.
De·cep·tion
Pronunciation: di-'sep-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : an act of deceiving
2 : something that deceives : DECEIT
Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
deception
1: a misleading falsehood [syn: misrepresentation, deceit] 2: the act of deceiving [syn: deceit, dissembling, dissimulation] 3: an illusory feat; considered magical by naive observers [syn: magic trick, conjuring trick, trick, magic, legerdemain, conjuration, illusion]
Now the Main part of the issue of Deception I want to focus on is this:
1: a misleading falsehood [syn: misrepresentation, deceit].
In my years of sharing the Gospel with Mormons, I have noticed way to often, this Use of misleading falsehood. What I mean by, I notice this, Is this. I will talk with Mormon Missionary's for example, And I will ask them, What do you think or believe about the Bible. They will say, We(I) believe the Bible to be the word of God.
They simply stop short, But I know the Articles of faith, I point out that According to Articles of faith number 8.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
Notice, that when I ask the Mormons what they think/believe about the Bible, they seem to forget the words, as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
So simply by saying, We Believe the Bible to be the Word of God, and leaving off the rest is a form of Deception. This is allowing the LDS member to lead people to believe something that even the LDS do not believe. I notice the LDS also do this when I ask, who do you believe Jesus is, Or what do you believe About Jesus.
The Mormons will tell me they believe Jesus is the son of God. The Problem I have with this is, First off those of us who are Bible believing Christians, Believe in the Trinity and One God only. But when Mormons say they believe Jesus is the Son of God, many Christians would think the LDS are saying they believe in the Trinity and one God only. But I know as well as the LDS members that they believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers who were either Created or were once men first, This depends on which view you hold.
Either way, this again is a form of deception. I am sure some LDS members will say that Christians will or due use Deception, This may be true? But if it is I honestly am not aware of it, and I don't use deception. I feel if the LDS really do have the true Gospel, then they should have no use for lying and deception. But if they need to do that, then they really should question if they are following a true beliefs or a lie.
If LDS have examples of Christians Doing this, please post them, I am very opposed to anyone having to lie or deceive to spread the gospel. I also am posting this topic, because I want Christians to be aware of this LDS tactic and point it out when it happens. And I want the LDS to be aware of this, just in case they do this and in all honesty they never realized they were doing it.
13 comments:
Hello Devin, Well Let me start by pointing out you said/asked this: I hope Rick is not inferringMissionaries are “misleading/ falsehood”. No I was not inferring that, That WAS what I was saying they were or are doing. I am not saying every single MM's does this, But I am saying many do. I have witnessed it and so have others.
Yes you are correct, they do give up two years of there lives, But I know many Christians who give up more than two years of there lives, They give up there enteir life to go live in third world countries to follow and serve Christ. Lets be honest here, Just because someone gives up some time in their life, does this mean they cannot possible ever lie again? Now I see this happining with the MM's, but does this mean they are taught to do this? I dont know, I do know if they are, they would never admit it.
Even the best of people can and do lie. You later go on to say Now I have talked with many Christians and they are good people, but many seemed unsure of their belief of the basic doctrine non LDS Christianity. I always wondered why? I had other friends that held strong to their faith much like Rick and I respect that very much. Then I understood why when I came across this Information.
I want to point out a few things on what you said, First off lets look to the Word of God. Jeremiah say's Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Mar 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Now You said, Christians are Good people, It's more like people do good thigs, but as the verses state no one is good.
Then you asked the question, I wonder why people seem unsure of their beliefes, but you understood after reading the information you provide.
Honestly, I dont understand how you can understand how people can be unsure of there beliefes or faith, simply by looking at a poll that tells us people dont believe certain things. To me this does not answer any questions. I will share my thoughts as to why people dont believe.
First off, many people have this wrong beliefe or idea of, I live in the United States, therefore that makes me a Christian. Or I believe the Bible, therefore I must be a Christian. Well I hate to tell you, but simple beliefe in something does not make it true. I could believe will all the faith I could muster, That if I have a million dollers in the bank it must be true.
Devin, You could believe, you have been taught by the Gracie's, you know some of what they know, you have been taught by others, You start to think, I know what I am doing, therefore I will take on Rickson Gracie, You believe with all your heart your gonna win, Do you really think you will, Yes you do, But the fact will be clear after the match. Hope this help you better understand.
Many people believe they have a Bible in there house that makes them a Christian, Not so. the Bible tells us Romans 10:14-16
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has
believed our report?" 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the
word of God.
Many people Do not believe because they have not heard, But many people who have heard, also do not believe. You give a breakdown of many people who do not believe, When asked if Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, over 50% of pastors said "no." To the question "Was Jesus the Son of God?," over 80% of ministers replied "no." Is the Bible the inspired word of God? Over 80 percent said "No." Over 36% responded that they did not believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Among 7,441 Protestant pastors. Asked if they believed that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God: 87% of Methodists said NO. 95% of Episcopalians said NO. 82% of Presbyterians said NO. 67% of American Baptists said N0. (Pulpit Helps, December 1987)
Honestly these findings do not surprise me one bit. Even the Bible says, John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Luke 13
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the 14
way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because
narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Luke 21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the 22
kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many
will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your 23
name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23
And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
Even these verse say, Not everyone knows God, even though they think they do. And there is only one way into heaven, Many people think they can enter heaven through various religions, but that is not the case. You then went on to Quote all these various denominations and point out how they all differ in beliefe. Like I said in my other Topic, denominations are not of God or found in the Bible, But many people would and do argue, that the RLDS, FLDS and other splinter groups of Mormons are mearly just LDS denominations. They would say about these groups, they also claim to believe, read and follow the 4 standerd works. Does this make these groups believers, even though LDS would say, these groups dont really believe the 4 standerd works?
Simply saying we or I follow a certain denomination means what? Not much to me anyway.
Let me end with this, You said Bottom-line is all faiths have its positives and negatives and what we hope and pray is do our best to act Christ like and follow his example through out our lives, I know a lot of good Christians that are working hard in their churches, online to change what has happened in todays Christianity.
A religion can have all the postive stuff it wants, Does postive equeal truth? No it does not. Remember the verses above I quoted. Not every one who says LORD, LORD, and Jesus is the only way. Rick b
Devin, Thanks for posting. But your long reply really does not answer my question about LDS using Decption.
As to the Idea of me starting another Blog to call out pastor, Well I dont see that happining, I did start a 2nd blog, look in my profile. But as the bible teaches, we are a body, their are members of the Body of Christ who are called to confront the false pastors, and as I stated I have done it before and will again. Rick b
Devin Said:
I want to answer questions about the LDS Faith, I am just wondering why you are not willing to do what Paul would do and stand up to false teachings and not hide behind a statement like other are called to do it , because that approch is not working.
Then Devin said It this your idea of "a body, their are members of the Body of Christ"? They do fall under the heading of Christian and get to fellowship with other christians , while misleading others?
Devin, First off, I cannot go in person and chase every single person, track them down like a dog and ask them, What do you believe, then if it appers to be false openly rebuke them, Not even Jesus or the apostles did this as I stated before. Then There are people who talk with these false pastors and write books, blogs, vidoes ect for information about them.
I am called to the Mormons, You guys call yourselves Christians and your not, So again if I follow your logic and confront people who claim to be christians but teach false lies, then by talking with mormons I am doing as you say.
Then Devin, some big name person like benny hinn, If you honestly think some little guy like me could rebuke him your crazy, The national media cannot even get a minute to talk to him. That would be like me trying to personnal talk with the president of the Mormon Church and tell him he is lying. You honestly think he would talk, your crazy.
Please stop wasting my time with barna poles, I am not going to shut down my blog and leave because you feel I should confront a pastor and not a mormon. I told you before, I have rebuked pastors to there faces for things they teach that are false, so again I do also do what you claim I should do. I have confronted both family, friends, co-workers and people I never met. Now that I have told you that before, I think it is time to move on.
I honestly believe the Devil hates me sharing the truth with the LDS and he is using you to try and tell me to stop, but that wont happen.
Then Devin, you said about Christians • Fifty percent of born again Christians contend that a person can earn salvation based upon good works ..
• do not think God is the all-knowing, all-powerful Creator and still rules today.
• do not think Salvation is a gift of God and cannot be earned.
• do not think Christians have a responsibility to share their faith in Christ.
• do not think the Bible is accurate in all its teachings
Then about these things you pointed out about Christians, Well I dont know what the percent is, but mormons believe this stuff also. so whats your point? As to the list of things you said christians believe and I said mormons believe, I suspect you will say that is not true. but those things are off topic to this post and I have either covered them in posts or will cover them.
I post about once a week, so they will be coming up at some point in time. Rick b
Devin,
Thank you for your input on this blog. Why do you keep telling Rick to do what he is not called to do?
Just because people say they are Christians does not make it so. Mormons say they are Christians, yet they do not believe in the basic tenants of the Christian faith. For example, we believe in the trinity - 3 persons, one God - the cross as the place where redemption takes place, etc. So many differences there are too many to list here. Rick has covered several of them here. You are trying to take Rick's attention off of his calling to Mormonism and their unbiblical beliefs and put it on others who say they are Christians and are not. The Barna Poles tell us that there are a lot of peaple who say they are Christians but obviously are not. It also tells us that we are in the last days:
2Ti 3:1-5 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
2Ti 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
The Lord knows those who are His. and those who are lukewarm, not holding fast to the truth.
Devin, Email the reply you posted with all your questions to my email adress. This blog is not the place for those. I know you feel your simply answering my question, but really your not. 2 believers who cannot agree on a scripture is not the same as giving examples of people using lies and or deception, If this was the case, then the LDS are lying to each other, as we both know there are cases where the LDS cannot agree among themselves about certain Scripture.
And I guess to clarify. If you give me an example of a believer doing this. I am looking for examples of Christians doing this to the LDS. An example would be, Show me a book or video where a Christian blatintly twists something the LDS teach or said.
I know there are plenty of LDS quick to accuse Christians of twisting things. As to the way you reply, I agree, you are correct, there are so called Christians that lie cheat and steal, But the Bible warns us of these people. As to your question about different Demnonations. I did a post on that, that might answer some of your questions.
Lastly, I am really getting busy at work, I work in a resturant and the holidays are killer. I will reply to you as I can, but my replys to LDS posters replying to questions here or research for my next topic will take priorty until the new year is here.
Rick b
Rick,
Below are two Christians that have a Ministry. They have used deception to misled Lds Christians and Historical Christians.
Bill Schnoebelen-became a Fundamentalist Christian in 1984after reading a Jack Chick tract see (www.withoneaccord.org)
Mr, Schnoebelen claims to have studied four different traditions within Wicca, and became a "high priest" in each of them:
Alexandria Wicca
Druidic Craft of the Wise (Actually Druidism is not a part of Wicca)
Church of All Worlds
Church and School of Wicca
To reach such a high position in even one tradition is a major task, typically taking many years of practice.
Referring to other books by Bill Schnoebelen, an Amazon book reviewer wrote: "This from a man who supposedly, in one lifetime, has been A Catholic Priest, a high degree Mason, A Wiccan High Priest, Hard-core (baby sacrificing) Satanist, a Mormon, 10 AND an evangelical Christian; in less than 50 years." (The reviewer missed Schnoebelen alleged consecration as a bishop in the Gnostic Church).
Schnoebelen wrote an article in 2001-AUG concerning Dungeons and Dragons™ and other fantasy role playing games. 11,12 In the former essay, he states that he was a "witch high priest (Alexandrian tradition) during the period 1973-84." In the latter essay, he writes: "When D&D started, [1973] you could perhaps find four or five books on Wicca in print." This shows his lack of knowledge of Wicca. G.B. Gardner, alone had four books on Wicca published before 1960: "Goddess Arrives" (1948); "High Magick's Aid" (written 1946; published 1949); "Witchcraft Today" (1954); "Meaning of Witchcraft" (1959).
Edward L. King analyzed the lifetime accomplishments of Bill Schnoebelen (www.masonicinfo.com/schnoebelen.htm.) King's essay on his Masonic information web site shows that Schnoebelen has claimed to have risen to high positions of power within many religious and spiritual groups.
King point's out correctly Schnoebelen is either a hoax, or an individual who has become a senior member of the power structure of a bewildering array of religious and spiritual groups -- perhaps more than anyone else in history. We are inclined to suspect the former.
but the Tanners have said he and Pastor Ed Decker (www.saintsalive.com) and ( http://c.faculty.umkc.edu/cowande/ccp/decker.htm) was untruthful and using deception in presting what we the Lds truly belieive.
The Tanners published two pamphlets ("The Lucifer-God Doctrine" and "Problems in Godmaker II") and several newletter articles (Issues: #67--April 1988; #69--September 1988; #75--July 1990; #76--November 1990; #84--April 1993) in which they counter certain assertions and sharply disapprove of the shady tactics used by Ed Decker in his attacks against the LDS faith. Here are a sampling of what the Tanners have said:
"Decker and Schnoebelen have publicly made some incredible and unsupported claims concerning Mormonism."(#67--April 1988, p. 18)
"All of the work about Mormonism and witchcraft which Ed Decker has published for William Schnoebelen and that found in the 1987 printing of 'Mormonism Temple of Doom' is seriously flawed. . . .Even worse than this, however, is the deliberate attempt to misdirect us from the truth."(ibid. p.25)
"Nevertheless, we sincerely believe that the type of excesses which we have pointed out in 'The Lucifer-God Doctrine' can have a devastating effect on thousands of people. We have sought God's help about the matter and have concluded that strong action is necessary to prevent the spread of erroneous information that could undermine people's trust in material published on Mormonism and Christianity. . . .We believe that it would be an injustice to keep silent any longer. . .we believe their [(Decker, Schnoebelen, Spencer)] charges are without foundation in fact."(ibid.)
"Although it is not specifically mentioned in the CRI statement, both Decker's and Schnoebelen's work on Freemasonry is seriously marred by the inclusion of erroneous material on the subject."(#69--September 1988, p.12)
"Mr. Decker had made some very exaggerated claims in his newsletter. Furthermore, we maintained that a member of his staff, William Schnoebelen, also misrepresented the facts in a booklet he coauthored with James Spencer. This pamphlet is entitled, Mormonism's Temple of Doom."(#75--July 1990, p.17)
"In a letter to us dated Sept. 18, 1988, Ed Decker promised that the booklet would be modified to conform to Walter Martin's criticism. . . .To our surprise, however, when we obtained the new printing, we could not find any changes regarding the important matters which had been brought to their attention by CRI."(ibid.)
"Since Walter Martin has passed away, we will probably never know exactly what transpired between him and the three individuals with whom we disagreed- Decker, Schnoebelen and Spencer. We do know, however, that they completely ignored the criticism found in Martin's official CRI statement and at least one of the items which Martin had specifically pointed out to them."(ibid.)
"While there was a great deal of talk about submitting to CRI, there seems to have been no action to fit the rhetoric. It would appear that these men originally went to Walter Martin because they felt he would come down heavily on their side of the issue and take us to task. When CRI's final conclusions agreed with ours, they simply ignored the criticism and refused to submit as they had promised."(ibid.)
"One would think that after the devastating evidence we printed in The Lucifer-God Doctrine, Ed Decker would be more careful in his public statements concerning Mormonism. Instead, however, he seems to have thrown caution to the wind. On the radio program, The Bible Answer Man, May 15, 1990, Mr. Decker gave a revealing demonstration of his ability to fabricate evidence to support his own opinions. "
"...We were immediately suspicious of Mr. Decker's statements concerning Apostle Ballard's speech. The Mormon leaders are always very careful not to say anything that would give comfort to their critics. To make such an admission at a BYU Devotional would be like giving gun powder to the enemy. At any rate, H. Michael Marquardt has provided us with an audio tape of the speech and we checked it out carefully to see if it contained the comments Ed Decker attributed to Apostle Ballard. Unfortunately for Mr. Decker's credibility, we were unable to find anything concerning
The God Makers causing a loss of membership in Ballard's speech or even anything concerning the church losing 3,000,000 prospective converts. Instead, Apostle Ballard boasted that: 'Worldwide church membership has now increased to more than 7,000,000.... The day of 50 to 60 thousand full-time missionaries is not far off.' The speech does have one brief mention of The God Makers, but it is only a passing reference to the fact that the church has always had enemies. . . .It was pointed out to us that this erroneous information concerning Apostle Ballard's speech was also printed in Ed Decker's Saints Alive in Jesus Newsletter in January 1990. In this issue we find the following:
'Elder M. Russell Ballard spoke at BYU according to The Provo Herald of 11/14/89. He announced that the Church had... 'more than 7 million members...' Viewers of THE GOD MAKERS will recall an LDS graph in the early part of the film which predicted that the church would hit 10 million by 1990.
Ballard lamented that the church did not meet that membership goal[.] He laid the blame for the failure at the feet of the opposition and specifically blamed the film, THE GOD MAKERS.... In this decade, the church grew from 4.4 million to 7.0 million. However we praise God that those figures reflect a 3 million member shortfall. We have been led to believe that the spiritual offensive spearheaded by THE GOD MAKERS has cut their planned gains by more than 50%!'
"The reader will notice that Ed Decker attributed this information to the Nov. 14, 1989, issue of The Provo Herald. This newspaper, like the tape of the address, has absolutely nothing in it that supports the claim that "Ballard lamented that the church did not meet that membership goal," and raises still another problem. The reader is referred to "an LDS graph in the early part of the film [The God Makers] which predicted that the church would hit 10 million by 1990." When we examined a video of The God Makers, we found a graph, but it did not have the projected church growth for 1990. . . .This graph, however, did not support Mr. Decker's conclusion. Instead of 10,000,000 members, the church's graph predicted a growth of only 6,491,200 by 1990. Since the church's magazine, The Ensign, listed 7,300,000 members for the last day of 1989, it would appear that church growth had actually exceeded the projection by 808,800."(ibid., p.18)
"All of the evidence combined to disprove the Ballard story, and Ed Decker and William Schnoebelen finally admitted it was erroneous (see Saints Alive In Jesus Newsletter July 1990)"(#76--November 1990, p.14)
"Although we do not know what was going on in Mr. Decker's mind, it is obvious that the truth has been completely distorted. . . .Now that Ed Decker's ability to make up stories has been clearly demonstrated, it raises serious questions concerning many of his sensational claims.
On The Bible Answer Man program, May 15, 1990, Ed Decker was asked: 'Have you experienced someone actually trying to kill you or is this just sensationalism?'
In response to that question, Decker replied that it had nothing to do with sensationalism but, in fact, really occurred: '...it comes with the territory and not very often or highly successful, thank God... we just take it with a grain of salt... I was poisoned in Scotland... it comes with the territory and [is] something you have to learn to live with.' . . .A man who was with Ed Decker at the time of the alleged poisoning has called us from Scotland and expressed his disbelief in Decker's story. Another man has been seriously investigating this matter and claims to have evidence that the whole story was hatched up. The charge that Mr. Decker has been making up sensational stories to achieve both notoriety and contributions is very serious indeed. . . ."
"...Ed Decker has created a great deal of fear in the hearts of many people with his stories. Many Christians are afraid to come to Utah for fear they might lose their lives. We recently received a very strange call from Mr. Decker in which he claimed he had received an anonymous call from a man who told him he was part of an assassination team that received directions from a member of the First Presidency in the Mormon Church. . . .Although we can not prove it, we strongly suspect that this entire story, like the story concerning Apostle Ballard, was a figment of Ed Decker's fertile imagination. In the book, The Lucifer-God Doctrine, we present a great deal of evidence to show the unreliability of the work on the Mormon temple ceremony which has been published by Ed Decker, William Schnoebelen and James Spencer. Until the objections we have raised in this book have been specifically answered, no one should be deceived into believing that their work has been vindicated."(#75--July 1990, p.19)
"Richard D. Baer... says the follow-up to the 1983 movie... misses the mark. Baer says 'God-Makers II' is sensational and dwells on the bizarre. . . .Ed has a penchant to sensationalize, embellish on facts and center on bizarre issues to try to shock people,' Baer says. 'This film will so turn Mormons off it will be difficult to even talk to them."(The Sacramento Union, Dec. 26, 1992; as quoted by the Tanners in #84--April 1993, p. 1)
"In discussing the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, the narrator (Ed Decker) asserted: 'There is strong evidence that in 1824 Joseph Smith actually had to dig up the body of his dead brother Alvin and bring part of that body with him to the Hill Cumorah in order to gain access to the gold plates on which were written the Book of Mormon.' . .The truth of the matter, however, is that there is absolutely no evidence to support such an accusation. The idea that Joseph Smith would consider digging up his brother to obtain the plates actually came from the mind of document forger Mark Hofmann and was set forth by him in his infamous 'Salamander letter.'"(ibid., pp. 1-2)
"Ed Decker and others who have brought accusations of immorality against President Gordon B. Hinckley claim that they have hard evidence to support the charges. Our examination of that evidence, however, raises many questions with regard to its validity. While we cannot say with absolute certainty that there is no truth in the accusations, on the basis of the evidence that we have examined, we find the charges difficult to accept. In fact, we find it hard to believe that they would be made public without some confirming evidence from more reliable sources. . . .We are deeply concerned about such serious charges being made on evidence that seems questionable. . . .A careful examination of Van Dam's interview raises questions regarding his motive, reliability and competency. . . .It seems very hard to believe. . .To those who are familiar with Mormonism, this is a preposterous statement. . "
"...Since it is highly unlikely that any such incident could have occurred, a shadow of doubt is cast on the rest of Charles Van Dam's statements concerning Gordon B. Hinckley. . . .In the video interview, Charles Van Dam showed some signs of confusion in telling his story. . . .seems hard to believe. . . .This does not fit well with the rest of Van Dam's story. . . .One very important omission in The Godmakers II is that it never gives any indication of when these sordid affairs were supposed to have taken place. . . .Also we doubt the propriety of exposing sins that are alleged to have happened so many years ago on such unsubstantiated accusations. . . .This, of course, makes her claim more difficult to believe. . . .Actually, the truth of the matter is that the news media felt that the story was not credible. . . .The case against President Hinckley seems to be based on some very questionable statements. Since there is no hard evidence to support the accusations, we would advise all those working with Mormons to refrain from disseminating the story. . . .We seriously question whether Christians should be involved in disseminating unsupported charges of immorality."(ibid., pp. 3-4)
Take care,
Devin
PROBLEMS IN THE GODMAKERS II
BY JERALD AND SANDRA TANNER
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/3750/GodmakerII.html
Utah Lighthouse
http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no67.htm
Hello Devin,
Thank you for giving an example.
First off, to the guy, (Bill Schnoebelen). I recall hearing about him shortly after giving my life to Christ. But in this case, it is just like I said, the Bible teaches their will be false prophets and teachers, and some simply want to make money at this stuff.
As to Ed Decker, I have haerd him speak, via raido, years ago. Many of his approaches I do not endore, I dont read or watch things by him.
One thing I dont due is, talk about things I cannot get into, like the Temple for example. If I were to speak on the temple, really what good would it do.
I cannot enter the temple, so what could I say about it. But as to Ed Decker using Lies, glad you gave an example, but does this mean LDS are perfect and never do this? Nope, they have been known to lie and use decit also, as I stated in my example. Thanks for the post. Rick b
Rick,
I hope all is well
It seems, that when something is shared with you by me and backed up by well researched facts. In this case by the Tanners(Utah Lighthouse Ministry )
who state Mr. Decker was using deception and not based only with Temple isssues. Please re-read-He was lying and is a pastor that sites on Mormonism uses as refrences as truth. I understand it is easier to ignore the "LDS points" and embrace Ed because he is a brother however I feel it is not that easy.
Speaking the truth demands nothing less. Too often, however, modern Christian believers tend toward one of two poles: either forsaking truth (or not defending it) for the sake of peace, or having no regard for peace out of zeal for truth. A biblically balanced Christian will have a high esteem for both truth and peace.
But truth takes priority. It did for Paul. He told Timothy to call out those and teach with the force of command those who were drifting into false doctrine (1 Timothy 1:3-4). Then he states that the goal of such teaching is love. "Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith" (1 Timothy 1:5). First comes doctrine--truth--then comes love.
So- as you are reaching out to us LDS you should reach out to Ed Decker and teach where he is false and truthful.(the Bible)
take care,
Devin
Devin said I understand it is easier to ignore the "LDS points" and embrace Ed because he is a brother however I feel it is not that easy.
I dont understand your point here?
I dont recall telling you, I embrace Ed Decker as a brother and ignore you, or your facts.
I said, I do not use any thing by Ed Decker, and I dont agree with much of his stuff. How is this ignoring your facts and embracing Ed Decker?
Also the fact you showed me an EX mormon who lies proves what? I said all along, this kinda stuff happens and is possible, I simply was not aware of anyone who did it.
Then what does this mean for the LDS? Does this mean the LDS who do lie and use Deception are now some how justifed in this matter? Does this mean they really don't lie?
As a side note, could you please resend your Schools link or simply post it here, the school you fight at, I lost it, or accidently erased it, but I thought your school looked really good. Does your teacher or your school sell traing video's? Thanks, Rick b
Rick,
My point Since ED misrepsepents the truth about the LDS Faith as a Christian you should take a stand aginst him on your blog at the very least. I feel there are some good areas to debate based on differences between the views you may have with the LDS view.
However that is different then how Pastor Decker has presented them. as his former associate Dick Baer said that, "Ed has a penchant to sensationalize, embellish on facts and center on bizarre issues to try to shock people."(February 25th 1993, Salt Lake Tribune). Jerald and Sandra Tanner believe his writings grossly misrepresent LDS belifs in different areas, and thereby dilute truth and is the resposibiltiby of Christians to bring that to light.
Devin
Devin, I know we will not fully agree, But my blog is about mormonism, not Christians or people like Ed Decker. If you ever read or have read every topic I have ever written and will write, I never bring up nor will I bring up Ed Decker. If Someone asks I will tell them about how I feel. Rick b
Rick,
It is your blog, but speaking as an LDS member if you hope to have a seious dilog and hope someone like myself would listen to your message you would be willing to walk the talk you have written on this board,
I wish you the best in life ,
Devin
The final turnoff for me-Pastor Decker teaches about "mormonism" to christians and may visit this blog witout asking you about him and asume you support what he teaches based on the subject matter. "you took a don't ask do not tell policy"
Devin, I have no problem with (Causing trouble) (Rocking the boat) or any other expression you choose to use.
What am I going to do, post a little letter saying, I dont endorse Ed Decker? I could simply do that, but then it will simply get buired into the arcives and many will never see it. Then someone could come along, give me a list of 100 people and stating these guys share with LDS but they all use lies and decption.
I dont have time to look into every claim and get side tracked from my blog looking into, is this person a liar etc.
Then, even thought I dont plan on a post saying I dont endorse Ed Decker, I dont feel LDS will say, well rick never mentions Ed Decker as being a liar, so I guess despite all the evidence he provides, saying my beliefe is a false beliefe I will simply assume rick has no clue because he does not mention Ed Decker as being a false hertic.
The LDS will notice, I never quote from him or mention him or his stuff, that I believe will speak to them more than if I mention I dont endore him.
I simply view this as another means to try and side track me. Plus I have had both friends and people I dont know, write me and tell me I must be doing something correct on my blog, by the Both some what nasty replys I have recived from LDS or simply the illogical replys I recive from the LDS about there teachings.
So people feel I am both doing something correct and using thruth to expose Lies, why do the LDS get so upset, if they really have the truth, then they should not fear or even get angry, it should be more a matter of, I feel sorry for you, your simply blind and I can show you where, why, and how. But this simply does not happen. Rick b
Post a Comment