Witnessing tips. Part2

This picks up where part 1 left off.


Now the Mormon most likely will respond as if you are just attacking their church. I suggest responding along these lines. In the P of GR P., under Joseph Smith 2:18-19, it says, “18:My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right and which I should join.19: I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the personage who addressed me said that ALL THEIR CREEDS WERE AN ABOMINATION IN HIS SIGHT; THAT THOSE PROFESSORS WERE ALL CORRUPT; THAT THEY DRAW NEAR TO ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEARTS ARE FAR FROM ME, THEY TEACH FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN, HAVING A FORM OF GODLINESS, BUT THEY DENY THE POWER THEREOF.”

In verse 17 it is God the Father and the Son speaking about the state of the Christian Church to Joseph Smith. We are not attacking, we are just responding to Joseph Smith’s statement about our church. Also, read to the Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10: “And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the lamb of god, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of God belongeth to the great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth”.

The LDS church teaches that if we do not belong to the Latter Day Saint’s church, then we belong to the church of the devil and are the whore of all the earth. This is a strong statement from a group of people saying they never attack any other beliefs and they are upset we are defending ourselves. Read also “Church of the Devil”, pg. 137; Christendom and Christian Era, pg. 131; and Christians and Christianity, pg. 132, all in Mormon Doctrine. Then read under “First Vision”, page 285-286 in Mormon doctrine. These all give really good descriptions of how Christians are viewed by the Mormon church. If they accuse us of attacking the Mormon Church, they better read up in their own books.

Joseph Smith said the B.O.M. is “the keystone to our religion” H.C. 4:46. He also said, “Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion?” on pg. 71 in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. So if we show their foundation is built on sand and their belief is unstable, then we can proceed to show them the rock upon which the true church is built and the corner stone is Jesus Christ.

The Mormons believe in grace plus works. An example you can use is: If you were on a beach that had a lifeguard and you were swimming then started to drown, a lifeguard would not just run out and try to save you. Otherwise, in your panic you could kill both the lifeguard and yourself. He will wait until you tire out and start to go down. We cannot kill or pull down Jesus who is our lifeguard, but we could say our screaming and thrashing is our works. They really cannot do anything to save us, they will just tire us out, and we will drown and die. If we call out for the lifeguard “Jesus” to save us, he will, but not while we try to do it ourselves. You can give other ideas and do a bible study and teach the Mormon about grace plus works. This was just one example I like to use.

Something the Mormon might say is that you are only pointing out the apparent bad things in our church and you never point out the good things. If this happens then politely point out that you agree with the Mormon Church on the issues like, marriage is good, homosexuality is a sin, theft is a sin, murder is a sin, ect. Point out a few things you know you agree on and say something like, “See, we agree on some things.” But then point out these good things cannot save you. What happens if you believe many good things yet are wrong on who Jesus is? You may also go from here to wherever you left off.

A question I am asked a lot is, do the Mormons use a normal bible like believers or do they have there own bible like the JW’S? The answer is yes and no. Yes, because they use the K.J.V and it is the same as we use. The only difference would be is that they have Mormon footnotes that we don’t believe in. The no part is that they do have what is called the Joseph Smith’s “New Translation” of the Bible. Here is another good chance to open a talk. This subject is one I use with people like the “Mormon Answer Man.“ D and C 74:3-4 says, “3.Now, verily I say unto you my servants, Joseph Smith Jun, and Sidney Rigdon, saith the Lord, it is expedient to translate again; 4.And, inasmuch as it is practicable, to preach in the regions round about until conference; and after that it is expedient to continue the work of Translation until it be finished.”

Notice that the Lord told them to do this work and to finish the work. Now add 1 Nephi 3:7 to this. “And it came to pass that I Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.“ When I talk to Mormons I will say, “You know how people have a favorite Bible verse? Well, I have a favorite verse in the B.O.M. and this is it.” You can use this verse when talking about how the Mormons need to be perfect and keep the whole law. Point out how this verse says that God will make it possible for them to be perfect and ask why they can’t seem to follow this logic.

Anyway, back to the J.S.T of the Bible. You might be able to back order a copy of the 1993-1994 Church Almanac from the local Mormon bookstore. On page 339, under 1833, July 2, it says, “The prophet Joseph Smith finished the Translation of the Bible.” In the 2003 Almanac on page 536, under 1883, July 2, it says, “The prophet Joseph Smith finished the Translation of the New Testament.” I believe that whatever year we happen to be in, you could buy an updated Almanac and find the year 1883, look under July 2, and it will say this. If it only says he finished the New Testament, try and get the 93-94 edition that says he finished the whole Bible. The reason why is that in the J.S.T. of the Bible, it says on page 10: “COMPLETION” POSSIBLY NOT FINAL. Then, on page 11 it says Mormon authors Sperry and Van Wagoner have pointed out that the Psalms are evidence of the incompleteness of the translation.

On page 258 of the book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1989 version, he says and I quote, “My feelings at the present time are that, inasmuch as the Lord Almighty has preserved me until today, He will continue to preserve me, by the united faith and prayers of the saints, until I have fully accomplished my mission in this life.” It appears that Joseph Smith was wrong, and he did not fully accomplish his mission. Part of his mission given by God in D and C was to finish the J.S.T. and it said right in there he did not finish the work. Point out that either Joseph Smith was a false prophet or God is a liar/failure for not keeping Joseph Smith alive to finish his job given by God Himself.

In the J.S.T. of the Bible, the first 24 pages talk about all this plus lots of other fun stuff to point out. I suggest buying a copy to use with the Mormon. Point out that in the D and C and the Church Almanac, Joseph Smith was told by God to finish it; in the B.O.M. says that God will grant you the ability to finish what he told you to do. But in the J.S.T., it teaches that it is not finished. So what is the deal - is it, or is it not? Also, they sell the J.S.T. in the local Mormon bookstore and the Mormon will admit that parts of the J.S.T. are found in the footnotes of the B.O.M. and D and C. Plus, a good portion of the P of GR P is the same as the J.S.T., yet they don’t carry it, pass it out, or use it.

The Mormon will say that the Reorganized Latter Day Saints own the rights to the J.S.T. and therefore, it is not trustworthy. I point out that it is kind of funny how they don’t trust the Bible because the Church fell into total apostasy, yet the Lord tells Joseph Smith to fix the Bible and then the Lord allows it to be re-corrupted by falling to the Reorganized Church? That makes zero sense. Also, why does the local Mormon bookstore sell it if you don’t use it? Something you can point out to the Mormon is that they don’t use the J.S.T because they feel it has been corrupted by the RLDS, yet it can be found within the footnotes of their books. Please tell me who decides which verses were good to use and which verses were corrupted? Therefore, you cannot use the rest.

Most of the time, it will get the Mormon thinking without a response, but you also will get a stupid response here and there. There are 13 Articles of Faith, and number 8 says, “We believe the Bible to be the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God.” Personally, I like to use the J.S.T. on the Mormon. What I tend to do is prepare ahead verses I know I will use with the Mormon and check them in the J.S.T. If they are not found in the J.S.T. that means Joseph Smith did not mess with them. Then, I bring up a verse to the Mormon in the K.J.V. I remind him that if he uses the J.S.T. in his footnotes and God told Joseph Smith to finish the book and your church claims he did finish it, then, due to the fact that Joseph Smith did not change it, there is an implication that God was fine with the way it was. Therefore, we now can go on to what the verse means. For example, the Mormons believe in grace plus works. In Romans 3:28 it says, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” (K.J.V.) Now in Romans 3:28 of the J.S.T. it says, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law.”

Here is a mistake that no one caught, but can work to your benefit. I call it a mistake because the Mormon believes in grace plus works, but also down in verse 16 in the J.S.T it teaches grace plus works. The J.S.T. contradicts itself in this area, so point out how the Mormon Church teaches works, yet according to God, works is wrong. Another one would be in Isaiah where there are lots of verses that teach God knows of no other Gods besides Him. In the J.S.T., these verses were never messed with, so you can point out that they were never touched, therefore they must mean what they say.

The Mormon Church teaches what is called the pre-existence. They believe we were spirits born in heaven and then when we were born into earth here, we were born forgetting the pre-existence. It is more in-depth than this, but this is just a simple form of it. The thing I like to point out to the Mormon is in Job where God says to Job, “Where were you when I created the heavens and earth and did all that was done?” Tell the Mormon Titus and Hebrews point out that God cannot lie. If we were really with God before being sent to earth, why did God not just say to Job, “Don’t you remember when I did all this since you were with me?”

For God to say, “Where were you?” implies we were not there, otherwise God lied which it is impossible for Him to do. The Mormon will usually say that the Bible says, “I knew you before you were formed.” You can respond however you want, but I respond by saying that it is like a carpenter who puts plans on paper to build a house. He knows what the house looks like, even though plans are on paper and it is not built.

Another question I like to ask the Mormon is: “If the gospel means good news and you say you believe the good news, then what exactly is the good news of your belief?” They have always told me that it is the fact that the Mormon Church has “Living Prophets” and new “ongoing” revelations. It could change depending on the Mormon, but that is generally what I am told. I will then point out that if they have no hope of salvation and they have hundreds of laws to keep how is this good. To help you out with this logic, you can go to this website: (www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/followingthebrethren.htm. If an error occurs here, go to www.utlm.org. This is the Tanners web site. You should be able to find the Fourteen Fundamentals in following the Prophet. They were given at Brigham Young University and by the former Mormon Prophet/President Ezra Taft Benson. I don't think any Mormon would argue with you if you show them these. All 14 give scripture - both ours (“The Bible”) and theirs - to back these statements up.

I won’t list all 14, but I will list the ones I like the best and use most often with the list of questions I ask. These are directly quoted:

FIRST: The Prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

SECOND: The living Prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

THIRD: The living Prophet is more important to us than a dead Prophet.

FOURTH: The Prophet will never lead the Church astray.

SIXTH: The Prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the lord”, to give us scripture.

ELEVENTH: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the Prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

FOURTEENTH: The Prophet and the presidency--the living Prophet and the first presidency--follow them and be blessed--reject them and suffer.

You can use these anyway you want or how you feel the Lord is leading you. Here are some ways I use these sayings from the prophet. Remember, I pointed out how the Prophet Joseph Smith taught that the B.O.M. is the keystone to their religion in H.C. 4:46. In the book Teachings, on page 71 Joseph Smith said, “Take away the book of Mormon and the revelations and where is our religion.” Then, according to number 2, you could just throw away the B.O.M. and listen to the Prophet. Then if the Mormon says, “Well that is nonsense add number 3 and say Joseph Smith might have been a Prophet but he is now dead and the living Prophet supersedes the dead one. Then add number 4 to it also and say remember the Prophet will not lead the Church astray.

Now another one I like to ask Mormons and even people like the “Mormon answer man” is found in the J.S.T. on page 10 under the heading “Completion” possibly not final. It goes on to say “The angel who visited Joseph Smith on the night of September 21, 1823, quoted the Prophet Malachi as follows”

“For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly shall burn as stubble, for they that cometh shall burn them saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch...

Behold, I will reveal unto you the priesthood by the hand of Elijah the Prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord...

And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers; if it were not so the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming.”

It goes on to say “This differs at important points from the King James Version of Malachi, but the Inspired Version is identical with the King James Version.” The above verse is from chapter 4 in Malachi. Now some of the problems we have is this. In both versions it says “Thus saith the Lord” implying God said so, so did God forget what he said, otherwise the angel misquoted what the Lord spoke but then that also is problem. The next option is Joseph wrote it down wrong but then that would mean 2 things, 1. He was not a true Prophet of God and 2, he failed in his mission according to both D and C 1:14 and D and C 74 and according to former president Ezra Taft Benson who gave the 14 fundamentals of following the brethren. I have shown this to many Mormons as of yet nobody can seem to give me an answer, they all just say I don’t know what to tell you. The other thing about all this also is Joseph Smith did not included the book of Malachi in the J.S.T. which would imply to me, that nothing was wrong with that book, Therefore how could it be misquoted? I say nothing was wrong with it because the reason it was “Fixed” the bible that is, by Joseph Smith was God told him the Bible had errors in it (A of F number 8). And only this misquoted verse appears in the book so it really makes no sense?





Now lets look at a couple of the really stupid stories in the B.O.M. I would not say to a Mormon these stories are really stupid, I would say how could the B.O.M. be truly inspired with stories like these in it. I might only point out these stories as the Mormon is getting ready to leave, just say here is one last thing to think about when you read your B.O.M. and come across these stories.

This is one story I just recently came across as I read through the B.O.M. Read Alma chapter 55 and I will just point out a few things in this story. First in the Word of Wisdom found in D and C chapter 89 it teaches a Mormon is not allowed to drink alcohol. Now you might think this is not a major doctrine so why bother, here is why. I have pointed out to the Mormon Jesus drank wine and turned water to wine before, and they just responded that it was non-alcoholic wine, in other words just grape juice. So I would point out how Jesus was accused of being a drunkard and you cannot get drunk off of non-alcoholic wine.

Now here is where it relates to the story in Alma 55. In Hebrews 13:8 it says 8:Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. In Moroni 10:19 it also teaches that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. But in Alma 55 we find that they were drinking wine to the point they got drunk, And this wine came from the Mormon prophet Moroni. Why can he drink wine but nobody else, This just tells me (my) God is a changing God.

Now more on this story is this. The Lamanites and Nephites were fighting each other and so the Nephites did not want to shed blood so they sent a few of there people over to the Lamanites camp pretending to be Lamanites and brought there wine and got them all drunk and when everybody was good and drunk they took them with out force.

Now to go along with a God who never changes lets add this. Black people today at one time were considered cursed by God and could never hold the priesthood. But later there was a revelation given by God that stated the blacks could hold the priesthood. This revelation was given in Salt Lake City in 1978,now this poses a problem? The problem is the black people are still black, and this implies they still have the mark of the curse. Yet we read in 3 Nephi 2:15 (And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites). Why would God lift the cursed skin from these people back then but not today? Since 1978 till today is about 25 years. The Scriptures teach nothing is impossible for God, but appears it is, and as I pointed out the God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. That would appear to be false also. Now for another good story. Read Ether 2:16-25

This story really makes God look stupid. In short the brother of Jared was told by God himself to build a barge, and it was built so airtight that the brother of Jared went back to God and said we have no light in side to see by and no air to breath. So then God tells him to drill a hole in the top and the bottom of the barge, then to put plugs in the hole to keep water from coming in. And God even states if you pull a plug and water comes in put the plug back in and pull the other plug instead, this implies water will come in.

I talked to a Mormon about this story once and pointed out how, if water comes in then it will displace air, therefore you will have less air to breath and eventually you will keep filling up with water to the point where it will sink or you will drown. Plus all the things in the ship will get destroyed by water. I pointed out how if you pull what you think is the plug up top implying you are upright and you pull it and water comes in then it means one of two things, you are either under water and therefore you would sink or you were turned upside down. And if you keep getting thrown about to the point where you cannot tell which way is up then you can or will be seriously hurt.

The response I received from the Mormon is (Rick) you just don’t understand fully what you just read. I really believe this is a good story to show how the B.O.M. cannot be inspired by God it really makes him look stupid. Ok now lets move on to things found in the B.O.M.

We will look at a few things you can point out and say did this really happen or how can this book be truly inspired with things like this in it. Just in about half of the book of Mormon I put together a list of around 110 things either really stupid or that are Christian theology taken from the bible that Mormon's deny like the trinity, or saved by grace alone. I will not list everything so it would be best if you go through and read it and put together your own list. A lot of what is listed is only parts of a verse to say on space and time, please read for context before pointing this stuff out to the Mormon. Nothing is twisted or taken out of context, I just do not want to make an entire book here so it is easier to just list the part I want to focus on.

1 Nephi 1:2: The Jews use the language of the Egyptians.

1 Nephi 1:8: And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he THOUGHT HE SAW GOD sitting upon his throne.

How can you say I thought I saw god? You either did or did not.

1 Nephi 16:18: And it came to pass that as I Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine steel.

How can you break a bow made of fine steel? You could take cheap steel and beat it over a rock or on something very hard and try as you might you will have a really hard time trying to break it. Also if you have a bow you will do all you can not to use it in such a way as to possibly break it in such a careless manor.

Enos 20: They ate raw meat.

Every body knows Gold, Diamonds and Pearls are rare therefore most precious but have you ever heard of ZIFF as a precious metal.

Mosiah 11:8: Ziff (a precious thing) king Noah used. To this day it has never been heard of or found. It must be really precious and rare to still be undiscovered.

Alma 10:4-9: First the guy (Amulek) in this story says in verses 5:Never the less after all this I never have known much of the ways of the Lord, and his mysteries and marvelous power. I say I never had known much of these things; but behold; I mistake, for I have seen much of his mysteries and his marvelous power.

So which is it? Then it goes on to say that Amulek admits he openly rebelled against God and is living in rebellion to Him. Then God sends and Angel to him telling him I will use you this day to feed a Prophet of God. That would be like God speaking to Charles Mansion and saying I will use you this day to feed Billy Graham.

Now in Alma 10:17: This same Amulek who just admitted he was rebelling against God, so we know it is not an Angel in the form of a man or God himself in the form of a man goes on in verse 17 to say he (Amulek) perceived their thoughts. How can a mortal man know your thoughts or read your mind so to speak. Only God can do this. It is not stated that God gave him the power to do so. In case a Mormon says this is the reason it happened.

Alma 13:18: Claims Melchizedek had a Father, this denies the Bible.

Alma 19:29: Jesus is mentioned but the date is B.C. 90. The reason why this is mentioned is because Jesus took the queen by the hand and lifted her up. But there are many verses that talk about the “Coming” in the future time of Jesus. So is he coming or is he here already?

Alma 21:6: We do believe God will save ALL men. Well they believe wrong because we know not all men will be saved. The B.O.M. even teaches some will go to hell?

Alma 24:19: And thus we see that they buried their weapons of peace, or they buried the weapons of war, for peace. Which is it?