First off, I understand that their are a lot of topics to read over, If you are going to start posting here on a regular basis, Might I suggest reading over every topic, not the reply's so much.
People seem to think I forgot to say something or I missed something, when in fact it was covered, you simply did not read over everything. If you don't like my blog, you don't need to stay here and read stuff.
To set the record straight, I don't hate the LDS people, I do believe you are in a false religion that will take you to hell after you die. I believe my belief is correct, then while it is hard for you to read me saying I see problems with your beliefs, It is in fact a very loving thing for me to do, expose error. Because if I am correct and your wrong, not only will you go to hell, but you also will bring people with you by the converts you made.
But if your correct and my beliefs is wrong, then we both most likely will meet in the second heaven someday.
Now I want to quote Sheepdog here,
I am just trying to keep rick honest. He says a lot of things about my faith that are way off. He misrepresents scripture because he takes it out of context so that he can apply his own meanings.
By saying, I am trying to keep rick honest, implies I have been both dishonest and lying. If this is the case, please provide exactly where and how this happened, Other wise, if it is more a matter of we simply disagree, please state that you disagree with something I said. Otherwise you are the one lying and being dishonest.
I feel I have been more than fair in my approach here, by posting more than enough for context plus adding scanned copies of things said by the LDS church. You said, I say a lot of things about your faith that are way off, Again please explain how, unless again we simply disagree, but disagreeing is far different than flat out lying.
I also was told I am taking thing out of context, please give us the "full" context then that I seem to forget. Now I have pointed out before, the Prophet J.F.S. clearly stated IF JS is a fraud he must be exposed. Why is it, I follow your prophet in that and LDS get mad? But yet you guys tell me to listen to your prophet. when I do, you don't like it.
Sd, You said
It always amazes me when I hear someone deny the power of God to answer prayer. Do you want me to list where it DOES tell people to pray and rely on the Spirit of God to confirm truth?
Sheep dog, My answer would be yes, please provide this list, You expect info from me, so I will expect it from you.
Then SD, You said
“Pray, lest ye enter into temptation”
Are you not encouraging people to avoid “the temptation” to join with Mormonism? But you don’t want to allow God to tell them who we are, you want that position. You are afraid God will not give the answer you want Him to.
You know as well as I do, this statement of your is very deceitful, You should be ashamed of your self. You do what you accuse the Anti's of Doing. Here is why I say that. Here is a list of the differences between what we as Christians believe verses what LDS believe.
LDS Terminology Differences
Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints commonly use words and phrases also employed by Evangelical Christians. While the terminology may sound the same, the intended meanings are often quite different. Misunderstandings arise when words are not clearly understood, thus communication is severely hindered. In order that your discussions with a Latter-day Saint may be more productive, a short comparative list of terms is supplied below. While this list should help you better understand LDS vocabulary, it is always a good idea for all participants in a conversation to define their terms.
GODHEAD:
LDS--The unified "committee" of a Father god, his Son Jesus the Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Father god is a resurrected man with a physical body. Christ is a separate resurrected god with a physical body. The Holy Ghost is a separate god with only a spiritual body. These are three totally separate and distinct Gods.
BIBLE--A reference to the Trinity: One God eternally existent in three Persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In addition, the Bible teaches God is not a man (Numbers 23:19); There is only one God (Isaiah 43:10-11; 44:6; 45:21-22); The Father is Spirit and invisible (John 4:24; 1 Timothy 1:17).
JESUS CHRIST:
LDS--A created being, the first spirit child of Elohim and one of his wives, the spirit brother of Lucifer the devil.
BIBLE--The eternal God manifested in the flesh; the One that created all things (John 1:1-3, 14).
HOLY GHOST:
LDS--A separate God from the Father and the Son; different from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Ghost is a person whereas the Holy Spirit is an influence from Father, not personal.
BIBLE--The same Greek word is used for Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 3:16; 6:19). He is the third Person of the one triune God.
VIRGIN BIRTH:
LDS--God, as a resurrected physical man, became the literal father of Jesus in the flesh. Christ was conceived in the same physical manner in which all mortals are conceived. (LDS contend that Matthew 1:18 is in error.)
BIBLE-- The Holy Ghost, without the participation of a human (or physically embodied) father, conceived Jesus in the womb of Mary (Matthew 1:18).
SCRIPTURE:
LDS--The Bible (with reservation) plus additional revelation from God found in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. Words of latter-day Prophets are also recognized as scripture.
BIBLE--The Bible alone, which is infallible and without error, and the sole authority for all matters of Christian belief and practice (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:3).
GOSPEL:
LDS--The Mormon church system and doctrines.
BIBLE--The message of Christ's death and resurrection as atonement for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Colossians 1:22-23).
FALL:
LDS--Adam's transgression which brought mortality and physical death to humanity, but not a fallen nature. Adam was given two conflicting commandments and chose the correct one to obey.
BIBLE--The event in which Adam and Eve disobeyed the explicit command of God, bringing sin and death onto the human race. As a consequence of the Fall, humans are alienated from God and in need of a Savior. In addition, the Bible teaches God tempts no one (James 1:13-14); Man is sinful in his very nature (Romans 8:5-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14).
SIN:
LDS--Specific acts, not man's basic nature.
BIBLE--The fundamental unbelief, distrust and rejection of God as God. The Bible presents sin as both fallen humanity's state of separation and alienation from God and as an individual's purposeful disobedience to God's will. In addition, the Bible teaches we are in spiritual rebellion until conversion (Ephesians 2:3-5; Romans 5:21); We do not just commit sins, we are by nature sinful (Matthew 1:21).
REPENTANCE:
LDS--Repentance of individual acts, not of sinful nature. To repent, one must feel sincere sorrow for his sins, stop sinning and keep the commandments of God. Some serious sins also require confession to LDS priesthood authority. True repentance is evidenced by the person never committing the same sin again; if he does, it is evidence that he did not truly repent and so his former sin returns to him.
BIBLE--A deep sense that the worst thing about one's sin is that it has offended a holy God. Repentance involves turning from sin to Christ, with a sincere desire to live in obedience to His leading. It is an attitude of the heart. In addition, the Bible teaches one must repent of basic rebellion toward God (Jeremiah 17:9; Luke 5:32).
ATONEMENT--SALVATION BY GRACE:
LDS--Universal resurrection, also known as salvation by grace, brought about by Christ's suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and death on the Cross. Beyond resurrection, man must earn his own place in heaven.
BIBLE--Refers to God's act of dealing with the primary human problem of sin, which has broken the relationship between God and humankind. God accomplished the way of restoration through Christ's sacrificial death on the Cross. Salvation is not universal, but based on each individual's relationship with Jesus, being given as a free gift of grace to those who trust in Christ alone (Romans 1:16: Hebrews 9:28: Ephesians 2:8-9).
BORN AGAIN:
LDS---Baptism into the LDS church.
BIBLE--Refers to our spiritual rebirth through faith, having previously been dead in our sins (1 Peter 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:17).
REDEEMED:
LDS---Redemption from mortal death only, not sinful rebellion or spiritual death. See Atonement-Salvation By Grace.
BIBLE--Redemption through Christ from more than mortal death. He redeems us from spiritual death (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:1).
ETERNAL LIFE:
LDS--Exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom with the ability to eternally bear children in heaven. Requires an LDS temple marriage.
BIBLE--Dwelling forever in the presence of God, a free gift given to all who believe. No mention of parenthood or marriage (John 14:2; Matthew 22:30).
HEAVEN:
LDS--The eternal dwelling place of deceased humans, divided into three kingdoms: Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial with a place for almost everyone (misuse of 1 Corinthians 15:40-41).
BIBLE--The eternal dwelling place of the redeemed. The Bible does not mention various levels of heaven. Rather, there are only two post-mortal conditions: everlasting punishment or life eternal (Matthew 25:31-46).
HELL:
LDS--An eternal institution where deceased people pay for their mortal sins; inmates come and go as in jail, they do not spend eternity there. They stay until their debt to God has been paid in full.
BIBLE--A place of eternal conscious punishment for the wicked. There is no indication that people will ever be released from Hell (Revelation 21:8; Matthew 13:24-43; 47-50; Luke 16:26).
TRUE CHURCH:
LDS--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All other churches are corrupt to greater or lesser degrees.
BIBLE--The community of all true believers for all time. The Bible does not recognize an institution or denomination as God's church, but defines it as being comprised of people -- those who have been redeemed by Christ's blood (1 Corinthians 12:12-14; Matthew 16:18; 18:19-20).
PRE-EXISTENCE:
LDS--The premortal period of time between the birth of spirit children to God and their birth into mortal life. Everyone pre-existed before life on earth. All have existed eternally.
BIBLE--Refers to Christ as the only pre-existent One (John 8:58; Colossians 1:17). For humans there is no spiritual existence prior to mortality (1 Corinthians 15:46).
AUTHORITY/PRIESTHOOD:
LDS--The power and authority of God given to men to act in things pertaining to the LDS Church and salvation. Only LDS have authority to baptize, ordain, and so forth. In the LDS Church there is a two-part system of priesthood: Melchizedek and Aaronic.
BIBLE--Refers to the priesthood of believers which is the privilege and freedom of all believing Christians to stand before God in personal communion through Christ, directly receiving forgiveness without the need for human intermediaries. In addition, the Bible teaches Christ brought an end to the Aaronic priesthood and He is the ONLY High Priest after the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 5:10; 1 Peter 2:5).
Now the very deceptive part of this is, LDS missionary's or LDS in general don't up front tell you all of this until after you convert and spend time in the Church.
Then you put words in my mouth and group me into groups I don't belong to. Examples, I never said not to pray, And I did not say I don't believe in prayer, Show me where I said that. Then you claim I follow Constantine and the creeds. I don't follow him and The Church I attend we do not teach or talk about him, we read the Bible and go verse by verse and chapter by chapter.
Their might be people or Church's that follow him but not me or the Church I go to. Lets add to that, that you imply he destroyed the Bible, so your saying God is not strong enough to protect His Word? Psalms 138 says He (God) puts His Word above His name. Their were many written manuscripts Long before Constantine was alive, and they were hidden away. We have since found the Dead sea scrolls that prove the word was and has been preserved.
SD, Something else I want to adress you on, You said
If I feel it's worth sharing the evidence I have with you I will. I'll have to ask God if I ought to
Now you say, If I feel why is this ok for you to say that, you might not Like the answer from God? So if you feel, then you will ask him. Then, let me ask you, do you really think, God would say, NO, Dont share info with Rick that might help him better understand or even know the truth and be set free? Just something else to think about, I am not telling people what YOU believe, I am asking questions about your beliefes and posting what I see as problems, and you refuse to answer the questions I post. Rick b
13 comments:
Sheepdog, I said in my reply under the topic of (The LDS Side of it) Your Jesus wont allow people to enter the 3rd heaven unless they do certain things first, like Be married in the temple, pay tithes ect.
You replied with
This is a lie. I don’t think you mean to tell it. I believe it is your own ignorance of Mormon Doctrine. So I will correct you now and if you say it again, it is willfull lying on your part.
The things a person needs to enter the Celestial Kingdom (3rd heaven as you call it)
is: Baptism (by those in authority to do so, and Repentance (born again, a Spiritual rebirth, coming to Christ in heart, word, and deed.)
Both the outward ordinance and the inward heart are required.
In this, the highest Kingdom, there are levels and people can progress and learn more here or in the after life.
We do baptisms for the dead so that all may have the ordinance if they didn’t have the chance while alive.
Tithing, along with all other commandments are expected to be kept. It is proof of a changed heart.
One thing about our tithing is that we can be assured that it goes toward building the kingdom of God and not to lining the pockets of our prophet.
He doesn’t have a garage full of rolls royces nor does he wear extravagent jewelry or clothes. He’s just a humble sweet old man.
Well here is what is taught by YOUR CHURCH. I believe all this is a lot more than you added or implied.
We read in the Book teachings of the Prophet Joseph smith, pg 107
That it states Alvin, JS brother made it into exaltition with out ever even
having been baptised for the remission of sins.
I did cover this Vision of JS in a topic just for that.
But add to that, we read here in the book,
Achieving a Celestail Marriage.
The Prophet spencer kimbal pg 30 says he makes it very clear we must do
certain things to enter the temple to be saved. also he gives a list called
(TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW) which is 6 things. it says here When you are
interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,
1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.
Then we read in Gospel Principles pg 125 WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF
GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the
Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes
or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. we are not
repentant if we do not sustain the authorities of the church and do not love
the lord and our fellow man.
Lets add to that also pg 241 Eternal marriage is ESSENTIAL FOR EXALTATION.
Our exaltation dependeds on marriage then over on pg 242 it says "and in
order to obtain the highest, a man MUST ENTER INTO THIS ORDER OF THE
PRIESTHOOD [MEANING THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT OF MARRIAGE]; "and if
he does not, he cannot obtain it" D and C 131:1-3
Then Joseph F Smith says in the Book Doctrines of Salvation that not even
half the latter day saints will be saved.
My points and questions are as
follows. Why is it Alvin made it into the 3rd heaven without even being
baptised for remmision of sins, yet we must follow the 6 laws laid out as it
were to enter the temple, in order for a shot at the 3rd heaven. If we must
do all those things listed in order to make our repentance sure, But we die before we can, IE We believe Mormonism is true, but we believe once we are on our death bed. Then where is our Hope for salvation?
Also If Marriage is a Major Requirment and is a must do, then what about the
young unmarried Mormon? What happens if they Just converted and never made it into the temple or obeyed the 6 requirments laid out? Lets say
they get killed while on their missions trip, It has happended.
And why did JFS feel not even half the LDS will be
saved? There is much it seems we must do in order to be saved. Also I know
mormons will or might say, there is baptism for the dead. While LDS believe
that, their in no mention of doing proxy marraiges in order to obtain the
3rd heaven. And with that said. If it were as simple as doing a proxy
baptism and proxy marraige, why even bother being an atcive LDS member if we
can be saved by proxy everything? One last thing, D and C 131:6 says, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A MAN TO BE SAVED IN IGNORENCE. Rick b
SheepDog, One other Question, If you go or anyone goes to the FairLDS board, you might need to search the archives for the WoW topic. But many LDS over their openly admit they dont follow All those 6 requriments and either lie about it to enter the temple, or simply have things over looked to enter. So if they enter the temple knowing they are not "Doing" All they must, are they really "Fully repentant" And what will happen to them, will they be saved after death? They either are lying or did lie to the Lord to enter the temple, So much for, Mormons being honest and not dectiful like us Anti's.
LOVE THAT TOLERATES DECEPTION IS NOT LOVE AT ALL! I am Called by Jesus Christ to share the Real Jesus with the Mormon people. And to simply share Jesus with all who will talk
Saturday, July 01, 2006
over view of things said by sheepdog
Ok guys, this is not really a new topic on mormonism. I just want to give an over view of things I said or things that were said, then touch on some issues.
First off, I understand that their are a lot of topics to read over, If you are going to start posting here on a regular basis, Might I suggest reading over every topic, not the reply's so much.
People seem to think I forgot to say something or I missed something, when in fact it was covered, you simply did not read over everything. If you don't like my blog, you don't need to stay here and read stuff.
To set the record straight, I don't hate the LDS people, I do believe you are in a false religion that will take you to hell after you die. I believe my belief is correct, then while it is hard for you to read me saying I see problems with your beliefs, It is in fact a very loving thing for me to do, expose error. Because if I am correct and your wrong, not only will you go to hell, but you also will bring people with you by the converts you made.
But if your correct and my beliefs is wrong, then we both most likely will meet in the second heaven someday.
If you are wrong in your guess you are as loving as all other false accusers.
If you are right, any good person can find that out through the power of the Holy Ghost who testifies of truth.
I know you are wrong, I do not “believe” you are.
Anti Mormons will be in the same place as Anti Christs. Just like them, you know not what you do, even with scripture before you. Jesus asked that the Father might forgive them, and that day of forgiveness may come, But there will be some hell to pay for fighting against His anointed. Don’t think you are going to waltz into the 2nd kingdom, you have no idea of our doctrine.
Would you like to know what happens to those who activly fight against the Chruch of God? Not joining and not believing is one thing, actively fighting against is quite another.
First off when you die, you will be met by light and the love of Christ will be around you. You will stand at the bar of God to receive your first judgment.
You will be deemed an enemy of God and His prophets because you actively fought against them and caused many to reject the truth. You will claim that you were doing a good work and casting out devils by preaching against JSmith and the Mormons. He will call your work “iniquity” because He never knew you. He never spoke to you about Smith. [you have claimed that He literally spoke to you with His literal voice, just like He did with Paul, and called you to this work, we both know that this is not true, don’t we?]
God may show you verses in the Bible (that you claimed to follow) which warned you not to set yourself up as a judge. He may tell you that now is the time for that same judgment you judged with to be turned on you. You called JSmith a false prophet, but you are actually the false prophet pretending to be sent of God. You judged Mormonism to be the corrupted faith, but it was your own that was.
Remember it is our own words which will stand as a witness against us.
After the truth is then revealed and there is no escaping it, you will be separated from God and the love of Christ and you will be placed in Spirit Prison with the rest of the Anti Christs who hated and killed the prophets of their day. You will not want to be in His presence after you realize what you have done to the One you claimed to have loved. The Jews would not have done what they did to their Messiah, had they known. It’s a bitter, bitter cup Rick. This is just an area you ought not speak out on unless you have been blessed with an actual witness from God about. I’m talking a vision or an angel or something like that. It’s a dangerous place to make a bet with your soul.
There are many places where you could make a good difference in the world and it could never be counted as evil against you....Like fighting against pornography or something else that is obviously evil.
The angry Jews firmly believed that scripture justified their beliefs and their rejection of Christ. They firmly believed they were going to heaven and Christ was going to hell. They believed they were putting a blasphemer to death and that God would appreciate their act of “love” on His behalf.They were wrong, despite their belief in God, the Messiah, and the scriptures.
No doubt they had a lot of truth concerning God because of the scriptures, but that alone does not a true church make. No doubt there were really good God fearing people that belonged along side the persecutors. Christ sent prophets to them to correct their misinterpretations and false practices, they rejected the Living God and His chosen, anointed, authorized servants in favor of the dead ones. They decorate seplechures of dead prophets, fooling themselves that they would have believed them had they lived in their day. But, they would have hated them just the same.
Read D&C 45 (esp. verse 50) There are also many similar verses in the Bible.
rick: Now I want to quote Sheepdog here,
“I am just trying to keep rick honest. He says a lot of things about my faith that are way off. He misrepresents scripture because he takes it out of context so that he can apply his own meanings.”
rick: By saying, I am trying to keep rick honest, implies I have been both dishonest and lying. If this is the case, please provide exactly where and how this happened, Other wise, if it is more a matter of we simply disagree, please state that you disagree with something I said. Otherwise you are the one lying and being dishonest.
SD:Well, I’ll go ahead and re list the dishonesty.
1) God did not call you to preach against Mormonism. You set yourself in that possition. Your possition is the same as Paul before Christ visited him. Paul believed with all his heart that Jesus was a corruptor of religion. He believed this because he was a religious man and he felt that Jesus was a corruptor of true religion. He believed he was doing a favor for God by persecuting the saints.
Rick said:
“Rick: Yes I heard God Speak to me.”
SD: Okay rick, I understand you, you swear God spoke to you. Just like He did to Paul. Totally literal.
That’s a very very bold claim. I would hope that a person would never tell a lie about something as weighty as this. I know I wouldn’t.
I would like to hear you tell when it happened, what it felt like, sounded like and exactly the words He spoke to you about us Mormons.
I didn’t ever get a reply on this.
2) Rick said:
“my main point of this whole question was JS ran away by trying to jump out the window. JS is said to be a maryter and laid his life as a testominy.”
Truth is in the most exagerated stretch of the imagination, no one in their right mind could rightfully accuse JSmith of “running away” from his attackers.
You say we disagree, I say it’s enough of an exageration to be a lie.
You say you have been “fair” simply because you post enough context.
No. JSmith did not run away when he had the chance. He did not shoot the gun to escape when he had the chance. 2 steps towards a window, in which window there was no escape, is not running away. It’s a ludicris exageration of what really happened.
3) This misrepresentation you did apologize for. Yet there is no correction on your article.
Rick said:
“Notice Jesus showed His power, They all fell backwards. Yet despite His power He never ran away or abused his power.”
It is written that Jesus did run and hide from his enemies a few times.
4) This is a lie about what I would disagree about.
Rick said:
“you will disagree, but God AKA Jesus, stated he lays down His life no man can take it from him. It was not his time, he knew it was coming and when.”
The truth is, I do agree with this. I know that no one was able to take His life before He willingly gave it. I believe that His prophets, including JSmith, have work to do and a testimony of Him to bare and the wicked are not allowed to take their lives until He allows it. The prophet/apostle/servant doesn’t always know the exact minute.
JSmith knew that the time was near and he knew that by turning himself in, he would die.
continued:
5) Rick said:
“The problem here is this, The Bible does not teach any place to pray to see if these things are true, Neither does the BoM, they both teach to SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES.”
SD: We believe in searching the scriptures and while searching them, we pray for the Spirit of God to bless us with understanding of them.
The Spirit of God is what teaches us truth. The Spirit reveals the truth of scripture to us. The Spirit of God reveals the divinity of Jesus Christ to us. The Spirit of God reveals the reality of the truth of the Book of Mormon. The Spirit reveals to us who JSmith was to God. Through prayer, meditation, and scripture study, and keeping the commandments, we are worthy to have the Spirit of God reveal the truth of all things to us.
The Bible does indeed teach us to pray for truth, knowledge, and companionship of the Holy Ghost who is the revealer of truth. No scripture ever would have been written had it not been for the Spirit of God revealing truth to men. Do we follow the example of all those in scripture who found God?
Does God still reveal His will to men or not? I know for a fact that He does.
Here are your verses:
All of JN. 14. (those that believe will keep commandments, those who keep the commandments will be given the Comforter, Jesus asks His Father to send the Comforter to men to testify of Him. World will not see Him anymore, but His children will because He lives.)
JN. 14:21 (keep commandments, He will manifest Himself unto you)
JN. 14:26 (Comforter shall teach you all things)
JN. 15:26 (Spirit of Truth shall testify of Me)
JN. 16 (people hate you because the do not know the Father. Never seen or heard from Him for themselves. Comforter shall guide you into all truth. Holy Ghost glorifies Me and what He knows, He will show you.)
Heb. 10:15 (Holy Ghost is also a witness)
1Pet. 1:12 (preached w/ HG)
JN. 4:6, 5:6 (Spirit beareth witness)
1Cor. 2:11 (Spirit searcheth truth, things of God knoweth no man BUT by the Spirit of God)
1Cor 2:14
1Cor.12:3 (No man can say Jesus is the Christ, but by the HG)
Rom.8:27 (Spirit maketh intersession for the Saints)
LK. 11:13 (Father gives the HG to them that ask)
LK. 12:12 (HG shall teach you)
ACT:1:2 (HG gave commandment)
2Pet 1:21
Neh. 9:20 (Thou gavest thy Spirit to instruct them)
PSA. 79
Matt 5:42 (ask and it shall be given ((truth))
Matt 7:7
Matt 16
Matt 21:20 (ask in prayer ye shall be given)
Matt 24:31 (His angels gather His elect...((not false angels))
JAM 1:5-13 (If any lack wisdom, let him ask of God who giveth to all men liberally...)
JN. 10:4 (sheep follow Him and know His voice)
6) Okay now, you said neither does the Book of Mormon. This is a lie.
2Nephi 32:8
"For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.
But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy perfomance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul."
Enos 1
“my soul hungered...I cried unto Him in mighty prayer...for my own soul”
3 Nephi 8:47
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye must watch and pray always, lest ye be tempted by the devil, and ye are led away captive by him.”
Moroni 10:3-8
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how amerciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and bponder it in your chearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would aask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a csincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will fmanifest the gtruth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may aknow the truth of all things.
6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.
7 And ye may aknow that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, baccording to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.
8 And again, I exhort you, my brethren, that ye deny not the agifts of God, for they are many; and they come from the same God. And there are different ways that these gifts are administered; but it is the same God who worketh all in all; and they are given by the manifestations of the Spirit of God unto men, to profit them.
Alma 5: 46 (Alma has fasted and prayed many days to know these things.)
Moroni 8:7
“For immediately after I had learned these things of you I inquired of the Lord concerning the matter. And the word of the Lord came to me by the power of the Holy Ghost, saying:”
Alma 26: 22 (to know mysteries of God, men must pray without ceasing.)
Mormon 9 (all of it)
Moroni 7 (all of it)
D&C 4: 7 (D&C 6: 5; D&C 8: 1; D&C 11: 5; D&C 12: 5; D&C 14: 5; D&C 29: 6; D&C 42: 3, 61; D&C 49: 26; D&C 66: 9; D&C 75: 27; D&C 88: 63; D&C 101: 27; D&C 103: 35)
ask and ye shall receive.
D&C 8: 9 ask and receive knowledge.
Is this enough proof that truth comes from the Spirit of God literally? Through study, through prayer, and through meditation.
Will you admit it is a lie to say that prayer cannot be used to discern truth? To understand scripture? To be inspired by the Holy Spirit? To know good teachers from evil techers? To keep us from temptations that will lead us away from Christ?
Rick:I also was told I am taking thing out of context, please give us the "full" context then that I seem to forget.
SD: Anyone with a computer can search the context.
Rick quotes me:“SD: You take our words and put your meanings and interpretations on them. You hold us to a standard of perfection that even Jesus Christ doesn’t stand up to. You make us to follow verses you have interpreted to label us/ours as false prophets, yet if you apply it in the same way to the prophets and apostles in the Bible, they wouldn’t line up right either. If they can’t pass your testing, then how can we?
Now I have pointed out before, the Prophet J.F.S. clearly stated IF JS is a fraud he must be exposed. Why is it, I follow your prophet in that and LDS get mad?
SD: If he were a “fraud” let the HG who is the Spirit of Truth “expose” it. Not your interpretations of his writings or Bible verses you believe are talking about him. You are just a man with a false opinion. None of that makes me mad.
I only get mad when you lie Rick. Your exageration of the events at Carthage are lies and they “expose” only that you are the fraud.
You telling us that “God” actually called you to do anything about JSmith is also a lie.
If lies anger me, then this is a righteous anger.
rick quotes me: “It always amazes me when I hear someone deny the power of God to answer prayer. Do you want me to list where it DOES tell people to pray and rely on the Spirit of God to confirm truth?”
Sheep dog, My answer would be yes, please provide this list, You expect info from me, so I will expect it from you.
SD: First you say I accuse you of not praying or believing/trusting that God answers prayers (which I never did except to be specific about what kind of prayers you were denying) then now you are asking me to provide verses as if you do not believe it is there. So which is it rick? I listed only a tiny fraction of the verses that are there. Hell, the whole Bible is a book of men communicating and dealing with the God that they heard and were inspired by!
They got the “fuzzies: from Him as you call it. Sometimes they prayed and got the fuzzies, sometimes they meditated and got the “fuzzies”, sometimes they were not expecting it and they still got the “fuzzies”.
You call it “fuzzies” to imply that it is just a person’s own feelings, but those of us who have had undeniable interaction with the Spirit can testify that it was a Power beyond ourselves and it was not evil because it filled our whole souls with enlightement and the love of Christ and a desire to do His will. It cannot be said of us that we “know not the Father” because first, we believe in God and Christ, second we believe in keeping the commandments, and third, we have heard from the HG Himself and had personal experience with God and have received our own personal witness of who JSmith is to Him.
After having been taught by the Comforter which was promised, who cares what men judge us to be?
Rick quotes me:“Pray, lest ye enter into temptation”
Are you not encouraging people to avoid “the temptation” to join with Mormonism? But you don’t want to allow God to tell them who we are, you want that position. You are afraid God will not give the answer you want Him to.
Rick: You know as well as I do, this statement of your is very deceitful, You should be ashamed of your self.
I am not deceitful, I am not ashamed, nor will I apologize for telling the truth.
This statement torments you because of the truth in it. Here is a Mormon verse for you to consider: 1Nephi 16:1-5
“after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.
2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.
3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might walk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.
4 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did exhort my brethren, with all diligence, to keep the commandments of the Lord.
5 And it came to pass that they did humble themselves before the Lord; insomuch that I had joy and great hopes of them, that they would walk in the paths of righteousness.”
You are for prayer as long as a person doesn’t pray about Mormonism because way to many of them are getting false answers. So you instead turn them to scripture which YOU can manipulate to suit yourself and God can’t stop you. The Holy Ghost cannot be manipulated and Christ taught in the Bible that it was the Holy Ghost that would testify truth to us. We Mormons are not afraid to turn people over to the Spirit of Truth because we know He will justify the Book of Mormon and JSmith. Scripture also will when understood correctly, which also is possible through the Spirit.
Rick:
Then you put words in my mouth and group me into groups I don't belong to. Examples, I never said not to pray, And I did not say I don't believe in prayer, Show me where I said that.
SD: It’s so hard for me to keep up with your lies. What number are we on so far anyway?
You just told another. I made it quite clear that I don’t doubt that you pray. I addressed your false claim that states that neither the Bible nor the BofM say to pray concerning truth. I addressed your silly notion that God would send demons when we pray for truth. How is it you believe in prayer as long as we don’t ask the most important of all questions....Of all churches which claim to have You, Which church of Christ shall I follow Lord?
Then you claim I follow Constantine and the creeds. I don't follow him and The Church I attend we do not teach or talk about him, we read the Bible and go verse by verse and chapter by chapter.
Their might be people or Church's that follow him but not me or the Church I go to.
SD: How do you know when you don’t know what he did or taught or changed in the Christian faith? How did they come up with the doctrine of the trinity and the definition of the nature of God? They DEBATED. No revelation, No Holy Ghost. No prayer. Just debate (opinions).
Lets add to that, that you imply he destroyed the Bible,
Yes, he and his appointed did destroy. It is in the history books. He/they did not allow all the scripts of the apostles to be kept. They did not allow various sects to worship Christ according to their conscience.
so your saying God is not strong enough to protect His Word? Psalms 138 says He (God) puts His Word above His name.
SD: Revelations says that God would allow satan to overcome the saints. For a time. It was the time of desolation spoken of by Daniel. Desolation means no Living Water. No living water means no living prophets communicating with God and directing His Church. That’s not to say that individuals (many righteous individuals caught up in this) were not inspired of the HG, just no prophets or true church government.
Rick: “Their were many written manuscripts Long before Constantine was alive, and they were hidden away. We have since found the Dead sea scrolls that prove the word was and has been preserved.”
SD: Hidden away from his government, yes. Don’t forget the Gnostic scripts also. Many more were not hidden well enough and were destroyed.
Do you know who has/had control over those Dead Sea Scrolls as soon as they were discovered by chance??? Now that’s an interesting read.
Do you know that they tried to hide them away so they could look at them first before anyone else?
Who knows how much of them we actually have!
Rick: SD, Something else I want to adress you on, You said
quotes sd: “If I feel it's worth sharing the evidence I have with you I will. I'll have to ask God if I ought to”
Now you say, If I feel why is this ok for you to say that, you might not Like the answer from God?
SD: What rick? What? I think you faked yourself out on that twist of words. If I said I’ll ask God, how would that insinuate that I might not like the answer?
So if you feel, then you will ask him. Then, let me ask you, do you really think, God would say, NO, Dont share info with Rick that might help him better understand or even know the truth and be set free?
SD: Putting this statement of mine into CONTEXT helps. You had already stated that you knew that some anti Mormons lied, mis quoted, and took things out of context. I was just saying in responce that if you know it, what good would it do for me to prove it further? It’s a waste of time if you know it’s there, I know it’s there, and any reader could go and look for themselves and with inspiration of the Spirit, could see it for themselves as prevelant as it is.
I gave examples. Let people judge for themselves. I can stay right here and prove that you do it without running to find another doing it. You are all of the same spirit made out of the same mold so why don’t I just stay here?
You ask, Do I believe God would say no? Yes, because you and I both know, you have made up your mind for now. Jesus didn't answer or give a sign to those who said "If you give us proof, we will follow."
He will give proof to those who are meek.
rick: We read in the Book teachings of the Prophet Joseph smith, pg 107
That it states Alvin, JS brother made it into exaltition with out ever even
having been baptised for the remission of sins.
SD: Do you have proof that he was not baptized in the Temple after he died for a remission of his sins?
This is ALSO what my CHURCH teaches but you conveniently left that out.
So, there is no contradiction now is there?
You do NOT know Mormon terminology rick.
I didn't say "exalted".
I said the "Celestial Kingdom".
Not all in the Celestial Kingdom are exalted.
Look that doctrine up for yourself.
I told you that I would correct you and that if you continued on your rant, you'd do it knowing that you are lying.
I guess you are just ignorant and not lying.
I'm just trying to help you out before you make a fool of yourself. But it's hard when you are so quick to condemn and so slow to get your facts straight.
Rick, I promise you that I know what my church teaches and that you are not going to surprise me with anything you think you have dug up.
I know who gets into the Celestial Kingdom.
You do not know Mormon terminology al all rick.
I never said "exalted" and the things you say must be done to get into the Celestial Kingdom are things that must be done in order to become exalted.
Not every person in the Celestial Kingdom is exalted, in fact I would say the number is few.
It's hard to help you get it right rick when you are so quick to condemn.
I told you that I was going to teach you correct Mormon doctrine and that if you kept on with your rant, you'd be doing it knowing it's a lie.
But, I suppose that it may once again just be ignorance.
Rick, I went to your suggested debate site.
Don't like it.
I know one that is not very busy at all and it's easy to follow and if we ask others to start their own topic rather than to butt in on ours, they hopefully will.
They let you say whatever you like and they edit nothing. They only delete prophanity. They only block those who come and are filthy mouths.
See what you think.
http://www.voy.com/62752/
I'll repost our most recent discussion there and we can go from there.
SD, You said rick: We read in the Book teachings of the Prophet Joseph smith, pg 107
That it states Alvin, JS brother made it into exaltition with out ever even
having been baptised for the remission of sins.
SD: Do you have proof that he was not baptized in the Temple after he died for a remission of his sins?
This is ALSO what my CHURCH teaches but you conveniently left that out.
So, there is no contradiction now is there? Read my Entire Topic, I posted everything word for word, If people Dont own the Book And I need to I will scan the pages, I did not leave one single word out to re-word it or make it sound different. Even JS stated HE MARVALLED in other words he was surprised his brothewr made it in, Your either lying or mis read something I wrote, So no I did not conveniently leave anything out. Rick b
SD, When you quoted me saying I said, “The problem here is this, The Bible does not teach any place to pray to see if these things are true, Neither does the BoM, they both teach to SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES.”
I made myself very clear, But yet you only quoted one thing I said, knowing I clarifed my statement, How dectiful of you. Shelli posted something very close to what I said, what we both said was, We dont pray to God to know if something is true or not after he already told us, Example, God said do not murder, do not steal, do not Lie, So I dont go to God in prayer and ask him if I can do these things when he spoke to me/us about them already.
The issue of the 3rd heaven/ exaltation, sad part is, Bruce R Mc, stated Anything less than exaltation is damnantion J.F.S. stated and you agreed, less then half the LDS will be saved, not much good news or Hope in your religion.
Then SD, YOU said I said you have claimed that He literally spoke to you with His literal voice, just like He did with Paul, and called you to this work, No, to set the record straight, I said God spoke to me, I did not say how. Then I asked you how God spoke to you and how he speaks to Mormon Missionarys and tells you the BoM is really his word, and asked how he Speaks to MM's and tells them to go on a missions trip.
Your reply was along the lines of, The MM's dont come to share how they were called or how they heard God, only to share their message, Or something along that lines.
Now when you keep saying, I said God send demons, What I said was Demons can come and decive people, I never said GOD SENDS DEMONS. Have you never read
2Cr 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Cr 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. Satan can come as an angel of light to decive people, I bel;ieve Satan decived JS. rICK B
SD, I would like to know what exactly you did not like about the reachouttrust board?
Really amazing! Useful information. All the best.
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