LDS use I Cor. 15:29 to try to show that their concept of proxy baptism is Biblical. It says, "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?" Paul's main subject in I Cor. 15 was not baptism for the dead but "resurrection of the body." He was not giving a commandment to baptize by proxy in verse 29, but he was arguing for a belief in the resurrection of the body. History indicates that there were sects which practiced baptism for the dead. Paul may be referring to them when he said, "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead?"
Talmage said that we can become "vicarious saviors" of the dead (A. of F., p. 152). But, if that is true, Jesus Christ is not the only mediator between God and men as I Tim. 2:5 declares. Furthermore, Heb. 9:27 says, "It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." And, II Cor. 6:2 declares, "Behold now is the accepted time: Behold now is the day of salvation." The Bible nowhere teaches that mankind has another chance for salvation after death.
LDS use I Peter 3:19-20 to support their doctrine of salvation for the dead. It says Christ "preached unto the spirits in prison," but it does not say that He preached the gospel to them as LDS claim. Nor does the text say any spirits were saved as a result of that preaching or that anyone was baptized in their behalf. Such an interpretation ignores the context which indicates that Christ's preaching was a proclamation of judgment. Mormons also use I Peter 4:6 to teach salvation for the dead. It says, "For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead."
Then those who did have the law and rejected it, should not have proxy work done for them according to President Joseph Fielding Smith. He said, "The work for the dead is not intended for those who had every opportunity to receive it, who had it taught to them, and who then refused to receive it, or had not interest enough to attend to these ordinances when they were living (D. of S., Vol. II, p. 184).
If baptism is not needed by those without the law as the B. of M. says, and proxy temple work "is not intended for those who had every opportunity to receive" the LDS gospel but refused it as Joseph Fielding Smith said, then for whom are LDS doing proxy work? Mormon missionaries who "compass sea and land to make one proselyte" (Matt. 23:15) are also wasting their time if they go to people "without the law," since the B. of M. says those people are already "alive in Christ," (Moroni 8:22).
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luke16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.
Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Notice what is both said and not said.
What is said is, I cannot cross the gulf to you, and you cannot come over here. The Rich man wanted water, Water is a symbol in the Bible for life eternal, Jesus gives us water gushing up out of our bellies into eternal life, If we drink From His well we will never thirst again.
What is said also is, the Rich man saying, send people to my brothers so they will avoid coming here, Abraham says, they have the Word of God. If we cannot trust the Word were in trouble.
What is never said is, I will or someone will do a proxy baptism for you and then send spirits here to give you the gospel again and you will be free. Plus is Abraham could speak to him, why not just have him share the Gospel right then and their?
The last thing I want to point out is this, Not one place in the entire Bible to we read about the purpose or one of the purposes is for baptizing for the dead. Read the OT, It is clear what the purpose of the temple was. Rick b
3 comments:
The Bible nowhere teaches that mankind has another chance for salvation after death.
Thanks for the article and explanation, Rick.
Hebrews 9: 27 comes to mind which notes that persons die once and then comes judgment. Philip Edgcumbe Hughes explains that physical death is a judgment that sinful humanity had brought upon itself, but it is not the final judgment which is something distinct which follows death. Hughes (1990: 387).
HUGHES, P. (1990) A Commentary On The Epistle To The Hebrews, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
I have heard some explain this as a practice at the time to baptize the dead in hopes that they would be saved after. I personally saw this as a statement concerning the dead in spirit not in flesh. Unbelievers. But I don't know. I heard an LDS program once talking about a woman (who was retiring) whom had been proxy baptizing for the dead (she was dunked for them) She had been dunked close to 30,00 times. The Elder stated that he believed this woman had saved more people than even Christ Himself. WOW I thought to myself. She needs Christ more than ever after that comment. Standing before HIM with that on your mind gives me the chills.
-Dave
Hello Dave,
Thank you for your thoughts. Something else the LDS do not understand or think about is, what about all the dead people they do not have names for?
Take for example, if the BoM is true, then the millions that died in the hill Cumorah battle, we do not have those names, plus how long would it take to do baptism's for millions of people?
Doctrine and Covenants 42:18 says, "…he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."
In that vein, Joseph Fielding Smith taught, "Murderers Denied Vicarious Ordinances…we do not have the privilege of performing the ordinances for murderers who shed innocent blood, nor for those who take their own lives…If we find in our record one of this kind, we should pass him by and not attempt to do the work for him…" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:192)
Given these teachings from LDS scripture and a latter-day prophet, what is the hopeful outcome for Latter-day Saints performing vicarious temple ordinances on behalf of people such as Adolf Hitler and Reinhard Heydrich (as mentioned in the Salt Lake Tribune 10/9/99)?
What about the Millions who were burned in the ovens by Hitler? We do not have an entire list of all the names.
according to what they teach, there is no hope for the person who commits murder (according to mormon doctrine, doctrines of salvation, miracle of forgiveness and teachings of the prophet). Yet I wonder--have the mormons ever given any thought to what happened to J Smith? in D and C 135:4 he says his conscience is void of offence towards God and all men, and he says "I shall die innocent." yet in history of the church 7:102-103 it says J Smith killed 2 people. please explain how He can be forgiven if their is no forgiveness for the murder?
So if LDS cannot do baptism for the murder, and the LDS teach no death bed repentance, then how can they do baptism for them. It would stand to reason if your not able to repent on your death bed, then how can you be baptized after your dead and be forgiven then still end up in the same place as if you were able to repent on your death bed? Seems like it contradicts it's self.
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