29 And we have entered into their houses and taught them, and we have taught them in their streets; yea, and we have taught them upon their hills; and we have also entered into their temples and their synagogues and taught them; and we have been cast out, and mocked, and spit upon, and smote upon our cheeks; and we have been stoned, and taken and bound with strong cords, and cast into prison; and through the power and wisdom of God we have been delivered again.
30 And we have suffered all manner of afflictions, and all this, that perhaps we might be the means of saving some soul; and we supposed that our joy would be full if perhaps we could be the means of saving some.
31 Now behold, we can look forth and see the fruits of our labors; and are they few? I say unto you, Nay, they are many; yea, and we can witness of their sincerity, because of their love towards their brethren and also towards us.
Wednesday, July 05, 2006
Do the LDS want to be like this?
My question centers around this passage from Alma 26:29-31. Notice these Missionarys it speaks of were beaten, mocked, spit upon thrown in jail ect. Honestly I dont see LDS members today who are willing to make such a sacrafice for their faith. My question for the LDS is simply this. Are you willing to be like these mormons of old. Yes or No. If yes please explain or give an example of how. If not then please explain why not. Thank you, Rick B
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My great great grandfather lived when people treated Mormons this way. He lived in Nauvoo. He was disowned by his parents in his late teens because he knew the church was true and he wanted to follow. Thank goodness for him. He didn't even know me or know that I would be so indebted to him for the sacrifice he was willing to make for the truth.
The only thing that is different for us now, is that people are not as violent. So we don't have to go through that now. We are living in the last days when Christ said that the lion and the lamb would lie down together and the lions would not hurt the lambs. It didn't say there wouldn't be any lions, just that the violence would be gone. The lions have not killed a prophet since Joseph Smith. That's so cool!
Now they just drag his carcase around and try to discredit his words.
Eventhough there is little physical abuse, Mormons still stand out. We are expected to maintain a standard of behavior, even when everyone else does otherwise. Our teenagers are put through the ringer with pressure to have sex, fiddle with porn, drink and party, be lude and crude in their language and deny thier faith in Christ.
My kids probably hear the "F" word 25 times a day in school. My 14 year old son is the most popular kid in the school. All the girls want him bad. He's beautiful, manly, strong, self confident, and athletic. The girls, even this young, throw themselves at him and offer him their bodies. We talk to him every time he leaves the house. We tell him to remember who he is.
This is just the first of my 4 boys to go through this. The others are going to face the same trials. We constantly talk to them about being a good example to their friends. We constantly talk to them about the promises they have made to Christ when they were baptized to keep the commandments.
They have opportunity to teach their friends every day about Christ, if only through their behavior. My kids invite friends to church all the time.
Then when they serve a mission, they get to go through even more of these things Alma wrote about. They get to have doors slammed in their faces. They get to be hated without good cause. They are spit upon. They have police called on them. They get to be threatened physically, but rarely do these threatenings turn into actual assults. I know of some but they are rare. They are thrown out of Churches...in fact just 3 weeks ago they tracted into a guy here who was born in the church but moved and through the years had fallen away and was attending another church. He wasn't really interested in switching back, but he did say, "I'll go to your church if you come to mine." So the missionaries agreed. The guy went to church and was welcomed and treated exceptionally. Then the next week he brought his friends, the missionaries, to go to his church and had told them how great it was. Before they reached the door the pastor came running out and told them to get the hell off of his churches property. He could have told them that he wouldn't allow them to preach or pass anything out and that request would have been respected.
The man has been coming to church with the missionaries for 3 weeks now.
Mormon boys get to sacrifice 2 years of their own lives receiving nothing but spiritual blessings from God. They put off their education, their freedom to play, their cars and jobs, their girlfriends, and lots of other things.
It's a very selfless act for the Jesus that has been so good to them up to this point in their lives.
They run into people like you who just wait for them, prepared to argue and catch them in words. You think you have really shown them a thing or two, but their only babes. It's no wonder you can so easily take them in a debate.
These are the days of weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. It's talking and debating truthes. Not much fear of bloodshed. But the disputing of ideas is as hot as ever.
If you don't see LDS members willing to make such a sacrifice, perhaps you haven't looked very hard. While I served in Italy, I was never spat upon or arrested; but my sons were in Russia. One of my son's friends was murdered while a missionary in Russia and yesterday the news reported that two female LDS missionaries were raped and one stabbed in South Africa. I know many people who were attacked and others jailed while missionaries for the LDS Church. I knew that was a definite possibility when I left and so do most Mormons when the go.
I really do hate to see things happen like the women get raped. But in all honesty just because things happen to Mormons like that really does not mean the vast majority of Mormons really want to be like the MM's in the BoM.
This kinda stuff happens to people from all religions all the time, My point in this questions was, I dont see Mormons wanting to be like this. I said that because, Whenever I have MM's over, once I start to say, I disagree with the LDS church, They say, It's time to leave.
I once pointed out to two MM's, Have I spit on you, mocked you, beat you, cast you in Jail? They replied with, no you have not.
I asked them then, why is it one sided with you, Your clearly blind and have a blind faith if you wont examine both sides. All the MM's I ever meet all tell me, it is church policy not to talk with Anti's. I once asked MM's, If I converted but could not look into your religion, because Anti's might tell me something to change my mind, whats the point?
Like I said before, If your Church is a false Church, you will spend eterinty in hell apart from Jesus forever. I guess if you won't look into both sides, then you have no one to blame but yourself. Rick b
Rick,
Mormon Missionaries are to harvest the field of ripe fruit, not contend with the rotten fruit. You mistake focus of the mission with the faith of the individule.
Contention for the sake of contention is of the Devil. While we are to earnestly contend our faith it is clear to anyone that is speaking with you that you are unwilling to change your mind concerning the LDS church. So what good would it do to contend with you for months when there are others that are willing to come to Christ and his Church?
When one is called to serve they do face risks. While I did not serve a full time mission I have done splits with the full time missionaries. Sometimes in very bad neighborhoods, where yes my life has been threatened. I did it gladly and will do it again. I think once again you have categorized the membership and missionaries on your false premise based on faulty and biased information.
Bottom line, the missionaries met their obligation to deliver the message, the fact is you reject it based on your beliefs which is your right to do. No matter how wrong I believe you to be. Then it is up to people like myself and others that have posted here who are not on full time missions to "earnestly contend in public our faith".
As for who is going to spend an eternity in hell. Well, it is not your judgement to make. That stated, we as LDS clearly believe in Christ as our redeemer whicy by your Non Denominational creed is all I need to achieve heaven. While if you are not LDS you are taking the "bigger risk" since we follow closer to Biblical scripture concerning salvation and enduring to the end.
Talk about someone who is being "one sided". You say you read alot concerning the LDS church yet you seem not to find anything good about it. I find that very interesting from someone who claims to be fair and balanced in their study approach.
For more information on LDS beleifs please feel free to visit my blog Mormonism - Fact Over Fiction
Wer62
Rick B, apparently I don't quite follow you. I think most missionaries would love to have the same faith as that possessed by the sons of Mosiah; but I don't think Mormon missionaries want to be spat upon or spend time in prison any more than Paul wanted to be in bonds. But you don't seem to understand that missionaries aren't out there to argue with you or anybody else.
Their job is to preach the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. It's not that they won't examine both sides, it's that they have more important tasks at hand. There are plenty of Mormons who have examined both sides and know that its depth and breadth far exceeds what they understood when they were missionaries with the faith of a mustard seed.
I've been reading "orthodox" apologetic material for years and know that it barely stands up to logical scrutiny and doesn't stand up at all to biblical scrutiny. Perhaps you've been looking for love in all the wrong places. MM don't have to be particularly well-versed to teach the elements of faith in Jesus, repentance and baptism. My first missionary companion had been a Mormon for precisely one year when he arrived in the mission field. He was a valiant, powerful missionary who was willing to suffer indignity and go to jail. He probably wasn't equipped to defend much more than the basic Mormon (Christian) doctrines and wasn't expected to. Today, he's served many years as a bishop and is fully able to defend every facet of Mormonism because he's had the time to read the history and understand the more esoteric elements. Find someone like him rather than the MM who have more important tasks to accomplish.
Alma said: "I've been reading "orthodox" apologetic material for years and know that it barely stands up to logical scrutiny and doesn't stand up at all to biblical scrutiny."
I have read a number of responses on this blog written by LDS and have found that the logic used doesn't stand. I have seen more passionate defense of Joseph Smith by LDS members, than I have on the core tenets of the LDS faith.(That makes NO sense to me) I have seen many manipulations of the truth by a couple of the LDS members that have posted here (the whole Sheepdog tirade about Rick not believing in prayer, when there was no suggestion that Rick does not believe in prayer). Logic would suggest that if Joseph Smith was wanted in so many states for so many crimes and hundreds of people were willing to leave their homes and families to try to catch him many states away(at their own expense), that perhaps he might have been a criminal. I do give room that he wasn’t, but it seems strange that this tends to send LDS members into a rage more than someone questioning the core tenets of LDS beliefs.
By the way....I don’t question that there are Mormons that are willing to make a sacrifice for their faith. Just as there are many examples of Christians making sacrifices for their faith.
Alma, you said:
I've been reading "orthodox" apologetic material for years and know that it barely stands up to logical scrutiny and doesn't stand up at all to biblical scrutiny.
I need to ask you, what's your point? Not once did I ever say or even imply I read all these books and believe it. I agree with you, But I only read the bible and books by mormons. If these so-called christians pastors or teachers or average Joe's in general write books, and they disagree with what the Bible teaches, then they simply are wrong. When I share with the Mormons, if I am not pointing out what I see as problems with what you church said, or what I see as problems with LDS theology then I never say, Pastor so and so said, wrote or taught. I simply say, the Bible teaches or God said.
I really don't care much for man's ideas on these matters.
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