Well, I am so busy I do not know how often I will be able to post. So if I post only once a month or longer I at least want to leave some questions for LDS to think about.
Joseph Smith said, No man can see God and live, without the Priesthood, D and C 84 19-22.
So if that really is true, How could JOSEPH SMITH, Really see God the Father and Jesus Christ in the First Vision and still live, Since when JS claims he saw them he did not have the priesthood.
Joseph Smith Also said:
Joseph Smith declared that “the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, . . . and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than any other book” (History of the Church, 4:461).
If this is true, why was/is their over 4,000 changes to the BoM? So much for correct.
Add to that, the way JS translated the BoM by sticking his head in a hat and telling his buddy oliver the letter that came to light in the hat. if Joseph told Oliver the letter (A) and Oliver wrote down the letter (A) then the letter JS saw would disappear for Good. But if JS told Oliver the letter (A) and oliver wrote down the letter (B) the letter (A) would remain. So it should be impossible for their ever to have been one single mistake in the BoM.
Jesus said about the OT, you search the Scriptures for the testify of Me, we really do see Jesus through out the entire OT, Yet this is not the case with the BoM. We find some cases of out right plagiarism in the BoM.
So if we look at it like this, if something is word for word, like entire Chapters of the Book of Isiah from the Bible are found in the BoM then why do we need them in both books? so if we simply remove the teachings from the BoM seeing how we have them in the Bible then we really do not have much left in the BoM, and since we do not have much left in the BoM, how is it now going to get me closer to God? What is left in the BoM after you remove the teachings that are already found in the Bible that will teach me or get me closer to God?
We read in the Bible over 1,800 prophecies. so how many do we read of in the BoM? I will post more questions to think about as I get time. Rick b
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The Biblical Scripture is complete in explaining the Old and New Covenants and the idea that those in Christ are saved through his atoning and resurrection work unto the eventual culminated Kingdom.
No further Scriptural revelation is needed, but an objective understanding of the revelation is required. This would not need lead to 19th century 'restoration' movements.
Hi Rick,
I am happy to answer your questions. There is the slight possibility that my answers won't see the light of day. Oh well.
One mode of thought in the church believes that there are exceptions to the rule propounded in D&C 84:19-22. Basically, when Deity visits humanity, sometimes the Deity extends what is called "the glory of God" to the human. This allows the human to endure his presence, which isn't otherwise possible without the priesthood. There is some reason to argue that we may believe that the Holy Ghost and the Glory of God are synonymous, but I couldn't quickly find the verse that indicates this so I'll leave it as hearsay for now. There have also been arguments in the past that Joseph is a partial descendant of Aaron (I have no idea if it is true, although Joseph's parents clearly didn't think of themselves as Jewish). That would also sidestep some of the issues with the First Vision, but it does make Moses in Exodus harder to explain. I tend toward the glory/exception camp myself.
Therefore, Joseph Smith could really see the Father and the Son because of the extension of the Glory of God to him.
Regarding your second question, I've talked about Joseph's spelling issues before. As far as I know, spelling rules weren't standardized in Joseph's time and Joseph never received much of an education. Further, the manuscript was given to the printer without any punctuation whatsoever, so blame him for many of those later corrections (or rather blame his assistant who had to put the punctuation in). In any case, I don't think that Joseph Smith had the notion of "grammatically correct" in his head when he made that comment. He probably meant something more along the lines of ethical correctness or some such.
Next item, are you arguing that Christ is never mentioned in the Book of Mormon? That just isn't true. Arguably, the Book of Mormon more clearly and more explicitly testifies of Christ than the Old Testament. I do not understand what the point of this question is.
You will pleased to note that there is much debate over the inclusion in the Book of Mormon of several chapters of Isaiah. Nephi's purpose in including the quotes is obscure; mostly he seems to include them as a testimony of Christ. Perhaps he was afraid that the regular brass plates would fall into the wrong hands and he wished to include Isaiah's testimony of Christ and the restoration of the Jewish people. It is hard to say, of course.
That said, the Isaiah chapters make up a small portion of the Book of Mormon. Most of the Book of Mormon is original to itself. If you are interested, Alma 32 features an excellent discourse on faith, as does Ether 12. Alma 42 has a beautiful explanation of the LDS plan of salvation and the meaning of Christ's atonement. I also cannot recommend Alma 11-14 enough as a miniature theodicy. Finally, I always feel the Spirit strongly when I read of Christ's visit to the America's in 3rd Nephi 11-29 (which does feature some Bible overlap, but has some wonderful narrative and doctrine in its own right).
Regarding prophecies, there are several in the Book of Mormon. Is there a particular type you are looking for? There isn't much in the way of apocalyptic, as an example, but there is some. There are several prophecies from the Book of Mormon that have been fulfilled in our day and there are several that are fulfilled over the course of the book. Again, I don't see the point of your question.
Yuki, you have a lot to reply to, I will add more as I get time.
First you said I am happy to answer your questions. There is the slight possibility that my answers won't see the light of day. Oh well.
I,m not like You LDS, I am fair and I post even if I do not agree. I can show you many replies I dont agree with on my blog from LDS if you feel I am lying.
the only replys that never last are insults only, or honest answers filled with insults.
Yuki said One mode of thought in the church believes that there are exceptions to the rule propounded in D&C 84:19-22. Basically, when Deity visits humanity, sometimes the Deity extends what is called "the glory of God" to the human. This allows the human to endure his presence, which isn't otherwise possible without the priesthood.
First off, by saying one mode of thought, implys that other LDS do not agree, so if you guys cannot agree then how can I trust that your correct?
Then you cannot support that view from the Bible, God never says, I can allow you to see me if I extend my glory to you, as a matter of fact, if that were true, How come God did not due that with Moses?
God told moses you can ONLY SEE MY BACKSIDE lest you die, then even moses said he could not handle seeing Gods back side. That shows a problem when you and the Bible cannot agree.
No point talking about JS being Jewish. I will add more later. Rick b
Yuki said Regarding your second question, I've talked about Joseph's spelling issues before. As far as I know, spelling rules weren't standardized in Joseph's time and Joseph never received much of an education. Further, the manuscript was given to the printer without any punctuation whatsoever, so blame him for many of those later corrections (or rather blame his assistant who had to put the punctuation in). In any case, I don't think that Joseph Smith had the notion of "grammatically correct" in his head when he made that comment. He probably meant something more along the lines of ethical correctness or some such.
Here again you and many LDS cannot agree, if you guys cannot agree then who can I trust to lead me into truth?
I have heard many LDS say, Joseph Smith stuck his head in a hat with a seer stone, if the Letter (A) came up, he would tell his partner on the other side of the sheet the letter he saw, if his Partner wrote down the correct letter, it would then dissaper from the golden plates. But if he wrote it down incorrectly it would remain till they got it correct.
So if that is true, and many LDS teach and believe it to be so, then the bad spelling would be on the golden plates that way and fall on God. So your answer is Bogus. Rick b
Yuki, I said, Jesus said about the OT, you search the Scriptures for the testify of Me, we really do see Jesus through out the entire OT, Yet this is not the case with the BoM. We find some cases of out right plagiarism in the BoM.
To which you said Next item, are you arguing that Christ is never mentioned in the Book of Mormon? That just isn't true. Arguably, the Book of Mormon more clearly and more explicitly testifies of Christ than the Old Testament. I do not understand what the point of this question is.
I'm not saying the Name of Jesus is not in the BoM, I,m saying Jesus said of the Bible, which at the time Jesus said it, He was speaking of the OT. Any way, we see Jesus all through out the OT, In Types, Jesus is the Lamb of God. Before the passover, the Lamb was allowed to live with the humans, they inspected it for blemises, and they feed it and took care of it.
Jesus walked among Humans and was inspected by humans, they looked hard for flaws, then it was killed and the blood was put in the form of a cross upon the doors and the top, God sees the cross and the blood saves us, just as the blood of Jesus saves us.
when moses in the Book of numbers laid out the camps, they were laid out in such a way, that if you were in a plane, the camps would look like the form of a cross, God the father saw a cross when he look down upon the earth. We do not see this kind of detail in the BoM. that was my point. Rick b
Yuki said
Regarding prophecies, there are several in the Book of Mormon. Is there a particular type you are looking for? There isn't much in the way of apocalyptic, as an example, but there is some. There are several prophecies from the Book of Mormon that have been fulfilled in our day and there are several that are fulfilled over the course of the book. Again, I don't see the point of your question.
Please take your time, list every prophicey you can think of in the BoM and break them down, I have read evidence that rebukes every prophicy from the BoM, so I do not by them as being from God. Rick b
I just happened across an article that you might be interesting in posting a comment on:
Mormons & Founding Documents
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