Gen 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
Gen 11:2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
Gen 11:3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
Gen 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top [may reach] unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
Gen 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people [is] one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there , that they may not understand one another's speech.
Gen 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
Gen 11:9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
Now here is the account given in the BoM, found in Ether Chapter 1:33-43
33 Which Jared came forth with his brother and their families, with some others and their families, from the great tower, at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, and swore in his wrath that they should be scattered upon all the face of the earth; and according to the word of the Lord the people were scattered.
34 And the brother of Jared being a large and mighty man, and a man highly favored of the Lord, Jared, his brother, said unto him: Cry unto the Lord, that he will not confound us that we may not understand our words.
35 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord, and the Lord had compassion upon Jared; therefore he did not confound the language of Jared; and Jared and his brother were not confounded.
36 Then Jared said unto his brother: Cry again unto the Lord, and it may be that he will turn away his anger from them who are our friends, that he confound not their language.
37 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord, and the Lord had compassion upon their friends and their families also, that they were not confounded.
38 And it came to pass that Jared spake again unto his brother, saying: Go and inquire of the Lord whether he will drive us out of the land, and if he will drive us out of the land, cry unto him whither we shall go. And who knoweth but the Lord will carry us forth into a land which is choice above all the earth? And if it so be, let us be faithful unto the Lord, that we may receive it for our inheritance.
39 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord according to that which had been spoken by the mouth of Jared.
40 And it came to pass that the Lord did hear the brother of Jared, and had compassion upon him, and said unto him:
41 Go to and gather together thy flocks, both male and female, of every kind; and also of the seed of the earth of every kind; and thy families; and also Jared thy brother and his family; and also thy friends and their families, and the friends of Jared and their families.
42 And when thou hast done this thou shalt go at the head of them down into the valley which is northward. And there will I meet thee, and I will go before thee into a land which is choice above all the lands of the earth.
43 And there will I bless thee and thy seed, and raise up unto me of thy seed, and of the seed of thy brother, and they who shall go with thee, a great nation. And there shall be none greater than the nation which I will raise up unto me of thy seed, upon all the face of the earth. And thus I will do unto thee because this long time ye have cried unto me.
Ok as you can see and read for yourself, these two accounts simply do not line up, I also did the article about the barge with holes in it, found in the Book of Ether chapter 3. So as a side note here is the Dictionary Definition of ETHER.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
e‧ther /ˈiθər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ee-ther] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. Also called diethyl ether, diethyl oxide, ethyl ether, ethyl oxide, sulfuric ether. Chemistry, Pharmacology. a colorless, highly volatile, flammable liquid, C4H10O, having an aromatic odor and sweet, burning taste, derived from ethyl alcohol by the action of sulfuric acid: used as a solvent and, formerly, as an inhalant anesthetic.
2. Chemistry. (formerly) one of a class of compounds in which two organic groups are attached directly to an oxygen atom, having the general formula ROR.
3. the upper regions of space; the clear sky; the heavens.
4. the medium supposed by the ancients to fill the upper regions of space.
5. Physics. a hypothetical substance supposed to occupy all space, postulated to account for the propagation of electromagnetic radiation through space. Compare Michelson-Morley experiment.
I am simply pointing out here that ETHER, according to the Dictionary, is or can be a really bad thing, and the accounts in the Book of Ether do not agree with the Bible.
Then, I could add that verse 43 does not line up with the account given in the Bible either.
43 And there will I bless thee and thy seed, and raise up unto me of thy seed, and of the seed of thy brother, and they who shall go with thee, a great nation. And there shall be none greater than the nation which I will raise up unto me of thy seed, upon all the face of the earth. And thus I will do unto thee because this long time ye have cried unto me.
First off, if this account were true, and it supposedly takes places at the tower of Babel, it would mean the two accounts were in the same time frame. So why do the BoM and the Bible not agree and why is it not spoken of in the Bible or by Jesus?
We read about Abraham being the father of a great nation. That nation is Isreal and we can speak with Jews today; they are spoken of in the news every day. We do not speak with people from the Jared account. I have never even heard of them in my entire life. Why is it this supposedly great nation has died out? I say died out because unlike the nation of Israel, we never read Jesus speak of the Jared group, and his "Great People" are never once mentioned in the Bible. I just put this out for people to examine the evidence for themselves, and follow Acts 17:11 and search the Scriptures for themselves.
If the BoM is false and the Bible and God are true, then there is an eternal burning lake of fire, called the second death that awaits all the people who love lies and false gospels. If the BoM is a lie and you love the BoM and believe it to be a true and accurate account, then you love a lie and are promoting this lie and false gospel every time you try and convert people to follow it.
So I would simply challenge people to show how the lack of evidence for the BoM can be true and explain why the vast difference in the two accounts. Rick b
22 comments:
Hi Rick,
Comparing the Book of Mormon with the Bible in regard to content with historical analysis is an effective way of demonstrating key differences between the Latter-Day Saints and Christianity, as you have shown. I would find it interesting to read some of the material written by scholars on these issues you deal with.
Cheers
Russ
I have read a couple of things from this blog and the only difference I see in the BoM from any other attempt of Satan to counterfeit God is that the BoM seems to go to extremely great lengths in order to do so. God is pure, holy and, believe it or not, RIGHT. All the time, every day, since before there was time. He created time. His word tells the truth, predicts the future and lets us (his kids) know more about Himself and His character. Satan's wanted to be greater than God (pride) and because of that, he is no longer "hanging out" with God. Now, he seems to spend a great deal of his time mimicking God!
Please please please, for the sake of your own eternity, consider what is the truth. Why does every other religion deny Christ and His full deity? Each one seems to deny Jesus....all of them. Why? Why don't they deny Buddha? or Mohamed? or any other spiritual icon? Our search should be for the true God, not to just be right. Some plain truth is being set out before you in this blog.......you do not have all the time in the world - time is short and hell is real - do you really want to spend all of your eternity saying "Lord, I wish I would have listened"......FYI - if your in hell and by the time that happens, He wont be listening to you anymore.
Pro 1:28
"Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.
Pro 1:29
Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD,
"Seek Me and you will find Me if you seek Me with all of your heart" Jer 29:13
God has made you a promise, why not take Him up on it?
Carey
You guys cannot be serious. Reading this post I got the impression that you were comparing an apple to an orange and saying God created apples but there is no way He could have created an orange because it doesnt taste like an apple. Therefore the oranges do not come from God.
Do you really believe that the Bible contains all of God's word to His children? Are there not any other people or cultures that could have had divine experiences that the Catholics just happened to miss or didnt have to put in the bible as we have it?
So what if there is no mention in the Bible. That means nothing. There are countless numbers of events and occurances that happened in the world that were not included in the Bible.
And since someone brought up historical analysis I can say this. The account of the Tower of Babel in the Book of Ether is a lot closer to any other historical records we have than the Bible is.
Concerning the last comment from the original post about lies and believing in them: I feel you have failed to provide any evidence at all showing me that the account in the Bible and the account in the Book of Ether is in conflict.
grorc,
In the Bible it states that we have been given all we need for life and godliness.
2Pe 1:3 "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:"
This was stated long before the alleged plates were found. Therefore, if it is not mentioned in the Bible, it does matter. God did not inspire the BoM, but He did inspire the Bible.
So according to your statement Shelli, everything after 2 Pet 1:3 can just be thrown away. Allow me to take it a step further. In Deuteronomy 4:2, Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you... This means everything added to the bible after Deuteronomy 4:2 can be thrown away too. So that means, we have everything we need to know about God in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy through Chapter 4 vs 2.
Let's be serious. Why would revelation stop if that is how God has always communicated to his children? Amos 3:7 says that God will not do anything unless he reveals it to his prophets. Are you saying God has left us on our own from here on out? No more revelation? How merciful is that? We are all down here on earth, fighting and bickering over who has the truth and who doesn't, and He's just going to leave us to ourselves to figure it out by ourselves without his help? Then why was there ever prophets? Why did the children of Israel have Moses? Was Isaiah just a man who 'claimed' to speak with God?
God loves all his children equally. You will have a lot to do to prove to me he didn't communicate with all his children. You will have even more to do to prove to me that God has not called a prophet today. He had 12 apostles then and he has them today. Show me where in the bible he said there is no need for revelation after the bible? or where he got rid of the twelve apostles saying they are no longer needed?
Hbr 1:1 ¶ "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hbr 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they."
The part in bold answers the question. Shelli
How does that answer the question?
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and to day, and forever?
Why would he all of a sudden stop the revelations? Why would he change the Gospel organization as he established it?
Eph. 2
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
There will always be a need for continual revelation. Jesus Christ is still the corner stone of His church. He set it up on the earth while he was here in the flesh. Why would he abandon it if he is the same yesterday, today, and forever?
The scripture you quote doesn't say that revelation is ended and there is no more. Where in the scriptures does it say that Jesus will no longer reveal anything? I have shared, and as the entire Christian world knows, the prophets have always been the mouthpiece for God. They recieve revelation and pass it on to the people. Why is it now that God has stopped? Please explain.
Rick: First off, if this account were true, and it supposedly takes places at the tower of Babel, it would mean the two accounts were in the same time frame. So why do the BoM and the Bible not agree and why is it not spoken of in the Bible or by Jesus?
Ok, first before I respond to your accusations concerning the validity of the People of Jared, your whole argument concerning them really boils down to this paragraph you wrote at the end.
I do not understand your reasoning that if the Jaradites are not mentioned in the Bible then they could not exist.
Why do you not understand that the people of the Bible would have no knowledge of the other people who left the disperssion at the time of the tower? The Bible doesnt say anything concerning anybody at that time except the people the Bible is about. So why would it be there?
Your argument is akin to saying that the Bible doesnt say that the sky is blue so the sky must not be blue. And what does the dictionary have to do with anything? Did you just throw that in there to show you could look up words in the dictionary?
Now concerning Jaradites. Obviously you are not in the field of anthropology and do not understand that the book of Ether and the account of the Jaradites fits remarkably well with historical and biblical knowledge of that time.
I do not see how the two accounts that you posted from the Bible and the book of Ether disagree. Could you be more specific on the ambiguities?
Shelli, how does your bolded statement negate the previous statements in the Bible? What not Christ a prophet? Where not the Apostles prophets?
Grorc, First off, on the Issue of the Dictionary. I was simply pointing out that Ether is a posion. Lovly, we have a supposed Scripture that is named after a poison. I see that as satan's handy work.
Then you said I was using "ambiguities"?
How do you figure. If Jared really was at the tower of Babel, and God said lets confound their speech, And supposdly Jared talked with God and God spared them from it, Why is it not mentioned in the Bible? The Account given in the Bible simply does not agree with the account in the BoM.
This really is a contrdiction. If they really were their togther, they might not have ever meet or knew each other, but still God would not say in one account, lets confound their speech and imply it was to and with everyone, then spare one group in the other account.
I know we will not agree, but I really believe you know in your heart your wrong but simply will not admit it. Ask any orthdox Jew about the account in the Bible and the BoM, they would laugh you out of the building. They would claim the same thing I do. But I seriously doubt you will ask an orthdox Jew about this, or claim you never meet one. Their is not even a shred of evidence the Jardites ever existed.
If they really were around at the time the tower of babel was around, why is their no evidence they ever existed? Not even the famous Smithsonian Institution has ever heard of them, they have a website you could go to and ask for evidence. they will tell you and they dont know of any others that have evidence they existed either. Rick b
Not a shred of evidence? You cannot be serious. What evidence do you have that the tower of babel even existed at all Rick? Because it is written in scripture. Where is the evidence in that? But I can give you evidence about the Jaredites, the Nephites, and the Lamanites. Take at look at all the ruins in Mexico and Central and South America. Where did they come from? Did they appear out of nowhere? This is the lands spoken of in the Book of Mormon. The Jaredites came across the sea (like unto Lehi and his family [the Nephites and Lamanites]). They settled in the Americas and thus all of the ancient ruins. So there is my physical proof. So now show me yours, that the tower of Babel existed. What evidence do you have besides the Bible? If you claim the Bible is the only evidence you need, then I claim the Book of Mormon is all I need, even though I can provide physical evidence of the Jaredites.
I find it interesting that you always look for secular evidence before you believe in spritual things. Why is that? I am not trying to imply anything, but you sound like the Pharisees and Publicans of the Bible. Always quick to judge, but never really understood the gospel. What makes the Smithsonian Institution the deciding factor? I didn't know the Smithsonian Institute was a religion. Why would you believe them over a living prophet who speaks to God and leads his church on earth today?
But I will play your little game. So tell me, what evidence does the Smithsonian Institute have on the tower of Babel? And, how do you know it's complete? Please be specific.
(here's a hint Rick: As the Smithsonian Institute states:
Even Biblical history is edited history; events were chosen to illustrate the central theme of the Bible . . . It is therefore not possible to try to "prove" the Bible by means of its historical or scientific accuracy. The only "proof" to which it can be subjected is this: Does it correctly portray the God-human relationship?)
Chuck, your kidding right?
you said What evidence do you have that the tower of babel even existed at all Rick? Because it is written in scripture. Where is the evidence in that?
So in other words, this means the BoM speaks about it, but you cannot trust the BoM simply because it says something. I am glad you think because they found ruins in mexico this proves the Jared people and others existed. Sorry that fact that ruins are not their does not prove these people existed. It only proves Humans existed, it does not prove they were or are from the BoM.
That would be like people who deny creation and believe in eveloution finding a fire pit with ape skulls lying around it. They claim, apes evolved and they made fire and ate food.
Yet people who believe in creation would find the same evidence and say look, humans ate monkeys and apes for dinner.
If you hold to modern revelation, then please give me 5 very detailed prophecys from the last 100 years from your prophets. Or give me 5 really good teachings that are on the verge of prophecys that the Prophets taught with in the last 100 years that really have helped out the LDS church.
As to the Smithsonian Institute I dont know if they have evidence of the tower of babel. But their is much evidence that the Bible is correct and true, We have the dead sea scrools, but no golden plates.
Read the account in the book of acts about the ship paul was on that was going to be shipwrecked. it tells us at first they threw two anchors over board to stop the ship. Guess what, they found the 2 anchors in the sea, cleaned them up and gave them as a gift to the president of the island of maltia as a gift. They have even written a book about it.
Their are coins and bricks that prove the city of nineveh existed.
If the battle of two million plus people took place in the BoM and it was as deadly as they claim, why is their no evidence of it? With death and destruction on that scale, their should surly be coins, armour, swords, something?
You say I find it interesting that you always look for secular evidence before you believe in spritual things. Why is that?
Simple, I dont have a blind faith, if their is evidence in the Seculiar world that the Bible is true, I will use it. God never once said in the Bible, I cannot use evidence that exists buried in the sands of time.
If you want to say, I use seculiar evidence, then with the lack of evidence of missing coins, gold plates etc, for evidence of the BoM your really going to have a hard time stating you case. It really will be simple blind faith. Rick b
Chuck -
As to your question, about the scripture in Hebrews, the Father used prophets until the time of John the Baptist. Jesus said:
Luk 16:16 "The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."
John the Baptist was the last prophet of the old testament/ covenant. Now He speaks to us through His Son, Jesus Christ. That is the gospel.
My husband explained to me what your question meant. There was a miscommunication because we did not understand what each other was saying. Since you are not born again, it will be hard for me to explain, but I will try. Yes, God used people to write the NT after Jesus' departure back into heaven. But, they were just explaining what Jesus told them and writing it down as the Holy Spirit moved upon them.
We do not need ongoing revelation because Jesus is the final authority.
1Cr 14:3-4 "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men [to] edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church."
1Cr 14:29 "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge."
1Cr 14:32-33 "And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."
In other words, if the Prophecy does not line up with God's revealed word, the Bible, it is disreguarded as false. Because Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever, His message does not change.
Everyone in this world can look around and see God's creation and know there is a Creator. From that point, each person must choose whether they will seek the Creator or reject Him. God says, if you seek Him, you will find Him, when you search for Him with your whole heart. If you choose to reject Him, it is because you want to. He does speak to each of us, but not everyone is listening to His voice.
Shelli, although it is written in type, I can feel the sincerity of your response. I must say though, I have been born again. So I do understand what you are saying. Allow me to clarify something you may have missed.
You said: Luk 16:16 "The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."
John the Baptist was the last prophet of the old testament/ covenant.
Do you realize where you are pulling the quoted scripture from? You are quoting what the Pharisees were using as a rebuttal when Jesus was trying to teach them how far off from God they were. Do you see how this conflicts with the gospel? If I recall the Pharisees were in conflict with Jesus all the time. Why now all of a sudden do their concepts take presidence?
However, lets see how things were handled among those called by Jesus. After he was crucified, the apostles were gathered together to see who would replace Judas.
Acts 1:22-26
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
So you see. Even after the death of Jesus, He, being Jesus, continued calling apostles and prophets to lead the church. They were ordained to these positions. So it only stopped when the wicked killed all of the apostles and the authority was taken from the earth in what is known as the apostacy. That is when God ceased all communication with man because of wickedness.
You said: Because Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever, His message does not change.
That is absolutely correct! So why would He change the organization of His church? He established it that way.
Eph. 2
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
That is how He established His church, with the foundation built upon apostles and prophets, Himself being the chief cornerstone. Why would he change it now if he is the same yesterday, today and forever? Why would it change?
Chuck, your not born again, you have a false Jesus and false Gospel.
But I find it really funny that you use the Verses from Acts
Acts 1:22-26
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
First off, when you use verse 22, where it says must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
First off notice the word (MUST). Then this is sinful man who does not understand their scripture, Jesus even rebuked them for not knowing the Scripture.
They said, (must one be ordained) The answer is no.
Then when you use verses 23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen
Notice again it says, They Appointed, Notice it does not say, God appointed or called. Then I know you feel Verse 24 proves it was of God, But notice these men are limting God, by only giving God a choice of TWO men.
This does not prove that God was involved. Then show me verse that even mention (Matthias) Ever again. This minstry was going to the Apostle paul.
Chuck said
Do you realize where you are pulling the quoted scripture from? You are quoting what the Pharisees were using as a rebuttal when Jesus was trying to teach them how far off from God they were. Do you see how this conflicts with the gospel? If I recall the Pharisees were in conflict with Jesus all the time. Why now all of a sudden do their concepts take presidence?
Please show me the scripture to support this.
Shelli Said You said: Because Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever, His message does not change.
Then Chuck said
That is absolutely correct! So why would He change the organization of His church? He established it that way.
Eph. 2
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
That is how He established His church, with the foundation built upon apostles and prophets, Himself being the chief cornerstone. Why would he change it now if he is the same yesterday, today and forever? Why would it change?
Chuck, Gods message has not changed. God still speaks to us and his message is still the same, Instead of using Prophets he uses His Son, as Hebrews teaches and He uses us, Read the Great commission.
If God told us to go out and spread His Message, why would he need the prophets also. Rick b
First, my apologies. I misread the scriptures in Luke 16:16. It is in fact Jesus speaking to the Pharisees, not the other way around.
Rick said: Chuck, your not born again, you have a false Jesus and false Gospel.
Are you saying there is more than one Jesus Christ? The Jesus Christ I believe in is the same from the New Testament that died for the sins of all man-kind. It is his Gospel I study and abide by. That very same Gospel I spent two years preaching to the good people of Mexico. So unless you believe in a different one, then we believe in the same Jesus Christ. Therefore you are calling our Lord and Savior a false Jesus Christ. If that is the case, He will be asking you about that when you arrive at his jusdgement seat. Be prepared. Your earthly deceit will not work with him. If it is not that case, then let's agree that we believe in the same Jesus Christ and His Gospel, but our beliefs about the Gospel are different. It is probably more fair to say that we believe each other is incorrect about who has the truth. Would you agree? Let's not drag our Saviour through the mud because of our differences. There is only one Jesus Christ. We are both christians, but of differing faith.
Rick said: They said, (must one be ordained) The answer is no.
Rick, I don't see a question mark anywhere in that verse. The apostles were making a statment. And to the point of the 'appointing.' I refer to the intent declared in vs. 22. Their intent was to ordain the next apostle as to be selected by Jesus. They prayed to the Lord and asked to be shown who HE selected to take the place of Judas That he (being the newly selected apostle) may take part of this ministry and apostleship. Do not confuse a statement with a question. It is clear, along with other posts I have made, that man must be called of God to work in the ministry. We have covered that many times. This is just additional evidence of that truth.
For better clarity, go to Acts 1 and start reading from vs. 15 through the end of the chapter. Peter lead the meeting the disciples were at where they were filling the vacancy left in the twelve by the fall and eventual death of Judas.
Rick said: Chuck, Gods message has not changed. God still speaks to us and his message is still the same, Instead of using Prophets he uses His Son,
The part I take issue with is where you say INSTEAD. If he doesn't change, then why would he do away with Prophets. Don't confuse the calling of a prophet with the personal inspiration we are given.
A prophet is one who teaches by the voice of inspiration the words of eternal life, and who officiates in the saving ordinances of the gospel. We are all intitled to inspiration, but we are not all entitled to speak on behalf of Jesus Christ for all fellow-man. Why would God allow such confusion? Everyone rising up saying they are a prophet and God said to do this while another says to do that? This is why he needs prophets. The same reason he has needed them since the beginning with Adam. You're right, God has not changed his message, but the bible said he is the same... not just the message, but God is the same in all his actions, perfectness, etc.
It's interesting to me. The Bible covers a wide span of years. From Adam through the apostles in the new testament. It's littered with prophets from start to finish. I would love for anyone to explain why now God would stop using prophets after using them for so long. Can you explain that? Why would God change his ways as you claim he has?
Chuck, You do have another Jesus and a false Gospel. It is not a matter of us both being Christians but viewing the verses Differently.
Read Gal 1:8-9. Read your Bible in general, It speaks over and over about false prophets, false teachers, a different Gospel Etc. You will ask, how am I having a different Gospel compared to yours. Read over my entire blog, it covers the differences.
About the prophets issue, you said
It's interesting to me. The Bible covers a wide span of years. From Adam through the apostles in the new testament. It's littered with prophets from start to finish. I would love for anyone to explain why now God would stop using prophets after using them for so long. Can you explain that? Why would God change his ways as you claim he has?
First off Does God have the Right to do whatever he wants? This includes stopping using prophets? Then their was not Prophets from the first day of Adam till now. With Adam and Eve in the Garden, God spoke directly to them, Even after they were kicked out of the garden God spoke to them. God spoke to Cain about killing Able, God did not speak to Cain from the mouth of a prophet.
God spoke to Noah, Again he did not use prophets, Before God called Abram, to be the father of the Jewish nation, he did not use a prophet. So sorry you are incorrect. Then as it was pointed out to you, God speaks to us through his word and His son, Just as it tells us in Hebrews.
Then you say, We are all intitled to inspiration, but we are not all entitled to speak on behalf of Jesus Christ for all fellow-man. Why would God allow such confusion? Everyone rising up saying they are a prophet and God said to do this while another says to do that? This is why he needs prophets.
Your Kidding Right? Your prophets have had so much confusin among them saying things that dont agree or contrdict each other, It is so bad, the LDS blow it off by saying, Thats His Opinion.
Then Shelli Points out to you, from the Scripture what a prophet is to do, and how if ANY ONE says or Teaches anything that does not line up with Gods Word they are wrong.
Then you ask, why all the Confusion, one person says this, another person says that. First off read the Book of James, We are sinners that want our own way and want what we want. Then As I said before, we have false prophets and teachers. Paul said the false teachers will come in and not spare the flock.
So you must either not believe people could or will lie for selfish gain, or you dont believe the Bible, when it speaks about these people.
Read 1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do].
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and [of] a good conscience, and [of] faith unfeigned:
1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
The verses from 1st Timothy 1:3-7 Teach that their are false Doctrines and false teachers, If you have a false Doctrine, then that means your Gospel, god and jesus are all false and cannot save you. Plus read Jude and the great white throne Judgment in the Book of revelation.
If you read 1st Timothy Chapter 3 it gives qualifcations for deacons and overseers, no where do we read Jesus or the disaples giving qualifications for the priesthood and having this athourity.
Read 1st Tiomthy 4:6-16 1Ti 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
1Ti 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself [rather] unto godliness.
1Ti 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
1Ti 4:9 This [is] a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
1Ti 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
1Ti 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
1Ti 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
1Ti 4:15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Again, These verses speak both about us reading and using the correct Doctrine, false tales exist and in verse 16, this is enough to save us, yet no mention of this coming from the mouth of prophets.
Chuck, I am not going to keep going back and forth on this issue, I have given scripture and explained why, You and I will disagree on our views but I want to leave room for other to ask questions or leave replys.
People wont it this gets to long, Yes I missed answering part of your question about the Book of Acts, not because I think your correct, but wanted to adress these other issues with out getting to long into a reply. Rick b
Rick, you said about the Gospel: Read over my entire blog, it covers the differences.
You are basing your decision on the ASSUMPTION that you have the truth. I agree there are differences, but like all other religions claim to have the truth in error, you are doing likewise.
You also said: Then their was not Prophets from the first day of Adam till now.
Well then what is Peter saying when he speaks in Acts 3:21 ... which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began?
And in Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
And in Luke 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets which have been since the world began.
And in Ephesians 2:20 the foundation of the Church of Jesus Christ, the very same he established, is built upon the foundation of prophets. Why would he change his church? Why would he change the foundation.
You said: Then as it was pointed out to you, God speaks to us through his word and His son, Just as it tells us in Hebrews.
How do you think we got that word? Just a bunch of random people writing it down? The bible is made up of prophets. Adam, Moses, Joshua, Noah, Jacob, and on, and on. That is how we get His word. Through the prophets.
Moses made it clear as quoted by Peter in Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Come on Rick, you said no where do we read Jesus or the disaples giving qualifications for the priesthood and having this athourity. Yet I have made it abundantly clear in another blog. I will restate it here.
If authority is not required, why then would Jesus call his twelve disciples together, and give them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases? And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. (Luke 9:1-2) And when he is speaking to his apostles and says, 'Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained, you...' (John 15:16). I will remind you what the definition of ordained is: To invest with ministerial or priestly authority. Paul and Barnabas continued the practice 'when they had ordained them elders in every church.' (Acts 14:23) And that's just the bible references.
Now. How does one obtain the authority or be 'ordained' into the priesthood of God? It is clearly stated in Hebrews chapter 5:
1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God...
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
This states that he must be called as was Aaron. How was Aaron called? Read Exodus 40:13-15.
So when it says in Hebrews, that 'no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron,' you can see in Exodus, that God has established how the priesthood authority is given. It was passed on by those who have the authority. The chain is unbroken.
It is also clear in Acts 1:15-26. Matthias is called by the Lord to fill the vacancy in the 12 apostles left by Judas.
It talks about ordination in the Old Testiment too:
Jeremiah 1:5 ... and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
The bible is clear that not only are YOU teaching false doctrine, but you are doing it WITHOUT the authority of God.
You are right, we could keep going back and forth. But that is because you are unwilling to accept the truth.
Matt. 15:8-9
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Chuck, Hope this helps
The Mormon Church makes much of the claim of being led by modern prophets and apostles. Such Biblical passages as 1 Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 2:20, 4:11, which speak of the existence of apostles and prophets in the Church, are often cited in support of the necessity of modern day prophets and apostles. As the Mormon Church has individuals who are labelled "apostles" and "prophets", it claims that this is evidence that it is Christ’s true Church restored to earth.
It must be remembered though that it is an easy thing to simply 'label' someone as an apostle or prophet. Indeed, many breakaway groups from the Mormon Church also claim to be the "one true Church", and have these leaders with these titles.
Many Mormons may be surprised to know that Christian churches can also be said to have apostles and prophets in them, in a general sense, operating in the life and ministry of the Church. For the Christian, an apostle can refer to anyone who is ‘sent fourth’. This is the meaning of the word in 2 Corinthians 8:23, for example. So in one sense, Christian missionaries can be called "apostles".
Likewise a prophet can refer to anyone who is in close communion with God through the Holy Spirit. As we will see below, this is a gifting that operates in the life of the believer and is given to whoever the Holy Spirit desires to give this gift to. Even the LDS Bible Dictionary, under the entry for "Prophet" states: "in a general sense a prophet is anyone who has a testimony of Jesus Christ by the Holy Ghost."
Many Christians today would see the roles of prophets and apostles as being a gifting rather than an actual office. This seems to be the way in which it is being used in 1 Corinthians 12:28, where it is speaking of apostles and prophets, but also such things as miracles, gifts of healings, tongues, etc. In fact, the wider context 1 Corinthians chapters 12, right through to 14, is talking about spiritual gifts and not offices.
We can see the gift of prophecy at work in the early Church. Contrary to the male dominated role of Mormon prophets, the New Testament speaks of women exercising this gifting. The Bible speaks of men and women prophesying (Acts 2:17-18). Philip the Evangelist had four virgin daughters who prophesied (Acts 21:8-9). Instructions were given to the women who prophesied in the Church (1 Cor. 11:5). The Old Testament also speaks of the role of prophet for woman (Ex.15:20; Judges 4:4; 2 Kings 22:14).
The position that many Christians take on the issue of prophets and apostles, is therefore, that the Old Testament style prophets ceased with the ministry of John the Baptist, who made the way for Jesus and the New Covenant. Luke 16:16 says: "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." Nevertheless, even though the office of Old Testament Prophet ceased many Christians believe that the gift of prophecy still functions. Although God spoke through the prophets to communicate His will in the past, His ultimate way of speaking is now through Jesus Christ (Heb. 1:1-2). Jesus alone is our true Prophet (Heb. 1:1-2), Apostle (Heb. 3:1), Priest (Heb. 5:9-10, 7:24), Mediator (Heb. 7:25, 9:15; 1 Tim. 2:5), and King (1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 17:14, 19:16). What more could we ever need?
Some final points for Mormons to consider on this whole issue: Even though Mormons often boast of having a "living prophet", in contrast to Christian churches who do not claim to have such an individual to lead them (except Christ), there are various difficulties that arise.
* Why was the Mormon Prophet misled by Mark Hofmann’s forgeries in the 1980’s. If the Mormon leader of the time was truly a prophet, it should have been revealed to him that Hoffman’s documents were forgeries and not genuine.*
* Why have no more books been added to the Mormon Canon of Scripture, via the direct revelation that is available to the prophet?
* For those who insist that Joseph Smith never completed his "Inspired Version of the Bible" (or Joseph Smith Translation), why hasn’t any of the LDS prophets continued the work since Smith’s death? They are disobeying the commands in the Doctrines and Covenants which clearly say that the new Bible should be published (Doctrine and Covenants, 73:3, 4; 94:10; 124:89).
* One of the key differences between the Biblical prophets and the Mormon Prophets is that there were often a number of prophets functioning at the same time. Even the favourite verses that Mormons cite, such as 1 Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 2:20, 4:11, speak of "prophets", in the plural, not ‘prophet‘, as is seen in the Mormon Church system. The Mormon Church is aware of this however, and sidesteps the issue by saying that there apostles are also prophets as well. However, despite paying lip service to this, anyone who investigates the Mormon Church soon discovers that major emphasis is placed on the Prophet, and current President of the Church.
* It should also be noted that another difference between the LDS Church system of government, is that the often quoted texts that speak of apostles and prophets (1 Cor. 12:28; Eph. 2:20, 4:11) always list "apostles" as being first, then prophets. 1 Corinthians 12:28 not only list them in this order but even adds that "God has appointed in the Church firstapostles, second prophets..." The Mormon Church places the emphasis the other way round, with prophets first, then apostles as secondary.
* Is interesting to observe that none of the last few LDS prophets have actually prophesied anything to include in the Mormon Canon of Scripture.
* The Mormon Church government has offices that never existed in the early Church. For example: High Priests, Patriarch to the Church, First Presidency.
This was written by vince, from spotlight as well as the (Thats his opnion topic.)
Let me start by saying this: You can quote a scripture here and there, but I have already shown that Jesus ordained prophets and apostles even after John the Baptist. I am not sure why you keep quoting Luke 16:16, as the references I provide for ordination (or calling to the office) by Jesus Christ is well after John the Baptist.
You said: It must be remembered though that it is an easy thing to simply 'label' someone as an apostle or prophet.
You are correct. That is exactly how all Christians obtain the title. But in order to be 'called of God' as a prophet you must be ordained as I have explained in much depth. So you are right, many can label themselves as prophets, but the only Prophet that can speak on behalf of Jesus Christ must be called and ordained.
You said: * Why was the Mormon Prophet misled by Mark Hofmann’s forgeries in the 1980’s.
What makes you think he was? Who is to say he didn't already know. If you are familiar with the Book of Mormon as you claim to be, this same issue arose with Alma and Amulek.
You said: * Why have no more books been added to the Mormon Canon of Scripture
Why do more books need to be added to the 'Mormon Canon'? You make it sound as if this is the soul purpose of a prophet. We consider the information given to us by all the Apostles and Prophets to be scripture. We get printed versions of every conference in the Ensign. This we consider scripture.
You said: * For those who insist that Joseph Smith never completed his "Inspired Version of the Bible"
I have never heard this one before. But since you claim that Jesus Christ has the last word and you don't need a prophet, why don't you ask him. Get back to world. Let us know what he says.
You said: The Mormon Church places the emphasis the other way round, with prophets first, then apostles as secondary.
Have you even read the bible? Why don't you ask the same of it? Why does the bible put more emphasis on the prophets since the beginning of time than it has the apostles?
You said: Is interesting to observe that none of the last few LDS prophets have actually prophesied anything to include in the Mormon Canon of Scripture.
I'm not sure what you mean by this? What is it you expect him to prophesy about? A prophet is one who teaches by the voice of inspiration and officiates in the saving ordinances of the Gospel. You might be refering to predicting; however, that is only one qualification of a prophet. But likewise, where are your prohpesies? You claim that christians label themselves as prophets, where are all the christian prophesies?
You said: The Mormon Church government has offices that never existed in the early Church. For example: High Priests, Patriarch to the Church, First Presidency.
High Priest? Are you serious? You obviously want so bad to convert me to your erroneous way of thinking that you don't even read my comments. Last comment, I pointed out right where it talks about High Priests in the New Testament. You shoud re-read it. Study it. Pray about it. You will understand it better. Don't be so quick to spew rhetoric that you don't read. I have clearly show this in my posting.
Partiarch? Please READ the bible. Here are a few scriptures.
Acts 2:29
Hebrew 7:4
So I continue to answer your questions, but you have yet to clarify the information I have provided and asked you about.
I have spoken of the ordination, by Jesus himself, of the apostles. How do you answer that?
Hebrews chapter 5:
1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God...
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
If authority is not required, why then would Jesus call his twelve disciples together, and give them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases? And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. (Luke 9:1-2)
Why would jesus bother to give them power and authority if it was just going to disappear from the earth as you claim?
And when he is speaking to his apostles and says, 'Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained, you...' (John 15:16).
You have not answered this in at least two different blogs? Why would Jesus ordain apostles if it doesn't matter?
The truth cannot be denied any longer. If you continue to disagree with the doctrine I have outlined, it's because of your pride. Do not let pride keep you from the truth.
The scriptures have made it clear. Jesus Christ established his church on earth while he was in the flesh. That same organization exists today as I have described, with a living prophet at the head of His church. Twelve apostles have been called and ordained to minister to men in the things of God.
Unless you can answer the question Why would Jesus ordain apostles if it doesn't matter? with any validity.
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