works and the law, part 1

I am going to cover the issue of keeping the law and needing works to help in our salvation. I am thinking I will do this in 3 parts. So if your question is not covered in the part I have posted, and you ask, well what about this verse, whatever that verses is, I might tell you that will be adressed in the next part. But others are more than welcome to adresse it right then and their.

Lets start with what the LDS church teaches about these things. Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie, salvation must be understood in light of these two definitions:

1. "Unconditional or general salvation, that which comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected. In this sense salvation is synonymous with immortality; it is the inseparable connection of body and spirit so that the resurrected personage lives forever."
2. "Conditional or individual salvation, that which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience, consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one's mortal probation" (Mormon Doctrine pp. 669-670).

McConkie Also said

"those who gain only this general or unconditional salvation will still be judged according to their works and receive their places in a terrestrial or a telestial kingdom. They will, therefore be damned." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 669).

On pages 211-212 of his book The Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer Kimball the LDS PROPHET chastised members who

"are doing nothing seriously wrong except in their failures to do the right things to earn their salvation".

Bruce McConkie goes on to say again,

"Salvation grows automatically out of the resurrection, and the coming forth in the resurrection constitutes the receipt of whatever degree of salvation has been earned." (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 1:196).

Then in volume three of the same set, he wrote,

"Salvation is free,' but it must also be purchased; and the price is obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (3:461).

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism states that

"for repentance to be complete, one must abandon the sinful behavior...Failure to alter outward actions means that the sinner has not repented, and the weight of the former sin returns" (3:1217).

Spencer Kimball teaches,

"discontinuance of sin must be permanent"

(The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 176).


President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote,

"To enter the celestial and obtain exaltation it is necessary that the whole law be kept...Do you desire to enter the celestial Kingdom and receive eternal life? Then be willing to keep all of the commandments." (The Way to Perfection, pg. 206).

Mormonism teaches that this lifetime is a probation period. Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie stated:

"One of the great purposes of this mortal probation is to test and try men, to see if they will keep the commandments and walk in the light no matter what environmental enticements beckon them away from the straight and narrow path" (Mormon Doctrine, pg.229).

The purpose of this lifetime is for the Mormon to prove himself worthy of exaltation. To fail in that capacity will result in never reaching that celestial goal.

President Joseph Fielding Smith said

if they rebelled and refused to comply with the laws and ordinances which were provided for their salvation, it would deny them the great gift and they would be assigned, after the resurrection, to some inferior sphere according to their works. (Doctrines of Salvation 1:69)

This agrees with Alma 34:32-33,

"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors... And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed."

It seems clear that while some Mormons feel they can get things right after death, this is not supported by LDS teaching.

Tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith said compliance with the law, not willingness, was necessary to obtain Godhood.

"This mortal probation was to be a brief period, just a short span linking the eternity past with the eternity future. Yet it was to be a period of tremendous importance. It would either give to those who received it the blessing of eternal life, which is the greatest gift of God, and thus qualify them for godhood as sons and daughters of our Eternal Father, or, if they rebelled and refused to comply with the laws and ordinances which were provided for their salvation, it would deny them the great gift and they would be assigned, after the resurrection, to some inferior sphere according to their works. This life is the most vital period in our eternal existence (Doctrines of Salvation 1:69).

The Book of Mormon teaches,

"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors" (Alma 34:32).

Spencer Kimball teaches, a mere willingness to try to overcome sinful tendencies is not enough. He asserted,

"Trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin."

He went on to say, "To 'try' is weak. To 'do the best I can' is not strong. We must always do better than we can" (Miracle, pp.164-165).

It appers as if Grace plus works, after all we can do, is simply impossible, or very close to it, Look at how Tenth Mormon President Joseph Fielding Smith does not offer a lot of hope for many professing Latter-day Saints when he said,

"There will not be such an overwhelming number of the Latter-day Saints who will get there" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:15).

Smith agreed with Apostle Francis M. Lyman's assessment that "if we save one-half of the Latter-day Saints, that is, with an exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God, we will be doing well."

Bruce McConkie said that damnation will affect many types of individuals. On pages 176-177 of his book Mormon Doctrine, he stated that damnation will be experienced by those who are sons of perdition. On page 746 of the same book he describes sons of perdition as Lucifer, the demons (Mormonism teaches that the demons are God's spirit-children who chose to follow Lucifer in the "war in heaven"), and "those who have a perfect knowledge of the divinity of the gospel cause...then link themselves with Lucifer and come out in open rebellion."

Then, McConkie expands the definition of damnation to also include "those who fail to gain an inheritance in the celestial kingdom" as well as those "who fail to gain exaltation in the highest heaven within the celestial world, even though they do gain a celestial mansion in one of the lower heavens of that world" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 176).


Lots of mormons have told me that if they die and only enter the first or second heaven they will have a chance to still move up to the 3rd heaven. Not so according to these guys. 10th President Joseph Fielding Smith said,

"It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory? The answer to this question is, No! The scriptures are clear on this point" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:31).

Doctrine and Covenants 25:15 says

"Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come."

Some Questions to think about?

* Joseph Smith said that a person "would get nearer to God by abiding by [the Book of Mormon's] precepts than by any other book" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 194). Just what are those "precepts" from the Book of Mormon that God wants you to follow that cannot be found in other books like the Bible?

* Alma 11:37 says that "no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven"? Are you clean? How did you get that way? And how long does this cleansing last?

* Alma 11:37 also says that, as a Mormon, you "cannot be saved in your sins." D&C 1:31 adds that God cannot "look upon sin with the least degree of allowance." Do you struggle with sin? If so, can it be assumed that you are not saved?

* As a Mormon I am sure you take repentance very seriously. However, on page 67 of the LDS Church manual Gospel Fundamentals it states, "Our Father in heaven does not sin, and He does not allow people who sin to live with Him. To live with Him we must repent of our sins. To repent means to feel sorry for our sins and stop doing them." Have you stopped sinning? If not, how can you be sure you will live eternally with Heavenly Father? If the above statement is true, doesn't the fact you continually repent, prove you are not truly repentant; after all, people who stop sinning have no need to repent.

* D&C 25:15 says that unless a person keeps the commandments "continually," he cannot go where God is. Do you keep the commandments continually? If not, where do Mormons like you go when they die?

* If you cannot say that you do keep the commandments "continually," then how do you explain 1 Nephi 3:7 where it says, "For I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them"?

* Isaiah 44:6,8 says that there is no God beside the God of the Bible and that this God does not know of any other gods. If this is Jesus (Jehovah) speaking—as attested to by such LDS leaders as Apostle Bruce McConkie (The Promised Messiah, p.312)—does that mean Jesus does not know His own Father? If you were to actually become a god, would God know you?

* In Alma 11:26-29 Amulek tells Zeezrom that there is only one "true and living God." If that is true, which of the three Gods in the Mormon godhead is not true and/or living? God the Father? Jesus? Or the Holy Ghost?

* If we are to believe that the Nephites are truly ancient "Mormons," where in the Book of Mormon does it say they held the Melchizedek priesthood? Where does it say they practiced baptism for the dead? Or believe that men can become Gods? How about God having a body of flesh and bones? What about the existence of a "heavenly mother"? Where does it say that all humans existed prior to this earthly existence? Or how Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?

* D&C 88:22 says that only those who abide a celestial law can hope to achieve the celestial kingdom. Are you keeping celestial law?

* If the "decrees of God are unalterable" (Alma 41:8), why has your church made so many corrections over the years (i.e. Declarations 1 and 2, changes in the temple endowment ceremony, changes in the birth control doctrine, etc.)?

* Your leaders have taught that salvation comes by faith and works. If this is true, then why did Joseph Smith insert the word "alone" into Romans 3:28 of his Inspired Version (a.k.a. the Joseph Smith Translation) of the Bible? (It reads, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law.")

* Joseph Smith inserted the word not in Romans 4:5 of the Inspired Version so that it reads, "...who justifieth not the ungodly..." Are you "godly"? If so, how did you get that way? If not, doesn't that mean you are not justified before God? Why would God need to justify a godly person anyway?

* President Brigham Young concluded his Adam-God sermon with these words: "Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation" (Journal of Discourses 1:51). Do you believe Adam is God? If not, aren't you treating these "doctrines" lightly or with indifference"? Wasn't Spencer Kimball treating Young's teaching with indifference when he called it a "false doctrine" (Church News 10/9/76)? If Young was correct, will Kimball be damned? If Kimball was correct, doesn't this prove LDS prophets can teach false doctrine?

* Alma 10:3 states that Lehi "was a descendant of Manasseh." If Indians are really descendants of Lehi and his son Laman, why does DNA deny any link between Indians and Lehi's Jewish heritage?

* Joseph Smith said, "We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345). But the Book of Mormon says in Moroni 8:18, "For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity." Did God change? Or was He always God?

* President Brigham Young and other LDS leaders taught that those who were not valiant in the preexistence were marked in mortality with a "flat nose and black skin." (See Journal of Discourses 7:290, The Way to Perfection, p.101, Answers to Gospel Questions 2:175, Mormon Doctrine, p.527.) Since it was this mark that would help distinguish who was not eligible to receive the priesthood, why do some people still bear the mark even though the priesthood ban was lifted in 1978?

* Presidents Brigham Young and Wilford Woodruff both taught that God is progressing in knowledge (Journal of Discourses 11:286, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p.3). Yet President Joseph Fielding Smith said that "this kind of doctrine is very dangerous" (Doctrines of Salvation 1:8). Which prophet was telling the truth?

* When asked in a Time magazine interview if God the Father was once a man, President Gordon Hinckley said, "I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it..." (8/4/97, p. 56). Was he telling the truth?

* Are you "sufficiently humble" and "stripped of pride"? If not, Alma 5:27,28 says you are not prepared to die. If you think you are, doesn't this prove you're not?

* Apostle Bruce R. McConkie said "a man may be damned for a single sin" (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary 3:257). Can you account for every single sin you have ever committed?

* President Spencer Kimball said that only those who are "living all the commandments" are guaranteed "total forgiveness of sins" and assured of "exaltation" (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.208). Are you living all of the commandments? If not, how can you be sure you are forgiven?

* Spencer Kimball also taught that "each command we obey sends us another rung up the ladder to perfected manhood and toward godhood; and every law disobeyed is a sliding toward the bottom where man merges into the brute world" (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.133). How tall is this proverbial ladder? And which rung are you on?

* President Joseph F. Smith said, "...it is absolutely necessary for every man and woman in the Church of Christ to work righteousness, to observe the laws of God, and keep the commandments that He has given, in order that they may avail themselves of the power of God unto salvation in this life" (General Conference Report, October 1907, p.3) Yet Titus 3:5 states clearly that salvation is not gained by "works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy." How can salvation be wrought by God's mercy if you earned it through good works?

* In Ephesians 2:8,9 the Apostle Paul states, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." When Paul uses the word "saved," is he making a reference to a general resurrection or exaltation?

* The Apostle John stated, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13). If you were to die right now, do you know for certain if you will have eternal life? If not, when will you finally know? Wouldn't you like to have this issue settled before you die? Do you think you ever will if you remain in the Mormon Church?

The section I posted about questions to think about, was taken From the Mormonism researech minstry website. So the question I will ask is, Would you rather try keeping the entire law, or simply allow grace that God gives to save you? Rick b

Word of Wisdom pt3

Let me first post the verses I want to go over.

8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.
10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.
12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.
14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;
15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.
16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—
17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.
18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;
19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;
20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.
21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

Ok, lets start with this.

8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

Ok, I do not smoke, and I believe it is a waste of money, But apart from that, Honestly how many faithful LDS members can say, they use tobacco for bruises or how many LDS know of cattle ranchers who use tobacco on the livestock they own?

10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.
12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

From the time of Adam and Eve in the garden till the time Noah stepped of the Ark, we were only allowed to eat fruit and herbs. After Noah stepped of the Ark, then we were allowed to eat meat. But in verses 12 and 13 it states meat is both to be used sparingly and only in times of winter or famine.

I am guessing that LDS are not going with a complete Vegan diet in the summer. If not then you either are not obeying the WOW or you dont take these verses seriously. Why is that?

Ok, Chuck the LDS member quoted much from the OT in the way of verses that state certain people could not eat Raisins, or grapes because they are fruit from the vine and could be made into wine, and wine is a big no, no, according to the WOW. Then Chuck stated these were laws for all to follow, well here is another problem, read verse16

All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground

In verse 16, we read, we can partake of the fruit of the vine. No where in the entire WOW does it say what the fruit of the vine is, or is not. Grapes grow on vines, once the grapes are removed and dried they form raisins, Well according to the verse Chuck quoted and the things he said, these verse prove and are laws saying we cannot eat from the fruit of the vine, Now the WOW says we can. Strange.

Here in verse 17 we read

17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

Grain can be used for mild drinks. So what are Mild drinks made with Barly or grain? Beer is mild compared to whisky. what about Hot mild drinks, Does this mean that any mild drink must be served cold? If so why not cold coffee or tea?

What about these verses here?

18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;
19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;
20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.
21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

I have posted over 500 replys on the fairLDS board, When over their I talked with many LDS who admited they do not fully follow the WOW to the letter. If your reading this topic, you could post and say you follow the WOW to the letter, I do not know if your lying or not, only you do, But for all the LDS who know in their heart that they do not fully obey the WOW, I would ask this, Has the destorying angel destoryed you?

If not, then is that a lie? Or will God destory you at a latter time? What about the verse in the Bible where Jesus said,

Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:20 These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, [it] cannot defile him;

So according to Jesus, it is not what goes into us (Coffee, tea, wine, meat Etc) that defiles us, but what comes out of us. Rick b

Word of Wisdom pt2

Were Going to Focus on Verses 5-9 in this part of the WOW. First lets review what they say.
5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.
7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

Let me start by saying this, If anyone wants to follow a certain Diet, or eat or drink certain things and not others for any reason, Then good for you. But to say that if we eat certain foods God will not allow us into Heaven is a false teaching.

Lets first read what the Bible teaches on this subject.
In Acts 10 we read about God telling peter to kill and eat.

Act 10:10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
Act 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Act 10:15 And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.
Act 10:16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Another list of verses we read is

Mat 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

Rom 14:21 [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.

1Cr 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

1Cr 9:4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?

1Cr 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

1Ti 3:8 Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Tts 2:3 The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things.

Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Luk 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Mar 2:22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Ok, I gave a list of verses that show God, Jesus and the apostles Drank Wine and do not condemn the drinking of any beverage. For all the people that want to claim the wine Jesus drank was non-alcoholic
then I must ask this, Why was Jesus accused of being a drunk? You cannot be accused of being a drunk if you drink grape juice. And I might add if wine does not contain alcohol why not simply call it grape Juice. Plus the fact Jesus used the example of new wine bursting old wine skins shows that the wine is fermennting, theirfore it does contain Alcohol.

I would ask this also, Why would God or the Bible provide verses that allow people to drink and include wine, and never mention the fact that if you do this you cannot enter the 3rd heaven, But years later God changes his mind and will keep you out of heaven for drinking something?

I would like to point out also and ask a question. How do we go from HOT DRINKS to this means Coffee or Tea, but Not Hot Chocolate, soup broth, warm to hot milk? The WOW does not define Hot Drinks as Coffee or Tea, so how come we cannot drink cold coffeee or cold tea, if the Hot Drinks is not clearly defined as such?

I have heard mormons claims we cannot drink Coffee or tea because of Caffine, So I must ask, if this is the reason, then why is it ok for Mormons to Drink Hot Chocolate or soda that contains Caffine or even eat a chocolate Candy bar or use medicane that contains Caffine? If it is an issue of Caffine, how come we then cannot drink Caffine free Tea? I know a few LDS who Claim Hot Chocolate was not around in JS day, that was why it was not included. But According to History of Hot Chocolate it has been around since the 1500's and was even around in the 1800's. Odds are pretty Good it was around in JS day. History of Hot Chocolate

Her are some ,more problems I have with the Word of Wisdom.

The Prophet Spencer Kimball Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. he gives a list of 6 things called (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). it says When you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,
1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.

Notice it says "Obedience to the Word of Wisdom." Yet Many LDS members do not follow this. Also we read in Gospel Principles pg 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. we are not repentant if we don't sustain the authorities of the church and don't love the lord and our fellow man. Yet again many LDS do not meet this requirement.

Here is an intersting little problem I find. We read in the Teachings of the PJS.

it is shown that, on May 28, 1837, it was"resolved unanimously, that we will not fellowship any ordained member who will not, or does not, observe the Word of Wisdom according to its literal reading." According to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, "In the mid-1830s, many Church members felt that abstinence from alcohol, tobacco, tea, and coffee was a criterion for fellowship. The one possible exception to this otherwise strict interpretation was wine, which some early Church leaders may not have considered 'strong drink.' This early emphasis on abstinence or near abstinence failed to gain Church-wide or official acceptance, although Joseph Smith said no member 'is worthy to hold an office' who has been taught the Word of Wisdom and fails 'to comply with and obey it' (TPJS, p.117, fn.).


LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith said that a member could not hold a church office unless he abided by the Word of Wisdom. Smith writes this in Essentials in Church History: "One question considered was as follows: 'Whether disobedience to the word of wisdom was a transgression sufficient to deprive an official member from holding office in the Church, after having it sufficiently taught him?'' After a free and full discussion Joseph Smith, who presided, gave his decision as follows: 'No official member in this Church is worthy to hold an office after having the word of wisdom properly taught him; and he, the official member, neglecting to comply with or obey it.' This decision was confirmed by unanimous vote." pg 169

So why is it the LDS chuch Teaches no man can hold a postion of Athourity if he drinks, yet BY stated he made a still house to make whisky and sell it for money?



Added to the Fact that BY made and sold whisky, JS was the mayor and as a result was allowed to sell or give spirits of any quantity according to History of the Church Vol 6, And it appers he did just that. So your two Church Prophets sell, make and Drink Yet the rest of LDS will be denied heaven for drinking.


We Read this story in Alma 55:8-19

8 And when it was evening Laman went to the guards who were over the Nephites, and behold, they saw him coming and they hailed him; but he saith unto them: Fear not; behold, I am a Lamanite. Behold, we have escaped from the Nephites, and they sleep; and behold we have taken of their wine and brought with us.
9 Now when the Lamanites heard these words they received him with joy; and they said unto him: Give us of your wine, that we may drink; we are glad that ye have thus taken wine with you for we are weary.
10 But Laman said unto them: Let us keep of our wine till we go against the Nephites to battle. But this saying only made them more desirous to drink of the wine;
11 For, said they: We are weary, therefore let us take of the wine, and by and by we shall receive wine for our rations, which will strengthen us to go against the Nephites.
12 And Laman said unto them: You may do according to your desires.
13 And it came to pass that they did take of the wine freely; and it was pleasant to their taste, therefore they took of it more freely; and it was strong, having been prepared in its astrength.
14 And it came to pass they did drink and were merry, and by and by they were all adrunken.
15 And now when Laman and his men saw that they were all drunken, and were in a adeep sleep, they returned to Moroni and told him all the things that had happened.
16 And now this was according to the design of Moroni. And Moroni had prepared his men with weapons of war; and he went to the city Gid, while the Lamanites were in a deep sleep and drunken, and cast in aweapons of war unto the prisoners, insomuch that they were all armed;
17 Yea, even to their women, and all those of their children, as many as were able to use a weapon of war, when Moroni had armed all those prisoners; and all those things were done in a profound silence.
18 But had they awakened the Lamanites, behold they were drunken and the Nephites could have slain them.
19 But behold, this was not the desire of Moroni; he did not adelight in murder or bloodshed, but he delighted in the saving of his people from destruction; and for this cause he might not bring upon him injustice, he would not fall upon the Lamanites and destroy them in their drunkenness.

My point of this story is this, They used Wine, So Again, why would God allow wine for many years then all of a sudden change it? We even read Noah after the Flood made wine, Granted getting Drunk was a problem, But God never rebuked Noah for drinking.

Lastly, Again on the Issue of Tea and No Salvation,

LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote,

"SALVATION AND A CUP OF TEA. You cannot neglect little things. 'Oh, a cup of tea is such a little thing. It is so little; surely it doesn't amount to much; surely the Lord will forgive me if I drink a cup of tea.' …if you drink coffee or tea, or take tobacco, are you letting a cup of tea or a little tobacco stand inn the road and bar you from the celestial kingdom of God, where you might otherwise have received a fulness of glory?" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:16)

So According to J.F.S Are BY and Mormon Settlers missing out on salvation?
Read this.

Utah County
Thursday, April 6, 2006
Nice cup of 'Mormon tea' eased settlers' ailments
By Rodger L. Hardy
Deseret Morning News
PAYSON — There's plenty of information about the kind of tea early Utah settlers drank.
The tea may have passed through some of the tea sets at the Peteetneet Academy. The most common, "Mormon tea," came from "a branched broomlike shrub growing up to four feet tall, with slender, jointed stems. The leaves are reduced to scales and grow in opposite pairs or whorls of three and are fused for half their length. Male and female flowers are borne on separate plants in conelike structures. They are followed by small brown to black seeds."
Other common names included: "Brigham tea," "cowboy tea," "squaw tea" and "canyon tea."
The plant is in the Gnetaceae Genus Ephedra family. While it is a source of ephedra, it doesn't violate the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' Word of Wisdom. When the whole plant was used, no negative side effects were reported. In recent years, however, extracted ephedra has led to serious health problems.
Ephedra from the plant, which is found in the southwestern United States, isn't as potent as that from China and India. American Indians drank it to help stop bleeding.
The early settlers placed a handful of the stems in boiling water for each cup. After they removed the concoction from heat they would let it steep. Sometimes they sweetened it with sugar or jam.
Other settlers brewed a strong tea from the plant to treat syphilis and other venereal diseases and as a tonic.
Seeds from the plant were ground as bitter meal or used to flavor bread dough.
Known effects include:
• a stimulus to the central nervous system
• increased blood pressure
• increased heart rate
• increased urine to dispose of excess body fluid
• elevated mood
• decreased appetite
• lessened fatigue

It appers More LDS do not Follow the WoW and Jesus never laid this heavy burden upon any man. Rick B