Thursday, February 28, 2013

Mormonism teaches Grace PLUS WORKS, Notice The works part that you did not touch. Sadly Many LDS avoid mentiong the works part.

Read what after all we can do means.:

'After all we can do' includes extending our best effort. 'After all we can do' includes living His commandments. 'After all we can do' includes loving our fellowmen and praying for those who regard us as their adversary. 'After all we can do' means clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and giving 'succor [to] those who stand in need of [our] succor' (Mosiah 4:15)—remembering that what we do unto one of the least of God's children, we do unto Him. (See Matt. 25:34-40; D&C 42:38.) 'After all we can do' means leading chaste, clean, pure lives, being scrupulously honest in all our dealings and treating others the way we would want to be treated. ("After All We Can Do," Christmas Devotional, Salt Lake City, Utah, Dec. 9, 1982; quoted in Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson.)" ("Savior accomplished atoning sacrifice through His grace," LDS Church News, 02/03/96, page 14.)

“President Harold B. Lee treated the topic of working out one's salvation in one of his books, Stand Ye in Holy Places: 'We hear much from some persons of limited understanding about the possibility of one's being saved by grace alone. But it requires the explanation of another prophet to understand the true doctrine of grace as he explained in these meaningful words: "For," said this prophet, "we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Ne. 25:23.) Truly we are redeemed by the atoning blood of the Savior of the world, but only after each has done all he can to work out his own salvation.'"("Work out salvation with fear and trembling," LDS Church News, 09/14/91, page 14.)

“As is the case with all gospel principles, the doctrine of individual accountability grows out of the atoning sacrifice of Christ. Teaching these principles, Nephi testified that we are saved by grace, but only "after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23.) It is by the grace of Christ that we have granted to us the materials of life with which we can build, but God does not do the building for us. The responsibility of building with those materials is ours. The plan of salvation is in a large measure a do-it-yourself project” (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Seeking the Spirit, page 99.)

“In the plan of salvation God does for human beings only what they cannot do for themselves. Man must do all he can for himself. The doctrine is that we are saved by grace, 'after all we can do' (2 Ne. 25:23)” (Robert J. Matthews, A Bible! A Bible!, page 186.)

“To explain how much confidence we should have in God, were I using a term to suit myself, I should say implicit confidence. I have faith in my God, and that faith corresponds with the works I produce. I have no confidence in faith without works. My faith is, when we have done all we can, then the Lord is under obligation, and will not disappoint the faithful; he will perform the rest” (President Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, page 155.)

Now another reason I ask about Grace is this, Mormonism teaches that their is no forgiveness for those who commit murder.

Doctrine and Covenants 42:18 says, "…he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."

In that vein, Joseph Fielding Smith taught, "Murderers Denied Vicarious Ordinances…we do not have the privilege of performing the ordinances for murderers who shed innocent blood, nor for those who take their own lives…If we find in our record one of this kind, we should pass him by and not attempt to do the work for him…" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:192)

I feel sorry for the Mormons and the bondage they are under. there is really no hopeful outcome for latter-day saints through vicarious temple ordinances.

according to what they teach, there is no hope for the person who commits murder (according to Mormon doctrine, doctrines of salvation, miracle of forgiveness and teachings of the prophet). Yet I wonder--have the Mormons ever given any thought to what happened to J Smith? In D and C 135:4 he says his conscience is void of offence towards God and all men, and he says "I shall die innocent." Yet in history of the church 7:102-103 it says J Smith killed 2 people. Please explain how that is dying innocent and with out offence to God or man.

Please also explain where Joseph went if a murderer cannot be forgiven? The Bible teaches us God took Moses home, yet he killed a man in cold blood in exodus. king David had Bathsheba's husband murdered so he could have her, yet God said in acts 13:22 "David is a man after my own heart." 1st John 1:9 says "if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." the "He" is God. Murder falls under both sin and unrighteousness. Titus 1:2 says God cannot lie; therefore there is only bondage according to Mormonism.

1st peter 3:15 tells us to give every man an answer for the hope that lies within us. I ask where or what is that hope within Mormonism if there is no salvation for certain people, no forgiveness for certain sins?

I also see no grace in Mormonism because here is a list of works we must do, If we dont do these we wont attain the highest heaven, so how is that grace?

The Prophet Spencer Kimball Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. He gives a list of 6 things called (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). It says When you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,

1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.

Notice it says "Obedience to the Word of Wisdom." Yet Many LDS members do not follow this. Also we read in Gospel Principles pg 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. We are not repentant if we don't sustain the authorities of the church and don't love the lord and our fellow man. Yet again many LDS do not meet this requirement.

If we do not do these things, we cannot be saved, Grace is free and comes as a result of God loving us, Not because of the works we do. Rick b

Tuesday, September 28, 2010

Helpful thoughs for christians.

As of these last few days, I have gotten an email and gone after on another website I go to to share Christ with the LDS. I keep getting called hateful and mean because I claim Mormons are not Christians. A few people keep telling me they are and I cannot say that. They claim LDS are simply because the say the name Jesus.

So for all of you Christians that get that question brought up to you, you can say this.
Why is it if LDS believe they are Christians and claim to believe the same thing we do, they will not allow us to say we are Mormon, yet teach the Gospel that we believe?

Also why is it, that LDS, RLDS, and the FLDS, all claim to follow JS, BY, believe in the Bible, Jesus, The BoM, the D and C and the Pearl of great price, yet the LDS are adiment these guys are not Mormons and cannot claim they are part of the LDS church? Mormons jump on me about saying they are not christian, when they claim to believe what I believe, yet they play the hypocrite when it come to the RLDS and the FLDS claiming to be Mormons. Just something to think about and ask the LDS.

Remember, Jesus said, Not everyone who says, LORD, LORD, shall be saved or even knows Him. You cannot simply put the name Jesus on a false teaching and have God the father say, well the name Jesus is upon that so I must honor it as my own truth. Rick

Tuesday, April 27, 2010

BoM verses the Bible Part 1

Jim Olson said to Messianic


Have you read the BOM? In what ways does it “contradict” the Bible? You realize that what you related is an opinion, and there are millions of people who have studied the BOM and are of the opinion that it does not contradict the Bible. Have you made a serious study of the BOM, or just relied upon the opinions of others?

Jim, I have read the BoM and all the standard works and here is a partial list of contradictions, their are so many I will need to do two or three parts.
I wanted to reply to you about all the contradictions I see in the BoM that do not line up with the Bible. I needed to write this up as a post and not a reply under a topic because there are way to many problems and I was so busy that by the time I was able to reply, the topic was so far down that you would not give a good reply if one at all. So, here we go.

I'm doing my own reading of the BoM too find these problems, not simply scouring the internet looking for them. The list is very long. lets start with this.

1 Nephi 1:2

2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.
Mosiah 1:4 For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time.

According to the Bible, God told the Jews to not go back to the Egyptians and you cannot show me from the Bible or history where the Jews are to use the language of the Egyptians.

Egypt is the house of bondage

Exd 13:14 And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What [is] this? that thou shalt say unto him, By strength of hand the LORD brought us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage:

Exd 13:3 And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this [place]: there shall no leavened bread be eaten.

Another one.

19 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying: Blessed art thou, Nephi, because of thy faith, for thou hast sought me diligently, with lowliness of heart.

20 And inasmuch as ye shall keep my commandments, ye shall prosper, and shall be led to a land of promise; yea, even a land which I have prepared for you; yea, a land which is choice above all other lands.

21 And inasmuch as thy brethren shall rebel against thee, they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord.

I put this down because according to the Bible, there is only one promised land and the Jews are in it. There is never any mention of any other people group, including Jews having a second promised land.

Deu 6:3

Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do [it]; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.

This is not a huge deal in the sense of a salvation issue, but it is a problem just the same.

1 Nephi 5:19 19 Wherefore, he said that these plates of brass should never perish; neither should they be dimmed any more by time. And he prophesied many things concerning his seed.

1 Nephi 6:1
1 And now I, Nephi, do not give the genealogy of my fathers in athis part of my record; neither at any time shall I give it after upon these bplates which I am cwriting; for it is given in the record which has been kept by my dfather; wherefore, I do not write it in this work.

I only bring these up because you never see any accounts in the Bible being kept on metal plates, plus we have the dead sea scrolls but we do not have any of these plates as evidence.

Deuteronomy 31:24-26

And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Nehemiah 8:8

So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused [them] to understand the reading.

Here is a problem.
1 Nephi 6:4

4 For the fulness of mine intent is that I may persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and be saved.

The reason this is a major problem and contradiction is because God created the nation of Israel to bring people to Him. If you were not a Jew then you were a Gentile, and the best you could do was convert, then enter the court of the Gentiles. So, unless you can prove from the Bible that Nephi is/was a true Jew, what he said cannot be true. God would not tell him this. In the Bible, God did use Gentiles, but not for that purpose.

Isa 49:6

And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Here is a contradiction.

10 And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.

Show me from the Bible about 3 days of darkness being a sign.

To this one I say, "Really?"

7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.

The Bible does not teach this, Read 1st John 1:8-9

Here are a bunch of verses that contradict the Bible because they mention the "Church" And according to the Bible the Church did not appear until Jesus created it when he walked among us, yet the BoM mentions the Church and all these mentions are hundreds of years before Jesus was even born.

Mosiah 25:22 And thus, not with standing there being many churches they were all one church, yea, even the church of God; for there was nothing preached in all the churches except it were repentance and faith in God.

Mosiah 26:22 22 For behold, this is my church; whosoever is baptized shall be baptized unto repentance

Alma 1:7 And it came to pass as he was going, to preach to those who believed on his word, he met a man who belonged to the church of God, yea, even one of their teachers; and he began to contend with him sharply, that he might lead away the people of the church; but the man withstood him, admonishing him with the words of God.

Alma 4:4-5,9
4 And they began to establish the church more fully; yea, and many were baptized in the waters of Sidon and were joined to the church of God; yea, they were baptized by the hand of Alma, who had been consecrated the high priest over the people of the church, by the hand of his father Alma.

5 And it came to pass in the *seventh year of the reign of the judges there were about three thousand five hundred souls that united themselves to the church of God and were baptized. And thus ended the seventh year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi; and there was continual peace in all that time.

9 And thus, in this eighth year of the reign of the judges, there began to be great contentions among the people of the church; yea, there were envyings, and strife, and malice, and persecutions, and pride, even to exceed the pride of those who did not belong to the church of God.

There are more verses about the Church, but this gets the point across.

Mat 16:18

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

How about this? Alma 7:14

14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again

Jesus spoke about being born again, prior to that it was never mention in the Bible, I suspect LDS will blow this off, but its funny how things Jesus said are being said by people that lived before He did, and were never mentioned by the Prophets in the OT.

Here is a big problem. Alma 13:18-19

18 But Melchizedek having exercised mighty faith, and received the office of the high priesthood according to the holy order of God, did preach repentance unto his people. And behold, they did repent; and Melchizedek did establish peace in the land in his days; therefore he was called the prince of peace, for he was the king of Salem; and he did reign under his father.

19 Now, there were many before him, and also there were many after wards, but none were greater; therefore, of him they have more particularly made mention.

According to the Bible, Melchizedek had no mother or father.

Hebrews 7:1-3

For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

The problem with this verse is, the scriptures were not open to everyone and anyone. They were only for the Jews, and the Gentiles did not have the word of God. Plus unlike when this was stated in the book of Acts, in Acts 17:11. At that time, they had the entire OT to go back and search. At this time, they had even less time to look back over.

Alma 17:2 Now these sons of Mosiah were with Alma at the time the angel first appeared unto him; therefore Alma did rejoice exceedingly to see his brethren; and what added more to his joy, they were still his brethren in the Lord; yea, and they had waxed strong in the knowledge of the truth; for they were men of a sound understanding and they had searched the scriptures diligently, that they might know the word of God.

Act 17:11

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Jesus was not around until the NT, so that's a problem.

Alma 19:29 And it came to pass that she went and took the queen by the hand, that perhaps she might raise her from the ground; and as soon as she touched her hand she arose and stood upon her feet, and cried with a loud voice, saying: O blessed Jesus, who has saved me from an awful hell! O blessed God, have mercy on this people!

Is this Aaron the Brother of Moses?
Alma 21:9

9 Now Aaron began to open the scriptures unto them concerning the coming of Christ, and also concerning the resurrection of the dead, and that there could be no redemption for mankind save it were through the death and sufferings of Christ, and the atonement of his blood.

Either way, it does not really matter because before Jesus came, His coming was a mystery and the prophets did not understand what was going on.

1Peter 1:10-12 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Part 2 coming later, Rick B

Thursday, March 05, 2009

Bruce R. McConkie's "Challenge

I posted this back in Jan of (06) And no one has been able to take it up and give an honest answer. I even posted it on another Blog and the only reply from an LDS person was, I could reply I just do not want to. I told her she was a liar and could not that was why she did not. I showed it to a Mormon Missionary I was sharing with, him and his partner could not answer it, so here it is again for any one who has not seen it. I am posting it again because I was told I would get the answers I am looking for. Rick b

In the Original 1958 Edition to the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R.McConkie He states In the Preface:

This Work on Mormon Doctrine Is unique--the first book of it's kind ever published.
It is the first major attempt to digest, explain, and analyze all of the important doctrines of the kingdom.
It is the first extensive compendium of the whole gospel--the first attempt to publish an encyclopedic commentary covering the whole field of revealed religion.

True, there are many Bible commentaries, dictionaries, and encyclopedias; but they all abound in apostate, sectarian notions. Also, there are many sound gospel texts on special subjects.

But never before has a comprehensive attempt been made to define and outline, in a brief manner, all of the basic principles of salvation--and to do it from the perspective of all revelation, both ancient and modern.

This work on Mormon Doctrine is designed to help persons seeking salvation to gain that knowledge of God and his laws without which they cannot hope for an inheritance in the celestial city.

Since it is impossible foe a man to be saved in ignorance of God and his laws and since a man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge of Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation, it follows that men are obligated at their peril to learn and apply the true doctrines of the gospel.

this gospel compendium will enable men, more effectively, to "teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom"; to "be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel,in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient" for them "to understand." (D and C 88:77-7

For the work itself, I assume sole and full responsibility. Observant students, however, will note that the four standard works of the Church are the chief sources of authority quoted and that literally tens of thousands of scriptural quotations and citations are woven into the text material.
Where added explanations and interpretations were deemed essential, they have been taken from such recognized doctrinal authorities as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, and Joseph Fielding Smith.

Two persons have been particularly helpful in the actual preparation of the work: 1. Velma Harvey, my very able and competent secretary, who with unbounded devotion and insight has typed manuscripts, checked references, proofread, and worked out many technical details; and 2. Joseph Fielding Smith , Jr., my brother in law, who both set the type and made many valuable suggestions as to content and construction.

Abundant needed and important counsel has also come from Milton R. Hunter, my colleague on the First Council of the Seventy; Marvin Wallin, of Bookcraft; and Thomas S. Moson, of the deseret News Press. Salt Lake City, Utah June 1, 1958 --Bruce R. McConkie.

Keep in mind Bruce stated He looks to people Like Joseph Smith and Bringham Young as recognized doctrinal authorities. So with that in mind, Is a Challenge as it were, Issued By Bruce R.McConkie.

I have read all 4 standard works. I find nothing at all in the Book of Mormon to prove it is inspired by God as LDS claim. Bruce states we can find hundreds of topics, I would like to issue a Challenge to all my Latter-day saint friends to bring forth just 10 topics of your choice, compare them to the Bible and show me how they are a more accurate display of the Gospel. Please keep in mind, I am following Acts 17:11 and 1st peter 3:15. Then after you read Bruce's Challenge, I lovingly added a list of things That LDS feel are core doctrine yet cannot be found in the BoM. This matter has everlasting eternal consequences. sincerely Rick b.

In the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R. McConkie, under the title Book of Mormon.
bruce says the Purpose of the book of mormon is this.

1. To bear record of Christ, certifying in plainness and with clarity of his divine sonship and mission, proving irrefutably that he is the Redeemer and Saviour.

2. To teach the doctrines of the gospel in such a pure and perfect way that the plan of salvation will be clearly revealed; and

3. To stand as a witness to all the world that Joseph Smith was the Lord's anointed through whom the foundation was laid for the great latter-day work of restoration. Almost all of the doctrines of the gospel are taught in the Book of Mormon with much greater clarity and perfection than those same doctrines are revealed in the Bible. Anyone who will place in parallel columns the teachings of these two great books on such subjects as the atonement, plan of salvation, gathering of Israel, baptism, gifts of the spirit, miracles, revelation, faith, Charity, ( or ANY of a HUNDRED OTHER SUBJECTS), will find conclusive proof of the superiority of the Book of Mormon teachings.

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that Elohim (God the Father in Mormonism) was once a mortal man and that he was not always God?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God has a body of flesh and bones?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God is married in heaven?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that men can become Gods?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that temple participation is necessary to become exalted?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach the blood of Christ does not cleanse certain sins?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it say there is more than one God?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it say males must hold either the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthood?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that there are "three degrees of glory"?

Tuesday, February 10, 2009

Some questions?

The questions below were questions I asked an LDS member on the Mormon Coffee Blog I post on. We were talking about the Changes in the Book of Mormon and polygamy, these two topics were 2 different threads, but they were questions I asked, so I thought I would put them out here.

1. Years ago when I was first speaking with LDS, I would say that was 12 years ago by now, Every LDS that I spoke with about these 4,000 plus mistakes denied they ever existed, now you guys admit to them. So some where along the line they have changed.

2. I own a 1920 edition plus the Newest edition, their are changes between them both, so now we have changes from the 1830 edition to the 1920 edition, then more changes from the 1920 edition to the 1980’s edition. The problem I have is, no place in these books is it footnoted that all these changes were made or why.

Then not only are their changes in the BoM, but I am lucky enough to own the original copy of the D and C and the 1888 edition of the Pearl of great price, and guess what? Their are changes from both of the originals of those to the newest editions, and guess what? No mention of those changes in the footnotes.

So you can say what you want, but it is less than honest to make changes that effect Doctrine and not mention it in a foot notes. Then with the modern printing presses their is no excuses for all these typos or errors.

Last point, the 1830 edition tells us that Jesus is God, the BoM supports Doctrine that LDS do not believe today, So Did LDS teach or believe false doctrine back in the day because of mistakes? And I suspect you will say no, but the Bigger question is, why Did God not speak to JS and say, Do not pass out the BoM or sell it because of the many Errors. Sadly God seems to be able to clearly speak to JS and clearly tell him to take on many wives, yet cannot speak to him and tell him these are mistakes in the “translation” that will effect the LDS Doctrine. Rick b

Thursday, February 05, 2009

Blogging problems.

I was saying before on here, I was having problems with my blog. I am not Tech Savvy at all. I post over on the Mormon Coffee blog, their blog was blogger at one time, but they keep changing it to better fit their needs, they were using "Intense Debate" set up, I needed to sign up with them in order to post, as a result Intense Debate was installed on my blog.

That was causing many problems, I did not know if people posted or under what topic, I was able to remove it, but as a result every person that posted under that forum, including myself, was deleted, every post, gone.

I am sorry for the problems, and now it seems, the blog is set up so no one can reply, That is something I am still trying to figure out. But I know many LDS will simply believe I am making all this up and deleted every thing on purpose, so be it, you can still write me at my email address or come post on the Mormon Coffee blog, as I spend much time on that blog. rick b

Wednesday, February 04, 2009

LDS using Deception?

GB, I posted this topic back in April of 2006, It is still on my blog and no one ever replied to it, Since I feel this fits you and you feel it fits me, lets talk about it. Now Bill let me add this, I believe you are like this and I stated why, I asked a question about a false prophecy by JS, You refused to give an honest answer and say, Yes it never came to pass but here is why, or you never said, Rick your wrong it did come to pass and here is why.

Instead you said, Jesus said this will come to pass and it never did, so either Jesus and Joseph are both Frauds, or it did come to pass and they are both Truthful. Bill, that is not answering my question. Then I even told you, I will answer your question on how it did come to pass, you will not agree with my answer, then after that you will still not answer my question, and guess what, you proved to be a wolf in sheeps clothing.

So Bill I will state up front, You need to give spefic answers with the reason why I am supposedly lying and being dishonest or I will simply remove you from the blog, I am not going to get into this, you refuse to answer question and simply come on and say, Rick your wrong because I said so, that is not an honest answer and I refuse you keep playing games with you. Below is the topic.

Topic from 2006 to discuss
I have noticed over the Years, What I feel may be the use of Deception. The Dictionary definfes Deception as,

Pronunciation: di-'sep-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : an act of deceiving
2 : something that deceives : DECEIT

Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

1: a misleading falsehood [syn: misrepresentation, deceit] 2: the act of deceiving [syn: deceit, dissembling, dissimulation] 3: an illusory feat; considered magical by naive observers [syn: magic trick, conjuring trick, trick, magic, legerdemain, conjuration, illusion]


Now the Main part of the issue of Deception I want to focus on is this:

1: a misleading falsehood [syn: misrepresentation, deceit]


In my years of sharing the Gospel with Mormons, I have noticed way to often, this Use of misleading falsehood. What I mean by, I notice this, Is this. I will talk with Mormon Missionary's for example, And I will ask them, What do you think or believe about the Bible. They will say, We(I) believe the Bible to be the word of God.

They simply stop short, But I know the Articles of faith, I point out that According to Articles of faith number 8.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

Notice, that when I ask the Mormons what they think/believe about the Bible, they seem to forget the words, as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

So simply by saying, We Believe the Bible to be the Word of God, and leaving off the rest is a form of Deception. This is allowing the LDS member to lead people to believe something that even the LDS do not believe. I notice the LDS also do this when I ask, who do you believe Jesus is, Or what do you believe About Jesus.

The Mormons will tell me they believe Jesus is the son of God. The Problem I have with this is, First off those of us who are Bible believing Christians, Believe in the Trinity and One God only. But when Mormons say they believe Jesus is the Son of God, many Christians would think the LDS are saying they believe in the Trinity and one God only. But I know as well as the LDS members that they believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers who were either Created or were once men first, This depends on which view you hold.

Either way, this again is a form of deception. I am sure some LDS members will say that Christians will or due use Deception, This may be true? But if it is I honestly am not aware of it, and I don't use deception. I feel if the LDS really do have the true Gospel, then they should have no use for lying and deception. But if they need to do that, then they really should question if they are following a true beliefs or a lie.

If LDS have examples of Christians Doing this, please post them, I am very opposed to anyone having to lie or deceive to spread the gospel. I also am posting this topic, because I want Christians to be aware of this LDS tactic and point it out when it happens. And I want the LDS to be aware of this, just in case they do this and in all honesty they never realized they were doing it.