Mormons ask court to silence preacher who believes their church is a cult
The Telegraph/November 25, 2004
By David Millward
An evangelical Christian accused of harassing the Mormon church spent nearly three hours knocking on an elder's door, the High Court was told yesterday.
Andrew Price, a preacher with the Church of England (Continuing) visited Elder Dustin Shaver at his home in Walthamstow, north London in September as part of his campaign against the Mormons.
Elder Shaver was not the only reluctant recipient of Mr Price's evangelising, Fenner Moeran, the Mormons' counsel, told Mr Justice Beatson.
On one night in August Mr Price bombarded Mormons - members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - with phone calls. He made 90 in less than four hours.
Mr Price also sent more than 80 evangelical texts from his mobile phone to a handset belonging to Elder Daniel Pitt over a period of two months.
The court was shown several videos of Mr Price in action. In one he was preaching in stentorian tones from behind metal railings at one of the Mormon church's London chapels.
In a second he was "evangelising" outside a metal gate to a garage at the Mormons' chapel in Hyde Park and in the third, he was at the door of the Mormons' offices in South Kensington.
The court heard how on Oct 28 Mr Price pursued three Mormons from their London headquarters in Exhibition Road, South Kensington to the Tube station.
He followed them on the Circle Line and Victoria Line until they finished their journey at Black horse Road in north London.
Throughout the journey Mr Price was trying to show them the error of their ways.
"I was addressing them and they were listening" he said. "In one sense I was preaching in so far as one Christian was speaking to them about the gospel."
The Mormon church has argued that Mr Price has taken evangelising too far and has asked the High Court to grant it an injunction to prevent him from continuing his protests outside its properties. It wants him kept at least 30 yards from any of its churches throughout the country. It also wants him banned from making calls to Mormons' mobile phones unless invited to do so.
But giving evidence yesterday Mr Price, 44, of Chiswick, west London said he believed it was his duty to inform people of what the religion stood for.
"I would describe Mormonism in its presentation as being like the Venus fly trap.
"There is something attractive which lures an insect into the body of the plant. Then it closes and the plant is happy because it has its prey."
Mr Price, who admitted he often spent six days a week preaching outside Mormon churches, denied he had shouted or screamed at worshippers.
"I have some experience of the effect talking and preaching has on the human voice," he said.
"It is simply not possible for a person to be shouting, screaming and ranting for a long period of time. The voice would go."
Admitting that his voice was stronger than most, Mr Price insisted that he was not addressing those inside the Mormon buildings but passers-by and visitors.
"It was my intention to bring to the public attention the nature of this body. It is a cult."
Cross-examined by Mr Moeran, he admitted that he spent considerable amounts of time preaching his message.
"I could be outside their buildings for eight hours a day, maybe longer," said Mr Price who describes himself as Britain's leading critic of the Mormon church.
Challenged why he had persisted in trying to contact Mormon missionaries, despite their pleas to be left alone, Mr Price said many had been brainwashed.
Asked whether he would abide by the terms of an injunction, Mr Price said: "My wife and I will have to make a lot of decisions.
"As far as I am concerned the Mormon people need help."
The hearing continues.
This is Bills first reply to my Question.
Bills said...
Rick
The real reason that faithful Latter-day Saints cannot accept Evangelical-Protestant beliefs is simple, because your god is a LOSER.
I know this statement sounds UN-loving and a bit harsh at first, but it's the honest TRUTH.
Clearly, your own interpretive theology makes void the Atonement of Christ and the Doctrine of Repentance. Sadly, according to your own religious philosophy, not everyone is going to be "SAVED." So, for you, your only choice is choose between heaven or hell and either choice you make is made from fear and ignorance.
Ultimately this means that your incomprehensible LOSER god is not just a LOSER, but also a SADIST.
So, in the providence and wisdom of Almighty God, do honestly believe that Jesus Christ is a dismal failure and too weak to
"Save" the entire human family?
Obviously, faithful Latter-day Saints do not share your same defective view of deity. I think it's truly a shame that you don't have a better description of your
loving Creator and the marvelous Plan Of Salvation.
As for the Latter-day Saints, our loving God came to seek and save that which is LOST. For us this happens to include EVERYONE within the entire human family. This is the reason we build Temples to the Most High God and send our loving
missionaries into all the world. One-by-one, people are coming to a knowledge of the restored TRUTH.
The Lord gladly accepts all those who truly REPENT -- Dead or alive. Eventually, all the children of God will be "SAVED/Restored" -- Praise be to God!
Consider the following words that were delivered by our Lord and Savior:
"What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance." Luke 15:4-7.
So let the true laborers in Thy Harvest; go forth, O God, even the Messengers of Thy Kingdom; and let Truth and Judgment go before Them unto Victory. so let Thy Kingdom come: and let Thy Will be done; even here upon Earth, as it is in Heaven: Amen.
Wishing you peace and much understanding,
Bills
PS -- Like Joseph Smith, Sir Isaac Newton also rejected the Trinity. Notice that the word Trinity is absent from every book of ancient scripture. Joseph Smith stated that the Trinity doctrine was an "ABOMINATION" and Newton declared it was a "FRAUD." Great minds think alike, don't they?
Bills Second reply to me was:
Bills
said...
Hey Rick B. it's Bills, my name is Bills -- Thank you!
Your whole purpose in evangelizing faithful Latter-day Saints is to SAVE them from burning in hell for all eternity -- Right?
So, anyone who is not "Saved" by your own interpretive theology will end-up in hell for the rest of eternity -- Right?
And, should I end-up in hell for the rest of eternity, this means that your defective idiot god is LOSER -- Right?
Well, somehow you just LOST me!
Nevertheless, I will never accept your idiot LOSER god philosophy or "ABOMINATION" theology.
The loving God that I worship knows how to "SAVE" the entire human family and not just a select few. Besides, only LOSERS are stupid enough to believe in some idiot god who's a LOSER.
So let the true laborers in Thy Harvest; go forth, O God, even the Messengers of Thy Kingdom; and let Truth and Judgment go before Them unto Victory. so let Thy Kingdom come: and let Thy Will be done; even here upon Earth, as it is in Heaven: Amen.
H A L L E L U J A H
Wishing you peace and much understanding,
Bills
PS -- Here's a list of Protestant-Evangelical teachings that are clearly absent from every book of ancient scripture. This should give you a few ideas to work on.
Trinity doctrine; Rapture theory; Alter calls; Sinners prayer; Death bed repentance; Salvation by faith alone theory; defective LOSER god philosophy; Biblical Inerrancy; Sola Scriptura; Creation Ex Nihilo.
The reason I am posting this is simple, I see (Bills) doing the same thing to non-mormons, as Andrew does to mormons. For all who disagree, please go and read my replys to him under the (2 questions) Topic. He came on trash talking, I asked him to at least reply to my questions before going off topic, and also to provide scripture to support his views, He did neither, yet replyed a second time, again talking trash. Then as I stated in my reply, I asked for Mormons to provide Ideas for topics, He sugested the Trinity, Yet I did an indepth article on the trinity, This tells me he never even looked over a single thing I wrote, he just came spouting off trash.
I have been on the FairLDS board and reachout trust board, One a mormon board one a non mormon board, both sides have rules for you to abide by and they do enforce them, Why should I be any different. Rick b
14 comments:
LOL LOL LOL!!!!!! Oh does the Devil laugg out loud through this guy....I love that arrogance about great minds thinking alike....Newton...Oh yeah the guy who thought(that be great thinking stuff)who thoughthe discovered gravity....Hmmm and just "think" if he hadn't we all would have fallen off the planet years ago....
Maybe the words of the Lord unto Job should be applied here....And where were you when the foundations were laid....? Hmmm maybe this Bill shouls also recall a few other words of Gods....Like...God is not mocked,His ways are not our ways,we shall never know fully His ways....Course if one has a magic hat to bury ones face into....And golden plates...Hmmm maybe thats where them UFO's come from....When they magically vanished off the face of the planet...Where did that smith guy find them again...in a pot at the end of a rainbow....Or was it a yellow brick road...? Of course that truly is the whole problem here,holding ones empty religion above God Himself,in the end all you get is "your" empty religion,with no room for God.
Rick I really need to apologize,fr in all the years I have known you,read your posts on all sorts of places,from Christian open forums,to LDS sites...and then have seen first hand the arrogance,and down rite vulgar attitudes that have posted in reply...Well My friend the Lord has blessed you with much more empathy for the lost than I shall ever know...So I believe it is safe to say the right person chosen for the task at hand has been made....May the Lord ocntinue to Bless you with this task,and may you never fail,as I did with my total reply in this post. PSYCHO
sometimes we find it difficult to accept what we dont understand. you cant expect perfect people to come from any religion, and judgement on the believers as a whole is incorrect. please know that i am a latter day saint, and following christs teachings is as close to my soul as any other decent christian. im sorry some have been on the ugly side of a defensive mormon. to question, with desire to understand does not make you anti. to question with desire to antagonize, however, will.
I have recently returned from my mission and have on numerous occasion been contacted via telephone by this Andrew Price and found him to be perhaps one of the most repulsive men I have ever come in contact with not because of his attacks on the church, which were usually as poorly fabricated as the "loser god" guy's, but more so because of his overall demeanor. I have never met anyone, faithful Latter Day Saint or Anti-Mormon who was simply so overbearing and so horrifically opinionated concerning misinformation. As a full time missionary I would have been more than happy to have answered his or anyone else's questions concerning our beliefs however for any Christian to attack or molest or verbally abuse another Christians beliefs, morals, values, and or doctrines is simply contradicting that which they profess to have believe in. Now I have read my scriptures many times and never have I discovered the mortal Messiah to have outwardly accused any persons of going to hell for their practices. He simply directed them as to what was correct and let them make the choice. Agency was never tampered with. So for all the Andrew Prices out there I would say that perhaps your idea of teaching Mormons that truth has been misguided in that you do not teach but you force. You don't allow choice you make what you believe to be the right choice for others. Perhaps you should examine your New Testament more fully and see who's teaching techniques you have inherited.
Wow! This is...I'm speechless. Just as Jordan, I have also just returned from serving as a missionary for the LDS church. I personally never had any communication with Andrew Price, and I'm grateful for that. I did however come across several people that fit the preaching style of Andrew Price. I will be bold enough to say, yes, it was irritating! However, I had to understand everyone has their agency and opinions. Although it was tempting at times to argue with these individuals, I never did. If I would have argued, could I still call myself a Christian? No. As for this individual that goes by Bills, I am embarrassed by his inability to communicate in a civilized manner. I apologize for his remarks and ask you not to take his trash talk seriously. It is worth nothing, he clearly has forgotten one of the most important principles the Saviour taught, which is to love our neighbours as much as we love ourselves. Please don't judge the church from this poor example.
Yes, as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I don't agree with everything most other Christian churches believe. I do believe in some things others believe, but not all things. However, ALL churches have good truthful teachings within them. Therefore, I will never bash with any other faith that I perhaps don't see eye to eye with. I only wish others would understand this principle and follow it as well. As human beings we are trying our best to follow the commandments of God (or our religious teachings) and that is all that matters. There are several interpretations of the scriptures, but generally all Christians believe in Jesus Christ. He is the son of God, and our personal Saviour. There is no debate, that is truth, that is what matters.
As for biblical evidences of many of the Mormon doctrines that are under attack, I may be able to show you evidences and clarify our belief for you. However, I am choosing not to because of the persecution I would receive for stating our beliefs. It isn't worth arguing over the internet, therefore I will not start something that may end up in a disaster and more hatred looming around because of something that may have been said. I may sound cowardly, but please understand why I have chosen this route.
Michael said If I would have argued, could I still call myself a Christian? No Michael thats not true, Paul and Jesus and the word of God tells us to contend for the faith. We see many accounts of God and people of God debating and talking, God himself says, come let us reason together.
Michael said However, ALL churches have good truthful teachings within them.
While that is true, the truth they teach either comes from the Bible or the truth they teach does not save. Example, They teach do not murder, thats in the Bible, But that does not teach me about God, or Church's teach that a homosexual lifestyle is wrong, but that truth does not save. While these churchs teach some truth, they also teach lies that will lead us to eternal death.
Michael said
Therefore, I will never bash with any other faith that I perhaps don't see eye to eye with. I only wish others would understand this principle and follow it as well.
Their are many places in the Bible where Jesus or Paul or others teach that they people or church's are wrong and tell them as much, so you could argue that you wish other would follow that biblical principal instead.
Michael said
As human beings we are trying our best to follow the commandments of God (or our religious teachings) and that is all that matters.
That is not all that matters, In the Bible it tells us Adam and Eve tried to cover their own sins, God said that is not good enough. The Bible teaches that following the laws/commandments will not and cannot save us, so your are sadly wrong.
Michael said There are several interpretations of the scriptures, but generally all Christians believe in Jesus Christ. He is the son of God, and our personal Saviour. There is no debate, that is truth, that is what matters.
Mormons are not Christians, They teach a different Gospel and a different Jesus. Just because you use the same name does not make it the same person.
Michael said
As for biblical evidences of many of the Mormon doctrines that are under attack, I may be able to show you evidences and clarify our belief for you. However, I am choosing not to because of the persecution I would receive for stating our beliefs.
It is more a matter of you cannot, not that you do not want to. Show me where I persecuted LDS for showing me evidence. I can show you quotes from Past LDS presidents, Prophets and your own scripture and the Bible that tell you to take a stand and to turn sinners from the error of their way. So for you to say earlier that you wish people would follow biblical principles but yet you show here you will not simply says your either lying or cannot do it, No matter how you word it or try to justify why you wont it goes against the Bible and LDS teachings.
Michael said
It isn't worth arguing over the internet, therefore I will not start something that may end up in a disaster and more hatred looming around because of something that may have been said. I may sound cowardly, but please understand why I have chosen this route.
Again, it's a matter of you simply cannot and sadly do not understand your Scriptures and what your prophets have taught. I can provided evidence.
I had a personal problem with Andrew Price today (3-25-10) and had no problem with the man until I walk away and he starts yelling that I'm in a cult. I turn back to talk to him and aslk him not to yell when I leave because I have been very respectfull. So I get almost to my car and he starts yelling again. For a man on a university campus I found him to be nothing more than a problem starter. If you feel so powerfully about your faith why not promote that instead of trying to discredit another. Why do people think that because they disagree with a persons faith that harasment is the answer. Christ never did. The biible teaches against it so I don't understand. Love thy neighbor as thyself for me doesnt translate into creating problems and harasing people of other faiths. He told me I was in a cult for being mormon. the dictionary states that a cult is "a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies". the doctionary says that all religions are cults. Why is he focused on the mormon church. If its not his church its wrong so why not bother others. I'm not impressed
So I'm also a recently returned missionary and I had a couple run ins with Andrew the real problem with him is he tries to tear down peoples faith. Yes it is true there is truth in almost every religion because God has given us all the light and knowledge we are ready to receive and when we are ready for more we will have it given to us. Yet there are things which are necessary for Salvation such as baptism (or being born) of the water and of the spirit. Now i believe that all men may be inspired to teach truth but in order to have these ordinances done they have to be done by someone with authority. Now it really does not matter if you think we are right or wrong about having authority because consider this out of all the Christian religions only two can claim that authority those two being us the mormons and the catholics because sorry when it comes down to it you can't get Gods authority by going to school and getting a degree signed by a man saying you have that authority. It can only come from God. It really bugs me when people say I'm not a Christian I'm sorry but who are you to tell me what God I believe in or that the Jesus Christ who died for my sins is a fake Jesus. My Jesus is the one who suffered in the Garden and on the Cross and who is always there for me and comforts me . Now if thats not your Jesus thats your problem not mine but I'm pretty sure since we have the same Heavenly Father that we have the same Redeemer. Now for everyone who brings up the dumb faith vs. works let me say something Paul writes this now Paul was a Disciple of Christ but that does not make him perfect James say the exact opposite thing when he says faith without works is dead now if your going to take everything Paul says as truth then all the Women need to keep their mouths shut in church and its better to be single then married (which by the way we know is not true because Gods first commandment was to multiply and replenish the earth and you can't do that without sinning unless your married) So if God is as merciful as you say he is and believe he is am I really not going to be able to go home to him in heaven because I tried to do his will by my works? I don't remember the Lord giving any stories about someone getting cast off because they were trying to hard to be good. But in the end lets keep in mind it is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ after all we can do that saves us. He can left you up to himself no matter where you are but you have to make the choice to let him because he will not force anyone into Heaven
Hello John,
Ok lets see here, You said who are we to tell you you have the wrong Jesus and do not worship the same one as I/we Christians do? Well I could put that on you and the Mormons and say, JS claimed it was God who told him I am wrong, and your BoM tells me that their are only two churchs, The true church and the church of the devil. So your beliefe says to me what I say to you. Let me add to that, In the Bible the apostle Paul says that anyone who has another Gospel will be damned and is wrong, Gal 1:8-9. Mormonism is another gospel. Then if you recall, Jesus told the religious leaders they were in error of scripture and wrong about a lot of things. So if according to Jesus He can tell people they are in error of scripture than I guess I can also.
Now you go onto say, We must be baptized to be saved, I did a topic on that, we do not need to be baptized to be saved, but that is a topic that has been covered so go check that out, no point in re posting it here. You claim we need priesthood authority to do things and it is only mormons and Catholics that have this authority. Show me chapter and verse in the bible where Jesus, or any apostle ever says, Here I pass onto you priesthood authority to do these things. You cannot because it's not true, Jesus said so and make disciples of all men and preach the gospel. You said their is some truth in all religions, A religion that has truth means nothing, If that truth is not from the Bible and that truth is not Jesus lived and died for us then it means nothing. Many religions claim it is wrong to steal, or it is wrong to lie, or it is wrong to murder, Those are truths, yet they cannot save. Yet I know you will say, I have Jesus so I am a christian and am saved. The problem is, if your jesus is not the Jesus in the Bible then you have a false jesus. The jesus you worship is not the Jesus of the Bible. The jesus you worship is the spirit brother to Lucifer, thats not taught in the Bible. That is only one major difference between us. When you bring up the issue of works, I covered that also in a topic. Go check it out.
I find the exchange offered within these blogs very interesting. If anything, the desire from LDS members to offer comment makes me believe that they feel they have to justify themselves. I believe in prayer as main conveyance of spiritual answers NOT the internet. Loser God....sounds very American in phraseology. Not sure it would inspire me to be associated with the LDS church....and I am NOT anti, just not impressed!
my name is johnathan, I am a member of the LDS church. I will say this. there is a big difference between being mormon and being LDS. just as there are red necks and people from the south.
as a member I can say that as an article of faith we believe that all men have the right to worship God according to the dictates of his hart. and to let them worship how and what they may.
that being said it is very sad to see our members act in such a way as to voice themselves in such a way that it detracts from the Christlike nature we should all be striving to have.
I did find this site though, trying to look up andrew price. He contacted me while i was serving a mission for the church and would try and "out reach" to me as he had so many others. I can say though through the hours I've spent with him on the phone, the description of what is posted sounds quite accurate.
I have met other evangelicals of other faiths, and can say that many of them like many in every faith are seeking for truth and a stronger connection with our Heavenly Father. and are very nice and respective people. to all of you, thank you for remembering why we are all striving to be closer to our Heavenly Father, and emulating a Christlike nature. the world needs more of that.
rick b if you want scriptures about priesthood, it states a lot about it in Leviticus, 1 Samuel, matt mark luke and john, hebrews, acts and 1st corinthians
Anon,
What was the point you were trying to make when you said, If I want scriptures about the priesthood?
I have read the Bible many times, I figure somewhere around 12 or more times for the OT and 20 or more times with the NT.
The Mormon priesthood and the teaching of the priesthood in the OT do not agree and do contradict each other, so I dont get your point.
how does what the bible state about the priesthood contradict the mormon religion?
setting that aside, you stated that it wasn't needed and wasn't doctrinal, but the bible states that it is.
you may have read the bible a lot, but I think your comprehension of it is lacking a bit.
Anonymous said...
how does what the bible state about the priesthood contradict the mormon religion?
Show me The Mormon Priesthood and How it functions, Then show me from the Bible where they did the same exact things.
Only One priest, The High priest was the only one allowed in the Temple, Is that done in Mormonism? No it's not.
Real Priests in the OT are Jewish in Nature, they cannot be gentiles.
Are all the Mormon PRIESTHOOD holders in Mormonism Jew's? I doubt it.
JS said No man can see God and live, With out the priesthood. But when He (JS) had is first of Nine, First visions, he did not have that priesthood. So how could he see God?
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