Contention? Is it of the devil?

LDS Members are always saying 3 Nephi 11:29, 'He that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil. First off, I would like to say, this is not taught anywhere in the Bible. So for those who believe that the BoM is another gospel and basically a work of the devil, then we believe the Devil would teach this.

He is going to want you to believe this because then people will avoid answering hard questions that simply question their faith. The Idea of Contention being of the devil, if this were true, then I see a lot of problems in the Bible. Jesus and the apostles plus prophets in the OT did and said things that easily could be viewed as Contention.

John the baptist said

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Jesus said

Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Notice here in these verses, the People were offended because of him.

Mat 13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this [man] all these things?

Mat 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

Granted Jesus is both Perfect and Speaking the truth, they were offended by the Truth, but still People who claim they are Offended or I am being Contentions means nothing, It in my mind is simply a way to avoid the truth, by claiming it is not true but of the devil.

Here is two more things Jesus said, that Could be taken as a spirit of Contention.

Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Mat 15:15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.

Mat 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

Jesus calls the leaders Blind, and says to His Disciples, Are ye also yet without understanding?
In today's words, Jesus would be saying, Are you also Stupid?

Something Else Jesus said to his Disciples,

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken

He called his Disciples, Fools and slow of heart.

Can you believe Jesus did this!

Jhn 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables

He whipped the people and overturned their stuff, if that is not mean and a form of Contention I don't know what is.

Now lets look at this verse,

Col 4:6 Let your speech [be] alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

Notice in this verse the word SALT. I have been in the restaurant business for around 20 years. We use salt to draw blood out of meat, and it draws impurities out of food, it helps slow the growth of yeast in bread, and in the Scripture the use of yeast always refers to Sin and false Doctrine. We use the salt, (Truth) to slow down or kill doctrinal error, and when salt is poured and your hand has a cut on it, it hurts.

We read in Scripture
Galatians 4:16 puts it, "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" I could say that, because I share the truth with you and you get mad, you feel it is Contention.

Paul says in
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Paul points out these two people as teaching false Doctrine and says it is a canker. Paul even goes so far as to name names. This could also be taken as Contention.

The Bible tells us in 2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. We are told to REBUKE, REPROVE, EXHORT. These things can all be taken as forms of Contention.

Now lets look at what the LDS prophets and Scripture teach.

Read

D and C 66:7 68:1,9 go into the church's public or private to discuss this stuff. D and C 6:9-11 says convince us of our error if we have any.

Why do I get accused of being contentious for doing what the scriptures teach. Now let me add this, would you agree it is good to listen to the mormon prophets? If so then I am. Read

pg 188 of doct of salvation vol 1 I quote. "CHURCH STANDS OR FALLS WITH JOSEPH SMITH. MORMONISM, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. their is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed: his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false".

Why if your president and prophet said to do this and I believe it, I am in the wrong?. Did your Prophet not read that verse about contention? Let me also add what the apostle Orson Pratt said.

The Seer pg 15. I quote " if we cannot convince you by reason nor by the word of God that YOUR religion is wrong we will not persecute you".

Notice he is speaking to people of others faiths. And he states he is trying to show they are wrong through talks, but says if we cannot convince you. Well I don't feel I have persecuted anyone if they disagree. Let me add what else he said.

I quote Orson pratt still pg 15.

"we ask from you the same generosity--protect us in the exercise of our religious rights--CONVINCE US of our errors of doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of God, and we will be ever grateful for the information, and you will ever have the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God redeeming your fellow beings from the darkness which you may see enveloping their minds".

I am just trying to look at mormonism in a logical way and point out what I believe are problems. I find it interesting that mormons of old were willing to tell others they were wrong or be open to talks, But it does not appear to be that way today. Then even after what Orson Pratt said, he does and feels should be done with the LDS I am still accused of being Contentious for sharing.


Ok this is stuff your Prophets have said about Christians. And if this is true, how can you say your a christian. If it is false, then your prophets were wrong, so could they be wrong about other stuff? Also regardless of whether it is true or not, could this be taken as a form of contention?

Here is what some of the former LDS Prophets and presidents have said about christians and I Quote:
"B Young: "with a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199). I quote 3rd president John Taylor (Brigham Young quotes Mr. Taylor) "Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell, the eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked onto the earth" (J.O.D 6:176). I quote Heber C. Kimball "Christians-those poor, miserable priests Brother Brigham was speaking about-some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth" (J.O.D 5:89)." then we can add the first vision by Joseph Smith. If God really did speak to him then he said all the christian creeds are an abomination in his sight.

I would think the Prophets who said that, had the Devil's Spirit of Contention. Rick b

More on the Adam God issue

The Adam-God Doctrine as Taught by Brigham Young

You said your church doesn’t teach the Adam/God doctrine. I’m willing to concede that the church may not teach or admit to this position publicly, but based on the following quotes from Brigham Young himself, how can you believe that the LDS church doesn’t hold to that teaching.

Brigham Young is the man next to Joseph Smith that every Mormon looks to. I mean, they named a college after him. He’s quoted every day by Mormons. Books for Mormon teaching are filled with his advice and instruction. Will you take any of that advice from a guy who holds to this Adam/ God doctrine? He sure held to it.

He called it, “one of the most glorious revealments of the economy of heaven.” Brigham Young taught it publicly as fact. If you don’t believe me, read your own copies of these publications. Stop ignoring facts. Look them up for yourself. Read the entire context.

These are some quotes from “Journal of Discourses,” and some other LDS sources.

How much unbelief exists in the minds of Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me - namely that Adam is our father and God...Then he said, "I want my children who are in the spirit world to come and live here. I once dwelt upon an earth something like this, in a mortal state. I was faithful. I received my crown and exaltation...I want my children that were born to me in the spirit world to come here and take tabernacles of flesh that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle..." (Brigham Young, Deseret Weekly News, June 18, 1873, page 308; Deseret Evening News, June 14, 1873.)

Who was the Savior begotten by?....Who did beget him? His Father, and his father is our God, and the Father of our spirits, and he is the framer of the body, the God and Father our Lord Jesus Christ. Who is he? He is Father Adam; Michael; the Ancient of Days.
(Pres. B. Young, Feb. 19, 1854; Brigham Young Collection, LDS Archives; Brigham Young Addresses, 1850-1854, Vol. 2, by Elden J. Watson, sheet 179 in chronological order, Historical Dept. Church, Ms d 1234, Box 48 Fd. 11


Some years ago I advanced a doctrine with regard to Adam being our Father and God...It is one of the most glorious revealments of the economy of heaven... (President Brigham Young, in the Tabernacle, General Conference, October 8, 1861, 10:30 a.m.; Brigham Young Addresses, 1860-1864, Vol. 4, by Elden J. Watson, sheet 134 in chronological order, Historical Dept. Church, Ms d 1234, Box 49 fd 8)


[In this next verse Matt- it becomes pretty clear that President Young just disregarded a verse in the Bible because he felt like it. That Adam was created by God the Father from the dust of this Earth should be clear to anyone who reads the verse, even casually. President Young simply chose not to believe it.]

You believe Adam was made of the dust of this earth. This I do not believe, though it is supposed that it is so written in the Bible; but it is not, to my understanding...I do not believe that portion of the Bible.... (Pres. Brigham Young, October 23, 1853, Journal Of Discourses 2:6).
*******
Adam was made from the dust of an earth, but not from the dust of this earth. He was made as you and I are made, and no person was ever made upon any other principle." (President Brigham Young, April 20, 1856, Journal of Discourses 3:319).

When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken - HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. (Brigham Young, April 9, 1852. Journal of Discourses 1:50)

These references show that Brigham Young, show clearly that President Brigham Young taught that not only was Adam God, but that he was also Michael the Archangel, and he called it doctrine and a revelation from God. This is absolutely refuted by the Bible Matt.

Another point I’d like to make to you is that though the LDS Church likes to say today that it disagrees completely with the Adam-God-Michael the Archangel doctrine as taught by President Young, but he didn’t have to submit these teachings formally to a Mormon Church membership vote because it was already in Mormon Scriptures. You should check these out:

And also with Michael or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days. (D&C 27:11, August 1830) Joseph Smith

Adam shall come to visit his people, or the Ancient of Days shall sit, as spoken of by Daniel the prophet. (D&C 116, May 19, 1838)Joseph Smith

Both of those verses are reinforced in D&C 138:38 when LDS President Joseph F. Smith wrote:
Among the great and mighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous were Father Adam, the Ancient of Days and father of all. (October 3,1918)

From these we learn:
1)That Mormon scripture purports that Adam/Michael is the Ancient of Days and the father referred to by Daniel the prophet in the Bible (see Daniel 7:9, 22 shown below).

2)Mormon scripture purports that Adam is the father of all, the prince of all.

3)Mormon scripture purports that Adam has the title Father - Father Adam (from the 1918 revelation)

From Daniel 7:9, 13, 14, 22 we find:
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

From these and the Doctrine and Covenants references we have:

a. From Daniel 7:9:The Mormon scriptures purport that Father Adam has a throne.
b. From Daniel 7:13-14: The Mormon scriptures purport that The "Son of Man,"--Jesus Christ , will come to and will be brought before “Father Adam” and “Father Adam” will give Jesus Christ dominion, and glory, and a Kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him. Only God the Father would have the authority to have Jesus Christ brought before him, and this means that LDS scriptures disagree sharply. The Mormon church says it rejects this doctrine, but it’s weird that Mormon scripture doesn’t. I know your friend Terry believes it.

*******President Brigham Young chose not to believe Genesis 2:7, simply because he didn’t want to. This is common among people who have little use or respect for the Bible. It didn’t serve his purposes Matt. But the Bible doesn’t serve our purposes—we serve the Bible’s purposes because they are the purposes of God the Father and our Lord Jesus the Messiah. You can’t pick and choose from the Bible--it is final in all matters of truth and doctrine. You believe it is the pure Word of God or you don’t. It’s that simple.

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (Matthew 24:35)
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Matthew 18:20)

1. "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" 1 Timothy 2:5
2. "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." Isaiah 43:10
3. "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God ...Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." Isaiah 44:6, 8
4. "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" Isaiah 44:24
5. "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else...Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me." Isaiah 45:5-6, 21
6 "For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself," Hebrews 6:13
7. "Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee." Nehemiah 9:6
8. "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" Colossians 1:16
9. "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" Hebrews 1:2
10. "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." Psalms 90:2
11. "Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting." Psalms 93:2
12. "But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting ....." Psalms 103:17
13. "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24
14. "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." Luke 24:39
15. "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect." Genesis 17:1
16. "Unto thee it was showed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him." Deuteronomy 4:35
17. "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" Deuteronomy 6:4
18. "Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else." Deuteronomy 4:39
19. "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;" Deuteronomy 7:9
20. "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them." Exodus 6:3


Just to let every one know, This ENTIRE TOPIC/ARTICLE was sent to me by a believing brother in the Lord. None of this is my work, just so everyone knows. But I agree with this and thought I would add it to my Adam God topic. Rick b

Adam God Doctrine

My next topic is on the ADAM GOD DOCTRINE
Below is a scanned copy from the JoD talking about Adam God.



You can click on the link and read from 19 different prefaces of the JoD to see exactly how LDS of old viewed the JoD. It ranges from, Should be doctrine to it is doctrine. JoD


Now Wer62 on his blog, says about LDS doctrine

When Wilford Woodruff , as President of the Church, committed the Latter-day Saints to discontinue the practice of plural marriage, his official declaration was submitted to the Sixtieth Semiannual General Conference of the Church on October 6th 1890, which was accepted unaimmously as authoritative and binding. It was that vote that made the document "official". Now this document has been added to the Doctrine and Covenants.

B.H. Roberts, a General Authority of the LDS Church summarizes the issue perhaps as well as anyone has:

The Church has confined the sources of doctrine by which it is willing to be bound before the world to the things that God has revealed, and which the Church has officially accepted, and those alone. These world include the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price; these have been repeatedly accepted and endorsed by the Church in general conference assembled, and that are the only sources of absolute apparel for our doctrine.

Anyone claiming that the LDS Church teaches doctrine or promotes doctrine outside of these sources no matter who spoke it is inaccurate.
Wer62 (Ed)

Here are some problems I have with what Wer62 (Ed) says.
Although many Mormons do not view other LDS writings as official Scripture (for example, The Seer or The Journal of Discourses), it should be remembered that many of these writings consist of the words of very prominent leaders in the Mormon Church. As such individuals commanded great respect they were certainly influential over the rank and file. Their statements must have carried some weight. Mormon leaders in prominent positions, like Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, and Bruce R. McConkie, influenced those who looked to them for leadership. The words of these early LDS leaders did not just go out into a vacuum, they went the hearts and minds of the Mormon people and were incorporated into their beliefs.

It would also seem that many Mormon leaders have tended to view their words as carrying a great deal of weight. For example, regarding the sermons of Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses it is interesting to look at some of Young's words himself as to how he viewed what was contained in the Discourses:

"I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them to the celestial kingdom, as I know the road to my office...I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve." (Journal of Discourses, vol.13.p.95. Also see vol.13.p.264).

It can be pointed out that there are some doctrines of Mormonism that are simply not found in the official Standard Works. The LDS doctrine of their being a "Mother in Heaven" is one example. Nowhere is this doctrine found in any of the official Standard Works of the Church. However, such a doctrine is vital in the Mormon concept of eternal progression. If God was not married to His wife in Mormonism then He could never have become God in the first place.

Some Mormons will object that unless a statement by an LDS Church leader opens with the statement "Thus saith the Lord", then it can be set aside as the mere opinion of the speaker. However, not everyone would agree with this. In 1980 prominent Mormon leaders gave a speech which contained the following words:

"SIXTH: The Prophet Does Not Have to Say "Thus Saith the Lord" to Give Us Scripture. Sometimes there are those who haggle over words. They might say the prophet gave us counsel but that we are not obligated to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the Lord says of the Prophet, "Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you." (D&C 21:4.) And speaking of taking counsel from the Prophet, in D&C 108:1, the Lord states: "Verily thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Lyman: Your sins are forgiven you, because you have obeyed my voice in coming up hither this morning to receive counsel of him whom I have appointed."

14 fundamentals

Furthermore, the popular, and widely distributed, LDS Church manual Gospel Principles clearly states that the inspired words of the living prophet are supposed to be accepted as scripture by Latter-day Saints. (Gospel Principles, p. 55).


Apparently Young was confident with his message for on January 2, 1870, he said,

"I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture" (Journal of Discourses 13:95). Brigham would repeat this again in October of the same year (Journal of Discourses 13:264).

It may surprise some, but Brigham Young's Adam-God connection is in harmony with the teachings of Joseph Smith. It was Joseph Smith who declared that Adam was, in fact, the Ancient of Days. Doctrine and Covenants 27:11; 116:1; 138:38 all state that Adam is the Ancient of Days.

Joseph Smith even attempted to get the Bible to concur with this thought when he said, "Daniel in his seventh chapter speaks of the Ancient of Days, he means the oldest man, our Father Adam..." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 157). Smith was referring to Daniel 7:13 which reads, "I saw the night visions, and behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days and they brought him near before him."

Brigham Young places the honest Latter-day Saint on the horns of a dilemma. If the Mormon wishes to claim Young as a true prophet, he must also accept his Adam-God teaching since a true prophet must have a correct theology concerning God (Deut. 13:1-3). If Young's teaching is not accepted, then the Mormon must conclude that Brigham Young was a false prophet. The Mormon can't have it both ways.

Remember you did read for your self that, B Young, in this sermon, clearly claims his teachings to be "doctrine." In one of his closing remarks, Young warns, "Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation."

Heber C. Kimball, declared on June 29, 1856,

"I have learned by experience that there is but one God that pertains to this people, and He is the God that pertains to this earth--the first man. That first man sent his own Son to redeem the world, to redeem his brethren; his life was taken, his blood shed, that our sins might be remitted. That Son called twelve men and ordained them to be Apostles, and when he departed the keys of the kingdom were deposited with three of those twelve, viz.: Peter, James, and John" (Journal of Discourses 4:1).

who are the LDS talking about?

Members of the LDS Church are familiar with the charge that Mormonism isn't a Christian faith. They hear it often enough, but they really don't understand why people think that. "We are Christians," Mormon President Gordon B. Hinckley insisted. "We have the name of Jesus Christ right in the name of our Church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We follow Christ. We worship Him. We love Him. He is the center of all we do"("Inspirational Thoughts," Liahona, June 1999, 3; 2 Nephi 25:24-29).

Below is 15 relatively recent statements made by LDS leaders, who are the Church leaders talking about. Rick b

1. His teachings "are the foundation of our faith. Everything we have is a lengthened shadow of [him]."

2. "I pray we may learn from his example, that we might incorporate into our lives the great principles which he so beautifully taught; that we ourselves might emulate him;..."

3. "I honor and revere [his] name... I delight to hear it; I love it. I love his doctrine... I am his witness."

4. "He died for those he loved. He reigns in the realms above."

5. "The more I learn of him, the more I love and revere him."

6. "I look to him. I love him. I seek to follow him."

7. "He not only gave us joy, happiness and opportunity here, but also a great hope in the life to come."

8. "Today, this Sabbath day, in many thousands of congregations, perhaps as many as twenty-one thousand, in many areas of the earth, our people have sung or will sing the praises of [him]."

9. "Of noble seed, of heavenly birth, he came to bless the sons of earth."

10. He was "a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief."

11. "Church members are interested in learning more about [him] because they love him and they love the gospel he brought forth."

12. "How great indeed is our debt to him. ...Great is his glory,... We stand in reverence before him... Let us not forget him. Let not his memory be forgotten in the celebration of Christmas."

13. "...and he shall stand in due time on the earth, in the flesh, and fulfill that to which he is appointed."

14. "The light, provided to the world by [him], illuminates the confusion, clarifies the principles of the gospel, and helps lead men and women to their own eternal reward, if they will but endure to the end."

15. The "work that has been carried out by President Young and his brethren [of the Twelve] has been in accordance with the plans, and designs, and Spirit, and instructions of [him]."


How did you do? If you thought these statements were about Jesus—the One Mormons claim to worship and adore, the One they say is the center of all they do—you are incorrect. In each statement above, the speaker was talking about Joseph Smith.

Quotes with References:


1. His teachings "are the foundation of our faith. Everything we have is a lengthened shadow of [him]." (15th President Gordon B. Hinckley, Church News, 3/19/2005, p.3.)

2. "I pray we may learn from his example, that we might incorporate into our lives the great principles which he so beautifully taught; that we ourselves might emulate him;..." (Thomas Monson (First Presidency), Ensign, 6/1994, p.7.)

3. "I honor and revere [his] name... I delight to hear it; I love it. I love his doctrine... I am his witness." (2nd President Brigham Young, quoted in Ensign, 1/1996, p.7.)

4. "He died for those he loved. He reigns in the realms above." (3rd President John Taylor, Hymns #296, "The Seer, Joseph, The Seer." While this hymn was written in the 18th century, it is still in use as evidenced by its performance by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir during the 175th Semi-Annual General Conference of the LDS Church in October, 2005.)

5. "The more I learn of him, the more I love and revere him." (Apostle Joseph B. Wirthlin, Church News, 2/19/2005, p.5.)

6. "I look to him. I love him. I seek to follow him." (15th Gordon B. Hinckley, Church News, 12/13/2003, p.3.)

7. "He not only gave us joy, happiness and opportunity here, but also a great hope in the life to come." (Apostle L. Tom Perry, Church News, 7/3/1993, p.4.)

8. "Today, this Sabbath day, in many thousands of congregations, perhaps as many as twenty-one thousand, in many areas of the earth, our people have sung or will sing the praises of [him]." (15th President Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, 9/1994, p.62.)

9. "Of noble seed, of heavenly birth, he came to bless the sons of earth." (John Taylor, Hymns #296, "The Seer, Joseph, The Seer.")

10. He was "a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief." (BYU Professor Robert Millet, Ensign, 9/1994, p.19.)

11. "Church members are interested in learning more about [him] because they love him and they love the gospel he brought forth." (LDS Church Historian Glen M. Leonard, Church News, 12/6/1997, p.4.)

12. "How great indeed is our debt to him. ...Great is his glory,... We stand in reverence before him... Let us not forget him. Let not his memory be forgotten in the celebration of Christmas." (15th President Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, 12/1997, p.2.)

13. "...and he shall stand in due time on the earth, in the flesh, and fulfill that to which he is appointed." (Church News, 7/19/1994, p.5.)

14. "The light, provided to the world by [him], illuminates the confusion, clarifies the principles of the gospel, and helps lead men and women to their own eternal reward, if they will but endure to the end." (Church News, 12/13/1997, p.16.)

15. The "work that has been carried out by President Young and his brethren [of the Twelve] has been in accordance with the plans, and designs, and Spirit, and instructions of [him]." (George A. Smith (First Presidency), quoted in Church News, 12/20/1997, p.7.)

Do the LDS want to be like this?

My question centers around this passage from Alma 26:29-31. Notice these Missionarys it speaks of were beaten, mocked, spit upon thrown in jail ect. Honestly I dont see LDS members today who are willing to make such a sacrafice for their faith. My question for the LDS is simply this. Are you willing to be like these mormons of old. Yes or No. If yes please explain or give an example of how. If not then please explain why not. Thank you, Rick B

29 And we have entered into their houses and taught them, and we have taught them in their streets; yea, and we have taught them upon their hills; and we have also entered into their temples and their synagogues and taught them; and we have been cast out, and mocked, and spit upon, and smote upon our cheeks; and we have been stoned, and taken and bound with strong cords, and cast into prison; and through the power and wisdom of God we have been delivered again.

30 And we have suffered all manner of afflictions, and all this, that perhaps we might be the means of saving some soul; and we supposed that our joy would be full if perhaps we could be the means of saving some.

31 Now behold, we can look forth and see the fruits of our labors; and are they few? I say unto you, Nay, they are many; yea, and we can witness of their sincerity, because of their love towards their brethren and also towards us.

Was their a Total apostasy of the Church?

My next Topic/Question is this, Was their a Total apostasy of the Church as LDS claim?

The Church of Jesus Christ met a violent death, sickened and died, fell into complete apostasy and was destroyed. This supposedly happened shortly after the death of the original twelve apostles. This is a very important point for Mormonism. In order for their claim of being the restoration of Christ’s Church to be valid, there needed to be a falling away of the original one. Did the first century Church really fall into complete apostasy? What did Jesus have to say about the subject?

Matthew 16:18- And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the Gates of Hades shall not overpower it.
The first thing that needs to be realized about the above LDS quote, is that wicked men were allowed to put Jesus to death. Jesus was not overcome or triumphed over. He willingly laid down his life. In contrast to His willingness to die, He said that His church would not be prevailed over. It is a terrible jump in logic to think that because Jesus laid down His life, that He would allow His church to be overpowered also. Especially in the light of the fact that He specifically says that the Church will not be overpowered.

This is a clear promise made by Christ Himself. His church, once established, will not meet a violent death, sicken and die, fall into complete apostasy or be destroyed. We have one of two choices. Either Jesus was wrong, or the Mormon church is wrong. Jesus also stated, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall not pass away.” (Matthew 24:35) If Jesus is wrong, then He can not be trusted and must be viewed as either incompetent or as a liar. If the Mormon church is wrong, then there was no need for a restoration and their claims to be the only true church are false.

Another verse, which refutes the idea of a total apostasy, is Jude 3. “Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.” Notice that this verse says that the faith was delivered, “once for all.” If it was delivered “once for all,” then there is no need to deliver it again. Obviously Jude, inspired by the Holy Spirit, did not believe in a coming total apostasy.

I would also like to appeal to the Book of Mormon, for the sake of our Mormon readers. The book of 4th Nephi describes a time when the “true faith” continued to thrive. An official LDS church manual states, “As the original twelve Nephite disciples chosen by the Savior passed away, new disciples were chosen to take their place. This practice evidently continued as long as the Nephites were righteous enough to have a church organization amongst them. The three Nephite disciples who were promised by the Savior that they should live on the earth until his second coming apparently continued to work with the people for several hundred years.” (Book Of Mormon Student Manual, Religion 121-122, 1979 p.450)

We have an unavoidable contradiction. In one official LDS church booklet, the church claims that the apostasy occurred “shortly after the death of the Lord’s original twelve apostles,” while another official publication says that the work continued for “several hundred years.” In the light of what the Bible has clearly stated regarding the endurance of Christ’s church, it is obvious that both LDS quotes are wrong.


I am going to give extra verse so people cannot say I am quoting out of context. Mormons like to use 1st Timothy 4:1 to claim a total Apostasy happened.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

No place in this verse do I read that their WAS a total Apostasy of the Church. It says SOME SHALL DEPART FROM THE FAITH Notice it does not say ALL SHALL DEPART FROM THE FAITH

Again I give more info for context.

Mat 28:15 So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.
Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

Notice verse 20, How could Jesus be with us till the end of the world, if we ALL fell into apostasy?

I quote

Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Eph 3:21 Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Can I ask, how could Jesus be glorified by the Church throughout the Ages if the Church fell into a total Apostasy?

Ok, now on my blog, under the topic of, the LDS side of it A mormon going by Sheepdog said

SD: Rick! It’s not that I don’t trust the verses, I just don’t trust you to define them for me!
Rick, The WICKED have never heard His voice or seen His face!!!
Read the next sentence, “And ye have not his word abiding in you.”
He’s not saying that NOBODY has seen Him, He’s saying the wicked have not. Neither have they heard His voice! Why? Because they believe folks like you who teach them NOT to pray. You teach them to trust you to tell them what scripture means and what God meant when he spoke to others.

Ok, I am not saying every LDS member holds the same view as Sheepdog, but she seems to believe The wicked cannot hear the voice of the Lord. If this is true and we all fell into Apostasy, how could God speak to us, in order to be set straight? If even one person did not fall into Apostasy, then their could not be a Total Apostasy could their? So either we have an LDS member learning stuff from her Church that is in correct, or she is giving her own views, but yet she did tell me, the Scriptures are not open to Private interpretation.

Now I will quote the entire chapter of 3 Nephi 28.

3 Nephi
1 And it came to pass when Jesus had said these words, he spake unto his disciples, one by one, saying unto them: What is it that ye desire of me, after that I am gone to the Father?
2 And they all spake, save it were three, saying: We desire that after we have lived unto the age of man, that our ministry, wherein thou hast called us, may have an end, that we may speedily come unto thee in thy kingdom.
3 And he said unto them: Blessed are ye because ye desired this thing of me; therefore, after that ye are seventy and two years old ye shall come unto me in my kingdom; and with me ye shall find crest.
4 And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father?
5 And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.
6 And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.
7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.
8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.
9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.
10 And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are bone;
11 And the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and the Father giveth the Holy Ghost unto the children of men, because of me.
12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words, he touched every one of them with his finger save it were the three who were to tarry, and then he departed.
13 And behold, the heavens were opened, and they were caught up into heaven, and saw and heard unspeakable things.
14 And it was forbidden them that they should utter; neither was it given unto them power that they could utter the things which they saw and heard;
15 And whether they were in the body or out of the body, they could not tell; for it did seem unto them like a transfiguration of them, that they were changed from this body of flesh into an immortal state, that they could behold the things of God.
16 But it came to pass that they did again minister upon the face of the earth; nevertheless they did not minister of the things which they had heard and seen, because of the commandment which was given them in heaven.
17 And now, whether they were mortal or immortal, from the day of their transfiguration, I know not;
18 But this much I know, according to the record which hath been given—they did go forth upon the face of the land, and did minister unto all the people, uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost.
19 And they were cast into prison by them who did not belong to the church. And the prisons could not hold them, for they were rent in twain.
20 And they were cast down into the earth; but they did smite the earth with the word of God, insomuch that by his power they were delivered out of the depths of the earth; and therefore they could not dig pits sufficient to hold them.
21 And thrice they were cast into a furnace and received no harm.
22 And twice were they cast into a den of wild beasts; and behold they did play with the beasts as a child with a suckling lamb, and received no harm.
23 And it came to pass that thus they did go forth among all the people of Nephi, and did preach the gospel of Christ unto all people upon the face of the land; and they were converted unto the Lord, and were united unto the church of Christ, and thus the people of that generation were blessed, according to the word of Jesus.
24 And now I, Mormon, make an end of speaking concerning these things for a time.
25 Behold, I was about to write the names of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.
26 But behold, I have seen them, and they have ministered unto me.
27 And behold they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not.
28 They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not.
29 And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them.
30 And they are as the angels of God, and if they shall pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus they can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good.
31 Therefore, great and marvelous works shall be wrought by them, before the great and coming day when all people must surely stand before the judgment-seat of Christ;
32 Yea even among the Gentiles shall there be a great and marvelous work wrought by them, before that judgment day.
33 And if ye had all the scriptures which give an account of all the marvelous works of Christ, ye would, according to the words of Christ, know that these things must surely come.

According to this, some Disciples shall not taste death till the Lord returns. So if this is true, how could the Church fall into a Total Apostasy?

Now I will Quote all of D and C chapter 7.

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 7
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Oliver Cowdery, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, April 1829, when they inquired through the Urim and Thummim as to whether John, the beloved disciple, tarried in the flesh or had died. The revelation is a translated version of the record made on parchment by John and hidden up by himself. HC 1: 35—36.
1—3, John the Beloved shall live until the Lord comes; 4—8, Peter, James, and John hold gospel keys.
1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.
2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.
3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.
4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom.
5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.
6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.
7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.
8 Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both joy in that which ye have desired.

Again, if this is true, How could their be a total Apostasy of the Church if John never died? Rick b

over view of things said by sheepdog

Ok guys, this is not really a new topic on mormonism. I just want to give an over view of things I said or things that were said, then touch on some issues.

First off, I understand that their are a lot of topics to read over, If you are going to start posting here on a regular basis, Might I suggest reading over every topic, not the reply's so much.

People seem to think I forgot to say something or I missed something, when in fact it was covered, you simply did not read over everything. If you don't like my blog, you don't need to stay here and read stuff.

To set the record straight, I don't hate the LDS people, I do believe you are in a false religion that will take you to hell after you die. I believe my belief is correct, then while it is hard for you to read me saying I see problems with your beliefs, It is in fact a very loving thing for me to do, expose error. Because if I am correct and your wrong, not only will you go to hell, but you also will bring people with you by the converts you made.

But if your correct and my beliefs is wrong, then we both most likely will meet in the second heaven someday.

Now I want to quote Sheepdog here,

I am just trying to keep rick honest. He says a lot of things about my faith that are way off. He misrepresents scripture because he takes it out of context so that he can apply his own meanings.

By saying, I am trying to keep rick honest, implies I have been both dishonest and lying. If this is the case, please provide exactly where and how this happened, Other wise, if it is more a matter of we simply disagree, please state that you disagree with something I said. Otherwise you are the one lying and being dishonest.

I feel I have been more than fair in my approach here, by posting more than enough for context plus adding scanned copies of things said by the LDS church. You said, I say a lot of things about your faith that are way off, Again please explain how, unless again we simply disagree, but disagreeing is far different than flat out lying.

I also was told I am taking thing out of context, please give us the "full" context then that I seem to forget. Now I have pointed out before, the Prophet J.F.S. clearly stated IF JS is a fraud he must be exposed. Why is it, I follow your prophet in that and LDS get mad? But yet you guys tell me to listen to your prophet. when I do, you don't like it.


Sd, You said

It always amazes me when I hear someone deny the power of God to answer prayer. Do you want me to list where it DOES tell people to pray and rely on the Spirit of God to confirm truth?

Sheep dog, My answer would be yes, please provide this list, You expect info from me, so I will expect it from you.

Then SD, You said

“Pray, lest ye enter into temptation”
Are you not encouraging people to avoid “the temptation” to join with Mormonism? But you don’t want to allow God to tell them who we are, you want that position. You are afraid God will not give the answer you want Him to.

You know as well as I do, this statement of your is very deceitful, You should be ashamed of your self. You do what you accuse the Anti's of Doing. Here is why I say that. Here is a list of the differences between what we as Christians believe verses what LDS believe.

LDS Terminology Differences


Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints commonly use words and phrases also employed by Evangelical Christians. While the terminology may sound the same, the intended meanings are often quite different. Misunderstandings arise when words are not clearly understood, thus communication is severely hindered. In order that your discussions with a Latter-day Saint may be more productive, a short comparative list of terms is supplied below. While this list should help you better understand LDS vocabulary, it is always a good idea for all participants in a conversation to define their terms.

GODHEAD:

LDS--The unified "committee" of a Father god, his Son Jesus the Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Father god is a resurrected man with a physical body. Christ is a separate resurrected god with a physical body. The Holy Ghost is a separate god with only a spiritual body. These are three totally separate and distinct Gods.

BIBLE--A reference to the Trinity: One God eternally existent in three Persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In addition, the Bible teaches God is not a man (Numbers 23:19); There is only one God (Isaiah 43:10-11; 44:6; 45:21-22); The Father is Spirit and invisible (John 4:24; 1 Timothy 1:17).

JESUS CHRIST:

LDS--A created being, the first spirit child of Elohim and one of his wives, the spirit brother of Lucifer the devil.

BIBLE--The eternal God manifested in the flesh; the One that created all things (John 1:1-3, 14).

HOLY GHOST:

LDS--A separate God from the Father and the Son; different from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Ghost is a person whereas the Holy Spirit is an influence from Father, not personal.

BIBLE--The same Greek word is used for Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 3:16; 6:19). He is the third Person of the one triune God.

VIRGIN BIRTH:

LDS--God, as a resurrected physical man, became the literal father of Jesus in the flesh. Christ was conceived in the same physical manner in which all mortals are conceived. (LDS contend that Matthew 1:18 is in error.)

BIBLE-- The Holy Ghost, without the participation of a human (or physically embodied) father, conceived Jesus in the womb of Mary (Matthew 1:18).

SCRIPTURE:

LDS--The Bible (with reservation) plus additional revelation from God found in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. Words of latter-day Prophets are also recognized as scripture.

BIBLE--The Bible alone, which is infallible and without error, and the sole authority for all matters of Christian belief and practice (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:3).

GOSPEL:

LDS--The Mormon church system and doctrines.

BIBLE--The message of Christ's death and resurrection as atonement for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Colossians 1:22-23).

FALL:

LDS--Adam's transgression which brought mortality and physical death to humanity, but not a fallen nature. Adam was given two conflicting commandments and chose the correct one to obey.

BIBLE--The event in which Adam and Eve disobeyed the explicit command of God, bringing sin and death onto the human race. As a consequence of the Fall, humans are alienated from God and in need of a Savior. In addition, the Bible teaches God tempts no one (James 1:13-14); Man is sinful in his very nature (Romans 8:5-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14).

SIN:

LDS--Specific acts, not man's basic nature.

BIBLE--The fundamental unbelief, distrust and rejection of God as God. The Bible presents sin as both fallen humanity's state of separation and alienation from God and as an individual's purposeful disobedience to God's will. In addition, the Bible teaches we are in spiritual rebellion until conversion (Ephesians 2:3-5; Romans 5:21); We do not just commit sins, we are by nature sinful (Matthew 1:21).

REPENTANCE:

LDS--Repentance of individual acts, not of sinful nature. To repent, one must feel sincere sorrow for his sins, stop sinning and keep the commandments of God. Some serious sins also require confession to LDS priesthood authority. True repentance is evidenced by the person never committing the same sin again; if he does, it is evidence that he did not truly repent and so his former sin returns to him.

BIBLE--A deep sense that the worst thing about one's sin is that it has offended a holy God. Repentance involves turning from sin to Christ, with a sincere desire to live in obedience to His leading. It is an attitude of the heart. In addition, the Bible teaches one must repent of basic rebellion toward God (Jeremiah 17:9; Luke 5:32).

ATONEMENT--SALVATION BY GRACE:

LDS--Universal resurrection, also known as salvation by grace, brought about by Christ's suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and death on the Cross. Beyond resurrection, man must earn his own place in heaven.

BIBLE--Refers to God's act of dealing with the primary human problem of sin, which has broken the relationship between God and humankind. God accomplished the way of restoration through Christ's sacrificial death on the Cross. Salvation is not universal, but based on each individual's relationship with Jesus, being given as a free gift of grace to those who trust in Christ alone (Romans 1:16: Hebrews 9:28: Ephesians 2:8-9).

BORN AGAIN:

LDS---Baptism into the LDS church.

BIBLE--Refers to our spiritual rebirth through faith, having previously been dead in our sins (1 Peter 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:17).

REDEEMED:

LDS---Redemption from mortal death only, not sinful rebellion or spiritual death. See Atonement-Salvation By Grace.

BIBLE--Redemption through Christ from more than mortal death. He redeems us from spiritual death (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:1).

ETERNAL LIFE:

LDS--Exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom with the ability to eternally bear children in heaven. Requires an LDS temple marriage.

BIBLE--Dwelling forever in the presence of God, a free gift given to all who believe. No mention of parenthood or marriage (John 14:2; Matthew 22:30).

HEAVEN:

LDS--The eternal dwelling place of deceased humans, divided into three kingdoms: Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial with a place for almost everyone (misuse of 1 Corinthians 15:40-41).

BIBLE--The eternal dwelling place of the redeemed. The Bible does not mention various levels of heaven. Rather, there are only two post-mortal conditions: everlasting punishment or life eternal (Matthew 25:31-46).

HELL:

LDS--An eternal institution where deceased people pay for their mortal sins; inmates come and go as in jail, they do not spend eternity there. They stay until their debt to God has been paid in full.

BIBLE--A place of eternal conscious punishment for the wicked. There is no indication that people will ever be released from Hell (Revelation 21:8; Matthew 13:24-43; 47-50; Luke 16:26).

TRUE CHURCH:

LDS--The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All other churches are corrupt to greater or lesser degrees.

BIBLE--The community of all true believers for all time. The Bible does not recognize an institution or denomination as God's church, but defines it as being comprised of people -- those who have been redeemed by Christ's blood (1 Corinthians 12:12-14; Matthew 16:18; 18:19-20).

PRE-EXISTENCE:

LDS--The premortal period of time between the birth of spirit children to God and their birth into mortal life. Everyone pre-existed before life on earth. All have existed eternally.

BIBLE--Refers to Christ as the only pre-existent One (John 8:58; Colossians 1:17). For humans there is no spiritual existence prior to mortality (1 Corinthians 15:46).

AUTHORITY/PRIESTHOOD:

LDS--The power and authority of God given to men to act in things pertaining to the LDS Church and salvation. Only LDS have authority to baptize, ordain, and so forth. In the LDS Church there is a two-part system of priesthood: Melchizedek and Aaronic.

BIBLE--Refers to the priesthood of believers which is the privilege and freedom of all believing Christians to stand before God in personal communion through Christ, directly receiving forgiveness without the need for human intermediaries. In addition, the Bible teaches Christ brought an end to the Aaronic priesthood and He is the ONLY High Priest after the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 5:10; 1 Peter 2:5).

Now the very deceptive part of this is, LDS missionary's or LDS in general don't up front tell you all of this until after you convert and spend time in the Church.

Then you put words in my mouth and group me into groups I don't belong to. Examples, I never said not to pray, And I did not say I don't believe in prayer, Show me where I said that. Then you claim I follow Constantine and the creeds. I don't follow him and The Church I attend we do not teach or talk about him, we read the Bible and go verse by verse and chapter by chapter.

Their might be people or Church's that follow him but not me or the Church I go to. Lets add to that, that you imply he destroyed the Bible, so your saying God is not strong enough to protect His Word? Psalms 138 says He (God) puts His Word above His name. Their were many written manuscripts Long before Constantine was alive, and they were hidden away. We have since found the Dead sea scrolls that prove the word was and has been preserved.

SD, Something else I want to adress you on, You said

If I feel it's worth sharing the evidence I have with you I will. I'll have to ask God if I ought to

Now you say, If I feel why is this ok for you to say that, you might not Like the answer from God? So if you feel, then you will ask him. Then, let me ask you, do you really think, God would say, NO, Dont share info with Rick that might help him better understand or even know the truth and be set free? Just something else to think about, I am not telling people what YOU believe, I am asking questions about your beliefes and posting what I see as problems, and you refuse to answer the questions I post. Rick b