Joseph Smith's Bible (part 1)

My next Topic will be about the (Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible) JST. I will lay out what I see are problems with this book and the Church both using it and not using it.

First off, lets start with JS and HIS Bible. If you read the Articles of Faith (A of F) number 8, it says,

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

First problem is, The LDS do not fully trust the Bible as being both accurate or the Word of God. Now we read in the Doctrine and Covenants (D and C) Chapter 71 in the heading above that chapter.

SECTION 71
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Sidney Rigdon, at Hiram, Ohio, December 1, 1831. HC 1: 238–239. The Prophet had continued to translate the Bible with Sidney Rigdon as his scribe until this revelation was received, at which time it was temporarily laid aside so as to enable them to fulfill the instruction given herein. The brethren were to go forth to preach in order to allay the unfriendly feelings that had developed against the Church as a result of the publication of some newspaper articles by Ezra Booth, who had apostatized.

Then we read in D and C chapter 73

Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Sidney Rigdon, at Hiram, Ohio, January 10, 1832. HC 1: 241–242. Since the early part of the preceding December, the Prophet and Sidney had been engaged in preaching, and by this means much was accomplished in diminishing the unfavorable feelings that had arisen against the Church (see heading to Section 71).
1–2, Elders are to continue to preach; 3–6, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon are to continue to translate the Bible until it is finished.

1 For verily, thus saith the Lord, it is expedient in me that they should continue preaching the gospel, and in exhortation to the churches in the regions round about, until conference;

2 And then, behold, it shall be made known unto them, by the voice of the conference, their several missions.

3 Now, verily I say unto you my servants, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, saith the Lord, it is expedient to translate again;

4 And, inasmuch as it is practicable, to preach in the regions round about until conference; and after that it is expedient to continue the work of translation until it be finished.

5 And let this be a pattern unto the elders until further knowledge, even as it is written.

6 Now I give no more unto you at this time. Gird up your loins and be sober. Even so. Amen.

Please remember, both while reading what I write now and when and if you ever talk to the LDS about this, the Heading above the Chapter 73 says, They were to finish the translation. This is very important for the reason of, many LDS have told me and do teach, that JS never finished the Translation. You can go to the LDS fair boards and either talk about the JST and you will have LDS tell you JS never finished or you can look up under my user name (rick b)fairlds and read all of my talks as they arcive everything. The link provide will take you to all of my posts, you can read over the pages and look up the talks on the JST and after you click on them you can read what everyone else said. I talked with LDS on the FairLDS board who told me JS never finished his work of translation.

This is a very serious problem, which I will cover. Lets look at D and C 76:15

15 For while we were doing the work of atranslation, which the Lord had appointed unto us

And D and C 93:53

53 And, verily I say unto you, that it is my will that you should hasten to translate my scriptures, and to obtain a knowledge of history, and of countries, and of kingdoms, of laws of God and man, and all this for the salvation of Zion. Amen.

Now if you see TV, or book or web ad's for the LDS offering a BoM or even a Bible, they NEVER offer you a JST of the Bible. And when you speak with them and they quote from the Bible, you will notice they almost never quote from the JST of the Bible. I would really have to Ask and I guess I am going to ask, If JS really is a prophet of God, The lds is the True Church and God really did tell JS to translate the Bible, Why do the LDS not use it or pass it out?

I will give what I believe are some reasons why. First, JS is nothing more than a false prophet who came as a wolf in sheep's clothing. But the LDS don't believe this, so hear are some reasons I have heard given by them over the years. When JS was killed in the jail, Brigham Young took over as the next president of the LDS church. Depending on who you talk to or believe for that matter, there was a split in the Church, we had the LDS who followed BY, and the RLDS who followed Joseph Smith's son.

The rlds at the time believed Joseph Smiths son was ment to be the next President of the LDS Church, not BY. Joseph's Wife, Lucy, followed her son. She owned the copy of the JST of the Bible. BY wanted it, but lucy would not give it up. So finally BY dismissed it as flawed. Now the LDS claim the RLDS own the rights to the book.

I have to ask these questions, If the LDS really believe the Church fell into a total aposaty, and the Bible is not accurate, and God clearly told JS to translate the Bible again, As was clearly laid out, why would God allow one group to own the copy rights on His word and theirfore the Church that WAS supposed to have it and use it, see it basicly fall into a some what corrputed state again?

I happen to own a copy of the JST of the Bible, and when you read in the preface of the JST of the Bible, it states, ( "Completion" Possibly not final).





More to come in part two, Rick b

3 Heavens (Part 2)

My topic on part two to the 3 heavens issue will focus on what the Bible says and does not say.

Look over part 1 and see who gets let into the First heaven.

People who will attain the telestial kingdom in the afterlife include those "who received not the gospel of Christ, nor the testimony of Jesus" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:82) as well as "liars, and sorcerors, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie"

Notice, According to the Bible, these people will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God or Heaven.

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Even the BoM never mentions these 3 different heavens or who will enter them.
Sadly the LDS build an entire doctrine around a verse or two from the BIble yet simply cannot support the view they believe from the Bible.

Do a word search on HEAVEN or HEAVEN(S) Not once in the Bible or BoM will you find a break down of these three heavens and who will go to each one. The LDS use the verses in the BIble, I Cor. 15:39-41 and teach the three degrees of glory or three heavens. But these verses do not give a definition of who goes where, only talks about three heavens. And the LDS take them out of context to build there doctrine.

1Cr 15:39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.

1Cr 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.

1Cr 15:41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.

However, the context in I Cor. 15:35-54 is not about heavens, but about the difference between our earthly mortal body and our new immortal body given us at the resurrection. Celestial and terrestrial bodies are mentioned in v. 40, but any dictionary will show that celestial means "heavenly" and terrestrial means "earthly."

Dictionary.com Defines Celestial as

ce·les·tial (s-lschl) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "celestial" [P]
adj.

1. Of or relating to the sky or the heavens: Planets are celestial bodies.
2. Of or relating to heaven; divine: celestial beings.
3. Supremely good; sublime: celestial happiness.
4. Celestial Of or relating to the Chinese people or to the former Chinese Empire.

And Terrestrial as

ter·res·tri·al (t-rstr-l) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "Terrestrial" [P]
adj.

1. Of or relating to the earth or its inhabitants.
2. Having a worldly, mundane character or quality.
3. Of, relating to, or composed of land.
4. Biology. Living or growing on land; not aquatic: a terrestrial plant or animal.

The word "telestial" is not found in I Cor. 15 because it was concived in the mind of Joseph Smith and can only be found in Mormon teachings. The glory of the sun, moon, and stars in v. 41 is used by LDS to support their beliefe of three heavens, but the context refers to "bodies," not heavens.

Lets make things even more confusing by adding what Bruce M taught.

Apostle Bruce McConkie says, "Even those in the Celestial Kingdom, however, who do not go on to exaltation, will have immortality only and not eternal life... Salvation in its true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the Celestial Kingdom.... This full salvation is obtained in and through the continuation of the family unit in eternity and those who obtain it are gods" (M.D., p. 670). Latter-day apostles, prophets and scripture certainly have not helped the LDS to clarify their doctrines! The B. of M., which is the "Fulness of the gospel" (D. & C. 20:9), does not even mention the three degrees of glory, heavens or kingdoms!

And Bruce's view does not line up and cannot be supported by the Bible.
We also read, LDS believe all will have immortality or resurrection, but only LDS can have eternal life and enter the Celestial Kingdom (G.T.A., p. 166). The very best Mormons will gain "eternal lives" or inherit the highest possible position in that celestial kingdom.

LDS believe that there are three degrees or levels within the Celestial Kingdom. While LDS "baptism is the gate to the Celestial Kingdom, Celestial Marriage is the gate to an exaltation in the highest heaven within the Celestial World" (M.D. p. 118).

Let me end with some things the BoM or the Bible does not teach, but LDS Teach or believe we must do to enter the Higest heaven. This shows how hard it will be to be saved.

According to mormonism the Temple is of the utmost importance, But they seem to forget to tell you what you must do to be able to enter.

Prophet Spencer Kimball Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. he gives a list of 6 things called (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). it says When you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,

1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.

In Gospel Principles pg 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. we are not repentant if we don't sustain the authorities of the church and don't love the lord and our fellow man.

Add to that also pg 241 Eternal marriage is ESSENTIAL FOR EXALTATION. Our exaltation depends on marriage. then over on pg 242 it says "and in order to obtain the highest, a man MUST ENTER INTO THIS ORDER OF THE PRIESTHOOD [MEANING THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT OF MARRIAGE];" "and if he does not, he cannot obtain it" (D and C 131:1-3) Rick B

3 Heavens. (Part 1)

In part one here, I am simply laying out what the 3 different heavens are according to LDS beliefes. I will go into detail in part two as to why I believe these are in error and a false Doctrine.


Telestial Kingdom
The telestial kingdom is the lowest of the three degrees of glory, in which the highest or celestial kingdom is compared to the sun, the middle or terrestrial kingdom is compared to the moon, and the lowest or telestial kingdom is compared to the stars. According to the Church's interpretation, the Bible also indicates that these three kingdoms are connected with the resurrection of the dead (1 Corinthians 15:40-42). Also, "in addition to the degrees of glory, there is a place of no glory, called perdition (or "outer darkness"), reserved for those who commit the unpardonable sin." (Bible Dictionary: Degrees of Glory)

People who will attain the telestial kingdom in the afterlife include those "who received not the gospel of Christ, nor the testimony of Jesus" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:82) as well as "liars, and sorcerors, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:103). These people, who will rise in the second resurrection, must first suffer for their sins in the Spirit Prison (similar to the Catholic concept of Purgatory - see Common Latter-day Saint perceptions) until the Last Judgement, at which time they will be assigned to the telestial kingdom, for they are identified as "heirs of salvation" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:88). However, the telestial kingdom is not unpleasant: "the glory of the telestial...surpasses all understanding" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:89).


Terrestrial Kingdom
The Terrestrial Kingdom is the middle of three "degrees of glory," in which the highest or Celestial Kingdom is compared to the sun, the middle or Terrestrial Kingdom is compared to the moon,[1] and the lowest or Telestial Kingdom is compared to the stars. The terminology is also used in 1 Corinthians 15:40. Also, "in addition to the degrees of glory, there is a place of no glory, called perdition, reserved for those who commit the unpardonable sin." (Bible Dictionary: Degrees of Glory)

Persons who will attain the Terrestrial Kingdom in the afterlife, according to the Church's teachings, include those who lived respectably but "were blinded by the craftiness of men" and "were not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" while on Earth or those who would did not do enough to search out the truth before their death but who have accepted it in the post-mortal realm (this latter doctrine being emphatically rejected by virtually all other Christian polities).

In the Terrestrial Kingdom, God the Father does not come, but Jesus Christ visits, and the Holy Ghost dwells with the inhabitants.


Celestial Kingdom
In Mormonism, the Celestial Kingdom is the highest of what are believed to be three heavens or heavenly kingdoms, or degrees of glory. It is thought to be the "third heaven" referred to in 2 Corinthians 12:2 of the Bible, and it is also thought to correspond to the "celestial bodies" mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:40 (King James Version). The Latin word celestial means "heavenly".

According to this doctrine, only those who attain the Celestial Kingdom will be united with their families in the eternities. It will be the residence of those who have been righteous, accepted the Gospel (Mormonism) and its ordinances and covenants, and lived their lives in harmony with their covenants or received the ordinances and covenants with all their hearts in the spirit world.

“They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given--That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.” (Doctrine and Covenants, 76:51-53)

Children who die before the age of eight all qualify for the Celestial Kingdom in the afterlife, as well as those who did not have the chance to receive the gospel in this life, but do in the post-mortal spirit world (see Baptism for the dead). Persons who reach maturity and receive full gospel teachings in this life will only be judged by God to be worthy of the Celestial Kingdom if they have received all required ordinances (baptism, endowment, and sealing if they are married), repented of their sins, and endured to the end through retaining their conversion. Some rebellious children of righteous parents may, like Alma the Younger in the Book of Mormon, receive a spiritual awakening in this life or in the spirit world whereby they finally understand and embrace the teachings of their parents and the atonement of Jesus Christ. (Alma 36:5-24)

The Celestial Kingdom is the residence of God the Father and Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost dwells there. Those who are worthy to dwell in the Celestial Kingdom will be exalted, and become God-like.

Smith taught that the Earth will receive a celestial glory. Because of this, many Mormons believe that the Earth will be the Celestial Kingdom, or a Celestial World within the Celestial Kingdom, for Humans who lived on the Earth and qualified for Celestial glory.

Original Sin

My next Topic will be on the issue of Original Sin.

The LDS deny this and call it a Theory. I will point out some of the sources they use to teach this and I will show from the Bible why I believe they are wrong, plus I will add my own thoughts on this subject.

First the LDS quote from the Articles of faith They quote Number 2 which says,

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

The first Question I would ask is this, If A of F 2 states Men will be punished for their own sins, and we are not sinners because of Adam, then where does or did our sinful nature come from?

I read in the BoM in Ether 3:2

O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods. Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires.

Seems to me, the BoM implys the fact we have a fallen nature by way of Adam.

Then they use Moses 6:53-55

53 And our father Adam spake unto the Lord, and said: Why is it that men must repent and be baptized in water? And the Lord said unto Adam: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden.

54 Hence came the saying abroad among the people, that the Son of God hath atoned for original guilt, wherein the sins of the parents cannot be answered upon the heads of the children, for they are whole from the foundation of the world.

55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.

Now we read in verse 55 that Sin Conceiveth in the hearts of the Kids. How is it if they are not stained by the fall of Adam that sin can just simply be there. Again where does this sinful nature come from if not from the fall of Adam?


We read in Moroni 8:8

8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

Just a side note here, the way Moroni 8:8 starts sounds a lot like these verses here,

Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luk 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Many people claim the BoM was simply copied in many spots word for word from the Bible. Do what ever you want with this info.

I want to know focus on this here,

wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

1. If the curse is removed from kids, then Yet again, how do they have sin in them when they grow up past the age of 8 years old

2. If the law of Circumcision is/has been done away with, Why is it mentioned through out the entire old testment as a law and Moses was almost killed for not doing it, His wife had to come to his rescue?


Now lets look at some verses from the Bible that teach we are all sinful.

Romans 5:8-14 says

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Death in Adam, Life in Christ
(Gen. 3:1-19)

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

We also read in

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

You can also read much in the Old Testement About the Priests Laying Hands upon animles to tranfer our sins to them, then they are put to death and not us. Read Hebrews chapters 9 and 10. Rick B

The Fall of Adam.

In the LDS faith, they believe the Fall of Adam was a good thing that was meant to happen. They deny the idea of Original Sin. While in the Biblical view of Christianity these go hand in hand, they are two separate events in the LDS belief. I will do a separate topic at a different time on the issue of Original Sin.

The way I will approach this will be like this. I will give a verse or two from the Bible, show how it differs from mormonism and go through it a few verses at a time.

Lets start with,

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Notice in verse 28, God tells them to be fruitful and multiply. In other words he is saying, go have Children. This was before the fall that God told them this. But the LDS teach that Adam and Eve were not able to have Children until after the Fall occurred. Here is a list of sources so you can look it up for your self.

Doct of Salvation vol 1 pg 115. Gospel Principles pg's 32-34(1997 edition)
True to the Faith pg 56-57 (2004) Mormon Doctrine pg 268.

The Bible again teaches

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The Bible clearly teaches, there is ONE TREE Adam and Eve are not allowed to eat from. Yet here is what the LDS teach. In the Joseph Smith "Translation" of the Bible, we read in Genesis chapter 2 verses 20-21

20:But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, 21: Nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but remember that I forbid it.

Then we read exactly word for word in the Pearl of great price, MOSES 3:17

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Now here is more from the Bible.

Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I [was] naked; and I hid myself.

Gen 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou [wast] naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest [to be] with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What [is] this [that] thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;

Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Now the reason I posted these last two sections of Scripture from both chapter 2 and 3, is because the Bible is very clear, God did not want Adam and Eve eating from the tree. Yet the LDS teach it was really part of Gods plan, they were supposed to partake of the tree and as a result Good things will come from it.

Let me lay out these so called benefits of the fall from the LDS point of view.

Adam and Eve could not have Children, as I addressed above. Then as 2Nephi 6-8 states below, If it were not for the fall We could not have a Resurrection, or Atonement.

6 For as death hath passed upon all men, to fulfill the merciful plan of the great Creator, there must needs be a power of resurrection, and the resurrection must needs come unto man by reason of the fall; and the fall came by reason of transgression; and because man became fallen they were cut off from the presence of the Lord.

7 Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement—save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more.

8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.

We read in the P of GP, Book of Moses chapter 5:10-11 Adam and Eve could not have Seed or have Joy if it were not for the Fall.

10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

We read in Gospel Principles pg 33 that another blessing of the fall is, We are blessed with physical bodies, the right to choose between good and evil, and the opportunity to gain eternal life.

We read in 2 Nephi 2:22-25

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men care, that they might have joy.

I want to point out some things for the LDS readers to think about. Why would God tell Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, (Have kids) But in reality they could not, until they ate from the tree that God told them not to? This seems to be a bit deceitful to me, and this would make God out to be a liar. How could God honestly tell them to do something, when he knew they could not?

Another thing would be, Why would God tell them not to eat of the tree, But in reality he planned all along that they should and would in order to be set free as it were? Why would God not simply be honest from the start and tell them, You must eat of this tree and here is why. Again this makes God a liar and this shows God using deceitful means to fulfill His plans and purposes. This is not the God I serve, He does not need to use lies and deception.

I challenge anyone to show me chapter and verse where God lied or uses lies. The bible tells me it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie, Hebrews 6:18 then in Titus 1:2 it says God cannot lie, The BoM also teaches God cannot lie, Read Enos 6, Ether 3:12, D and C 62:6.

Then we are taught in LDS teachings, After the fall we have Joy, and it was Gods plan for us to fall. But we read in Genesis 3:10-21, Adam was afraid, Adam blames Eve for something, He is no longer man enough to take responceabilty for his Actions. We read the Serpent is cursed, there is enmity put between the women and her seed. the Lord greatly multiplies sorrow, and gives pain in child birth. The ground is cursed and we have thorns and thistles, and lastly animals had to be put to death to make skins to cover Adam and Eve.

Of all the things I listed from Genesis 3:10-21 Please Explain to me how any of that brings Joy? We then read in 2 Nephi 6 they were cut off from the presence of the Lord. how is this joyful or good? We also read in Moses 5:11 and Gospel Principles pg 33 that they would not have been able to choose good or evil if it were not for the fall. It is really sad that I need to point this out, but the idea of being able to choose Evil is really not a good thing. People always seem to choose Evil over Good. We read in Jeremiah 17:9

The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? And in Romans 3:10-11 10: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

There was a LDS member who posted on my blog under a different topic, About the verses in Jeremiah, and Romans. She tried telling me that these verse did not apply to the entire human race, Only a select few people. So in case any LDS members who believe the fall was a good thing and we really are not all Evil, let me give you and answer for that now and it comes from the BoM if you cannot believe your scripture what can you believe?

Ether 3:2
2 O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods. Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires.

Mosiah 3:19
19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

I want to end with these thoughts here, As a result of the fall of Adam, The whole entire world was destoryed in a flood, The estiment was around 6 BILLION people died. Yep looks like Joy to me. People to this day Lie, Cheat, steal, Kill, Sexual preditors prey on little Children, Many people and even religions Harm Children and supprese women. The Bible speaks of false Prophets and Teachers. I just honestly do not see how all the evil in the world today and down through the years can make up for any Joy that the fall supposdly brought. Rick b