The Untold Story of the Death of Joseph Smith

Some more good info. Rick b

A Seer Stone and a Hat -

This is a really good video, and it raises some hard questions that I dont believe LDS can answer. I would love some honest reply from LDS, But honestly, I just dont believe it will happen. Rick b

Which is Correct. The Bible, or the King follet discourse.

The last few topics, I have been going over things that have been said by Joseph Smith found in the King Follet Discourse. The reason I am doing this, is because, Many LDS take the teaching and use it for the Doctrine many of them believe today. We also read in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, that the King Follet Discourse IS THE GREATEST SERMON EVER GIVEN BY JOSEPH SMITH.

Here is what Joseph Smith said was the reason why Lucifer was kicked out of heaven.

The contention in heaven was--Jesus said there would be certain souls that would not be saved; and the Devil said he could save them all, and laid his plans before the grand council, who gave their vote in favour of Jesus Christ. So the Devil rose up in rebellion against God, and was cast down, with all who put up their heads for him.

Now If Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, why did he teach something that both the Bible and the BoM do not teach, the BoM and the Bible agree with the idea of why Lucifer was cast out of Heaven. But we find a different story in the King Follet Discourse. And Joseph Smith even said, the BoM was the most correct book of all.

The Bible says about Lucifer being tossed out of Heaven

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, [and] consider thee, [saying, Is] this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 [That] made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; [that] opened not the house of his prisoners?
Isa 14:18 All the kings of the nations, [even] all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
Isa 14:19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, [and as] the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
Isa 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, [and] slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Now here is what the BoM teaches, Funny how it is almost word for word what the Bible teaches, I know many say that when Joseph Smith wrote the BoM he simply copied large portions of the Bible. I do believe he did that, but that is really hard to prove. Anyway, these two accounts do not line up with the war in heaven due to the plan of salvation theory.

11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave; the noise of thy viols is not heard; the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! Art thou cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thy heart: a will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and shall consider thee, and shall say: Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms?
17 And made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof, and opened not the house of his prisoners?
18 All the kings of the nations, yea, all of them, lie in glory, every one of them in his own house.
19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and the remnant of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcass trodden under feet.

So who can we trust, the Bible or Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith claims he translated the BoM, so why did he seem to forget what was taught and give a different story from the Bible in his sermon? Rick b

will you become a god?

Joseph Smith taught we can become gods someday. I want to look at that idea and ask this, can we really become gods and if so, will we really have any sort of power?

Joseph Smith said and taught in the King Follet Discourse

Here, then, is eternal life--to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you,--namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one,--from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me.

I would like to point out that Joseph Smith said, Here, then, is eternal life--to know the only wise and true God How can we become gods if their is only ONE TRUE GOD? Mormons will say, God is the only God we worship and have anything to do with, but that was not what Joseph Smith said. He said their is only ONE TRUE GOD.

These are the first principles of consolation. How consoling to the mourners, when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child, or dear relative, to know that, although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again, to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more; but they shall be heirs of God and joint-heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory, and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before.

Notice a few things in what Joseph smith taught. He said we shall inherit the same power. How is this possible? Lets look at Elijah and the prophets of Baal.

1Ki 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD [be] God, follow him: but if Baal, [then] follow him. And the people answered him not a word.
1Ki 18:22 Then said Elijah unto the people, I, [even] I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets [are] four hundred and fifty men.
1Ki 18:23 Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay [it] on wood, and put no fire [under]: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay [it] on wood, and put no fire [under]:
1Ki 18:24 And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.
1Ki 18:25 And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress [it] first; for ye [are] many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire [under].
1Ki 18:26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed [it], and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But [there was] no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.
1Ki 18:27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he [is] a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, [or] peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.
1Ki 18:28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.
1Ki 18:29 And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the [time] of the offering of the [evening] sacrifice, that [there was] neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.
1Ki 18:30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD [that was] broken down.
1Ki 18:31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:
1Ki 18:32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.
1Ki 18:33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid [him] on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour [it] on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.
1Ki 18:34 And he said, Do [it] the second time. And they did [it] the second time. And he said, Do [it] the third time. And they did [it] the third time.
1Ki 18:35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.
1Ki 18:36 And it came to pass at [the time of] the offering of the [evening] sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou [art] God in Israel, and [that] I [am] thy servant, and [that] I have done all these things at thy word.
1Ki 18:37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou [art] the LORD God, and [that] thou hast turned their heart back again.
1Ki 18:38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that [was] in the trench.
1Ki 18:39 And when all the people saw [it], they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he [is] the God; the LORD, he [is] the God.
1Ki 18:40 And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

In these verses, Elijah told the people to call upon their "gods". Notice Elijah said gods plural, not God singular. The reason why I believe this is important is because, Joseph Smith taught we can become gods just like God himself. Yet as a result of these gods not answering, it showed they do not exist. And if they really do exist then they must have no real power, because the prophets of Baal were cutting them selves.

Some LDS might argue that only God is to be worshiped that is why these others did not answer. Even if your correct, the problem still remains, God claims He is the ONLY TRUE GOD, and their are no other gods. Then in the Pearl of great price, God claims to have sat in the counsel of gods. So why would God allow His children to be destroyed by not allowing these other gods to even show they exist?

You would think if God said their are no other gods but really ment their are, and we are to only worship Him and no others, you would think He would have said what He ment, so as to not have these prophets of Baal killed for trying to speak to other gods.

Then lets look at Lucifer and the book of Job. Mormons claim Lucifer is the brother to Jesus, so this would imply they are both Gods, and the Bible does say that Lucifer (Satan) is the god of this world. Yet in the Book of Job we read that Lucifer cannot touch Job unless God allows him to, then after He allows Lucifer to harm Job and kill his family, He does not allow Lucifer to kill Job. So God can and does limit other gods and creatures in the amount of power they have.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he [is] in thine hand; but save his life.

Joseph Smith said

In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it. When we begin to learn in this way, we begin to learn the only true God and what kind of a being we have got to worship. Having a knowledge of God, we begin to know how to approach him and how to ask so as to receive an answer.

As I pointed out before, How can it say, ONLY TRUE GOD, Yet we have other gods? And how can he say, God sat in the counsel of the gods, yet it seems they have no power from the verses I have quoted.

Here is another set of passages from the Bible I want to point out.

1Sa 5:1 And the Philistines took the ark of God, and brought it from Ebenezer unto Ashdod.
1Sa 5:2 When the Philistines took the ark of God, they brought it into the house of Dagon, and set it by Dagon.
1Sa 5:3 And when they of Ashdod arose early on the morrow, behold, Dagon [was] fallen upon his face to the earth before the ark of the LORD. And they took Dagon, and set him in his place again.
1Sa 5:4 And when they arose early on the morrow morning, behold, Dagon [was] fallen upon his face to the ground before the ark of the LORD; and the head of Dagon and both the palms of his hands [were] cut off upon the threshold; only [the stump of] Dagon was left to him.
1Sa 5:5 Therefore neither the priests of Dagon, nor any that come into Dagon's house, tread on the threshold of Dagon in Ashdod unto this day.
1Sa 5:6 But the hand of the LORD was heavy upon them of Ashdod, and he destroyed them, and smote them with emerods, [even] Ashdod and the coasts thereof.
1Sa 5:7 And when the men of Ashdod saw that [it was] so, they said, The ark of the God of Israel shall not abide with us: for his hand is sore upon us, and upon Dagon our god.

The false god fell before the Ark of the Lord and the false god's hands and feet were broken. So much for being a god.

Then we read

Judge's 6:9 And I delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of all that oppressed you, and drave them out from before you, and gave you their land;

Judge's 6:10 And I said unto you, I [am] the LORD your God; fear not the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but ye have not obeyed my voice.

God tells us not to fear the other gods. This tells me He does not fear them and they must not have much if any power. So will you become a god someday? and if so, will you have any power? if we are always less powerful than the god above us, and their is millions of gods, then it seems to me we wont be much of a god after all, plus God says their are no other gods but Him alone. Rick B

66 Books.

If you look at each book of the Bible, here is what they are about. Can a Mormon break down the books in the BoM like this? If you can please do. This shows me the Bible does not need another Testament.


IN GENESIS - He's the breath of life.

IN EXODUS - the passover lamb.

IN LEVITICUS - He's our High Priest.

NUMBERS - fire by night

DEUTERONOMY - He's Moses voice.

IN JOSHUA - He is salvations choice.

JUDGES - Lawgiver

RUTH - The kinsman-redeemer.

I & II SAMUEL - He's our trusted prophet.

KINGS & CHRONICLES - He's soverign.

EZRA - True and faithful scribe.

NEHEMIAH - He's the re-builder of broken walls and lives.

IN ESTHER - He is Mordecai's courage.

IN JOB - the timeless redeemer.

IN THE PSALMS - He is our morning song.

PROVERBS - wisdoms cry.

ECCLESIASTES - the time and seasons.

IN THE SONG OF SOLOMON - He is the lovers dream.

IN ISAIAH - He's the prince of peace.

IN JEREMIAH - the weeping prophet.

IN LAMENTATIONS - the cry for Israel.

IN EZEKIEL - He's the call from sin.

IN DANIEL - the stranger in the fire.

IN HOSEA - He is forever faithful.

IN JOEL - He's the spirits power.

IN AMOS - the arms that carry us.

IN OBADIAH - He's the Lord our Savior.

IN JONAH - He's the great missionary.

IN MICAH - He's the promise of peace.

IN NAHUM - He is our strength and our shield.

IN HABAKKUK & ZEPHANIAH- He is pleading for revival.

IN HAGGAI - He restores the lost heritage.

IN ZECHARIAH - our fountain.

IN MALACHI - He is the Son of righteousness rising with healing in His
wings.

IN MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE AND JOHN - He is God, Man, Messiah.

IN THE BOOK OF ACTS - He is fire from Heaven.

IN ROMANS - He's the grace of God.

IN GALATIANS - He is freedom from the curse of sin.

IN EPHESIANS - our glorious treasure.

IN PHILIPPIANS - the servants heart.

IN COLOSSIANS - He's the God head trinity.

IN THESSALONIANS - Our coming King.

IN TIMOTHY, TITUS, and PHILEMON - He's our mediator and our
faithful pastor.

IN HEBREWS - the everlasting covenant.

IN JAMES - the one who heals the sick.

IN I & II PETER - He's our shepherd.

IN JOHN & IN JUDE- He's the lover coming for His bride.

IN THE REVELATION - He is King of Kings, and Lord of Lords!

He is, He is, He is. He's the prince of peace, the Son of Man, the Lamb of
God, the Great I AM. He's the Alpha and Omega. He's the
Lord God our
Savior, He is Jesus Christ the Lord.

No wonder Jesus says search the Scriptures for in them you think you have
eternal life, yet they testify of ME, yet you will not come to ME that ye
may have life. Rick B

Was God once a man?

LDS teach and believe God was once a man. Know God in the form of Jesus was a man, He came took on flesh and died for us, But JS teaches God was once a man like we are and exalted to Godhood and became a God. JS teaches this in the King Follet Discourse.

Below are quotes taken from the discourse that show JS saying he will show this from the Bible. He never did show this from Scripture and I would ask the LDS who believe this teaching to give Bible based support to show this is true. If you cannot pleae explain how JS is not a liar and false prophet and how you can believe him, despite evidence.

My first object is to find out the character of the only wise and true God, and what kind of a being he is; and if I am so fortunate as to be the man to comprehend God, and explain or convey the principles to your hearts, so that the Spirit seals them upon you, then let every man and woman henceforth sit in silence, put their hands on their mouths, and never lift their hands or voices or say anything against the man of God or the servants of God again.

I will go back to the beginning, before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. If the vail was rent to-day, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,--I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form--like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see.

It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

Rick B

King Follet Discourse

The King follet Discourse is said to be the greatest sermon ever given by Joseph Smith. Not every LDS has read it or has the Journal of discourses where it can be found, it is found in Volume 6 pages 1-11. I am posting it for people to read and then I will reply later about some of it's teachings. Rick b


CHARACTER AND BEING OF GOD--CREATION--SALVATION OF THE DEAD--THE UNPARDONABLE SIN--RESURRECTION--BAPTISM OF THE SPIRIT, ETC.

A Discourse, by President Joseph Smith, delivered at the Conference held near the Temple, in Nauvoo, April 6, 1844. Reported by W. Richards, W. Woodruff, T. Bullock, and W. Clayton

Beloved Saints,--I will call the attention of this congregation while I address you on the subject of the dead. The decease of our beloved brother, Elder King Follett, who was crushed in a well by the falling of a tub of rock, has more immediately led me to that subject. I have been requested to speak by his friends and relatives; but inasmuch as there are a great many in this congregation who live in this city, as well as elsewhere, who have lost friends, I feel disposed to speak on the subject in general, and offer you my ideas so far as I have ability and so far as I shall be inspired by the Holy Spirit to dwell on this subject.

I want your prayers and faith that I may have the instruction of Almighty God and the gift of the Holy Ghost, so that I may set forth things that are true and which can be easily comprehended by you, and that the testimony many carry conviction to your hearts and minds of the truth of what I shall say. Pray that the Lord may strengthen my lungs, stay the winds, and let the prayers of the Saints to heaven appear, that they may enter into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth; for the effectual prayers of the righteous avail much. There is strength here; and I verily believe that your prayers will be heard.

Before I enter fully into the investigation of the subject which is lying before me, I wish to pave the way and bring up the subject from the beginning, that you may understand it. I will make a few preliminaries, in order that you may understand the subject when I come to it. I do not calculate or intend to please your ears with superfluity of words, or oratory, or with much learning; but I calculate to edify you with the simple truths from heaven.

In the first place, I wish to go back to the beginning--to the morn of creation. There is the starting-point for us to look to, in order to understand and be fully acquainted with the mind, purposes, and decrees of the great Eloheim, who sits in yonder heavens as he did at the creation of this world. It is necessary for us to have an understanding of God himself in the beginning. If we start right, it is easy to go right all the time; but if we start wrong, we may go wrong, and it will be a hard matter to get right.

There are but a very few beings in the world who understand rightly the character of God. The great majority of mankind do not comprehend anything, either that which is past or that which is to come, as respects their relationship to God. They do not know, neither do they understand the nature of that relationship; and, consequently, they know but little above the brute beast, or more than to eat, drink, and sleep. This is all man knows about God or his existence, unless it is given by the inspiration of the almighty.

If a man learns nothing more than to eat, drink, and sleep, and does not comprehend any of the designs of God, the beast comprehends the same thing. It eats, drinks, sleeps, and knows nothing more about God: yet it knows as much as we, unless we are able to comprehend by the inspiration of Almighty God. If men do not comprehend the character of God they do not comprehend themselves. I want to go back to the beginning, and so lift your minds into a more lofty sphere and a more exalted understanding than what the human mind generally aspires to.

I want to ask this congregation--every man, women, and child, to answer the question in their own heart, what kind of a being God is? Ask yourselves; turn your thoughts into your hearts, and say if any of you have seen, heard, or communed with him. This is a question that may occupy your attention for a long time. I again repeat the question--What kind of a being is God? Does any man or woman know? Have any of you seen him, heard him, or communed with him? Here is the question that will peradventure from this time henceforth occupy your attention. The Scriptures inform us that "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent."

If any man does not know God, and inquires what kind of a being he is,--if he will search diligently his own heart--if the declarations of Jesus and the Apostles be true--he will realize that he has not eternal life; for there can be eternal life on no other principle.

My first object is to find out the character of the only wise and true God, and what kind of a being he is; and if I am so fortunate as to be the man to comprehend God, and explain or convey the principles to your hearts, so that the Spirit seals them upon you, then let every man and woman henceforth sit in silence, put their hands on their mouths, and never lift their hands or voices or say anything against the man of God or the servants of God again. But if I fail to do it, it becomes my duty to renounce all further pretensions to revelations, inspirations, or to be a Prophet; and I should be like the rest of the world--a false teacher, be hailed as a friend, and no man would seek my life. But if all religious teachers were honest enough to renounce their pretensions to godliness, when their ignorance of the knowledge of God is made manifest, they will all be as badly off as I am, at any rate; and you might just as well take the lives of other false teachers as that of mine, if I am false. If any man is authorized to take away my life because he thinks and says I am a false teacher, then, upon the same principle, we should be justified in taking away the life of every false teacher; and where would be the end of blood? and who would not be the sufferer?

But meddle not with any man for his religion; and all governments ought to permit every man to enjoy his religion unmolested. No man is authorized to take away life in consequence of difference of religion, which all laws and governments ought to tolerate and protect, right or wrong. Every man has a natural and, in our country, a constitutional right to be a false prophet as well as a true prophet. If I show, verily, that I have the truth of God, and show that ninety-nine out of every hundred professing religious ministers are false teachers, having no authority, while they pretend to hold the keys of God's kingdom on earth, and was to kill them because they are false teachers, it would deluge the whole world with blood.

I will prove that the world is wrong, by showing what God is. I am going to inquire after God; for I want you all to know him and to be familiar with him; and if I can bring you to a knowledge of him, all persecutions against me ought to cease. You will then know that I am his servant; for I speak as one having authority.

I will go back to the beginning, before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. If the vail was rent to-day, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,--I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form--like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see.

These are incomprehensible ideas to some; but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease for ever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon.) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power"--to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner, to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.

Here, then, is eternal life--to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you,--namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one,--from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me.

These are the first principles of consolation. How consoling to the mourners, when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child, or dear relative, to know that, although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again, to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more; but they shall be heirs of God and joint-heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory, and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds come rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the track of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children. It is plain beyond disputation; and you thus learn some of the first principles of the Gospel, about which so much hath been said.

When you climb a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel: you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the vail before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world: it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave. I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of anything that is not contained in the Bible. If I did, I think there are so many over-wise men here, that they would cry "treason" and put me to death. So I will go to the old Bible and turn commentator to-day.

I shall comment on the very first Hebrew word in the Bible. I will make a comment on the very first sentence of the history of creation in the Bible--Berosheit. I want to analyze the word. Baith--in, by, through, and everything else. Rosh--the head. Sheit--grammatical termination. When the inspired man wrote it, he did not put the Baith there. An old Jew, without any authority, added the word. He thought it too bad to begin to talk about the head! It read first, "The head one of the Gods brought forth the Gods." That is the true meaning of the words. Baurau signified to bring forth. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the learned man of God. Learned men can teach you no more than what I have told you. Thus, the head God brought forth the Gods in the grand council.

I will transpose and simplify if in the English language. Oh, ye lawyers, ye doctors, and ye priests, who have persecuted me, I want to let you know that the Holy Ghost knows something as well as you do. The head God called together the Gods and sat in grand council to bring forth the world. The grand counsellors sat at the head in yonder heavens, and contemplated the creation of the worlds which were created at that time. When I say doctors and lawyers, I mean the doctors and lawyers of the Scriptures. I have done so hitherto without explanation, to let the lawyers flutter, and everybody laugh at them. Some learned doctor might take a notion to say the Scriptures say thus and so; and we must believe the Scriptures; they are not to be altered. But I am going to show you an error in them.

I have an old edition of the New Testament in the Hebrew, Latin, German, and Greek languages. I have been reading the German, and find it to be the most correct translation, and to correspond nearest to the revelations which God has given to me for the last fourteen years. It tells about Jachoboy, the son of Zebedee. It means Jacob. In the English New Testament it is translated James. Now, if Jacob had the keys, you might talk about James through all eternity, and never get the keys. In the 21st verse of the fourth chapter of Matthew, my old German edition gives the word Jacob instead of James.

The doctors (I mean doctors of law, not of physic,) say, "If you preach anything not according to the Bible, we will cry treason." How can we escape the damnation of hell, except God be with us and reveal to us? Men bind us with chains. The Latin says Jachabod, which means Jacob; the Hebrew says Jacob, the Creek says Jacob, and the German says Jacob. Here we have the testimony of four against one. I thank God I have got this old book; but I thank him more for the gift of the Holy Ghost. I have got the oldest book in the world; but I have got the oldest book in my heart, even the gift of the Holy Ghost. I have all the four Testaments. Come here, ye learned men, and read, if you can. I should not have introduced this testimony, were it not to back up the word Rosh--the head, the father of the Gods. I should not have brought it up, only to show that I am right.

In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it. When we begin to learn in this way, we begin to learn the only true God and what kind of a being we have got to worship. Having a knowledge of God, we begin to know how to approach him and how to ask so as to receive an answer.

When we understand the character of God and know how to come to him, he begins to unfold the heavens to us and to tell us all about it. When we are ready to come to him, he is ready to come to us.

Now, I ask all who hear me, why the learned men who are preaching salvation say that God created the heavens and the earth out of nothing? The reason is, that they are unlearned in the things of God and have not the gift of the Holy Ghost. They account it blasphemy in any one to contradict their idea. If you tell them that God made the world out of something, they will call you a fool. But I am learned, and know more than all the world put together. The Holy Ghost does, anyhow; and he is within me, and comprehends more than all the world; and I will associate myself with him.

You ask the learned doctors why they say the world was made out of nothing; and they will answer, "Don't the Bible say he created the world?" And they infer, from the word create, that it must have been made out of nothing. Now, the word create came from the word baurau, which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize--the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos--chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time He had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed: they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning, and can have no end.

I have another subject to dwell upon, which is calculated to exalt man. But it is impossible for me to say much on this subject. I shall, therefore, just touch upon it; for time will not permit me to say all. It is associated with the subject of the resurrection of the dead--namely, the soul, the mind of man, the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning. But it is not so. The very idea lessons man in my estimation. I do not believe the doctrine. I know better. Here it, all ye ends of the world; for God has told me so; and if you don't believe me, it will not make the truth without effect. I will make a man appear a fool before I get through, if he does not believe it. I am going to tell of things more noble.

We say that God himself is a self-existent being. Who told you so? It is correct enough; but how did it get into your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles. God made a tabernacle and put a spirit into it, and it became a living soul. [Referred to the old Bible.] How does it read in the Hebrew? It does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says, "God made man out of the earth, and put into him Adam's spirit, and so became a living body."

The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself. I know that my testimony is true; hence, when I talk to these mourners, what have they lost? Their relatives and friends are only separated from their bodies for a short season: their spirits which existed with God have left the tabernacle of clay only for a little moment, as it were; and they now exist in a place where they converse together the same as we do on the earth.

I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it had a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they co-equal with our Father in heaven.

I want to reason more on the spirit of man; for I am dwelling on the body and spirit of man--on the subject of the dead. I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man--the immortal part, because it has no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two, then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, if it had a beginning it will have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the housetops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself.

Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement.

The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.

This is good doctrine. It tastes good. I can taste the principles of eternal life, and so can you. They are given to me by the revelations of Jesus Christ; and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life as they are given to me, you taste them, and I know you believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also taste the spirit of eternal life. I know it is good; and when I tell you of these things which were given me by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and I rejoice more and more.

I want to talk more of the relation of man to God. I will open your eyes in relation to your dead. All things whatsoever God of his infinite wisdom has seen fit and proper to reveal to us, while we are dwelling in mortality, in regard to our mortal bodies, are revealed to us in the abstract and independent of affinity of this mortal tabernacle; but are revealed to our spirits precisely as though we had no bodies at all; and those revelations which will save our spirits will save our bodies. God reveals them to us in view of no eternal dissolution of the body, or tabernacle. Hence the responsibility--the awful responsibility that rests upon us in relation to our dead; for all the spirits who have not obeyed the Gospel in the flesh must either obey it in the spirit or be damned. Solemn thought!--dreadful thought! Is there nothing to be done? No preparation--no salvation for our fathers and friends who have died without having had the opportunity to obey the decrees of the Son of Man? Would to God that I had forty days and nights in which to tell you all! I would let you know that I am not a "fallen prophet."

What promises are made in relation to the subject of the salvation of the dead? and what kind of characters are those who can be saved, although their bodies are mouldering and decaying in the grave? When his commandments teach us, it is in view of eternity; for we are looked upon by God as though we were in eternity. God dwells in eternity, and does not view things as we do.

The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our dead. The Apostle says, "They without us cannot be made perfect;" for it is necessary that the sealing power should be in our hands to seal our children and our dead for the fulness of the dispensation of times--a dispensation to meet the promises made by Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world for the salvation of man.

Now, I will speak of them. I will meet Paul half-way. I say to you, Paul, you cannot be perfect without us. It is necessary that those who are gone before and those who come after us should have salvation in common with us; and thus hath God made it obligatory upon man. Hence God said, "I will send Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord; and he shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

I have a declaration to make as to the provisions which God hath made to suit the conditions of man, made from before the foundation of the world. What has Jesus said? All sins, and all blasphemies, and every transgression, except one, that man can be guilty of, may be forgiven; and there is a salvation for all men, either in this world or the world to come, who have not committed the unpardonable sin, there being a provision either in this world or the world of spirits. Hence God hath made a provision that every spirit in the eternal world can be ferreted out and saved, unless he has committed that unpardonable sin which cannot be remitted to him either in this world or the world of spirits. God has wrought out a salvation for all men, unless they have committed a certain sin; and every man who has a friend in the eternal world can save him, unless he has committed the unpardonable sin. And so you can see how far you can be a saviour.

A man cannot commit the unpardonable sin after the dissolution of the body, and there is a way possible for escape. Knowledge saves a man; and in the world of spirits no man can be exalted but by knowledge. So long as a man will not give heed to the commandments, he must abide without salvation. If a man has knowledge, he can be saved; although, if he has been guilty of great sins, he will be punished for them. But when he consents to obey the Gospel, whether here or in the world of spirits, he is saved.

A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. I say, so is the torment of man.

I know the Scriptures and understand them. I said no man can commit the unpardonable sin after the dissolution of the body, nor in this life until he received the Holy Ghost; but they must do it in this world. Hence the salvation of Jesus Christ was wrought out for all men in order to triumph over the Devil; for if it did not catch him in one place, it would in another; for he stood up as a Saviour. All will suffer until they obey Christ himself.

The contention in heaven was--Jesus said there would be certain souls that would not be saved; and the Devil said he could save them all, and laid his plans before the grand council, who gave their vote in favour of Jesus Christ. So the Devil rose up in rebellion against God, and was cast down, with all who put up their heads for him.

All sins shall be forgiven except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

When a man begins to be an enemy to this work, he hunts me; he seeks to kill me, and never ceases to thirst for my blood. He gets the spirit of the Devil--the same spirit that they had who crucified the Lord of Life,--the same spirit that sins against the Holy Ghost. You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance: they make open war like the Devil, and awful is the consequence.

I advise all of you to be careful what you do, or you may by-and-by find out that you have been deceived. Stay yourselves; do not give way; don't make any hasty moves: you may be be saved. If a spirit of bitterness is in you, don't be in haste. You may say that man is a sinner. Well, if he repents, he shall be forgiven. Be cautious: await! When you find a spirit what wants bloodshed--murder, the same is not of God, but is of the Devil. Out of the abundance of the heart of man the mouth speaketh.

The best men bring forth the best works. The man who tells you words of life is the man who can save you. I warn you against all evil characters who sin against the Holy Ghost; for there is no redemption for them in this world nor in the world to come.

I could go back and trace every subject of interest concerning the relationship of man to God, if I had time. I can enter into the mysteries; I can enter largely into the eternal worlds; for Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." (John 14th chap., 2nd v.) Paul says, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead." (1st Cor. 15th chap., 41st v.) What have we to console us in relation to the dead? We have reason to have the greatest hope and consolations for our dead of any people on the earth; for we have seen them walk worthily in our midst, and seen them sink asleep in the arms of Jesus; and those who have died in the faith are now in the celestial kingdom of God. And hence is the glory of the sun.

You mourners have occasion to rejoice (speaking of the death of Elder King Follett); for your husband and father is gone to wait until the resurrection of the dead--until the perfection of the remainder; for at the resurrection your friend will rise in perfect felicity and go to celestial glory, while many must wait myriads of years before they can receive the like blessings; and your expectations and hopes are far above what man can conceive; for why has God revealed it to us?

I AM AUTHORIZED to say, by the authority of the Holy Ghost, that you have no occasion to fear; for he is gone to the home of the just. Don't mourn; don't weep. I know it by the testimony of the Holy Ghost that is within me; and you may wait for your friends to come forth to meet you in the morn of the celestial world.

Rejoice, O Israel! Your friends who have been murdered for the truth's sake in the persecution shall triumph gloriously in the celestial world, while their murderers shall welter for ages in torment, even until they shall have paid the uttermost farthing. I say this for the benefit of strangers.

I have a father, brothers, children, and friends who have gone to a world of spirits. They are only absent for a moment. They are in the spirit, and we shall soon meet again. The time will soon arrive when the trumpet shall sound. When we depart, we shall hail our mothers, fathers, friends, and all whom we love who have fallen asleep in Jesus. There will be no fear of mobs, persecutions, or malicious law-suits and arrests; but it will be an eternity of felicity.

A question may be asked--"Will mothers have their children in eternity?" Yes! yes! Mothers, you shall have your children; for they shall have eternal life; for their debt is paid. There is no damnation awaits them, for they are in the spirit. But as the child dies, so shall it rise from the dead, and be for ever living in the learning of God. It will never grow: it will still be the child, in the same precise form as it appeared before it died out of its mother's arms, but possessing all the intelligence of a God. Children dwell in the mansions of glory and exercise power, but appear in the same form as when on earth. Eternity is full of thrones, upon which dwell thousands of children reigning on thrones of glory, with not one cubit added to their stature.

I will leave this subject here, and make a few remarks on the subject of baptism. The baptism of water, without the baptism of fire and the Holly Ghost attending it, is of no use: they are necessary and inseparably connected. An individual must be born of water and the spirit in order to get into the kingdom of God. In the German, the text bears me out the same as the revelations which I have given and taught for the last fourteen years on that subject. I have the testimony to put in their teeth. My testimony has been true all the time. You will find it in the declaration of John the Baptist. [Reads from the German.] John says, "I baptise you with water; but when Jesus comes, who has the power (or keys), he shall administer the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost." Great God! where is now all the sectarian world? And if this testimony is true, they are all damned as clearly as anathema can do it. I know the text is true. I call upon all you Germans who know that it is true to say aye. (Loud shouts of aye.)

Alexander Campbell, how are you going to save people with water alone? For John said his baptism was good for nothing without the baptism of Jesus Christ. "Therefore, not leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit." (Heb. 6th chap., 1st to 3rd v.)

There is one God, one Father, one Jesus, one hope of our calling, one baptism. All these three baptisms only make one. Many talk of baptism not being essential to salvation: but this kind of teaching would lay the foundation of their damnation. I have the truth, and am at the defiance of the world to contradict me if they can.

I have now preached a little Latin, a little Hebrew, Greek, and German; and I have fulfilled all. I am not so big a fool as many have taken me to be. The Germans know that I read the German correctly.

Hear it, all ye ends of the earth--all ye priests, all ye sinners, and all men. Repent! repent! Obey the Gospel. Turn to God; for your religion won't save you, and you will be damned. I do not say how long. There have been remarks made concerning all men being redeemed from hell; but I say that those who sin against the Holy Ghost cannot be forgiven in this world or in the world to come: they shall die the second death. Those who commit the unpardonable sin are doomed to Gnolom, to dwell in hell, worlds without end. As they concoct scenes of bloodshed in this world, so they shall rise to that resurrection which is as the lake of fire and brimstone. Some shall rise to the everlasting burning of God; for God dwells in everlasting burnings; and some shall rise to the damnation of their own filthiness, which is as exquisite a torment a the lake of fire and brimstone.

I have intended my remarks for all, both rich and poor, bond and free, great and small. I have no enmity against any man. I love you all; but I have some of your deeds. I am your best friend; and if persons miss their mark, it is their own fault. If I reprove a man and he hates me, he is a fool; for I love all men, especially these my brethren and sisters.

I rejoice in hearing the testimony of my aged friends. You don't know me: you never knew my heart. No man knows my history. I cannot tell it: I shall never undertake it. I don't blame any one for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I could not have believed it myself. I never did harm any man since I was born into the world. My voice is always for peace.

I cannot lie down until all my work is finished. I never think any evil, nor do anything to the harm of my fellow-man. When I am called by the trump of the archangel and weighed in the balance, you will all know me then. I add no more. God bless you all. Amen.

Mormon documentary

In case you missed it or missed some of it, you can view it all right here.
PBS Mormons

LDS changing Doctrine, Part 3

Part 3 will show quotes from past LDS presidents and leaders Claiming polygamy is a law of God and that Blacks will never be able to hold the priesthood. Two more LDS teachings that have since changed.

Brigham Young preached, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy" (Journal of Discourses (JOD) 11:269).

On October 12, 1856, Heber C. Kimball (first counselor to Brigham Young) declared, "You might as well deny 'Mormonism,' and turn away from it, as to oppose the plurality of wives." (JOD 5:203).

In 1866, Brigham Young forcefully stated, "We are told that if we would give up polygamy--which we know to be a doctrine revealed from heaven and it is God and the world for it--but suppose this Church should give up this holy order of marriage, then would the devil, and all who are in league with him against the cause of God, rejoice that they had prevailed upon the Saints to refuse to obey one of the revelations and commandments of God to them." Later in the sermon President Young asked, "Will the Latter-day Saints do this? No" (JOD 11:239).

That same year, John Taylor, Mormonism's future third president, accused those who opposed polygamy within the LDS Church as "apostates." He said: "Where did this commandment come from in relation to polygamy? It also came from God...When this commandment was given, it was so far religious, and so far binding upon the Elders of this Church that it was told them if they were not prepared to enter into it, and to stem the torrent of opposition that would come in consequence of it, the keys of the kingdom would be taken from them. When I see any of our people, men or women, opposing a principle of this kind, I have years ago set them down as on the high road to apostacy, and I do to-day; I consider them apostates, and not interested in this Church and kingdom" (JOD 11:221).

In 1869 Wilford Woodruff, Mormonism's future fourth president, taught, "If we were to do away with polygamy, it would only be one feather in the bird, one ordinance in the Church and kingdom. Do away with that, then we must do away with prophets and Apostles, with revelation and the gifts and graces of the Gospel, and finally give up our religion altogether and turn sectarians and do as the world does, then all would be right. We just can't do that, for God has commanded us to build up His kingdom and to bear our testimony to the nations of the earth, and we are going to do it, come life or come death. He has told us to do thus, and we shall obey Him in days to come as we have in days past" (JOD 13:165 - p.166).

Even as late as 1879, Joseph F. Smith was insisting that plural marriage was essential for LDS exaltation. Speaking at the funeral of William Clayton, Mormonism's future sixth president, stated, "This doctrine of eternal union of husband and wife, and of plural marriage, is one of the most important doctrines ever revealed to man in any age of the world. Without it man would come to a full stop; without it we never could be exalted to associate with and become god..." (JOD 21:9).

During a message given in 1880, Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt said, "...if plurality of marriage is not true or in other words, if a man has no divine right to marry two wives or more in this world, then marriage for eternity is not true, and your faith is all vain, and all the sealing ordinances, and powers, pertaining to marriages for eternity are vain, worthless, good for nothing; for as sure as one is true the other also must be true." (JOD 21:296).


In today's world of Mormonism, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, and many other well-known heroes of the Mormon faith would be promptly excommunicated from the LDS Church for their participation in practicing their view of celestial marriage. LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie declared, "All who pretend or assume to engage in plural marriage in this day, when the one holding the keys has withdrawn the power by which they are performed, are guilty of gross wickedness" (Mormon Doctrine, pp.579). No doubt, if Brigham Young were alive, he would rebut this by stating, "Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be dammed..." (Journal of Discourses 3:266).

Now we read about Black skinned people.

Smith also stated that "there is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less" (Doctrines of Salvation 1:61).

For these reasons, Bruce McConkie would write, "The negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow therefrom…" (Mormon Doctrine, p.527, 1966 ed.).


In a sermon given on March 8, 1863, Young stated, "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so" (Journal of Discourses, 10:110).


On two separate occasions, third LDS President John Taylor stated that it was God's plan to allow the seed of Cain to remain on the earth in order for the devil to be properly represented. On August 28, 1881, he declared, "And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God" (Journal of Discourses 22:304).

The following year, Taylor reiterated his former comment when he said, "Why is it, in fact, that we should have a devil? Why did the Lord not kill him long ago? Because he could not do without him. He needed the devil and a great many of those who do his bidding to keep men straight, that we may learn to place our dependence on God, and trust in Him, and to observe his laws and keep his commandments. When he destroyed the inhabitants of the antediluvian world, he suffered a descendant of Cain to come through the flood in order that he might be properly represented upon the earth" (Journal of Discourses 23:336).




On December 3, 1854, Brigham Young said, "When all the other children of Adam have had the privilege of receiving the Priesthood, and of coming into the kingdom of God, and of being redeemed from the four quarters of the earth, and have received their resurrection from the dead, then it will be time enough to remove the curse from Cain and his posterity" (Journal of Discourses 2:143).

President Wilford Woodruff noted in his journal that President Young said, "...that mark shall remain upon the seed of Cain until the seed of Abel shall be redeemed, and Cain shall not receive the Priesthood, until the time of that redemption" (History of Wilford Woodruff, p.351, as printed in The Way to Perfection, p.106).

LDS Changing Doctrine, Part 2

Sorry it has taken a while to post my part 2. I will add more in a 3rd part.
For a review of Part 1 go here, part 1

Now lets look at what Brigham Young said about his teachings.

I am here to give this people, called Latter-day Saints, counsel to direct them in the path of life...If there is any elder here, or any member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who can bring up the first idea, the first sentence that I have delivered to the people as counsel that is wrong, I really wish they would do it; but they cannot do it, for the simple reason that I have never given counsel that is wrong; this is the reason (Journal of Discourses 16:161).

I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom, as I know the road to my office. It is just as plain and easy. The Lord is in our midst. He teaches the people continually. I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve (Journal of Discourses 13:95).


You have heard me say, a great many times, that there is not that man or woman in this Church, and there never was and never will be, who turn up their noses at the counsel that is given them from the First Presidency, but who, unless they repent of and refrain from such conduct will eventually go out of the Church and go to hell, every one of them (Journal of Discourses 17:159).

It seems really Clear to me, Brigham young sounds as if he is teaching what he believes to be fact and truth. I know many LDS claim that the Adam God Doctrine is false and maybe someone wrote it down incorrectly. Here is a few reasons why I do not believe it was taken down incorrectly. It was only two pages long at best, yet the King Follet discourse by Joseph Smith was 11 pages long, and LDS to this day claim, this was Joseph Smith GREATEST SERMON ever given.

So why would 2 pages by Brigham Young be written down incorrectly, yet the same guy writing what Joseph Smith taught, could write 11 pages with out error? Then the very first quote I give from the JoD by Brigham Young can be found in JoD volume 16. I happen to own the entire set of the JoD, so lets look at the time frame here, Volume one was written in January 1853. Volume 16 was written in April 1873, this is a difference of 20 years. I know that in that 20 year time frame their were people among the LDS who did not like Brigham Young's teaching of Adam God, So if he was in error, why did he not correct it, but go on to say what he did in volume 16? This is one Doctrine that has Changed.

For more on Adam God go here, Adam God And here, more Adam God

Now Brigham Young goes on to say,

We believe we have a correct idea of the character of the Son from the writings of the Apostles, so far as they learned it. But while he was tabernacling in the flesh, he was more or less contaminated with fallen nature. While he was here, in a body that his mother Mary bore him, he was more or less connected with and influenced by this nature that we have received. According to the flesh, he was the seed of Adam and Eve, and suffered the weaknesses and temptations of his fellow mortals (Journal of Discourses 6:95-96).

Here is a few problems with this and again shows changing Doctrine. LDS today teach Jesus was sinless, to examples are the teachings found in the Book, (True to the faith, a gospel reference) And (Mormon Doctrine) They claim Jesus was sinless, Jesus could not be sinless if he was (contaminated with fallen nature Then the Other problem is, LDS teach that (original sin) is a theory and false teaching. Well if Original sin is true, then the only way Jesus could have sin in Him was if He had and earthly father, But God is His father, So Brigham Young will later go onto say, Marry had sex with a mortal human to give birth to Jesus. So in effect Brigham Young teaches original sin by saying Jesus had our fallen nature, again another LDS doctrine that Changes. For more on Original Sin go here, original sin

Brigham Young goes onto teach Marry had sex with a mere human.

When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession (Journal of Discourses 1:50).

When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same Being who is the Father of our spirits, and that is all the organic difference between Jesus Christ and you and me (Journal of Discourses 4:218).

If the Son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females, and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget children, to be palmed upon the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties (Journal of Discourses 1:51).

What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation (Journal of Discourses 1:51).

The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers (Journal of Discourses 8:115).

In relation to the way in which I look upon the works of God and his creatures, I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, also my Saviour Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and their was nothing unnatural about it(Journal of Discourses 8:211)

The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife. (The Seer, 158)

But God having created all men and women, had the most perfect right to do with His own creation, according to His holy will and pleasure: He had a lawful right to over shadow the Virgin Mary in the capacity of a husband, and beget a Son, although she was espoused to another. (The Seer ,158)

Read Gospel Principles pg 57, Doctrines of Salvation 1:18, Articles of Faith 466-467, and Mormon Doctrine pg 547 and 742.

Yet again, more changing Doctrine, as the LDS no longer teach this idea.



Now we read Brigham Young teaches a few things here, He teaches that Keeping the law cleanse us from Sin, and the Blood of Christ cannot clean all our Sin. then he goes on to teach, Blood atonement.

We must believe that this same Jesus was crucified for the sins of the world, that is for the original sin, not the actual individual transgressions of the people; not but that the blood of Christ will cleanse from all sin, all who are disposed to act their part by repentance, and faith in his name. But the original sin was atoned for by the death of Christ, although its effects we still see in the diseases, distempers and every species of wickedness with which the human family as afflicted (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 153).


keeping the commandments of God will cleanse away the stain of sin (Journal of Discourses 2:4).



There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone for their sins, whereas, if such is not the case, they will stick to them and remain upon them in the spirit world (Journal of Discourses 4:53).

There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.385).

I do know that there are sins committed, of such a nature that if the people did understand the doctrine of salvation, they would tremble because of their situation. And furthermore, I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves, and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course. I will say further; I have had men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sins. It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it can never remit (Journal of Discourses 4:53-54).

I will take the Government of the United States, and the laws of Missouri and Illinois, from the year 1833 to 1845, and if they had been carried out according to their letter and spirit, they would have strung up the murderers and mobocrats who illegally and unrighteously killed, plundered, harassed, and expelled us. I will tell you how much I love those characters. If they had any respect to their own welfare, they would come forth and say, whether Joseph Smith was a Prophet or not, "We shed his blood, and now let us atone for it;" and they would be willing to have their heads chopped off, that their blood might run upon the ground, and the smoke of it rise before the Lord as an incense for their sins. I love them that much. But if the Lord wishes them to live and foam out their sins before all men and women, it is all right, I care not where they go, or what they do (Journal of Discourses 2:186).

Now take a person in this congregation who has knowledge with regard to being saved in the kingdom of our God and our Father, and being exalted, one who knows and understands the principles of eternal life, and sees the beauty and excellency of the eternities before him compared with the vain and foolish things of the world, and suppose that he is overtaken in a gross fault, that he has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding of his blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin, and be saved and exalted with the Gods, is there a man of woman in this house but what would say, 'shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the Gods?' All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers or sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant (Journal of Discourses 4:219-220).

I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins. I have seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance (in the last resurrection there will be) if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as a smoking incense to the Almighty, but who are now angels to the devil, until our elder brother Jesus Christ raises them up—conquers death, hell, and the grave. I have known a great many men who have left this Church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them. The wickedness and ignorance of the nations forbid this principle's being in full force, but the time will come when the law of God will be in full force...This is loving our neighbour as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it (Journal of Discourses 4:220).

LDS no longer Teach Blood Atonement, and the Bible does not teach, keeping the entire law will remove our Sins, the Bible teaches only the Blood of Christ will do this. Rick B

Jesus versus Joseph Smith videos.

Please watch the videos and post your thoughts. I know the LDS Church is really upset about this video, Must hate the truth. Rick b

DVD, Jesus verses Joseph Smith.

Sorry about taking so long to get my part two posted, I have been really busy, Then I recived an Email about the newest DVD being handed out to LDS members. I want to put up what was posted by LDS leaders and what was said by Bill McKeever.

I am Putting down the LDS website, but also what they said. lds responce



SALT LAKE CITY 29 March 2007 Several news reports have appeared over the past few days in Utah and Arizona about a Christian activist group that has been distributing anti-Mormon DVDs throughout Utah and in some other states.

The Jewish Anti-Defamation League in Phoenix promptly condemned the distribution, saying that “hate directed at any of us is hate directed at all of us.”

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has weathered such attacks throughout its history. At a time when the Church is growing strongly throughout the world, it’s not surprising that some groups try to curb that growth in such ways.

Throughout the history of the United States, the rights of free speech and freedom of religion have been pre-eminent. Groups opposed to the Church have a perfect right to distribute their materials in ways that are legal.

The issue is not one of rights. Rather, it is that one religious group chooses to target another with a DVD full of distortions of its doctrine and history, and misrepresentations so stark that they call into question the integrity of the producers.

When Latter-day Saint missionaries visit homes or engage others in conversation, they studiously avoid criticism of other faiths. They do not attack and they do not condemn. Instead, they declare their own message honestly and openly and allow people the freedom to choose. Above all, they encourage each person to find out for themselves through personal research as well as prayer.

That will continue to be the Church’s approach, not just because honest and open dialogue is what most people want, but because in our view it best represents the spirit of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Bill Replies with, Bills reply

Open Letter to the First Presidency Regarding the Charge of Hatred

April 4, 2007

The First Presidency
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
50 East North Temple
Salt Lake City, UT 84150-0002

Dear Sirs,

As a Christian living in the Salt Lake Valley, I wish to express my indignation at your church’s tacit approval of the Anti-Defamation League's accuastion of hatred towards Christians who were involved in a recent DVD distribution. It is one thing to disagree with the content of the DVD, but it is quite another to accuse them of being motivated by hate. I will try to temper my outrage by asking the following questions:

* How many people involved in the distribution did you actually speak to who exhibited hatred as their reason for participating?
* What phrase or statement in the DVD resembled anything close to “hate speech”?
* If there is no evidence that the participants were motivated by hatred, are you not guilty of bearing false witness when you make that accusation?
* Isn’t it also duplicitous of you to make such an unfounded accusation of hatred and then retreat to your 177th General Conference to talk about forgiveness and speaking “with the (peaceful) voice of angels”? Jesus talked about such hypocrisy in Matthew 7:1ff.
* You insist that the DVD did not include official sources. It did. However, if official sources really concern you, why did you hide behind an unofficial rebuttal? Why should anybody consider FAIR’s response authoritative since this organization claims it does not officially speak for the LDS Church? Why doesn’t the LDS Church have the courage to offer its own response?
* LDS.org states, “When Latter-day Saint missionaries visit homes or engage others in conversation, they studiously avoid criticism of other faiths. They do not attack and they do not condemn”? Are you really unaware that your present missionary manual clearly states on page 36, “Investigators must be told that a universal apostasy occurred following the death of Jesus and His Apostles. If there had been no apostasy, there would have been no need of a Restoration. As a diamond on black velvet appears more brilliant, so the restoration stands in striking contrast to the dark background of the Great Apostasy. As guided by the Spirit, teach investigators about the Great Apostasy at a level of detail appropriate to their needs and circumstance” (Preach My Gospel, p.36). Do you really not see the hypocrisy in this statement?
* Over the years I have listened politely to numerous missionaries tell me about Joseph Smith’s alleged First Vision. Do you really think Christians such as I should not feel criticized when we are told that our churches are wrong, our creeds are an abomination, and that Christian “professors” are corrupt?
* At your 177th General Conference, it was stated, "I know that heaven-sent revelations have replaced the gross errors of manmade doctrines concerning the Godhead." Is this not a criticism directed at millions of Christians?
* If the LDS Church had its people place information on doors in neighborhoods and Christians made a concerted effort to remove this information (as Mormons have bragged they did), wouldn’t that be called stealing? Why is it that the Mormons who did this do not see it as such?
* If the Christian community responded to an evangelistic effort by the LDS Church with the loud, angry voices exhibited recently by Latter-day Saints, wouldn’t your members accuse the Christians of persecuting them? Why should these actions not be considered persecution against Christians?

Please bear in mind that I am not saying that Mormons do not have the right to believe whatever they wish; in fact, I have often strongly supported their right to do so. I would only ask that you, as leaders of this church, be honest with the media and the general public when it comes to the subject of criticism and the charge of hatred.

With all of the talk of repentance at your last conference, I think you need to lead by example and offer an apology to the thousands of Christians you have offended with this false accusation.

Sincerely,

Bill McKeever

Director, Mormonism Research Ministry

LDS Changing Doctrine, Part 1

I hear many LDS claim, "OUR DOCTRINE" never changes. First off lets define the word (Doctrine). Simply put, the word Doctrine is nothing more than a fancy way to say (TEACHING).

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
doc·trine /ˈdɒktrɪn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[dok-trin] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine.
2. something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine.
3. a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church.
[Origin: 1350–1400; ME < AF < L doctrīna teaching, equiv. to doct(o)r doctor + -īna -ine2]

—Synonyms 1. tenet, dogma, theory, precept, belief.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

Now the LDS try and say that us christians, change our doctrine. Let me clear up what I believe are some problems here that the LDS see.

Their are as the Bible teaches, people wanting their itching ears tickled, and want to be told lies and believe lies.

2Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

It is not my fault or the fault of any other Christian out their, if some person claims to have faith in Christ, yet believes things contrary to sound Doctrine. Just because a person claims to believe something different does not make them a Christian. I see no difference in this, verses the fact, RLDS or FLDS who claim to believe Joseph Smith as their Prophet and Claim Jesus as their Saviour and Claim to believe the BoM to be the word of god, yet they dont agree with the LDS on many points.

Now here we have to LDS who cannot agree on Doctrine changing or not.

Scott said:
You say you love the Bible. All 'Christian churches' say the same thing. If the Bible is the sole word of God, can you tell me why none of those 'Christian churches' teach the same doctrine? How do you explain it?

Doesn't the Bible teach One faith, one Lord and one baptism? Why so many of each then?

This reply from Scott can be found in the replies here, Witness tips 2

Now A more in depth answer has been given on my blog here, Denominations

Scott does not come out and say it, but it is implied, his Church's Doctrine does not change.

Now read,

elisabeth said...

All of our doctrine comes from Christ himself . Just because it changes does not mean it's wrong . Polygamy is wrong because it is against the law and we are encouraged to obey the laws of the land .
6:49 PM, March 11, 2007

Elisabeth's reply can be found under Scotts in the Tips part 2 section. She claims to be an LDS member and Claims their Doctrine does change, She simply does not see a problem with this.

If I were to listen to her share the Gospel and her faith with me, I would wonder, if she admits her Doctrine changes, how can I trust her Church to be the true Church? If you god is a changing god, can I really trust him? Yet if I were to hear Scott Share his gospel with me, yet he does not know his Church's teachings well enough to know they Change, then How could I trust him? Maybe he knows and will not share, but then thats being dishonest. But if he does not know his Church's teachings change then this is a problem, Because D and C 131:6 states It is IMPOSSIBLE for a man to be saved in ignorance.

Now lets review some of the 14 fundamentals of following the Prophet.

In conclusion, let us summarize this grand key, these "Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet," for our salvation hangs on them.

First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture.

Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true.if we want to know how well we stand with the Lord, then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain. How closely do our lives harmonize with the words of the Lord's anointed--the living prophet, the President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency?

You can view them all here, plus the Scriptures the "Prophet" uses to back up his claims about these. 14

I brought up the 14 fundamentals because, Ezra Taft Benson claims salvation hangs upon them, And claims they are true, So if they are true, how can the Church's doctrine Change?

Notice, If the Prophet speaks for the Lord in everything, and the Prophet does not need to say, thus saith the Lord to give us scripture, then how can we know for sure if certain teachings are of God or not. Adam God and Blood atonment no longer are believed to be true, yet the Prophet spoke about them, and claimed they were Gods words.

Then look at number 2,4,9 and 11. The 4 standerd works dont speak on those subjects, but it's ok, because the Prophet is more important than the standerd works. Or the Prophet cannot lead the Church astray, well if he teaches something and some believe it and others do not, is the Church going astray?

What about 9, the Prophet can receive revelation on any matter, Well it appers he received revelation on matters that the Church no longer believes.

What about 11, The Proud and learned have difficulty following the Prophet, It appears all the LDS who cannot follow the Prophet in these teachings that they clearly taught on, are Proud. In part two, I will post what I believe are changing Doctrines, I will Give verses as I always do to support these Ideas I will challange, And I will be waiting to be accused of not giving evidence of the views I hold even though I will provide evidence. Rick b

Witnessing tips. Part3

This picks up where part two leaves off.

Now the Mormon most likely will respond as if you are just attacking their church. I suggest responding along these lines. In the P of GR P., under Joseph Smith 2:18-19, it says, “18:My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right and which I should join.19: I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the personage who addressed me said that ALL THEIR CREEDS WERE AN ABOMINATION IN HIS SIGHT; THAT THOSE PROFESSORS WERE ALL CORRUPT; THAT THEY DRAW NEAR TO ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEARTS ARE FAR FROM ME, THEY TEACH FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN, HAVING A FORM OF GODLINESS, BUT THEY DENY THE POWER THEREOF.”

In verse 17 it is God the Father and the Son speaking about the state of the Christian Church to Joseph Smith. We are not attacking, we are just responding to Joseph Smith’s statement about our church. Also, read to the Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10: “And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the lamb of god, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of God belongeth to the great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth”.

The LDS church teaches that if we do not belong to the Latter Day Saint’s church, then we belong to the church of the devil and are the whore of all the earth. This is a strong statement from a group of people saying they never attack any other beliefs and they are upset we are defending ourselves. Read also “Church of the Devil”, pg. 137; Christendom and Christian Era, pg. 131; and Christians and Christianity, pg. 132, all in Mormon Doctrine. Then read under “First Vision”, page 285-286 in Mormon doctrine. These all give really good descriptions of how Christians are viewed by the Mormon church. If they accuse us of attacking the Mormon Church, they better read up in their own books.

Joseph Smith said the B.O.M. is “the keystone to our religion” H.C. 4:46. He also said, “Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion?” on pg. 71 in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. So if we show their foundation is built on sand and their belief is unstable, then we can proceed to show them the rock upon which the true church is built and the corner stone is Jesus Christ.

The Mormons believe in grace plus works. An example you can use is: If you were on a beach that had a lifeguard and you were swimming then started to drown, a lifeguard would not just run out and try to save you. Otherwise, in your panic you could kill both the lifeguard and yourself. He will wait until you tire out and start to go down. We cannot kill or pull down Jesus who is our lifeguard, but we could say our screaming and thrashing is our works. They really cannot do anything to save us, they will just tire us out, and we will drown and die. If we call out for the lifeguard “Jesus” to save us, he will, but not while we try to do it ourselves. You can give other ideas and do a bible study and teach the Mormon about grace plus works. This was just one example I like to use.

Something the Mormon might say is that you are only pointing out the apparent bad things in our church and you never point out the good things. If this happens then politely point out that you agree with the Mormon Church on the issues like, marriage is good, homosexuality is a sin, theft is a sin, murder is a sin, ect. Point out a few things you know you agree on and say something like, “See, we agree on some things.” But then point out these good things cannot save you. What happens if you believe many good things yet are wrong on who Jesus is? You may also go from here to wherever you left off.

A question I am asked a lot is, do the Mormons use a normal bible like believers or do they have there own bible like the JW’S? The answer is yes and no. Yes, because they use the K.J.V and it is the same as we use. The only difference would be is that they have Mormon footnotes that we don’t believe in. The no part is that they do have what is called the Joseph Smith’s “New Translation” of the Bible. Here is another good chance to open a talk. This subject is one I use with people like the “Mormon Answer Man.“ D and C 74:3-4 says, “3.Now, verily I say unto you my servants, Joseph Smith Jun, and Sidney Rigdon, saith the Lord, it is expedient to translate again; 4.And, inasmuch as it is practicable, to preach in the regions round about until conference; and after that it is expedient to continue the work of Translation until it be finished.”

Notice that the Lord told them to do this work and to finish the work. Now add 1 Nephi 3:7 to this. “And it came to pass that I Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.“ When I talk to Mormons I will say, “You know how people have a favorite Bible verse? Well, I have a favorite verse in the B.O.M. and this is it.” You can use this verse when talking about how the Mormons need to be perfect and keep the whole law. Point out how this verse says that God will make it possible for them to be perfect and ask why they can’t seem to follow this logic.

Anyway, back to the J.S.T of the Bible. You might be able to back order a copy of the 1993-1994 Church Almanac from the local Mormon bookstore. On page 339, under 1833, July 2, it says, “The prophet Joseph Smith finished the Translation of the Bible.” In the 2003 Almanac on page 536, under 1883, July 2, it says, “The prophet Joseph Smith finished the Translation of the New Testament.” I believe that whatever year we happen to be in, you could buy an updated Almanac and find the year 1883, look under July 2, and it will say this. If it only says he finished the New Testament, try and get the 93-94 edition that says he finished the whole Bible. The reason why is that in the J.S.T. of the Bible, it says on page 10: “COMPLETION” POSSIBLY NOT FINAL. Then, on page 11 it says Mormon authors Sperry and Van Wagoner have pointed out that the Psalms are evidence of the incompleteness of the translation.

On page 258 of the book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1989 version, he says and I quote, “My feelings at the present time are that, inasmuch as the Lord Almighty has preserved me until today, He will continue to preserve me, by the united faith and prayers of the saints, until I have fully accomplished my mission in this life.” It appears that Joseph Smith was wrong, and he did not fully accomplish his mission. Part of his mission given by God in D and C was to finish the J.S.T. and it said right in there he did not finish the work. Point out that either Joseph Smith was a false prophet or God is a liar/failure for not keeping Joseph Smith alive to finish his job given by God Himself.

In the J.S.T. of the Bible, the first 24 pages talk about all this plus lots of other fun stuff to point out. I suggest buying a copy to use with the Mormon. Point out that in the D and C and the Church Almanac, Joseph Smith was told by God to finish it; in the B.O.M. says that God will grant you the ability to finish what he told you to do. But in the J.S.T., it teaches that it is not finished. So what is the deal - is it, or is it not? Also, they sell the J.S.T. in the local Mormon bookstore and the Mormon will admit that parts of the J.S.T. are found in the footnotes of the B.O.M. and D and C. Plus, a good portion of the P of GR P is the same as the J.S.T., yet they don’t carry it, pass it out, or use it.

The Mormon will say that the Reorganized Latter Day Saints own the rights to the J.S.T. and therefore, it is not trustworthy. I point out that it is kind of funny how they don’t trust the Bible because the Church fell into total apostasy, yet the Lord tells Joseph Smith to fix the Bible and then the Lord allows it to be re-corrupted by falling to the Reorganized Church? That makes zero sense. Also, why does the local Mormon bookstore sell it if you don’t use it? Something you can point out to the Mormon is that they don’t use the J.S.T because they feel it has been corrupted by the RLDS, yet it can be found within the footnotes of their books. Please tell me who decides which verses were good to use and which verses were corrupted? Therefore, you cannot use the rest.

Most of the time, it will get the Mormon thinking without a response, but you also will get a stupid response here and there. There are 13 Articles of Faith, and number 8 says, “We believe the Bible to be the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God.” Personally, I like to use the J.S.T. on the Mormon. What I tend to do is prepare ahead verses I know I will use with the Mormon and check them in the J.S.T. If they are not found in the J.S.T. that means Joseph Smith did not mess with them. Then, I bring up a verse to the Mormon in the K.J.V. I remind him that if he uses the J.S.T. in his footnotes and God told Joseph Smith to finish the book and your church claims he did finish it, then, due to the fact that Joseph Smith did not change it, there is an implication that God was fine with the way it was. Therefore, we now can go on to what the verse means. For example, the Mormons believe in grace plus works. In Romans 3:28 it says, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” (K.J.V.) Now in Romans 3:28 of the J.S.T. it says, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law.”

Here is a mistake that no one caught, but can work to your benefit. I call it a mistake because the Mormon believes in grace plus works, but also down in verse 16 in the J.S.T it teaches grace plus works. The J.S.T. contradicts itself in this area, so point out how the Mormon Church teaches works, yet according to God, works is wrong. Another one would be in Isaiah where there are lots of verses that teach God knows of no other Gods besides Him. In the J.S.T., these verses were never messed with, so you can point out that they were never touched, therefore they must mean what they say.

The Mormon Church teaches what is called the pre-existence. They believe we were spirits born in heaven and then when we were born into earth here, we were born forgetting the pre-existence. It is more in-depth than this, but this is just a simple form of it. The thing I like to point out to the Mormon is in Job where God says to Job, “Where were you when I created the heavens and earth and did all that was done?” Tell the Mormon Titus and Hebrews point out that God cannot lie. If we were really with God before being sent to earth, why did God not just say to Job, “Don’t you remember when I did all this since you were with me?”

For God to say, “Where were you?” implies we were not there, otherwise God lied which it is impossible for Him to do. The Mormon will usually say that the Bible says, “I knew you before you were formed.” You can respond however you want, but I respond by saying that it is like a carpenter who puts plans on paper to build a house. He knows what the house looks like, even though plans are on paper and it is not built.

Another question I like to ask the Mormon is: “If the gospel means good news and you say you believe the good news, then what exactly is the good news of your belief?” They have always told me that it is the fact that the Mormon Church has “Living Prophets” and new “ongoing” revelations. It could change depending on the Mormon, but that is generally what I am told. I will then point out that if they have no hope of salvation and they have hundreds of laws to keep how is this good. To help you out with this logic, you can go to this website: (www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/followingthebrethren.htm. If an error occurs here, go to www.utlm.org. This is the Tanners web site. You should be able to find the Fourteen Fundamentals in following the Prophet. They were given at Brigham Young University and by the former Mormon Prophet/President Ezra Taft Benson. I don't think any Mormon would argue with you if you show them these. All 14 give scripture - both ours (“The Bible”) and theirs - to back these statements up.

I won’t list all 14, but I will list the ones I like the best and use most often with the list of questions I ask. These are directly quoted:

FIRST: The Prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

SECOND: The living Prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

THIRD: The living Prophet is more important to us than a dead Prophet.

FOURTH: The Prophet will never lead the Church astray.

SIXTH: The Prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the lord”, to give us scripture.

ELEVENTH: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the Prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

FOURTEENTH: The Prophet and the presidency--the living Prophet and the first presidency--follow them and be blessed--reject them and suffer.

You can use these anyway you want or how you feel the Lord is leading you. Here are some ways I use these sayings from the prophet. Remember, I pointed out how the Prophet Joseph Smith taught that the B.O.M. is the keystone to their religion in H.C. 4:46. In the book Teachings, on page 71 Joseph Smith said, “Take away the book of Mormon and the revelations and where is our religion.” Then, according to number 2, you could just throw away the B.O.M. and listen to the Prophet. Then if the Mormon says, “Well that is nonsense add number 3 and say Joseph Smith might have been a Prophet but he is now dead and the living Prophet supersedes the dead one. Then add number 4 to it also and say remember the Prophet will not lead the Church astray.

Now another one I like to ask Mormons and even people like the “Mormon answer man” is found in the J.S.T. on page 10 under the heading “Completion” possibly not final. It goes on to say “The angel who visited Joseph Smith on the night of September 21, 1823, quoted the Prophet Malachi as follows”

“For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly shall burn as stubble, for they that cometh shall burn them saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch...

Behold, I will reveal unto you the priesthood by the hand of Elijah the Prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord...

And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers; if it were not so the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming.”

It goes on to say “This differs at important points from the King James Version of Malachi, but the Inspired Version is identical with the King James Version.” The above verse is from chapter 4 in Malachi. Now some of the problems we have is this. In both versions it says “Thus saith the Lord” implying God said so, so did God forget what he said, otherwise the angel misquoted what the Lord spoke but then that also is problem. The next option is Joseph wrote it down wrong but then that would mean 2 things, 1. He was not a true Prophet of God and 2, he failed in his mission according to both D and C 1:14 and D and C 74 and according to former president Ezra Taft Benson who gave the 14 fundamentals of following the brethren. I have shown this to many Mormons as of yet nobody can seem to give me an answer, they all just say I don’t know what to tell you. The other thing about all this also is Joseph Smith did not included the book of Malachi in the J.S.T. which would imply to me, that nothing was wrong with that book, Therefore how could it be misquoted? I say nothing was wrong with it because the reason it was “Fixed” the bible that is, by Joseph Smith was God told him the Bible had errors in it (A of F number 8). And only this misquoted verse appears in the book so it really makes no sense?





Now lets look at a couple of the really stupid stories in the B.O.M. I would not say to a Mormon these stories are really stupid, I would say how could the B.O.M. be truly inspired with stories like these in it. I might only point out these stories as the Mormon is getting ready to leave, just say here is one last thing to think about when you read your B.O.M. and come across these stories.

This is one story I just recently came across as I read through the B.O.M. Read Alma chapter 55 and I will just point out a few things in this story. First in the Word of Wisdom found in D and C chapter 89 it teaches a Mormon is not allowed to drink alcohol. Now you might think this is not a major doctrine so why bother, here is why. I have pointed out to the Mormon Jesus drank wine and turned water to wine before, and they just responded that it was non-alcoholic wine, in other words just grape juice. So I would point out how Jesus was accused of being a drunkard and you cannot get drunk off of non-alcoholic wine.

Now here is where it relates to the story in Alma 55. In Hebrews 13:8 it says 8:Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. In Moroni 10:19 it also teaches that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. But in Alma 55 we find that they were drinking wine to the point they got drunk, And this wine came from the Mormon prophet Moroni. Why can he drink wine but nobody else, This just tells me (my) God is a changing God.

Now more on this story is this. The Lamanites and Nephites were fighting each other and so the Nephites did not want to shed blood so they sent a few of there people over to the Lamanites camp pretending to be Lamanites and brought there wine and got them all drunk and when everybody was good and drunk they took them with out force.

Now to go along with a God who never changes lets add this. Black people today at one time were considered cursed by God and could never hold the priesthood. But later there was a revelation given by God that stated the blacks could hold the priesthood. This revelation was given in Salt Lake City in 1978,now this poses a problem? The problem is the black people are still black, and this implies they still have the mark of the curse. Yet we read in 3 Nephi 2:15 (And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites). Why would God lift the cursed skin from these people back then but not today? Since 1978 till today is about 25 years. The Scriptures teach nothing is impossible for God, but appears it is, and as I pointed out the God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. That would appear to be false also. Now for another good story. Read Ether 2:16-25

This story really makes God look stupid. In short the brother of Jared was told by God himself to build a barge, and it was built so airtight that the brother of Jared went back to God and said we have no light in side to see by and no air to breath. So then God tells him to drill a hole in the top and the bottom of the barge, then to put plugs in the hole to keep water from coming in. And God even states if you pull a plug and water comes in put the plug back in and pull the other plug instead, this implies water will come in.

I talked to a Mormon about this story once and pointed out how, if water comes in then it will displace air, therefore you will have less air to breath and eventually you will keep filling up with water to the point where it will sink or you will drown. Plus all the things in the ship will get destroyed by water. I pointed out how if you pull what you think is the plug up top implying you are upright and you pull it and water comes in then it means one of two things, you are either under water and therefore you would sink or you were turned upside down. And if you keep getting thrown about to the point where you cannot tell which way is up then you can or will be seriously hurt.

The response I received from the Mormon is (Rick) you just don’t understand fully what you just read. I really believe this is a good story to show how the B.O.M. cannot be inspired by God it really makes him look stupid. Ok now lets move on to things found in the B.O.M.

We will look at a few things you can point out and say did this really happen or how can this book be truly inspired with things like this in it. Just in about half of the book of Mormon I put together a list of around 110 things either really stupid or that are Christian theology taken from the bible that Mormon's deny like the trinity, or saved by grace alone. I will not list everything so it would be best if you go through and read it and put together your own list. A lot of what is listed is only parts of a verse to say on space and time, please read for context before pointing this stuff out to the Mormon. Nothing is twisted or taken out of context, I just do not want to make an entire book here so it is easier to just list the part I want to focus on.

1 Nephi 1:2: The Jews use the language of the Egyptians.

1 Nephi 1:8: And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he THOUGHT HE SAW GOD sitting upon his throne.

How can you say I thought I saw god? You either did or did not.

1 Nephi 16:18: And it came to pass that as I Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine steel.

How can you break a bow made of fine steel? You could take cheap steel and beat it over a rock or on something very hard and try as you might you will have a really hard time trying to break it. Also if you have a bow you will do all you can not to use it in such a way as to possibly break it in such a careless manor.

Enos 20: They ate raw meat.

Every body knows Gold, Diamonds and Pearls are rare therefore most precious but have you ever heard of ZIFF as a precious metal.

Mosiah 11:8: Ziff (a precious thing) king Noah used. To this day it has never been heard of or found. It must be really precious and rare to still be undiscovered.

Alma 10:4-9: First the guy (Amulek) in this story says in verses 5:Never the less after all this I never have known much of the ways of the Lord, and his mysteries and marvelous power. I say I never had known much of these things; but behold; I mistake, for I have seen much of his mysteries and his marvelous power.

So which is it? Then it goes on to say that Amulek admits he openly rebelled against God and is living in rebellion to Him. Then God sends and Angel to him telling him I will use you this day to feed a Prophet of God. That would be like God speaking to Charles Mansion and saying I will use you this day to feed Billy Graham.

Now in Alma 10:17: This same Amulek who just admitted he was rebelling against God, so we know it is not an Angel in the form of a man or God himself in the form of a man goes on in verse 17 to say he (Amulek) perceived their thoughts. How can a mortal man know your thoughts or read your mind so to speak. Only God can do this. It is not stated that God gave him the power to do so. In case a Mormon says this is the reason it happened.

Alma 13:18: Claims Melchizedek had a Father, this denies the Bible.

Alma 19:29: Jesus is mentioned but the date is B.C. 90. The reason why this is mentioned is because Jesus took the queen by the hand and lifted her up. But there are many verses that talk about the “Coming” in the future time of Jesus. So is he coming or is he here already?

Alma 21:6: We do believe God will save ALL men. Well they believe wrong because we know not all men will be saved. The B.O.M. even teaches some will go to hell?

Alma 24:19: And thus we see that they buried their weapons of peace, or they buried the weapons of war, for peace. Which is it?

Now lets move on to the Doctrine in the B.O.M.

Most of this will be self explanatory otherwise if needed it will be explained why it is here.

First the phrase “And it came to pass” is used something like 1,600 times in the B.O.M. I am not sure of the exact number. But this phrase alone would remove around 20 pages of the B.O.M alone.

1 Nephi 2:19: And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying; blessed art thou, Nephi, because of thy faith, for thou hast sought me diligently, with lowliness of heart. This is listed because he searched for God and it would stand to reason he search the scriptures. And many Mormons only pray about this not search them.

1 Nephi 3:7: The Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them. In other words the Mormon is taught to live according to the law, but they fail at this. According to this verse they should not fail and should be able to fulfill the entire law if this is what God real requires of them as they are taught.

1 Nephi 11:21: Behold the Lamb of God yea, even the son of the Eternal Father. If you need to pull out the dictionary to define Everlasting or Endless with the Mormon I suggest you do it. According to this verse and others in the B.O.M. they state God is Eternal or Endless yet on pg 345 of Teachings it says God was one a man that exalted to Godhood.

To prove this point out D and C 132:4 to the Mormons and they will think you are going to argue the issue of plural wives. Verse 4:For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant. Ask what exactly everlasting means. This is how you can get them to define everlasting in their words. Then go back to the dictionary and the issue of god.

1 Nephi 11:32: Everlasting God

1 Nephi 13:6: I beheld this great and Abominable Church; and I saw the devil was the foundation of it. Here is an example of how if the Mormon says you’re picking on my Church, let them know this is how they view our church. Anyone that is not part of there Church belongs to the Devil.

1 Nephi 13:40: That the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be Saved. First it says the lamb who is Jesus is the Son of God, This is important because there are verses that say the Devil is an Angel. If Jesus was an Angel then how can he know be a son.

I know they will say we will all be sons some day. Point out in Hebrews 1:5 For which of the Angels did he ever say: You are my son today I have begotten you. Hebrews 5:5 repeats this. Then add to this Titus 1:2 God cannot lie. Hebrews 6:18, It is impossible for God to lie. Now the Mormon might say well we don't trust the Bible because it is corrupted, so point out Enos 6: And I Enos, knew that God could not lie.

So go back to Hebrews 1:5 and 5:5. Point out this is God saying this and he cannot lie. If they stay and continue to talk you’re doing good.

2 Nephi 2:7-9: These verses say Jesus offers himself as a sacrifice for Sin, to answer the ends of the law. And that no flesh can dwell in the presence of God save it be through the merits and mercy, and grace of the holy messiah who layth down his life. They that believe in him should be saved. No mention anywhere of any works. Again God cannot lie.

Mormons believe God is Omniscience meaning knows all things, as do I. My point in this is, if I can see no mention of works in these verses and it leads me to believe no works are needed to be saved, and therefore if they really are needed then I would think God is smart enough to figure this out. And not leave me with many unanswered questions that would cause me to not be saved.

2 Nephi 2:17-18: Teaches the Devil was an Angel of God and fell from heaven then deceived Adam and Eve to cause them to get kicked out of the garden. Yet Mormons believe it was God’s design for this to happen. I don't believe it was Gods design for Lucifer to fall, he had free will and chose to fall. I don't believe he was created to become evil.

2 Nephi 9:8-9: Says God the Father is Eternal and that we can end up like Lucifer being shut out in misery forever. No mention of a second chance or baptism after death.

2 Nephi 24:12-15: These verses are very much like Isaiah talking about the fall of Lucifer from Heaven. This verse says Lucifer was thrown out of Heaven for trying to be like the most High God. What is good about this verse is it goes against what Mormons believe about Jesus and Lucifer going to God with there own plans for the redemption of earth.

It also says, God is the most High God. How can this be so if God had a Father who before him was a God. If it is the Mormons goal to attain Godhood why was it wrong for Lucifer to try doing the same thing?

2 Nephi 26:12: Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God. Notice it says THE Eternal God. Was Jesus an Angel that became a God or is he GOD?

2 Nephi 27:12: This verse is speaking about the B.O.M. it does not mention the book by name but it mentions being viewed by 3 witnesses and how they shall testify of it’s Truth. So if this book is true why do Mormons not truly believe these things. Mormon Doctrine that is used today truly goes against the teachings of the B.O.M.

To go along with the last verse here is,

2 Nephi 31:21: And now, Behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven where by man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the Doctrine of Christ, and the only and True Doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God with out end. Amen. The Trinity and Salvation with out works is also mentioned.

Jacob 1:19: Says if we do not teach the word of God with all diligence, then the blood of the people will be upon our heads. Point out as the Mormon is getting ready to leave, because they feel you are just picking on them that they are following this verse by leaving. Point out that they are not enduring like the Mormons of old. Then add for fun this next verse as they are leaving.

Alma 26:29-30 29: And we have entered into their houses and taught them, and we have taught them in their streets; yea, and we have taught them upon their hills; and we have also entered into their temples and their synagogues and taught them; and we have been cast out, and mocked, and spit upon, and smote upon our cheeks; and we have been stoned, and taken and bound with strong cords, and cast into prison; and through the power and wisdom of God we have been delivered again. 30: And we have suffered all manner of afflictions, and all this, that perhaps we might be the means of saving some soul; and we supposed that our joy would be full if perhaps we could be the means of saving some.

Now remember we are not letting the Mormon in to teach us. But the Mormon thinks he/she is doing that. Yet when we point out error they tend to run. Just say how can I truly believe if I notice a perceived problem, yet just overlook it and believe it in blind faith. In light of Scriptures teaching to search the Scriptures, and when Scriptures teach you have the “Truth” yet you wont share it. Point out they most likely had questions themselves and someone took the time to talk and not run. See where I'm going here?

Jacob 3:11: That ye may not become Angels to the Devil, to be cast into that lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. Mormons deny the hell, Christians believe in.

Jacob 6:10: And according to the power of justice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire and brimstone is endless torment.

Jacob 7:23

Alma 14:1 17:2 33:2: All say search the Scriptures, which the Mormons don’t seem to do.

Mosiah 1:6: O my sons, I would that ye should remember that these sayings are true, and also that these records are true. This is referring to all the records that end up forming the B.O.M.

If these things are true then ask why Mormonism denies these teachings.

Mosiah 3:5: The lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all Eternity to Eternity. So was God, God in the beginning or was he a man that became a God?

Mosiah 3:11-13: Says Jesus Blood Atones, for sin of fallen man. And Salvation only comes through faith and repentance in Christ alone. No mention of works. It also says, Christ sent his Holy Prophets to declare this to us.

Mosiah 3:17-19: Salvation only in the name of Christ, no works mentioned.

Mosiah 7:26-28: Christ is the Father God. Not a God.

Mosiah 12:31-34: Now it teaches you must follow the law to be saved. So which is it, grace alone, or by works.

Mosiah 15:1-5: This teaches the Trinity, and that God the Father is Eternal.

Mosiah 28:3: The Gospel should be declared unto every creature, because their is endless torment that awaits them other wise.

Mosiah 28:7: Eternal life by believing. No mention of good works or having to enter the temple to be saved.

Alma 3:26-27: People judged according to their works. Resulting in Eternal joy or misery. No mention of second chance or baptism for the dead.

Mosiah 15:26-27: If you die in your Sins you will perish for the Lord cannot redeem you after death. So much for second chance theology or baptism for the dead.

Mosiah 25:13-18: People are baptizing with no mention of having any priesthood authority to do so.

Mosiah 26:22-27: People that are redeemed by Christ can sit on his right hand in heaven. No mention of 3 degrees of glory. Also if you are not redeemed you will burn in everlasting fire.

Mosiah 26:30-35: As often as you repent you will be Forgiven. This denies Mormon Doctrine and the Miracle of Forgiveness. Did Spencer Kimbal not read this part?

Alma 7:10: The Virgin Mary was over shadowed. This denies what Mormons teach and the verse I already quoted.

Alma 10:2: Handwriting on the wall. This is similar to the account in Daniel.

Alma 10:28: Some one is called a child of the Devil. Mormons teach we are all brothers. Even brothers of Lucifer. Many Mormons have told me Lucifer is there brother. But the context in this saying does not imply we are all brothers as Mormons teach.

Alma 11:21-41: A debate between to people asking if there is only one true God or not. Turns out there is only one true God.

Alma 11:44: The Trinity, Which Mormonism denies.

Alma 12:14-17: Judgment according to our works, ending in a second death.

Alma 13:7-9: Jesus no beginning of days.

Alma 13:20: The Scriptures are before you. (B.O.M.) If you deny them it is to your own destruction.

Alma 19:36: The Spirit was poured out upon all people. This is important because Mormonism teaches the Spirit can only be in one place at one time. So how can he be poured out upon many people at one time. Page 359, in M.D under Holy Ghost says (He can only be in one place at one time). Then on page 753, of M.D under Spirit of the Lord it says (The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, he constitutes the third person in the Trinity, the Godhead). It is interesting they mention the Trinity in this manor when they deny the Trinity.

Also on page 753, it goes on to say (The Spirit which is the Holy Ghost is a revelator). So point out the Holy Spirit is the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost or Spirit according to Apostle Bruce m, can only be in one place at one time. Did he not read Alma 19:36?

Alma 21:9: Redemption through Christ alone. No works or temple service mentioned.

Alma 24:9-11: There is forgiveness for the person(s) who commit murder. This denies the teachings of Spencer Kimbal in the book Miracle. Again did he not read this part?

According to Mormonism the atonement took place in the garden of Gethsemane not on the Cross. It happened when Jesus sweated great drops of blood. Yet in this next verse it says,

Alma 24:13: Through the Blood of the Son of our great God, which shall be SHED for the atonement of our sins. Notice it did not say sweated, and you cannot shed blood by sweating.

Alma 26:14: The most High God. Again if there is a God(s) above God the Father how can he be the most High?

Mormons pray for a burning in the bosom to know if the B.O.M. is true. Yet in this next verse it denies that.

Alma 30:43-46 Korihor asks Alma for a sign to prove God is real. Alma rebukes him saying the Scriptures are laid out, You also have the testimony of the Holy Prophets and the creation as a sign. And he rebukes him harshly, Show this to Mormons when they mention the burning in the bosom.

Alma 30:60: Says the Devil drags people to Hell. I thought there was no Hell?

Well this is only really just a few verses out of the hundreds. This is only half the book at best. So now let’s take a look at the Book Doctrines of Salvation. This book was put out in 1956, it is now out of print. I believe you could find it in a used bookstore, or get a copy off of ebay. Most Mormons I met have this or read it so they already should be familiar with it.

This is the thing I want to point out. Joseph Smith said. “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book”. History of the Church vol 4, pg 461 and Mormon Doctrine pg 99 under Book of Mormon.

He also said “Take away the book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none” Teachings pg 71, and pg 99 of M.D also. But now in Doctrines of Salvation vol 3, pg 198 Joseph F Smith 10th president and Prophet of the Church said, “In my judgment there is no book on earth yet come to man as important as the book known as the Doctrine and Covenants, with all due respect to the Book of Mormon, and the Bible, and the Pearl of Great Price, which we say our standards in Doctrine. The book of Doctrine and Covenants to us stands in a peculiar position above them all.”

I am going to tell you why. When I say that do not for a moment think I do not value the Book of Mormon, the Bible, and the Pearl of Great Price, just as much as any man that lives; I think I do. I do not know of anybody who has read them more and I appreciate them; they are wonderful; they contain Doctrine and Revelation and Commandments that we should heed; but the Bible is a History containing the Doctrine and Commandments given to the people anciently. That applies also to the Book of Mormon. It is the Doctrine and the History and the Commandments of the people who dwelt upon this continent anciently.

But this Doctrine and Covenants contains the word of God to those who dwell here now. It is our book. It belongs to the Latter-Day Saints. More precious than gold, the Prophet says we should treasure it more than the riches of the whole earth.

Notice he said about the B.O.M. It is Doctrine and History of people that dwelt here. Yet Joseph Smith said the B.O.M contains the fullness of the Everlasting Gospel. It would appear as if another Prophet of the Church disagrees with him. But lets go one step further with this thought. Lets add what Ezra Taft Benson said, who also happens to be a Prophet and President of the Church as these two were also.

Under the 14 fundamentals of following the brethren, it says under number 2 “The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works”. Of these 3 prophets who is right? They all disagree on what is the most important. Remember number 4 says the “Prophet will never lead the Church astray.” They’re not necessarily leading the Church astray, but there is confusion as to who is right.

If the D and C is more important then the B.O.M. why is it not passed out by the Mormon Missionary’s. Yet if the Prophet is more important, why pass out any book? It leaves to many questions. If it is true that the B.O.M. is nothing more then a recorded of ancient people, then how can I get nearer to God by reading it as Joseph Smith states?

Now let me touch on the Journal of Discourses. I personally like to talk about the Adam God Doctrine. But whatever topic you choose from the Journals, I find most Mormons will say we don’t use or trust them because they were written in short hand and cannot be accurate. They might also say they did not have the same technology back then as we do today that is why they do not trust it..

I will point out a few things. 1. In the newspaper almost daily I see a section set-aside for corrections. If we can make many mistakes today with our “Technogaly” then we should except they also were not perfect.

2. When I discuss Adam God, Mormons, say that was just his mere opinion. Point out that the “Prophet will not lead the Church” astray number 4. The Prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the lord” to give us Scripture. number 6. If he does not need to say “Thus saith the Lord”, then how can we decide if he is giving us Scripture or his mere opion.

To show it was not mere opion read to then the Adam God teaching, and show them the part that says this. “My next sermon will be to both Saint and Sinner.” “One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day.” This does not sound like mere opion. He goes on to later say, “Every man upon the earth, professing Christian or non professing, must here it, and will know it sooner or later.”

Now for the best part. “Now let all who may hear these Doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their Salvation or Damnation.” Notice he said they are Doctrines. Then in volume 13 B Young says on pg 95, “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture.” On page 264 of volume 13 Orson Hyde another Apostle of the Church said, “When B Young sends forth his Discourses they are as good as Scripture found in the Bible.”

If this still does not get the Mormon thinking, you can point out in both the Mormon Encyclopedia and M.D. That they both say that the, (King Follet Discourses) given by J Smith in volume 6, is his greatest sermon ever given. A lot of today's doctrine comes from that sermon, so why can they pick and chose from the Journals yet I cannot.

You can also point out that in 1925 the Mormon church put out a book called (Discourses of B Young). They republished it in the mid 50’s. The entire book is sayings of B Young taken from the Journal of Discourses. The Church feels most of what he said was good. It is funny though that between the 1925 edition and the 50’s edition there have been around 200 pages removed.

One other thing you can show the Mormon is page 216 in volume 14 of the J.O.D. president George A Smith said “If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if it’s preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak.”

Well it is my goal to better equip the saints to witness to Mormons. This is just a small amount of information in reality to what is really out there. I am trying to give some ideas on how to possibly approach Mormonism, with the books most people have or can get. I also just showed a few things with the “Rare” or hard to get books for people who either have them or will get them.

It is my desire to see Mormons come to Christ, If anyone would like to write me with questions or looking for ideas please feel free to write me at my email account. It is (rickshelli@hotmail.com) please put in the subject line Mormonism so I know it is not junk mail or a virus. Please feel free to hand out this information to who ever you feel will benefit from it. This is to be given freely to help equip the saints. I pray this will be a blessing to all who need the help and read it. RICK BEAUDIN.