The Church of Jesus Christ met a violent death, sickened and died, fell into complete apostasy and was destroyed. This supposedly happened shortly after the death of the original twelve apostles. This is a very important point for Mormonism. In order for their claim of being the restoration of Christ’s Church to be valid, there needed to be a falling away of the original one. Did the first century Church really fall into complete apostasy? What did Jesus have to say about the subject?
Matthew 16:18- And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the Gates of Hades shall not overpower it.
The first thing that needs to be realized about the above LDS quote, is that wicked men were allowed to put Jesus to death. Jesus was not overcome or triumphed over. He willingly laid down his life. In contrast to His willingness to die, He said that His church would not be prevailed over. It is a terrible jump in logic to think that because Jesus laid down His life, that He would allow His church to be overpowered also. Especially in the light of the fact that He specifically says that the Church will not be overpowered.
This is a clear promise made by Christ Himself. His church, once established, will not meet a violent death, sicken and die, fall into complete apostasy or be destroyed. We have one of two choices. Either Jesus was wrong, or the Mormon church is wrong. Jesus also stated, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall not pass away.” (Matthew 24:35) If Jesus is wrong, then He can not be trusted and must be viewed as either incompetent or as a liar. If the Mormon church is wrong, then there was no need for a restoration and their claims to be the only true church are false.
Another verse, which refutes the idea of a total apostasy, is Jude 3. “Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.” Notice that this verse says that the faith was delivered, “once for all.” If it was delivered “once for all,” then there is no need to deliver it again. Obviously Jude, inspired by the Holy Spirit, did not believe in a coming total apostasy.
I would also like to appeal to the Book of Mormon, for the sake of our Mormon readers. The book of 4th Nephi describes a time when the “true faith” continued to thrive. An official LDS church manual states, “As the original twelve Nephite disciples chosen by the Savior passed away, new disciples were chosen to take their place. This practice evidently continued as long as the Nephites were righteous enough to have a church organization amongst them. The three Nephite disciples who were promised by the Savior that they should live on the earth until his second coming apparently continued to work with the people for several hundred years.” (Book Of Mormon Student Manual, Religion 121-122, 1979 p.450)
We have an unavoidable contradiction. In one official LDS church booklet, the church claims that the apostasy occurred “shortly after the death of the Lord’s original twelve apostles,” while another official publication says that the work continued for “several hundred years.” In the light of what the Bible has clearly stated regarding the endurance of Christ’s church, it is obvious that both LDS quotes are wrong.
I am going to give extra verse so people cannot say I am quoting out of context. Mormons like to use 1st Timothy 4:1 to claim a total Apostasy happened.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
No place in this verse do I read that their WAS a total Apostasy of the Church. It says SOME SHALL DEPART FROM THE FAITH Notice it does not say ALL SHALL DEPART FROM THE FAITH
Again I give more info for context.
Mat 28:15 So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.
Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
Notice verse 20, How could Jesus be with us till the end of the world, if we ALL fell into apostasy?
I quote
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Eph 3:21 Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Can I ask, how could Jesus be glorified by the Church throughout the Ages if the Church fell into a total Apostasy?
Ok, now on my blog, under the topic of, the LDS side of it A mormon going by Sheepdog said
SD: Rick! It’s not that I don’t trust the verses, I just don’t trust you to define them for me!
Rick, The WICKED have never heard His voice or seen His face!!!
Read the next sentence, “And ye have not his word abiding in you.”
He’s not saying that NOBODY has seen Him, He’s saying the wicked have not. Neither have they heard His voice! Why? Because they believe folks like you who teach them NOT to pray. You teach them to trust you to tell them what scripture means and what God meant when he spoke to others.
Ok, I am not saying every LDS member holds the same view as Sheepdog, but she seems to believe The wicked cannot hear the voice of the Lord. If this is true and we all fell into Apostasy, how could God speak to us, in order to be set straight? If even one person did not fall into Apostasy, then their could not be a Total Apostasy could their? So either we have an LDS member learning stuff from her Church that is in correct, or she is giving her own views, but yet she did tell me, the Scriptures are not open to Private interpretation.
Now I will quote the entire chapter of 3 Nephi 28.
3 Nephi
1 And it came to pass when Jesus had said these words, he spake unto his disciples, one by one, saying unto them: What is it that ye desire of me, after that I am gone to the Father?
2 And they all spake, save it were three, saying: We desire that after we have lived unto the age of man, that our ministry, wherein thou hast called us, may have an end, that we may speedily come unto thee in thy kingdom.
3 And he said unto them: Blessed are ye because ye desired this thing of me; therefore, after that ye are seventy and two years old ye shall come unto me in my kingdom; and with me ye shall find crest.
4 And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father?
5 And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.
6 And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.
7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.
8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.
9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.
10 And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are bone;
11 And the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and the Father giveth the Holy Ghost unto the children of men, because of me.
12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words, he touched every one of them with his finger save it were the three who were to tarry, and then he departed.
13 And behold, the heavens were opened, and they were caught up into heaven, and saw and heard unspeakable things.
14 And it was forbidden them that they should utter; neither was it given unto them power that they could utter the things which they saw and heard;
15 And whether they were in the body or out of the body, they could not tell; for it did seem unto them like a transfiguration of them, that they were changed from this body of flesh into an immortal state, that they could behold the things of God.
16 But it came to pass that they did again minister upon the face of the earth; nevertheless they did not minister of the things which they had heard and seen, because of the commandment which was given them in heaven.
17 And now, whether they were mortal or immortal, from the day of their transfiguration, I know not;
18 But this much I know, according to the record which hath been given—they did go forth upon the face of the land, and did minister unto all the people, uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost.
19 And they were cast into prison by them who did not belong to the church. And the prisons could not hold them, for they were rent in twain.
20 And they were cast down into the earth; but they did smite the earth with the word of God, insomuch that by his power they were delivered out of the depths of the earth; and therefore they could not dig pits sufficient to hold them.
21 And thrice they were cast into a furnace and received no harm.
22 And twice were they cast into a den of wild beasts; and behold they did play with the beasts as a child with a suckling lamb, and received no harm.
23 And it came to pass that thus they did go forth among all the people of Nephi, and did preach the gospel of Christ unto all people upon the face of the land; and they were converted unto the Lord, and were united unto the church of Christ, and thus the people of that generation were blessed, according to the word of Jesus.
24 And now I, Mormon, make an end of speaking concerning these things for a time.
25 Behold, I was about to write the names of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.
26 But behold, I have seen them, and they have ministered unto me.
27 And behold they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not.
28 They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not.
29 And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them.
30 And they are as the angels of God, and if they shall pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus they can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good.
31 Therefore, great and marvelous works shall be wrought by them, before the great and coming day when all people must surely stand before the judgment-seat of Christ;
32 Yea even among the Gentiles shall there be a great and marvelous work wrought by them, before that judgment day.
33 And if ye had all the scriptures which give an account of all the marvelous works of Christ, ye would, according to the words of Christ, know that these things must surely come.
According to this, some Disciples shall not taste death till the Lord returns. So if this is true, how could the Church fall into a Total Apostasy?
Now I will Quote all of D and C chapter 7.
THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 7
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Oliver Cowdery, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, April 1829, when they inquired through the Urim and Thummim as to whether John, the beloved disciple, tarried in the flesh or had died. The revelation is a translated version of the record made on parchment by John and hidden up by himself. HC 1: 35—36.
1—3, John the Beloved shall live until the Lord comes; 4—8, Peter, James, and John hold gospel keys.
1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.
2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.
3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.
4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom.
5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.
6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.
7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.
8 Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both joy in that which ye have desired.
Again, if this is true, How could their be a total Apostasy of the Church if John never died? Rick b
11 comments:
rick: The Church of Jesus Christ met a violent death, sickened and died, fell into complete apostasy and was destroyed. This supposedly happened shortly after the death of the original twelve apostles. This is a very important point for Mormonism.
SD: This is also a very important point of Revelations that John recorded. The violent death, the withdrawal of God from prophets, the reign of the devil, how he was able to fool and force people, then the restoration. Everything is there in that vision.
rick: In order for their claim of being the restoration of Christ’s Church to be valid, there needed to be a falling away of the original one. Did the first century Church really fall into complete apostasy? What did Jesus have to say about the subject?
Matthew 16:18- And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the Gates of Hades shall not overpower it.
SD: First off you need to know what a true Living Church of God is. It’s what it has been since Adam.
The foundation is living apostles, a prophet with preisthood authority, set in his place by God. They communicate with God. It is God’s government on the earth.
He called 12 and gave them the preisthood keys to the kingdom (Matt16:19)
They are ordained (Mk3:14) They didn’t choose their position, they were chosen by God (Jn15:16)When Judas fell, another was chosen so that there would remain 12 (Acts1:22-26). Where does this sucsession end? It wasn’t supposed to end. Even you admit that God no longer speaks to prophets or has a church on the earth that needs them. When did this loss of communication happen?
You say Matt 16:18 supports your interpretation of things.
What about Revelations 13:esp(7-8)
I could explain this whole chapter to a believer. It all fortells the fall of the Church of Christ after his death.
Key in debunking your interpretation of Matt 16:18 is verse 7-8 of Rev13.
The devil was allowed to “over come the saints”. All that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the devil’s church). The saints had no choice because they were forced by violence.
The correct interpretation of Matt. 16:18 is that the gates of hell “shall not prevail” in the end. Now, in the year 2006, the gates of hell don’t prevail.
Isa., Jer., and other OT prophets wrote about it too. There is much more in Rev. than what I quoted here, but if you do not believe this much, why should I say more?
rick, it sure looks to me like you are trying to smother your own blog with volume so that there is so much fluff out there that no one will read earlier answers to your false accusations. Then you'll accuse all 2 or 3 of us who come here and say we can't/don't answer questions.
I've given anyone with a sound mind for truth enough balance that they can take it all and ask for truth from the Spirit about the words. I am a very busy person with a family and a life and I may come back later.
But for now, farewell.
Two or three brief comments: Your interpretations come from changing the language of the scripture to fit your perceptions. You ask, "How could Jesus be with us till the end of the world, if we ALL fell into apostasy?" Jesus didn't promise "us," He promised "his disciples." You're merely assuming that the terms are synonymous.
You cite Matthew 16:18, but you're looking at it backwards. Gates aren't offensive weapons. They're used to repel invaders. Jesus wasn't claiming that hell wouldn't be able to overcome the church but that the Church would have power over the realm of the dead. That's what the "gates of hell" refer to. It was the church that would assail the "gates of hades" and those gates would not prevail (withstand) against the church.)
Certainly the apostasy would not be total if those who were translated remained with the people, but you don't see either John or any of the three Nephites performing ordinances do you? The BoM points out that the time came when God took those minister from among the wicked people. The same thing occurred (only earlier) in the eastern hemisphere. The apostasy was so far underway that Paul could write that everyone in Asia had turned away from him. (2 Ti. 1:15) Jesus, Paul, Peter and John all warned repeatedly about the coming apostasy. That's why John said it was the "last time" when he wrote. It wasn't the end of the world, but it was the end of the Church.
To whom it may be of interest,
Latter-day Saints believe that apostasy occurs whenever an individual or community rejects the revelations and ordinances of God, changes the gospel of Jesus Christ, or rebels against the commandments of God, thereby losing the blessings of the Holy Ghost and of divine authority. The rise of revelatory communities, apostasies, and restorations has happened cyclically throughout the history of mankind, in a series of dispensations from the time of Adam and Enoch (Moses 7) to the present. Latter-day Saints see a historical "great apostasy" and subsequent loss of authority beginning in the New Testament era and spreading in the centuries immediately following that era. Though Latter-day Saints have not emphasized the great apostasy as much as they have the concept that the Church is a revelatory restoration, the need of a restoration implies that something important was lost after the departure of the primitive Christian church.
The English word "apostasy" derives from the Greek apostasía or apóstasis ("defection, revolt"; used in a political sense by Herodotus and Thucydides); it is mentioned in a religious context in the Septuagint and the New Testament (e.g., 2 Thes. 2:3 states that an apostasía must come before the second coming of Christ). It can mean the intransitive "to stand away from," or the active "to cause to stand away from." Thus an apostasy can be an active, collective rebellion or a "falling away."
Joseph Smith in his first vision (1820) was told by Christ that all existing churches had gone astray, both in their teachings and in their practice, although they had "a form of godliness" (JS—H 1:18–19). Thus it was necessary for a "restoration" of the gospel to take place.
In addition, in the Book of Mormon (1 Ne. 11–14; 2 Ne. 28; cf. Morm. 8), the prophet Nephi 1 had a vision of the early Christian church and its twelve apostles, against whom the "multitudes of the earth" and the house of Israel fought (1 Ne. 11:34–35). He foresaw a "great and abominable church" that persecuted true Christians and the poor, and whose members were motivated by such things as pride, clothing themselves in precious raiment, and indulging in sexual immorality. It altered the simplicity of the gospel insidiously, did away with covenants, excised important scriptures, and denied the existence of miracles. This apostasy can be linked, in the allegory of Zenos, with the scattering of Israel when all the trees in the Lord´s vineyard had become corrupt (Jacob 5:39–48), and it was paralleled by the calamitous apostasy of the Nephites in the New World (1 Ne. 12:15–19; 4 Ne. 1:24–46).
However, this "great church" was not any one specific church, according to Nephi; in his apocalyptic vision there are only two churches, and "whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church" (1 Ne. 14:10). It is typological, symbolic of many historical and social movements (2 Ne. 27:1); even nominal adherents to Christ´s church, if driven by pride, wealth, prestige, and their appurtenances, may find themselves members of that "great church" (cf. 1 Ne. 8:27–28).
All through their history, Latter-day Saints have written and theorized about historical events involved in the "great apostasy," a theme discussed in several Restorationist writings of the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries. In 1833, referring to Mark 16:17–18 and 1 Corinthians 12, Joseph Smith stated: "By the foregoing testimonies we may look at the Christian world and see [that] the apostasy there has been from the apostolic platform" (TPJS, p. 15). Oliver Cowdery wrote on the apostasy in the first issue of the messenger and advocate (1834). In 1840 Orson Pratt spoke of "a general and awful apostasy from the religion of the New Testament" (Listen to the Voice of Truth, 1.1). He particularly emphasized a lack of binding ordinances because of the absence of priesthood authority; baptism was a key example. In Pratt´s view all churches before the Restoration were wrong in some ways, doctrinally and ritually, even though they might be right in others. Benjamin Winchester, an early LDS pamphleteer, wrote an extensive treatise using New Testament sources to demonstrate that an apostasy had been prophesied (A History of Priesthood, Philadelphia, 1843, pp. 72–96). In the 1850s and 1860s many references were made to "the great apostasy" (O. Pratt, JD 12:247) and "the great falling away" (W. Woodruff, JD 8:262) in Latter-day Saint sermons.
This idea-breaking off from established religion because it seems out of tune with New Testament Christianity-has obvious Protestant overtones, but the LDS view differs from typical Protestant attitudes in its emphasis on the loss and restoration of exclusive, clear-cut priesthood authority, correct ordinances, and continuing revelation. In contrast, Protestants typically rely primarily on biblical reinterpretation.
In 1909 James E. Talmage wrote The Great Apostasy, in which he gathered New Testament passages that Latter-day Saints have cited to show that a great apostasy was predicted by Jesus Christ, Paul, and other apostles and prophets (esp. Matt. 24:4–13, 23-26; Acts 20:29–30; Gal. 1; 2 Thes. 2:7–8; 1 Tim. 4:1–3; 2 Tim. 3:1–6; 4:1–4; Jude 1:3–4; Rev. 13:4–9; 14:6–7; and in the Old Testament, Amos 8:11–12). Talmage also chronicled the persecution of early Christians that hastened the Apostasy and described the primitive Church as changing internally in several respects. He argued that the simple principles of the gospel were mixed with the pagan philosophical systems of the day (Trinitarianism, resulting in the Nicene Creed; false opposition of body and spirit, creating excessive asceticism); that rituals were changed and added to in unauthorized ways (simple early Christian rites were replaced by complex pagan-influenced ceremonies; baptism by immersion was lost; the baptism of infants was introduced [cf. Moro. 8]; communion was changed); and that church organization was altered (the apostles and prophets, the necessary foundation of the church of Christ, were martyred, leaving a void that could not be filled by bishops; thus the medieval church showed little similarity to the organization or practices of the New Testament church).
LDS teachings on the early Christian apostasy have received additional support in the twentieth century as some scholars have argued that the primitive Church began as a centralized Judaic organization, was faced with the challenge of a Hellenized/Oriental, ascetic Gnostic Christianity, and became like its enemy in order to compete. The very idea of a centralized Christianity has given way to a picture of diverse and fragmented early Christianity, where it is hard to determine what is orthodox and what is heretical, what is Gnostic and what is "mainstream." For instance, Peter Brown and William Phipps argue that Augustine´s influential doctrine of original sin, with its concomitant ritual, infant baptism, was derived from his Gnostic background and was, in reality, heretical, while Pelagius´ opposition to these ideas was orthodox. But Augustine´s doctrines prevailed, and continue to influence Western theology and culture. Another early Christian doctrine that did not survive in Western Christianity was deification, though it remained central to Eastern Christianity.
A complex religious and cultural milieu both nurtured and transformed early Christianity. Many factors must be taken into consideration in analyzing this transformation of Christianity. For example, some have put the blame exclusively on Greek philosophy and the influence of philosophy on Gnosticism for the rise of the great apostasy. But asceticism (i.e., hatred of the body, of sexuality, of the physical world) played a major role in the apostasy of the early church, and extreme asceticism is characteristically Oriental. Moreover, much of Greek philosophy has been found to be consistent with the gospel; Elder Orson F. Whitney referred to Plato and Socrates as "servants of the Lord," although in a "lesser sense" than the prophets (CR [April 1921]:33).
The concept of a historical apostasy from early Christianity can present a barrier between Latter-day Saints and others concerned with interfaith relationships. But Latter-day Saints do not view these events judgmentally; much of spiritual value happened during the Middle Ages and in other Christian churches. Brigham Young emphasized that good men before the restoration had "the spirit of revelation" and stated that John Wesley was as good a man "as ever walked on this earth" (JD 7:5; 6:170; 11:126). President Young held that all churches and religions have "more or less truth" (JD 7:283), and he admonished the Saints to seek and accept truths wherever they might be found. In conference talks, General Authorities, including President Spencer W. Kimball and President Thomas S. Monson, have quoted or praised such luminaries as Billy Graham and Mother Teresa.
--------
These comments are from “Latter-day Saints Frequently Asked Questions” website found at www.ldsfaq.byu.edu. This is a public website sponsored by BYU that provides answers to over 400 LDS related questions. It features concise answers provided in a few paragraphs supported with references and related questions linked one to another with an easy to use search function.
--------
In Christ,
Tad
www.ldsfaq.byu.edu
First thing I would like to say is this. I am putting out information for ALL people to read. I don't want people to think that if I don't reply to the LDS that means I agree with them. I really want more believers to reply to the LDS than just me. Also I will give one or two replys to people, but otherwise I am not going back and forth like I did with sheepdog in an endless debate. I will give my side and alow other to give their sides. Now here is my reply.
As to was their a total Apostasy, paul quotes from the OT, And I provided the Verse from the OT he quotes.
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
If God could perserve 7,000 people through out the OT why could he not do the same down through history to keep the Church from falling into a total Apostasy?
Here is the verse paul quote's
1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left [me] seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
I would like to say also No body has addressed the Issue of this verse and how it is God allowed His words to pass away?
“Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall not pass away.” (Matthew 24:35)
The issue of the verse in Jude about the faith being delieved ONCE has not been addressed yet, neither has 1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils Notice as I pointed out already, it says SOME SHALL DEPART, NOT ALL WILL DEPART. Then as this verse says and I pointed out before, Satan can come in the form of an angel of light to decive, Can anyone prove JS was not decived by satan. LDS Want to believe he really was not decived, I believe he was.
Let me end on this note. It is difficult to give credence to a total apostasy when you have four apostles roaming the earth. Though no specific promise of success is given to John, such a promise was allegedly given to the three Nephites. 3 Nephi 28:29 states most clearly that they "shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls." If this is the case, why was Joseph Smith supposedly told in his first vision that all the churches were wrong? Wouldn't those who converted under the tutelage of these men be considered a part of the true church? Since we have no evidence that John, or these three Nephites, ever worked in harmony with Joseph Smith to build his new church, are we to assume that their converts are a part of "the church of devil" as described in 1 Nephi 14:10 of the Book of Mormon?
If Mormons choose to go with the total apostasy theory, they must conclude that the efforts of John and the three Nephites were frustrated and yielded no fruit. To hold this view casts doubt on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and even Christ Himself. Rick b
To whom it may be of interest,
Critics of the LDS Churchs belief in an apostasy after the death and resurrection of Christ often cite Jude 1:3 as proof that no such apostasy took place. This passage speaks of course of the faith which was "once for all" delivered to the saints. Those critics believe that "once for all" as it is referenced in this passage means that there will never be a need to restore the gospel or that it will never be taken from the earth or “lost”.
Lets take a closer look.
The word "once" as used in Jude 1:3 should be more accurately translated as "before" or "previously". As proof of this, note that the same Greek word was used in verse 5 and was also translated in the KJV as "once." The context used in verse 5 makes it clear that to interpret the use in verse two as "one time" is not correct. The KJV translates the Greek as "ye once knew this" (i.e. He knew it in the past but may have forgotten it). The New International Version confirms this by translating this same Greek word (once--verse 5) as "already," meaning formerly.
Other scriptures confirm that many general apostasies have taken place, and that the gospel had been “formerly delivered” to ancient Israel following these apostasies.
Deuteronomy 9:7,25; 29:25; 30:15- 19
Judges 3:7
1 Kings 11:2; 14:22
2 Kings 17:7; 21:2
Psalms 106:36
Isaiah 2:8; 39; 24:5; 29:13-14; 59:2
Jerimiah 2:17; 7:11; 35:15
Ezekiel 2:3; 11:12; 22:26
Hosiah. 4:6, 17
Amos 8:11
Micah 3:11
Matthew 13:15; 15:9
Paul taught the Galatians that "God… preached before the gospel unto Abraham" (Galatians 3:8) and in Hebrews 4:2 he declared that, "unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them (Israel in the days of Moses.. 1 Corinthians 10:4, Hebrews 3:16-17) but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it" (Hebrews 4:2). If the gospel was preached to Abraham in 2000 BC, to the people of Israel during the Exodus in 1350 BC, and then to Israel of Christ's day, it was delivered more than one time. (See also Isaiah 40:9; 52:7; 61:1; Moses 5:58-59; 6:51-68; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 59-61; Seaich, Mormonism, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Nag Hammadi Texts, pp. 54-55).
What is very clear is this- that an apostasy was predicted by Jesus Christ and his apostles. Jesus taught that, "many shall come in my name, saying 'I am Christ', and shall deceive many" (Matthew 24:5). Many saints having learned of Christ's return were troubled. Paul seeking to calm their fears declared unto them, "Be not soon shaken in mind, or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, not by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by many means: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY FIRST." (2 Thessalonians 2:2-3). The disciples knew of the coming apostasy- they knew that the “formal organization” of the Church would crumble and that proper priesthood authority would be lost.
We should note that the Greek word apostasia was translated as "falling away" in the KJV. Thus Paul is saying that the early Christians should not be fooled by false Christ's since there would be an unmistakable apostasy before Christ's return. Consider also the following:
Matthew 24:4-5, 9-13, 24
John 16:2-3
Acts 20:29-30
1 Corinthians 1:10-13
Galatians 1:6-8
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
1 Timothy 4:1-3
2 Timothy 3:1-9, 12-13; 4:3-4
Titus 1:10-16
2 Peter 2:1-3; 3:3
1 John 2:18-19
Jude 3-4
Revelation 13:4-8.
Other Biblical verses such as Matthew 17:11; Acts 1:6-7; 3:19-21; Ephesians 1:10; and Revelation 14:6 confirm the LDS belief that a restoration of the gospel was prophesied to occur in these “latter days.”
Occasionally some are tempted to cite the Protestant reformation as the fulfillment of these prophecies, but it is clear that the promised restoration was to be accomplished not through man's effort but in spite of it (Daniel 2:44-45; Matthew 5:13; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 3:1-7; 4:3-4; Hebrews 6:4-8).
Such a renewal came at the time of the Savior's mortal ministry with the ushering in of that new dispensation. It should be noted that Jesus Christ made no attempt to “reform” the doctrines and institutions of His day. He simply restored the true gospel to the earth. It was taught not as “reformed” Judaism but rather as a new alternative to it. And so God continues to still work in this manner even today. As Jesus taught, new wine cannot be put in old bottles or both the wine and the bottles will be lost (Matthew 9:16-17). The multitudes of Protestant churches existing today are proof of the fact that a “reformation” cannot succeed in restoring absolute truth. God has always accomplished this end through new revelation to his divinely chosen prophets and not through self-appointed reformers.
-------
The bulk of this text was originally written by Michael W. Hickenbotham and has been modified and re-edited to better fit the context and flow of this thread.
-------
In Christ,
Tad
To whom it may be of interest,
The topic of the apostasy is a huge issue that is not easily dealt with in a brief manner. It seems reasonable to me that some non LDS Christians might have some difficulty, at least initially, grasping the genuine LDS view. Some critics have asked “how it is that God could let His words pass away” as referenced in Matthew 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall not pass away.” This is a good example of a serious misunderstanding of the LDS view of the apostasy.
My answer to this accusation is simple. God has not let His words pass away at all, nor will they- and as LDS we do not teach that they have. This is a distorted representation of our views. The apostasy as LDS see it has largely to do with the loss of “authority”- though there are others consequences that result from the loss of this authority. The formal organization of Christ's church is sometimes a difficult concept for Protestants to grasp.
Perhaps it would be helpful here to make very clear a few of the things that the LDS understanding of the apostasy does NOT mean.
First off the LDS understanding of the apostasy does NOT mean that other Christian believers spiritual experiences today and throughout the past 2000 years are somehow not genuine, real or valid. They most certainly are! The LDS understanding of the apostasy does NOT mean that shortly after the apostles and prophets passed from the scene in the New Testament that ALL light and knowledge vanished from the earth never to be present again until the restoration of the gospel in this dispensation. We are ALL Gods children and God does not leave any of His children without spiritual guidance or without access to the atoneing blood of Jesus Christ, The LDS understanding of the apostasy does NOT mean that God is somehow not pleased with other believers that happened to have lived in times and places without access to living prophets and apostles or without access to the formal structure of Christ's Church.
Throughout the past 2000 years many good Christian people, with honest hearts and true faith in Christ have led genuine surrendered lives for God and Jesus Christ- without question. And certainly God is very pleased with these individuals.
However, many of these same faithful people though have also known and felt that there was something missing- that there should be something more- that all of the pieces of the puzzle should somehow fit together a bit better than they do.
Perhaps the best way to get at what i am trying to convey here would be to use an example of such an individual. Many, many examples could be cited here but for now lets just consider the example of Roger Williams. Roger Williams is the man whom most credit as the founder of the Baptist tradition and was a godly and faithful man. Please consider the following:
--
Baptists’ opinions concerning the American origin of this denomination (Baptist) also conflict. The most popular view is that America’s first Baptist church was organized under the leadership or Roger Williams in Providence, Rhode Island, in 1639. Since these early Baptists refused to acknowledge the authority claimed by ministers of other faiths, they initiated baptisms among themselves, authorizing certain of their number to administer this ordinance. According to one account, Ezekiel Holliman, a layman, first baptized Roger Williams, who in turn baptized Holliman and about ten others.
Williams remained a Baptist for only a few months. Shortly after helping others organize a Baptist society, he left the movement. He doubted the validity of his own baptism because of an absence of the visible succession of authorized administers. In a letter to John Winthrop in 1649, Williams argued that he believed the practice of believer’s baptism by “dipping… comes nearer the first practice of our great Founder Christ Jesus, than any other practices of religion… and yet,” he continued, “I have not satisfaction neither in the authority by which it is done, nor in the manner.” On another occasion Williams acknowledged that he was dissatisfied with the prevailing creeds and with the various Christian institutions of his age. He insisted that an apostasy had occurred and that there was a need for a restoration of the purity of the “Primitive Church.” Failing to locate a church which, in his opinion, had received the necessary “special commission” to restore the New Testament Christianity, Williams became a “seeker” (one searching for the truth but not afflicted with any church) and died before his vision of a restoration had been realized.
-“Christian Churches of America- Origins and Beliefs”, Milton V. Backman, Jr., pp. 132-133
--
Now what are we to say of Roger Williams?- Are we to say that his enormous faith and commitment to Christ was in vain?- are we to say he was lost or that he was not a genuine follower of Christ? Of course not. I consider him to be a giant among the men of his time and i am sure God is very pleased with him. I am sure he will be greatly rewarded. Like many, many men and woman since the time of Christ Roger Williams was a sincere and dedicated follower of Christ.
But like many since the time of Christ he also knew that something was missing. He knew that his understanding was incomplete. He knew that no Church on the earth was Christ’s true Church and that none on the earth held the proper authority to administer His ordinances. He knew that there should be more and that all of the pieces of the puzzle somehow did not fit together and clearly and as seamlessly as something inside him said that they should. Many Christians feel like this today.
This is not an uncommon experience really. There are many examples that could be cited here.
By the way, Protestant historians, who focused on the failings of the Catholic tradition, provide us with an almost endless wealth of evidences of apostasy in early Christian history in order to justify the Protestant reformation. The Protestant reformation itself based its claim to break away from the Catholic Church on the grounds of an early apostasy.
It strikes many LDS as somewhat baffeling and incongruent when they are critisized for their beleive in an apostasy- by, of all people, a Protestant!! Protestantism itself is in fact based on the early declarations of an apostasy and a rejection of the formal organization of the Church. The only difference is that instead of rejecting the formal organization of the Church after the 1st century or so as LDS do Protestants reject it after the 14th century!
The searching state that Roger Williams found himself in is part of the natural fall out of the apostasy we have been talking about. Roger Williams had many “pieces of the mirror”- but he did not have the whole mirror. Roger Williams was doing the best he could with what he knew and his heart was pointed in the right direction.
Roger Williams is far from an isolated case. Many of the reformers themselves were driven by the same spirit- a search for Christ’s true church, a discontentment with the churches of the day, a strong testimony and a surrendered life for Christ- but a deep sense that something was missing, that something seemed incomplete. Many, while clear and steadfast in the good knowledge that they did have also knew that what they had was incomplete and that there should be something more. Many good and faithful Christians outside the membership of our own church feel like this today.
Our claim as LDS, that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Christ’s very Church established again on the earth today- the one and only Church on the whole earth with the power and authority directly from God and Jesus Christ himself to administer His ordinances and bestow His priesthood authority is a bold claim- i admit. But this reality should not imply that these other great Christian leaders and individuals are in any way diminished.
Consider this quote from LDS Orson F. Whitley in a Conference address to the Church.
-
"[God] is using not only his covenant people, but other peoples as well, to consummate a work, stupendous, magnificent, and altogether too arduous for this little handful of Saints (speaking of LDS) to accomplish by and of themselves. ...
"All down the ages men bearing the authority of the Holy Priesthood--patriarchs, prophets, apostles and others, have officiated in the name of the Lord, doing the things that he required of them; and outside the pale of their activities other good and great men, not bearing the Priesthood, but possessing profundity of thought, great wisdom, and a desire to uplift their fellows, have been sent by the Almighty into many nations, to give them, not the fullness of the Gospel, but that portion of truth that they were able to receive and wisely use." -(In Conference Report, Apr. 1921, pp. 32-33.)
-
Notice the date of this quote is from 1921.
In our humble efforts to build brotherhood and to teach the message of the restored gospel we say to the people of the world what LDS President George Albert Smith so lovingly suggested- and this is what i would say to you here.
-
"We have come not to take away from you the truth and virtue you possess. We have come not to find fault with you nor to criticize you. We have not come here to berate you because of things you have not done; but we have come here as your brethren ... and to say to you: 'Keep all the good that you have, and let us bring to you more good, in order that you may be happier and in order that you may be prepared to enter into the presence of our Heavenly Father.'" [Sharing the Gospel with Others, compiled by Preston Nibley (Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1948), 12-13.]
-
As children of our Heavenly Father we are all, both LDS Christians and non-LDS Christians, connected in deeper and more profound ways than we can hardly comprehend at this moment.
In Christ,
Tad
Hello Tad, Well in your posts you sure wrote a lot. Or should I say, copied a lot of stuff. Well I don't plan to get into another SheepDog debate where we end up with over 50 replys, otherwise no one reads them. I will address a few of your points here, other wise Others can reply or just search for themselves.
Ok, You and the LDS keep stating, there was an absence of priesthood authority Look up my topic on the Priesthood Athority. A brief over view is this, Not ONE place in the Bible or the BoM do we ever read or hear or see, any Prophets, Apostles or even Jesus Himself ever say, I give you, I bestow upon you, You MUST have, you Need, Priesthood Authority.
If we need Priesthood Authority why is it never once mentioned? As I stated even JS who did not have it, clearly stated, NO MAN CAN SEE GOD AND LIVE, WITHOUT PRIESTHOOD AUTHORITY. How was it JS saw God and lived but did not have P.A.?
Then Tad, you go on to say, Other scriptures confirm that many general apostasies have taken place, and that the gospel had been “formerly delivered” to ancient Israel following these apostasies.
I must point out, you could re-word general apostasies And say, nations like Isreal simply turned their backs on God and were punished, This is taught in the Bible and I believe it, But it is not and was not a TOTAL aposatasy. God did still send prophets to correct the backsliders, and at times the people found books of the law, read them and repented.
Not one Scripture you quoted ever states A TOTAL APOSATASY. Then we read in the Bible,
1Ki 19:14 And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, [even] I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left [me] seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
God set aside 7,000 who still followed him, Scripture teaches, God always has and does set aside a remmnet For Himself. If God did it back then why not again?
Then you still have not adressed the issue of the 3 disaples and John, who God told would never die, but live to save souls. Their is not mention of them losing P.A. No mention of them being taken from the earth, dying or anything, so did God lie?
Lastly you bring up both the Baptist Church and the Protestant reformers, Why? I have clearly Stated many times, I read the Bible Only, dont follow these men or their beliefes, and I go to a NON-Denominational church. If you have Issues with they so-called Denominationas read my topic on that also.
Tad. I do want to point out that you said, The LDS understanding of the apostasy does NOT mean that shortly after the apostles and prophets passed from the scene in the New Testament that ALL light and knowledge vanished from the earth never to be present again until the restoration of the gospel in this dispensation. We are ALL Gods children and God does not leave any of His children without spiritual guidance or without access to the atoneing blood of Jesus Christ
this goes against what LDS member Sheepdog said, The Church of Jesus Christ met a violent death, sickened and died, fell into complete apostasy and was destroyed. This supposedly happened shortly after the death of the original twelve apostles. This is a very important point for Mormonism.
This is also a very important point of Revelations that John recorded. The violent death, the withdrawal of God from prophets, the reign of the devil, how he was able to fool and force people, then the restoration. Everything is there in that vision.
How can two LDS disagree, when you claim you were taught by your Church? Share your thoughts if you want, My piece has been said, But I will add more if you reply and dont adress the issue of you and SD both being LDS who dont agree on you scripture. Rick b
Rick’s comments ---------------- My piece has been said, But I will add more if you reply and dont adress the issue of you and SD both being LDS who dont agree on you scripture. ----------------
Rick, i am going to choose to let you add more.
I confess to being curious as to what it is that you would have to say in this regard- especially if you are really attempting to grapple with the issues at hand and not just trying to pit one person against another.
If you do add more it will most likely provide me with richer material from which to better address your concerns.
In Christ,
-Tad
Tad you quoted me saying, My piece has been said, But I will add more if you reply and dont adress the issue of you and SD both being LDS who dont agree on you scripture. ----------------
Rick, i am going to choose to let you add more.
I confess to being curious as to what it is that you would have to say in this regard- especially if you are really attempting to grapple with the issues at hand and not just trying to pit one person against another.
First off, what I ment by adding more was, If YOU reply but avoid the issues I stated you did not answer, then my reply would have simply been, Why did you still not answer the questions at hand. I am not grappling with these issues. But as you and Sheepdog don't agree, it appers you dont agree with your Church's prophets either, or the Apostles.
Read, There is to be absolute, total, complete apostasy after John's day and before the angelic ministrations commence. The falling away shall be complete, the apostasy universal. Gross darkness shall be everywhere. The gospel shall not be found in any nation, among any kindred; no tongue shall teach its truth… (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3: 529).
Though [the Three Nephites] lived and labored as men among their fellows, preaching, baptizing, and conferring the Holy Ghost upon all who gave heed to their words, the enemies to the truth were powerless to do them injury. (James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ, 739).
So if baptized people possessing the gift of the Holy Ghost equaled a church organization as stated by President Smith, And if the Three Nephites baptized and conferred the Holy Ghost on people during the apostasy ,as stated by Apostle Talmage, Then the church organization existed on the earth during the apostasy.
Your thoughts as I stated, Dont Agree with the LDS member (SD), And they dont agree with J.F.S or Bruce Mc, either. Add to that, Jude 24:
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
How could He, (God) Keep us from stumbling if we fell in Apostasy? We could not be found fautless either if that were the case. Rick b
Something I need to correct you on, Tad. In Jude verse 3, Jude is talking about Christ's death for everyone, hence "once for all."
If you look at the Scripture entirely to put it into context, you will find that that's what Jude is talking about. To further illustrate this point read verse 2, and read verse 4 as well. Otherwise, anybody could take the Scriptures out of context by taking a phrase, like "once for all," and breaking that down.
Nice idea with this site its better than most of the rubbish I come across.
»
Post a Comment