-day Saint perceptions) until the Last Judgement, at which time they will be assigned to the telestial kingdom, for they are identified as "heirs of salvation" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:88). However, the telestial kingdom is not unpleasant: "the glory of the telestial...surpasses all understanding" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:89).


Terrestrial Kingdom
The Terrestrial Kingdom is the middle of three "degrees of glory," in which the highest or Celestial Kingdom is compared to the sun, the middle or Terrestrial Kingdom is compared to the moon,[1] and the lowest or Telestial Kingdom is compared to the stars. The terminology is also used in 1 Corinthians 15:40. Also, "in addition to the degrees of glory, there is a place of no glory, called perdition, reserved for those who commit the unpardonable sin." (Bible Dictionary: Degrees of Glory)

Persons who will attain the Terrestrial Kingdom in the afterlife, according to the Church's teachings, include those who lived respectably but "were blinded by the craftiness of men" and "were not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" while on Earth or those who would did not do enough to search out the truth before their death but who have accepted it in the post-mortal realm (this latter doctrine being emphatically rejected by virtually all other Christian polities).

In the Terrestrial Kingdom, God the Father does not come, but Jesus Christ visits, and the Holy Ghost dwells with the inhabitants.


Celestial Kingdom
In Mormonism, the Celestial Kingdom is the highest of what are believed to be three heavens or heavenly kingdoms, or degrees of glory. It is thought to be the "third heaven" referred to in 2 Corinthians 12:2 of the Bible, and it is also thought to correspond to the "celestial bodies" mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:40 (King James Version). The Latin word celestial means "heavenly".

According to this doctrine, only those who attain the Celestial Kingdom will be united with their families in the eternities. It will be the residence of those who have been righteous, accepted the Gospel (Mormonism) and its ordinances and covenants, and lived their lives in harmony with their covenants or received the ordinances and covenants with all their hearts in the spirit world.

“They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given--That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.” (Doctrine and Covenants, 76:51-53)

Children who die before the age of eight all qualify for the Celestial Kingdom in the afterlife, as well as those who did not have the chance to receive the gospel in this life, but do in the post-mortal spirit world (see Baptism for the dead). Persons who reach maturity and receive full gospel teachings in this life will only be judged by God to be worthy of the Celestial Kingdom if they have received all required ordinances (baptism, endowment, and sealing if they are married), repented of their sins, and endured to the end through retaining their conversion. Some rebellious children of righteous parents may, like Alma the Younger in the Book of Mormon, receive a spiritual awakening in this life or in the spirit world whereby they finally understand and embrace the teachings of their parents and the atonement of Jesus Christ. (Alma 36:5-24)

The Celestial Kingdom is the residence of God the Father and Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost dwells there. Those who are worthy to dwell in the Celestial Kingdom will be exalted, and become God-like.

Smith taught that the Earth will receive a celestial glory. Because of this, many Mormons believe that the Earth will be the Celestial Kingdom, or a Celestial World within the Celestial Kingdom, for Humans who lived on the Earth and qualified for Celestial glory.

Original Sin

My next Topic will be on the issue of Original Sin.

The LDS deny this and call it a Theory. I will point out some of the sources they use to teach this and I will show from the Bible why I believe they are wrong, plus I will add my own thoughts on this subject.

First the LDS quote from the Articles of faith They quote Number 2 which says,

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

The first Question I would ask is this, If A of F 2 states Men will be punished for their own sins, and we are not sinners because of Adam, then where does or did our sinful nature come from?

I read in the BoM in Ether 3:2

O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods. Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires.

Seems to me, the BoM implys the fact we have a fallen nature by way of Adam.

Then they use Moses 6:53-55

53 And our father Adam spake unto the Lord, and said: Why is it that men must repent and be baptized in water? And the Lord said unto Adam: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden.

54 Hence came the saying abroad among the people, that the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world.

55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

Now we read in verse 55 that Sin Conceiveth in the hearts of the Kids. How is it if they are not stained by the fall of Adam that sin can just simply be there. Again where does this sinful nature come from if not from the fall of Adam?


We read in Moroni 8:8

8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

Just a side note here, the way Moroni 8:8 starts sounds a lot like these verses here,

Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luk 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Many people claim the BoM was simply copied in many spots word for word from the Bible. Do what ever you want with this info.

I want to know focus on this here,

wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

1. If the curse is removed from kids, then Yet again, how do they have sin in them when they grow up past the age of 8 years old

2. If the law of Circumcision is/has been done away with, Why is it mentioned through out the entire old testment as a law and Moses was almost killed for not doing it, His wife had to come to his rescue?


Now lets look at some verses from the Bible that teach we are all sinful.

Romans 5:8-14 says

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Death in Adam, Life in Christ
(Gen. 3:1-19)

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

We also read in

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

You can also read much in the Old Testement About the Priests Laying Hands upon animles to tranfer our sins to them, then they are put to death and not us. Read Hebrews chapters 9 and 10. Rick B

The Fall of Adam.

In the LDS faith, they believe the Fall of Adam was a good thing that was meant to happen. They deny the idea of Original Sin. While in the Biblical view of Christianity these go hand in hand, they are two separate events in the LDS belief. I will do a separate topic at a different time on the issue of Original Sin.

The way I will approach this will be like this. I will give a verse or two from the Bible, show how it differs from mormonism and go through it a few verses at a time.

Lets start with,

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Notice in verse 28, God tells them to be fruitful and multiply. In other words he is saying, go have Children. This was before the fall that God told them this. But the LDS teach that Adam and Eve were not able to have Children until after the Fall occurred. Here is a list of sources so you can look it up for your self.

Doct of Salvation vol 1 pg 115. Gospel Principles pg's 32-34(1997 edition)
True to the Faith pg 56-57 (2004) Mormon Doctrine pg 268.

The Bible again teaches

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The Bible clearly teaches, there is ONE TREE Adam and Eve are not allowed to eat from. Yet here is what the LDS teach. In the Joseph Smith "Translation" of the Bible, we read in Genesis chapter 2 verses 20-21

20:But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, 21: Nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but remember that I forbid it.

Then we read exactly word for word in the Pearl of great price, MOSES 3:17

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Now here is more from the Bible.

Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I [was] naked; and I hid myself.

Gen 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou [wast] naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest [to be] with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What [is] this [that] thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;

Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Now the reason I posted these last two sections of Scripture from both chapter 2 and 3, is because the Bible is very clear, God did not want Adam and Eve eating from the tree. Yet the LDS teach it was really part of Gods plan, they were supposed to partake of the tree and as a result Good things will come from it.

Let me lay out these so called benefits of the fall from the LDS point of view.

Adam and Eve could not have Children, as I addressed above. Then as 2Nephi 6-8 states below, If it were not for the fall We could not have a Resurrection, or Atonement.

6 For as death hath passed upon all men, to fulfill the merciful plan of the great Creator, there must needs be a power of resurrection, and the resurrection must needs come unto man by reason of the fall; and the fall came by reason of transgression; and because man became fallen they were cut off from the presence of the Lord.

7 Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement—save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more.

8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.

We read in the P of GP, Book of Moses chapter 5:10-11 Adam and Eve could not have Seed or have Joy if it were not for the Fall.

10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

We read in Gospel Principles pg 33 that another blessing of the fall is, We are blessed with physical bodies, the right to choose between good and evil, and the opportunity to gain eternal life.

We read in 2 Nephi 2:22-25

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men care, that they might have joy.

I want to point out some things for the LDS readers to think about. Why would God tell Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, (Have kids) But in reality they could not, until they ate from the tree that God told them not to? This seems to be a bit deceitful to me, and this would make God out to be a liar. How could God honestly tell them to do something, when he knew they could not?

Another thing would be, Why would God tell them not to eat of the tree, But in reality he planned all along that they should and would in order to be set free as it were? Why would God not simply be honest from the start and tell them, You must eat of this tree and here is why. Again this makes God a liar and this shows God using deceitful means to fulfill His plans and purposes. This is not the God I serve, He does not need to use lies and deception.

I challenge anyone to show me chapter and verse where God lied or uses lies. The bible tells me it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie, Hebrews 6:18 then in Titus 1:2 it says God cannot lie, The BoM also teaches God cannot lie, Read Enos 6, Ether 3:12, D and C 62:6.

Then we are taught in LDS teachings, After the fall we have Joy, and it was Gods plan for us to fall. But we read in Genesis 3:10-21, Adam was afraid, Adam blames Eve for something, He is no longer man enough to take responceabilty for his Actions. We read the Serpent is cursed, there is enmity put between the women and her seed. the Lord greatly multiplies sorrow, and gives pain in child birth. The ground is cursed and we have thorns and thistles, and lastly animals had to be put to death to make skins to cover Adam and Eve.

Of all the things I listed from Genesis 3:10-21 Please Explain to me how any of that brings Joy? We then read in 2 Nephi 6 they were cut off from the presence of the Lord. how is this joyful or good? We also read in Moses 5:11 and Gospel Principles pg 33 that they would not have been able to choose good or evil if it were not for the fall. It is really sad that I need to point this out, but the idea of being able to choose Evil is really not a good thing. People always seem to choose Evil over Good. We read in Jeremiah 17:9

The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? And in Romans 3:10-11 10: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

There was a LDS member who posted on my blog under a different topic, About the verses in Jeremiah, and Romans. She tried telling me that these verse did not apply to the entire human race, Only a select few people. So in case any LDS members who believe the fall was a good thing and we really are not all Evil, let me give you and answer for that now and it comes from the BoM if you cannot believe your scripture what can you believe?

Ether 3:2
2 O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods. Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires.

Mosiah 3:19
19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

I want to end with these thoughts here, As a result of the fall of Adam, The whole entire world was destoryed in a flood, The estiment was around 6 BILLION people died. Yep looks like Joy to me. People to this day Lie, Cheat, steal, Kill, Sexual preditors prey on little Children, Many people and even religions Harm Children and supprese women. The Bible speaks of false Prophets and Teachers. I just honestly do not see how all the evil in the world today and down through the years can make up for any Joy that the fall supposdly brought. Rick b

Jared and the tower of Babel?

We read in the Bible, the account given about the tower of Babel. But I bet you did not know, there is a different account of the tower of Babel given in the Book of Mormon. It tells the story about Jared and God not confounding their language. Let's first read what the Bible teaches.

Gen 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

Gen 11:2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

Gen 11:3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.

Gen 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top [may reach] unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

Gen 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people [is] one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there , that they may not understand one another's speech.

Gen 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

Gen 11:9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

Now here is the account given in the BoM, found in Ether Chapter 1:33-43

33 Which Jared came forth with his brother and their families, with some others and their families, from the great tower, at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, and swore in his wrath that they should be scattered upon all the face of the earth; and according to the word of the Lord the people were scattered.

34 And the brother of Jared being a large and mighty man, and a man highly favored of the Lord, Jared, his brother, said unto him: Cry unto the Lord, that he will not confound us that we may not understand our words.

35 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord, and the Lord had compassion upon Jared; therefore he did not confound the language of Jared; and Jared and his brother were not confounded.

36 Then Jared said unto his brother: Cry again unto the Lord, and it may be that he will turn away his anger from them who are our friends, that he confound not their language.

37 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord, and the Lord had compassion upon their friends and their families also, that they were not confounded.

38 And it came to pass that Jared spake again unto his brother, saying: Go and inquire of the Lord whether he will drive us out of the land, and if he will drive us out of the land, cry unto him whither we shall go. And who knoweth but the Lord will carry us forth into a land which is choice above all the earth? And if it so be, let us be faithful unto the Lord, that we may receive it for our inheritance.

39 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord according to that which had been spoken by the mouth of Jared.

40 And it came to pass that the Lord did hear the brother of Jared, and had compassion upon him, and said unto him:

41 Go to and gather together thy flocks, both male and female, of every kind; and also of the seed of the earth of every kind; and thy families; and also Jared thy brother and his family; and also thy friends and their families, and the friends of Jared and their families.

42 And when thou hast done this thou shalt go at the head of them down into the valley which is northward. And there will I meet thee, and I will go before thee into a land which is choice above all the lands of the earth.

43 And there will I bless thee and thy seed, and raise up unto me of thy seed, and of the seed of thy brother, and they who shall go with thee, a great nation. And there shall be none greater than the nation which I will raise up unto me of thy seed, upon all the face of the earth. And thus I will do unto thee because this long time ye have cried unto me.

Ok as you can see and read for yourself, these two accounts simply do not line up, I also did the article about the barge with holes in it, found in the Book of Ether chapter 3. So as a side note here is the Dictionary Definition of ETHER.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
e‧ther  /ˈiθər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ee-ther] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. Also called diethyl ether, diethyl oxide, ethyl ether, ethyl oxide, sulfuric ether. Chemistry, Pharmacology. a colorless, highly volatile, flammable liquid, C4H10O, having an aromatic odor and sweet, burning taste, derived from ethyl alcohol by the action of sulfuric acid: used as a solvent and, formerly, as an inhalant anesthetic.
2. Chemistry. (formerly) one of a class of compounds in which two organic groups are attached directly to an oxygen atom, having the general formula ROR.
3. the upper regions of space; the clear sky; the heavens.
4. the medium supposed by the ancients to fill the upper regions of space.
5. Physics. a hypothetical substance supposed to occupy all space, postulated to account for the propagation of electromagnetic radiation through space. Compare Michelson-Morley experiment.

I am simply pointing out here that ETHER, according to the Dictionary, is or can be a really bad thing, and the accounts in the Book of Ether do not agree with the Bible.

Then, I could add that verse 43 does not line up with the account given in the Bible either.

43 And there will I bless thee and thy seed, and raise up unto me of thy seed, and of the seed of thy brother, and they who shall go with thee, a great nation. And there shall be none greater than the nation which I will raise up unto me of thy seed, upon all the face of the earth. And thus I will do unto thee because this long time ye have cried unto me.

First off, if this account were true, and it supposedly takes places at the tower of Babel, it would mean the two accounts were in the same time frame. So why do the BoM and the Bible not agree and why is it not spoken of in the Bible or by Jesus?

We read about Abraham being the father of a great nation. That nation is Isreal and we can speak with Jews today; they are spoken of in the news every day. We do not speak with people from the Jared account. I have never even heard of them in my entire life. Why is it this supposedly great nation has died out? I say died out because unlike the nation of Israel, we never read Jesus speak of the Jared group, and his "Great People" are never once mentioned in the Bible. I just put this out for people to examine the evidence for themselves, and follow Acts 17:11 and search the Scriptures for themselves.

If the BoM is false and the Bible and God are true, then there is an eternal burning lake of fire, called the second death that awaits all the people who love lies and false gospels. If the BoM is a lie and you love the BoM and believe it to be a true and accurate account, then you love a lie and are promoting this lie and false gospel every time you try and convert people to follow it.

So I would simply challenge people to show how the lack of evidence for the BoM can be true and explain why the vast difference in the two accounts. Rick b

A Barge with Holes in it?

Below is a story found in the BoM, the book of Ether. We read in the story about How God spoke to Jared and Commended him to make boats (Barges). I want to focus on some problems with How God told Jared to make these barges, and focus on the problems with the barges them selves. First lets read the story.

The book of Ether chapter 2
16 And the Lord said: Go to work and build, after the manner of barges which ye have hitherto built. And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did go to work, and also his brethren, and built barges after the manner which they had built, according to the instructions of the Lord. And they were small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water.

17 And they were built after a manner that they were exceedingly tight, even that they would hold water like unto a dish; and the bottom thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the sides thereof were tight like unto a dish; and the ends thereof were peaked; and the top thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the length thereof was the length of a tree; and the door thereof, when it was shut, was tight like unto a dish.

18 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, I have performed the work which thou hast commanded me, and I have made the barges according as thou hast directed me.

19 And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish.

20 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood.

21 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did so, according as the Lord had commanded.

22 And he cried again unto the Lord saying: O Lord, behold I have done even as thou hast commanded me; and I have prepared the vessels for my people, and behold there is no light in them. Behold, O Lord, wilt thou suffer that we shall cross this great water in darkness?

23 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels? For behold, ye cannot have windows, for they will be dashed in pieces; neither shall ye take fire with you, for ye shall not go by the light of fire.

24 For behold, ye shall be as a whale in the midst of the sea; for the mountain waves shall dash upon you. Nevertheless, I will bring you up again out of the depths of the sea; for the winds have gone forth out of my mouth, and also the drains and the floods have I sent forth.

25 And behold, I prepare you against these things; for ye cannot cross this great deep save I prepare you against the waves of the sea, and the winds which have gone forth, and the floods which shall come. Therefore what will ye that I should prepare for you that ye may have light when ye are swallowed up in the depths of the sea?

Now lets read the account in the Bible about Noah and the ark he was told to build.

14 Make yourself an ark of gopherwood; make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and outside with pitch.

15 And this is how you shall make it: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits.

16 You shall make a window for the ark, and you shall finish it to a cubit from above; and set the door of the ark in its side. You shall make it with lower, second, and third decks.

17 And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die.

18 But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall go into the ark--you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you.

19 And of every living thing of all flesh you shall bring two of every sort into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female.

20 Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind, and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive.

21 And you shall take for yourself of all food that is eaten, and you shall gather it to yourself; and it shall be food for you and for them."

22 Thus Noah did; according to all that God commanded him, so he did.

In the Bible, when we read the account Given to Noah by God on how to build the ark, we find great detail, How many floors, the lenght of the ark, the kind of wood used, It HAS A WINDOW, a food supply Etc.

It would appear in the Book of Mormon, God is not as smart as in the Bible. First off, According to the BoM, in Ether 3:1 we read, Jared and his crew were told to make EIGHT BOATS, 1 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared, (now the number of the vessels which had been prepared was eight).

First off, for me, I would ask the simple question of, Why not just make one big barge that could fit everyone. I thought families were forever? If they are, why would it be so hard to keep a few people in one boat.

The Account given in the BoM we read, that Jared showed lack of faith by saying to the Lord, we wont be able to breath because of lack of air. We wont be able to see because of no light and we cannot steer.

I read in the Bible, God supplied Food, God never told noah to steer the Ark, We can assume God guided it and protected the ark, We read in the Bible, that there were great upheavals because of earthquakes and great destruction upon the earth, it was more than just rain falling for 40 days. God clearly protected Noah, why not Jared and his family?

Why is it, the Plans for Noah's ark were not the same for Jared's? The thing that really gets me, and in my mind, portrays God as being Stupid, is the issue of, We have no Air in the barge's. So God tells Jared, put a hole in the Top of the barge and the Bottom of the barge, Then put plugs in the holes. When you need air, pull out a plug to receive air.

20 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood.

Lets examine just how crazy this really appears. This defy's logic, yet many people sadly believe this and except this as Gods Holy Word. It would stand to reason, if your standing up on the Floor, and you look down and see a plug, you won't want to pull it, because it would make sense the bottom of the barge is in the water. So you would want to pull the top one, But we read in verse 20, that if you pull the plug and water comes in, put the plug back in so the barge won't fill with water and sink.

If you pull the top plug, and water comes in then this would imply, your completely under water, If you need a plug on the bottom and the top, this implies you are being tossed all around, this would mean also you turn completely over, this means you did a 180 degree turn. Just imagine if you did that a few times, People would be seriously hurt. You cannot roll over in a car many times and never get a scratch. If God really did say, put a plug in the top and bottom, it shows He knew you would be rolling over, If God really did say, if you pull the plug and water comes in, then put the plug back in to stop the water, this means He knew you would be under water.

This tells me, God is not a loving God to allow this or he simply is not very smart. Then if your running out of air to breath, and only water comes in, then as the water fills the barge, even if it is only a foot or two of water, then this means, there is even less air to breath. If you needed the air to breath, and you pull the plug to obtain more air, then this means your running dangerously low, If only water comes in, then the odds of you dying from lack of air are increased greatly.

Then it adds the problem of, if you let in water one to many times, you simply will sink under water due to the water aboard the Barge. It also begs the question of, If the Barges are as light as a fowl upon the water, I don't recall ever once hearing about any birds, ducks or any other types of water fowl, simply just sinking into the water. So why did or do the barges go under water even for just a few minutes?

Now in verse 23, The lord tells jared You cannot have a window, lest it gets dashed to pieces. Well then why did Noah's ark have a window? Did God not understand this whole idea of windows on the ark breaking? As near as I can tell, The ark's window was noting more than a hole cut out with a board covering it, then they simply lift the board and the let the dove out or later the raven out. God told Jared, he could not have Fire on board. Well this fire would only burn up the air supply, this would cause them to pull the plug out more often, resulting in greater destruction of the barge. The other problem with the lack of air, is without air you will pass out never to wake up again.

Last but not least, we read in verse 24-25, God seems to understand that they will go under the water, And God states He will take care of them. Well if he can take care of them, why does He give lousy barge plans, and appear to be so stupid. Just my thoughts. Rick b

Are Mormon's Christians?

My next Topic is a reply to Wer62 (Ed's) Topic of, ARE MORMON'S CHRISTIAN.

First let me give the Link to Ed's topic for people to read Ed's Topic. I want people to read his topic and think for themselves. First Ed quotes

Acts 11: 26
26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Ed quotes Acts 11:26. But here is a problem Ed either was not aware of or did not address. We read in the BoM, Supposedly the Most correct Book ever Written. And According to A of F 8, it is above the Bible as being MORE ACCURATE than the Bible. Any way we read in

Alma 46: 13, 15-16
13 And he fastened on his head-plate, and his breastplate, and his shields, and girded on his armor about his loins; and he took the pole, which had on the end thereof his rent coat, (and he called it the title of liberty) and he bowed himself to the earth, and he prayed mightily unto his God for the blessings of liberty to rest upon his brethren, so long as there should a band of Christians remain to possess the land.

Alma 48: 10
10 And thus he was preparing to support their liberty, their lands, their wives, and their children, and their peace, and that they might live unto the Lord their God, and that they might maintain that which was called by their enemies the cause of Christians.

Ok, First off, notice in these verses they use the Word Christian This is a problem, if the Book of Acts is to be true, Why? In my copy of the BoM dated 1920 Down the bottom of the page, it dates these happenings to be Both BC 72 AND 73 If they were called Christians After the death and resurrection of Christ, how Could this occurrence of the Word Christian, take place before Christ was around?

Now lets look at what the word Christian first meant.

Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary - christian
The name given by the Greeks or Romans, probably in reproach, to the followers
of Jesus. It was first used at Antioch. The names by which the disciples were
known among themselves were "brethren," "the faithful," "elect," "saints,"
"believers." But as distinguishing them from the multitude without, the name
"Christian" came into use, and was universally accepted. This name occurs but
three times in the New Testament (Acts 11:26; 26:28; 1 Pet. 4:16).
Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary

And Wikipedia:

"Christian" was at first a derogatory term meaning "Christ-like ones" related to persecution, but early Christians were taught by their leaders to bear that name proudly. Previously, they had no specific name for their faith, and so they simply referred to it as "the way".

Now if we look back through the Bible, starting back in Genesis, We Find God created man and women.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

No mention of them being Christians. They are believers in God. Then we read in Genesis 17:5

Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

God made Abraham the father of many Nations. Now we find we have Gentiles (Non-Jewish) People, and the Jewish people. Again no mention of CHRISTIANS. Their is only Jews and Gentiles. If the Gentiles convert to Judaism they are simply followers of God, Not Christians.

Once we get into the new testament, We find, before the Death of Christ, they still are simply followers of God. Then after the Resurrection, we find only 3 times is the word Christian used. And as I stated above, it first started out as a derogatory term. The 3 times we see the word Christian used are

Acts 11: 26
26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Act 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

1Pe 4:16 Yet if [any man suffer] as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

.


Wer62 (ED) States on his blog, that this is what a Christian is

So what makes a Christian today? Simple, a commitment to follow Jesus Christ! This is not disqualified in the LDS Church and in fact the LDS Church follows closer to the Early Church in its followings of Christ and his Church then most protestant Churches today.

So According to Ed's definition and the Dictionary definition is this what a Christian is? Well the bible does not define the word/term Christian. First off, we know it was a derogatory term. Then their is only 3 verses using the word Christian. Acts 26:6 Simply states they were first Called Christian. This does not define the word for us.

Acts 26:28 the King Agrippa said to paul, you almost persuadest me to be a Christian. You could take this to mean a follower of Christ. But still this does not define the word, It does not say, THIS IS THE MEANING OF A CHRISTIAN. Neither does 1 peter 4:16.

Now, lets look again ad something Ed Said:

in fact the LDS Church follows closer to the Early Church in its followings of Christ and his Church then most protestant Churches today.

First lets look at a few verse we find in the Bible.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Ok, Paul here states that there is ANOTHER GOSPEL, Mormonism teaches this "Other" Gospel.

I find it really funny, Mormons can call themselves "Christian" Even though we clearly have vastly different beliefes, Yet the LDS refuse to call the FLDS, RLDS or other LDS off-shoot groups Mormons. Why is that? article about FLDS not being Mormons


The FLDS and RLDS and other off shoots of LDS have closer beliefes to those of the LDS than the LDS and Christians, Example, Christians do not believe in the other 3 standerd works like the BoM, D and C or the Pearl of great price. The FLDS believe the Teaching of D and C 132 not the Christians, and the teaching of D and C 132 is in the D and C which Mormons "LDS" believe.

So why is it with such great differences in beliefes the Mormons can say they are Christians, But the FLDS and RLDS, with closer beliefes are not Mormon? I did a topic called what if On my blog. I pointed out how If I as a christian were to dress as a mormon missionary and preach my beliefes the LDS would get mad and say I am not a real LDS member, yet LDS can call them selves Christian, and teach way different views to what I believe, Why is this? Rick B

Comparisons

Is God, "One God, manifested in three persons," or is He, "Three Gods?"

The Book of Mormon:

""And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, WHICH IS ONE GOD. Amen" [Introduction: Testimony of three witnesses] Namely--Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer & Martin Harris

... every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, WHICH IS ONE ETERNAL GOD" (Alma 1:44b).(4)

"Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I AM JESUS CHRIST. I AM THE FATHER AND THE SON" (Ether 3:14).

And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs he that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God (2 Nephi 26:12).

"Teach them that redemption cometh through CHRIST THE LORD, WHO IS THE VERY ETERNAL FATHER. Amen" (Mosiah 16:15; see also 2Nephi 31:21; Mosiah 15:1-5; Alma 11:38,39; 3Nephi 11:27,36; Mormon 7:7).



Joseph Smith:

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, JESUS CHRIST A SEPARATE AND DISTINCT PERSONAGE FROM GOD THE FATHER, and the Holy Spirit was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute THREE DISTINCT PERSONAGES AND THREE GODS." [ Documentary History of the Church 6:474, June 16, 1844; quoted in Daniel Ludlow, ed. Latter-day Prophets Speak. Logan, UT: Bookcraft, 1988, p.273.]

"Peter and Stephen testify that they saw the son of Man standing on the right hand of God. Any person that had seen the heavens opened knows that there are THREE PERSONAGES in the heavens who hold the keys of power, and one presides over all." [Documentary History of the Church 5:426, June 11, 1843 (quoted in Ludlow, p.273).]

"When the light rested upon me I saw TWO PERSONAGES, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other - This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!" [Joseph Smith - History 1:17b. Pearl of Great Price, p.49.]





Has He always been God , or was He "an exalted man" first?

Book of Mormon:
"For do we not read that GOD IS THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY, AND FOREVER, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?" (Mormon 9:9).

"For behold, GOD knowing all things, BEING FROM EVERLASTING TO EVERLASTING, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men" (Moroni 7:22).

"For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but HE IS UNCHANGEABLE FROM ALL ETERNITY TO ALL ETERNITY" (Moroni 8:18).

Joseph Smith:
"GOD HIMSELF WAS ONCE AS WE ARE NOW AND IS AN EXALTED MAN and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!... [Joseph Fielding Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1976, pp. 345-346]

"It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that HE WAS ONCE A MAN LIKE US; yea, that God Himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible." [ Times and Seasons August 15, 1844 (quoted in Ludlow, p.277).]



Do the saved praise God in eternity or become gods?

Book of Mormon:
"... that I might go down in peace, and my immortal spirit may join the choirs above in SINGING THE PRAISES OF A JUST GOD" (Mosiah 2:28b).

"And he [Jesus Christ] hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to SING CEASELESS PRAISES with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end" (Mormon 7:7).

Joseph Smith:
"Gods have an ascendency over the angels, who are ministering spirits. In the resurrection, some are raised to be angels; others are RAISED TO BECOME GODS." [Documentary History of the Church 5:426-427, June 11, 1843 (quoted in Ludlow, p.77).]

"... they [a righteous, resurrected husband and wife] will pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fullness and continuation of the seeds forever and ever. THEN THEY SHALL BE GODS, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then they shall be above all, because all things are subject to them. THEN SHALL THEY BE GODS, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them."[ Doctrine and Covenants 132:19b-20, July 12, 1843, pp.268-269]

"... because they [Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob] did none other things than that which was commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but ARE GODS."[ Doctrine and Covenants 132:37b, July 12, 1843, p.270.]



Is there one God, or are there many Gods?

Book of Mormon:
"And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God? And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. Now Zeezrom said: IS THERE MORE THAN ONE GOD? And he answered, NO" (Alma 11:26-29).

Joseph Smith:
"And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and THEY, THAT IS THE GODS, organized and formed the heavens and the earth."

"And THEY (THE GODS) said: Let there be light; and there was light."

"And THE GODS TOOK COUNSEL AMONG THEMSELVES and said: Let us go down and form man in our image, after our likeness."

"And THE GODS SAID AMONG THEMSELVES: On the seventh time we will end our work, which we have counseled; and we will rest on the seventh time from all our work which we have counseled."

You will find the above verses here Matt------ [ Abraham 4:1,3,26; 5:2. Contained in Joseph Smith. The Pearl of Great Price. Salt Lake City: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1986, pp. 38, 40.]

Is God Spirit, or is God Flesh?

The Book Of Mormon

"And the king said: IS GOD THAT GREAT SPIRIT that brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem? And Aaron said unto him: YEA, HE IS THAT GREAT SPIRIT, and he created all things both in heaven and in earth" (Alma 22:9,10a).

"And then Ammon said: Believest thou that there is a GREAT SPIRIT? And he said, Yea. And Ammon said: THIS IS GOD" (Alma 18:26-28a).

Joseph Smith:

"If the veil were rent today and the great God who holds this world on its orbit and who upholds all worlds and things by His power was to make Himself visible, - I say, if you were to see Him today, you would see Him LIKE A MAN IN FORM - like yourselves in all the person, image, and VERY FORM AS A MAN...." [Times and Seasons August 15, 1844 (quoted in Ludlow, p.277).]

"THE FATHER HAS A BODY OF FLESH AND BONES as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of spirit." [Doctrine and Covenants 130:22. Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1986, p.265]

For more Comparisons, read my topic called Contradictions

Being Bold and Blunt

Hello Everyone, Well I promised this next topic to someone who post's under Anonymous. Anyway, I suspect this person is an LDS member by the way they seem to defend mormonism.

They along with many others feel I am to Bold, Blunt, and simply Brutaly honest in my thoughts. It appers they would rather have me water down my thoughts. I think it is really sad, Mormons go out and share their Gospel with millions of people all over the world, they will not deny the convictions they have, because they feel God spoke to them. Sadly some are honest enough to tell me, they believe I am doing what I believe the Lord has told me to do, but yet they still try and tell me not to do it.

Then as I have told them before, if they are wrong, not are they only going to spend an eterinty in hell, but they are also bringing millions of people to hell with them. I see many times in the Bible, where Jesus, John the Baptist, the Apostles, Peter, Paul, Mark, Jude, Etc, are very Bold and or blunt in what they have to say to others, They don't mince words, And I am not speaking about these guys simply rebuking people in "Love" either. Here we read in 2 Timothy chapter 4:1-5

4: I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge
the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word!
Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all 3
longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure
sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have 4
itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn
their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be
watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

These questions need to be asked. Who is being Rebuked? What is Sound Doctrine verse unsound Doctrine? What are the Fables that people are turning to? I believe if you read your bible, you will find
That the people that are being rebuked are people who are teaching another Gospel, as Gal 1:8-9 teach. I believe the fables and unsound Doctrine being taught, can and is in this day and age, Mormonism. Their is much evidence to show Mormonism is a false Gospel. I have pointed out to LDS before, According to Paul in Gal 1:8-9 it talks about ANOTHER GOSPEL, THAN WHAT (I) PAUL PREACHED. I have asked mormons, from the Bible only, show me the Gospel Paul taught, then show me how this lines up with the LDS Gospel. It simply cannot be done.

Then to add to the fact that Timothy speaks about rebuking people, we read in Titus:

TITUS 1:9-16
9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict. For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and
deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." 13 This
testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works
they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

Here, Titus is very Bold and Blunt, Speaking about people using SOUND DOCTRINE, to EXORT, CONVICT those who contrdict. He talks about people whose mouths must be stopped. He also talks about Commandements of men who turn from the truth. Mormonism is full of Mens Commandements that are not of God and put you under the law. Titus Does not mince words or water down his thoughts when he says "They profess to know God, but in works
they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work." Mormons Claim they Know God, But as I have said before, Does God know you?

Remember, the scariest verses in the Bible are where God says to the people who say, "LORD, LORD, Did we not perform Mircales in your name, and do these various good works, and HE SAYS, DEPART FROM ME INTO EVERLASTING FIRE." That is scary.

Here is something Else Jesus said

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

I would rather Be Bold and Blut (HOT not Cold) and pray you come to Christ, then Hide in a closet crying, BOO HOO, They don't like me and called me names. Lets look at more Bold and Blut statments from Jesus and his Apostles.

Jhn 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables.

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

1Cr 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

Now that we have read things from the Bible, And I could add more, Lets look at what the Prophets of Mormonism have said, Like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. And My point in these statements are not, Do LDS believe these to be Scripture, like Adam God or Blood Atonment Etc. The Point is, regardless of it being Doctrine or mere Opinion, they said it and they were Bold and Blunt in the statments they said.

"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)

In Joseph Smith's history for the year 1843, we read of two fights which he had in Nauvoo: "Josiah Butterfield came to my house and insulted me so outrageously that I kicked him out of the house, across the yard, and into the street" (History of the Church, vol. 5, p.316).

"Bagby called me a liar, and picked up a stone to throw at me, which so enraged me that I followed him a few steps, and struck him two or three times. Esquire Daniel H. Wells stepped between us ... I told the Esquire to assess the fine for the assault, and I was willing to pay it. He not doing it, I rode down to Alderman Whitney, stated the circumstances, and he imposed a fine which I paid ..." (Ibid., p.524).

According to the History of the Church, Joseph Smith admitted that he had tried to choke Walter Bagby: "I met him, and he gave me some abusive language, taking up a stone to throw at me: I seized him by the throat to choke him off" (Ibid., p.531).

Joseph Smith In a fight? Wow, The prophet is in a fight, brags about it, and Even Try's to Choke the Guy. I play Judo where Choke's are allowed, but boy is that deadly if done wrong. And to think, I get grief from people for just sharing my faith.

Brigham Young once made this evaluation of Joseph Smith: "Some may think that I am rather too severe; but if you had the Prophet Joseph to deal with, you would think that I am quite mild.... He would not bear the usage I have borne, and would appear as though he would tear down all the houses in the city, and tear up trees by the roots, if men conducted to him in the way they have to me" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, pp.317-18).

Here Brigham Young even talks about how Harsh Joseph Smith was.

You are aware that when brother Cummings came to the point of loving our neighbours as ourselves, he could say yes or no as the case might be, that is true. But I want to connect it with the doctrine you read in the Bible. When will we love our neighbour as ourselves? In the first place, Jesus said that no man hateth his own flesh. It is admitted by all that every person loves himself. Now if we do rightly love ourselves, we want to be saved and continue to exist, we want to go into the kingdom where we can enjoy eternity and see no more sorrow nor death. This is the desire of every person who believes in God. Now take a person in this congregation who has knowledge with regard to being saved in the kingdom of our God and our Father, and being exalted, one who knows and understands the principles of eternal life, and sees the beauty and excellency of the eternities before him compared with the vain and foolish things of the world, and suppose that he is overtaken in a gross fault, that he has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding of his blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin, and be saved and exalted with the Gods, is there a man or woman in this house but what would say, "shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the Gods?"


All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers or sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant. He never told a man or woman to love their enemies in their wickedness, never. He never intended any such thing; his language is left as it is for those to read who have the Spirit to discern between truth and error; it was so left for those who can discern the things of God. Jesus Christ never meant that we should love a wicked man in his wickedness.

Now take the wicked, and I can refer to where the Lord had to slay every soul of the Israelites that went out of Egypt, except Caleb and Joshua. He slew them by the hands of their enemies, by the plague, and by the sword, why? Because He loved them, and promised Abraham that He would save them. And He loved Abraham because he was a friend to his God, and would stick to Him in the hour of darkness, hence He promised Abraham that He would save his seed. And He could save them upon no other principle, for they had forfeited their right to the land of Canaan by transgressing the law of God, and they could not have atoned for the sin if they had lived. But if they were slain, the Lord could bring them up in the resurrection, and give them the land of Canaan, and He could not do it on any other principle.

I could refer you to plenty of instances where men, have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins. I have seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance (in the last resurrection there will be) if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as a smoking incense to the Almighty, but who are now angels to the devil, until our elder brother Jesus Christ raises them up—conquers death, hell, and the grave. I have known a great many men who have left this Church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them. The wickedness and ignorance of the nations forbid this principle's being in full force, but the time will come when the law of God will be in full force.

This is loving our neighbour as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it. Any of you who understand the principles of eternity, if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death, would not be satisfied nor rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain that salvation you desire. That is the way to love mankind.(Brigham Young Blood Atonement Sermon:
Journal of Discourses
Vol. 4, p. 215-221)

The point about the Blood Atonment was not/is not, is it Doctrine. The Point is, it was said, it was taught, it was spoken, This is a very Bold and Blunt statement to make.
Here are some more very Bold and Blunt statements made by the Prophets.

B Young: "with a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199). I quote 3rd president John Taylor (Brigham Young quotes Mr Taylor) "Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell, the eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked onto the earth" (J.O.D 6:176). I quote Heber C. Kimball "Christians - those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about - some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth" (J.O.D 5:89).

Let me End with something The Prophet J.F.S. Said:

Doctrines of Salvation vol. 1, I quote Joseph F Smith. "CHURCH STANDS OR FALLS WITH JOSEPH SMITH. MORMONISM, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed: his claims should be rufuted, and his doctrines shown to be false".

The reason I ended with this is two fold.
1. J.F.S. Stated if JS is a false Prophet he needs to be Expoused. For the Prophet of the LDS church to say this about His own Prophet is a bold statement to make. And 2. As I keep saying, I am doing exactly what the Prophet says, and you guys get mad at me. It appers it is a case of Damned if I do, Damned if I don't.

If I follow your prophet, you get mad and tell me not to. If I dont listen to your prophet, you claim I really need to. Rick b

A different Gospel

Mormons say, they are Christians, I do not agree, they have a different Gospel and serve a different jesus, which is no god at all.


LDS Doctrines

Mormonism is at odds doctrinally with orthodox Christian faith in a multitude of ways. Here, however, we have included only a few core doctrines. These are not addressed in depth; they are instead presented very briefly as a list. For comparison and clarity the biblical position is also stated for each point of doctrine.

God

Mormonism teaches:

* There are many true Gods throughout the universe, but in this world we worship but one. (Book of Abraham 4:3ff)
* God the Father was once a man on another planet who achieved Godhood by obedience to laws and ordinances. (Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, 132)
* God is now an exalted Man of flesh and bones. (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22)

The Bible says:

* There is and ever will be only one God. (Isaiah 43:10, 11)
* God has eternally existed as God -- He is not a man. (Psalm 90:2; Psalm 50:21; Hosea 11:9)
* God is Spirit. (John 4:24; 1 Timothy 6:15, 16)

Trinity

Mormonism teaches:

* The doctrine of the Trinity is an invention of corrupted Christianity. (Evidences and Reconciliations 1:58)
* The Trinity is incomprehensible and therefore untrue. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 370, 372)
* The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three Gods, one in purpose only. (Church News 4 July 1998)

The Bible says:

* There is one God manifest in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 44:8; Romans 1:7; John 1:1; Acts 5:1-4; Matthew 28:19)
* We are unable to comprehend God completely. (Job 11:7-9; Psalm 145:3)
* Father, Son and Holy Ghost--one God in essence or nature--are also one in purpose. (Ephesians 1:4-10)

Christ

Mormonism teaches:

* Jesus is the first-born spirit child of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, and therefore the eldest spirit-brother of all mankind (Gospel Principles, 1988 edition, 9)
* Jesus is also the spirit-brother of Lucifer -- the devil (The Gospel Through the Ages, 15)
* Jesus was not always "a God," but reached perfection and a fullness of godhood after His resurrection (The Gospel Through the Ages, 51, 200; Ensign, November 1995, 87)

The Bible says:

* Jesus is eternally God, having existed as God forever (John 1:1-2, 14)
* Jesus created all things (including Lucifer) and therefore Satan's Creator, not his brother (John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16-17; Ephesians 6:12)
* Jesus presented Himself to men as God during His earthly ministry (John 5:18, 10:30-33)

Humanity

Mormonism teaches:

* Humans are co-eternal with God, uncreated, having pre-existed in a spiritual world in the presence of Heavenly Father (Gospel Principles, 1988 edition, 9; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 353)
* Humans are of the same species as God -- "gods in embryo" (We Believe, 537; Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, 130)
* Adam's Fall was "a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all of us" (Gospel Principles, 1988 edition, 33)

The Bible says:

* Humans are created by God, having their beginning on earth, not in a spiritual realm (Zechariah 12:1; 1 Corinthians 15:46)
* God foreknew all humans before their birth (Jeremiah 1:5; Psalm 139:15-16)
* Humans, through faith, become children of God by virtue of adoption; they do not share a divine nature with God (Ephesians 1:5; Romans 8:16-17, 23; Galatians 3:26; Isaiah 46:9)
* Through Adam's Fall sin entered the world, bringing all humanity under condemnation and death; humans are now born with sinful natures and will be judged for the sins each commits individually (Ezekiel 18:1-20; Romans 5:12-21)

Temples

Mormonism teaches:

* Only worthy Mormons with temple recommends (special passes) are permitted inside dedicated LDS temples (Gospel Principles, 1988 edition, 235-236)
* The endowment ceremony provides temple patrons handshakes and passwords necessary for entrance into God's presence -- Heaven (Discourses of Brigham Young, 416)
* Marriages "sealed" in LDS temples bind the couple as husband and wife beyond the grave and are necessary for attainment of the best spiritual reward (We Believe, 548)
* Ordinances (baptisms, endowments, sealings) are performed for deceased people who had no opportunity to receive these ordinances while they were on earth, giving them opportunity to be "set free" in eternity (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 366-367)

The Bible says:

* The temple was a place for blood sacrifices and burnt offerings to be offered for the sins of God's people (Leviticus 1:1-3)
* Temple sacrifices foreshadowed the future sacrifice of Christ (Hebrews 10:1-9)
* Christ made the final and sufficient sacrifice for sin; there is no longer a need for an earthly temple (Hebrews 10:12-14)
* There is no chance for repentance after death (Hebrews 9:27; Psalm 49:7)

Salvation

Mormonism teaches:

* There are two kinds of salvation: General and Individual (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:160)
* General salvation (resurrection from the dead to judgment) is a free gift from God given to all as a result of Christ's atonement (Gospel Principles, 1988 edition, 68)
* Individual salvation (spending eternity in the presence of God) is attained by a combination of God's grace plus the individual's works (Gospel Principles, 1988 edition, 68-69)
* Christ's sacrificial atonement is not sufficient to cleanse the penitent from all sin -- there are some sins beyond the reach of the work of Christ and must be atoned for by the individual (Journal of Discourses 3:247)
* There are six levels of "glory" to which people are assigned after death (Doctrine and Covenants section 76; 131:1 )
* Those obtaining the highest level become Gods, create worlds and accept worship from their children (Doctrines of Salvation 2:48; The Seer, 37)

The Bible says:

* All people will be resurrected to face God's judgment and will be consigned to either Heaven or Hell for all eternity (Matthew 25:31-46)
* Salvation (i.e., redemption from sin and reconciliation to God) is a gift of God by grace through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2:8-10; Romans 3:21-26)
* Christ's sacrificial atonement is sufficient to cleanse believers from all sin (Hebrews 9:12; 1 John 1:7)
* Christ will be of no benefit to those who seek to gain salvation on their own merits (Galatians 5:1-6; Romans 3:10-20)
* There is but one true God and there never will be any others (Isaiah 43:10-11)
* Men will not receive worship in the eternal world, but instead will give worship to the only One who is worthy to receive it (Revelation 5:12-13)

Truth

Mormonism teaches:

* The only way to know spiritual truth is to ask God in prayer to reveal it through personal revelation (Moroni 10:4-5; The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 63)
* This revelation comes in the form of a good feeling, sometimes described as a "burning in the bosom" (Uniform System for Teaching the Gospel, Instructions for the Discussions, 8)
* God gives truth a little at a time; therefore, the investigator need not learn the "deeper doctrines" before joining the LDS Church (Gospel Truth 2:8)

The Bible says:

* Feelings are deceptive and should not be trusted (Jeremiah 17:9; Proverbs 28:26; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12)
* All spirits should not be believed, but must be tried and tested to see whether they are of God (1 John 4:1)
* Any proclamation of spiritual truth is to be measured against God's Word -- the Bible (Acts 17:11; 2 Timothy 2:15; Isaiah 8:20)
* The way to discern between true and false prophets is by applying God's tests give in the Bible (Deuteronomy 13:1-5, 18:20-22)
* Believers are not to withhold information, but instead are to always be ready to answer all questions about their faith and preach the full message of new life in Christ (1 Peter 3:15; Acts 5:20; 2 Corinthians 4:2)

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints commonly use words and phrases also employed by Evangelical Christians. While the terminology may sound the same, the intended meanings are often quite different. Misunderstandings arise when words are not clearly understood, thus communication is severely hindered. In order that your discussions with a Latter-day Saint may be more productive, a short comparative list of terms is supplied below. While this list should help you better understand LDS vocabulary, it is always a good idea for all participants in a conversation to define their terms.

GODHEAD:

LDS--The unified "committee" of a Father god, his Son Jesus the Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Father god is a resurrected man with a physical body. Christ is a separate resurrected god with a physical body. The Holy Ghost is a separate god with only a spiritual body. These are three totally separate and distinct Gods.

BIBLE--A reference to the Trinity: One God eternally existent in three Persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In addition, the Bible teaches God is not a man (Numbers 23:19); There is only one God (Isaiah 43:10-11; 44:6; 45:21-22); The Father is Spirit and invisible (John 4:24; 1 Timothy 1:17).

JESUS CHRIST:

LDS--A created being, the first spirit child of Elohim and one of his wives, the spirit brother of Lucifer the devil.

BIBLE--The eternal God manifested in the flesh; the One that created all things (John 1:1-3, 14).

HOLY GHOST:

LDS--A separate God from the Father and the Son; different from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Ghost is a person whereas the Holy Spirit is an influence from Father, not personal.

BIBLE--The same Greek word is used for Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 3:16; 6:19). He is the third Person of the one triune God.

VIRGIN BIRTH:

LDS--God, as a resurrected physical man, became the literal father of Jesus in the flesh. Christ was conceived in the same physical manner in which all mortals are conceived. (LDS contend that Matthew 1:18 is in error.)

BIBLE-- The Holy Ghost, without the participation of a human (or physically embodied) father, conceived Jesus in the womb of Mary (Matthew 1:18).

SCRIPTURE:

LDS--The Bible (with reservation) plus additional revelation from God found in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. Words of latter-day Prophets are also recognized as scripture.

BIBLE--The Bible alone, which is infallible and without error, and the sole authority for all matters of Christian belief and practice (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:3).

GOSPEL:

LDS--The Mormon church system and doctrines.

BIBLE--The message of Christ's death and resurrection as atonement for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Colossians 1:22-23).

FALL:

LDS--Adam's transgression which brought mortality and physical death to humanity, but not a fallen nature. Adam was given two conflicting commandments and chose the correct one to obey.

BIBLE--The event in which Adam and Eve disobeyed the explicit command of God, bringing sin and death onto the human race. As a consequence of the Fall, humans are alienated from God and in need of a Savior. In addition, the Bible teaches God tempts no one (James 1:13-14); Man is sinful in his very nature (Romans 8:5-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14).

SIN:

LDS--Specific acts, not man's basic nature.

BIBLE--The fundamental unbelief, distrust and rejection of God as God. The Bible presents sin as both fallen humanity's state of separation and alienation from God and as an individual's purposeful disobedience to God's will. In addition, the Bible teaches we are in spiritual rebellion until conversion (Ephesians 2:3-5; Romans 5:21); We do not just commit sins, we are by nature sinful (Matthew 1:21).

REPENTANCE:

LDS--Repentance of individual acts, not of sinful nature. To repent, one must feel sincere sorrow for his sins, stop sinning and keep the commandments of God. Some serious sins also require confession to LDS priesthood authority. True repentance is evidenced by the person never committing the same sin again; if he does, it is evidence that he did not truly repent and so his former sin returns to him.

BIBLE--A deep sense that the worst thing about one's sin is that it has offended a holy God. Repentance involves turning from sin to Christ, with a sincere desire to live in obedience to His leading. It is an attitude of the heart. In addition, the Bible teaches one must repent of basic rebellion toward God (Jeremiah 17:9; Luke 5:32).

ATONEMENT--SALVATION BY GRACE:

LDS--Universal resurrection, also known as salvation by grace, brought about by Christ's suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and death on the Cross. Beyond resurrection, man must earn his own place in heaven.

BIBLE--Refers to God's act of dealing with the primary human problem of sin, which has broken the relationship between God and humankind. God accomplished the way of restoration through Christ's sacrificial death on the Cross. Salvation is not universal, but based on each individual's relationship with Jesus, being given as a free gift of grace to those who trust in Christ alone (Romans 1:16: Hebrews 9:28: Ephesians 2:8-9).

BORN AGAIN:

LDS---Baptism into the LDS church.

BIBLE--Refers to our spiritual rebirth through faith, having previously been dead in our sins (1 Peter 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:17).

REDEEMED:

LDS---Redemption from mortal death only, not sinful rebellion or spiritual death. See Atonement-Salvation By Grace.

BIBLE--Redemption through Christ from more than mortal death. He redeems us from spiritual death (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:1).

ETERNAL LIFE:

LDS--Exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom with the ability to eternally bear children in heaven. Requires an LDS temple marriage.

BIBLE--Dwelling forever in the presence of God, a free gift given to all who believe. No mention of parenthood or marriage (John 14:2; Matthew 22:30).

HEAVEN:

LDS--The eternal dwelling place of deceased humans, divided into three kingdoms: Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial with a place for almost everyone (misuse of 1 Corinthians 15:40-41).

BIBLE--The eternal dwelling place of the redeemed. The Bible does not mention various levels of heaven. Rather, there are only two post-mortal conditions: everlasting punishment or life eternal (Matthew 25:31-46).

HELL:

LDS--An eternal institution where deceased people pay for their mortal sins; inmates come and go as in jail, they do not spend eternity there. They stay until their debt to God has been paid in full.

BIBLE--A place of eternal conscious punishment for the wicked. There is no indication that people will ever be released from Hell (Revelation 21:8; Matthew 13:24-43; 47-50; Luke 16:26).

TRUE CHURCH:

LDS--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All other churches are corrupt to greater or lesser degrees.

BIBLE--The community of all true believers for all time. The Bible does not recognize an institution or denomination as God's church, but defines it as being comprised of people -- those who have been redeemed by Christ's blood (1 Corinthians 12:12-14; Matthew 16:18; 18:19-20).

PRE-EXISTENCE:

LDS--The premortal period of time between the birth of spirit children to God and their birth into mortal life. Everyone pre-existed before life on earth. All have existed eternally.

BIBLE--Refers to Christ as the only pre-existent One (John 8:58; Colossians 1:17). For humans there is no spiritual existence prior to mortality (1 Corinthians 15:46).

AUTHORITY/PRIESTHOOD:

LDS--The power and authority of God given to men to act in things pertaining to the LDS Church and salvation. Only LDS have authority to baptize, ordain, and so forth. In the LDS Church there is a two-part system of priesthood: Melchizedek and Aaronic.

BIBLE--Refers to the priesthood of believers which is the privilege and freedom of all believing Christians to stand before God in personal communion through Christ, directly receiving forgiveness without the need for human intermediaries. In addition, the Bible teaches Christ brought an end to the Aaronic priesthood and He is the ONLY High Priest after the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 5:10; 1 Peter 2:5).

Adapted from "Terminology Differences" by Jerald and Sandra Tanner