Andrew Price

I am posting this Article on a man named Andrew price. I honestly dont know much about him, What little I do know is this, He harrases Mormons, wont listen to reason and Mormons in general really do not like him or how he acts. The reason I am posting this is because, Mormons really dont like to be treated like this, they dont like people like andrew. Sadly though Mormons sometimes do to us non-LDS as this guy does to LDS. My example is (BILLS) The LDS who left two comments under my Topic of two questions. His replys are posted below the article on Andrew, I will add a little more, and you can see both sides and decide for yourself.

Mormons ask court to silence preacher who believes their church is a cult
The Telegraph/November 25, 2004
By David Millward

An evangelical Christian accused of harassing the Mormon church spent nearly three hours knocking on an elder's door, the High Court was told yesterday.

Andrew Price, a preacher with the Church of England (Continuing) visited Elder Dustin Shaver at his home in Walthamstow, north London in September as part of his campaign against the Mormons.

Elder Shaver was not the only reluctant recipient of Mr Price's evangelising, Fenner Moeran, the Mormons' counsel, told Mr Justice Beatson.

On one night in August Mr Price bombarded Mormons - members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - with phone calls. He made 90 in less than four hours.

Mr Price also sent more than 80 evangelical texts from his mobile phone to a handset belonging to Elder Daniel Pitt over a period of two months.

The court was shown several videos of Mr Price in action. In one he was preaching in stentorian tones from behind metal railings at one of the Mormon church's London chapels.

In a second he was "evangelising" outside a metal gate to a garage at the Mormons' chapel in Hyde Park and in the third, he was at the door of the Mormons' offices in South Kensington.

The court heard how on Oct 28 Mr Price pursued three Mormons from their London headquarters in Exhibition Road, South Kensington to the Tube station.

He followed them on the Circle Line and Victoria Line until they finished their journey at Black horse Road in north London.

Throughout the journey Mr Price was trying to show them the error of their ways.

"I was addressing them and they were listening" he said. "In one sense I was preaching in so far as one Christian was speaking to them about the gospel."

The Mormon church has argued that Mr Price has taken evangelising too far and has asked the High Court to grant it an injunction to prevent him from continuing his protests outside its properties. It wants him kept at least 30 yards from any of its churches throughout the country. It also wants him banned from making calls to Mormons' mobile phones unless invited to do so.

But giving evidence yesterday Mr Price, 44, of Chiswick, west London said he believed it was his duty to inform people of what the religion stood for.

"I would describe Mormonism in its presentation as being like the Venus fly trap.

"There is something attractive which lures an insect into the body of the plant. Then it closes and the plant is happy because it has its prey."

Mr Price, who admitted he often spent six days a week preaching outside Mormon churches, denied he had shouted or screamed at worshippers.

"I have some experience of the effect talking and preaching has on the human voice," he said.

"It is simply not possible for a person to be shouting, screaming and ranting for a long period of time. The voice would go."

Admitting that his voice was stronger than most, Mr Price insisted that he was not addressing those inside the Mormon buildings but passers-by and visitors.

"It was my intention to bring to the public attention the nature of this body. It is a cult."

Cross-examined by Mr Moeran, he admitted that he spent considerable amounts of time preaching his message.

"I could be outside their buildings for eight hours a day, maybe longer," said Mr Price who describes himself as Britain's leading critic of the Mormon church.

Challenged why he had persisted in trying to contact Mormon missionaries, despite their pleas to be left alone, Mr Price said many had been brainwashed.

Asked whether he would abide by the terms of an injunction, Mr Price said: "My wife and I will have to make a lot of decisions.

"As far as I am concerned the Mormon people need help."

The hearing continues.

This is Bills first reply to my Question.

Bills said...

Rick


The real reason that faithful Latter-day Saints cannot accept Evangelical-Protestant beliefs is simple, because your god is a LOSER.

I know this statement sounds UN-loving and a bit harsh at first, but it's the honest TRUTH.

Clearly, your own interpretive theology makes void the Atonement of Christ and the Doctrine of Repentance. Sadly, according to your own religious philosophy, not everyone is going to be "SAVED." So, for you, your only choice is choose between heaven or hell and either choice you make is made from fear and ignorance.

Ultimately this means that your incomprehensible LOSER god is not just a LOSER, but also a SADIST.

So, in the providence and wisdom of Almighty God, do honestly believe that Jesus Christ is a dismal failure and too weak to
"Save" the entire human family?

Obviously, faithful Latter-day Saints do not share your same defective view of deity. I think it's truly a shame that you don't have a better description of your
loving Creator and the marvelous Plan Of Salvation.

As for the Latter-day Saints, our loving God came to seek and save that which is LOST. For us this happens to include EVERYONE within the entire human family. This is the reason we build Temples to the Most High God and send our loving
missionaries into all the world. One-by-one, people are coming to a knowledge of the restored TRUTH.
The Lord gladly accepts all those who truly REPENT -- Dead or alive. Eventually, all the children of God will be "SAVED/Restored" -- Praise be to God!

Consider the following words that were delivered by our Lord and Savior:

"What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance." Luke 15:4-7.

So let the true laborers in Thy Harvest; go forth, O God, even the Messengers of Thy Kingdom; and let Truth and Judgment go before Them unto Victory. so let Thy Kingdom come: and let Thy Will be done; even here upon Earth, as it is in Heaven: Amen.

Wishing you peace and much understanding,

Bills

PS -- Like Joseph Smith, Sir Isaac Newton also rejected the Trinity. Notice that the word Trinity is absent from every book of ancient scripture. Joseph Smith stated that the Trinity doctrine was an "ABOMINATION" and Newton declared it was a "FRAUD." Great minds think alike, don't they?

Bills Second reply to me was:

Bills
said...

Hey Rick B. it's Bills, my name is Bills -- Thank you!

Your whole purpose in evangelizing faithful Latter-day Saints is to SAVE them from burning in hell for all eternity -- Right?

So, anyone who is not "Saved" by your own interpretive theology will end-up in hell for the rest of eternity -- Right?

And, should I end-up in hell for the rest of eternity, this means that your defective idiot god is LOSER -- Right?

Well, somehow you just LOST me!

Nevertheless, I will never accept your idiot LOSER god philosophy or "ABOMINATION" theology.

The loving God that I worship knows how to "SAVE" the entire human family and not just a select few. Besides, only LOSERS are stupid enough to believe in some idiot god who's a LOSER.

So let the true laborers in Thy Harvest; go forth, O God, even the Messengers of Thy Kingdom; and let Truth and Judgment go before Them unto Victory. so let Thy Kingdom come: and let Thy Will be done; even here upon Earth, as it is in Heaven: Amen.


H A L L E L U J A H


Wishing you peace and much understanding,


Bills

PS -- Here's a list of Protestant-Evangelical teachings that are clearly absent from every book of ancient scripture. This should give you a few ideas to work on.

Trinity doctrine; Rapture theory; Alter calls; Sinners prayer; Death bed repentance; Salvation by faith alone theory; defective LOSER god philosophy; Biblical Inerrancy; Sola Scriptura; Creation Ex Nihilo.

The reason I am posting this is simple, I see (Bills) doing the same thing to non-mormons, as Andrew does to mormons. For all who disagree, please go and read my replys to him under the (2 questions) Topic. He came on trash talking, I asked him to at least reply to my questions before going off topic, and also to provide scripture to support his views, He did neither, yet replyed a second time, again talking trash. Then as I stated in my reply, I asked for Mormons to provide Ideas for topics, He sugested the Trinity, Yet I did an indepth article on the trinity, This tells me he never even looked over a single thing I wrote, he just came spouting off trash.

I have been on the FairLDS board and reachout trust board, One a mormon board one a non mormon board, both sides have rules for you to abide by and they do enforce them, Why should I be any different. Rick b

FOURTEEN FUNDAMENTALS IN FOLLOWING THE PROPHET

I am only posting these and adding one little thought at the very bottom, otherwise everything here is what Ezra Taft Benson said. And he supports all of this from both the 4 standerd works and LDS prophets and teachings of LDS in general. The reason I am posting all of this is, Because I will be quoting from these in my posts to come, I want people to be fully aware of these sayings and the scriptures that Ezra uses to support His teachings. Rick b



FOURTEEN FUNDAMENTALS IN FOLLOWING THE PROPHET
BY
ELDER Ezra Taft Benson
February 26, 1980

My beloved brothers and sisters, I am honored to be in your presence today. You students are a part of a choice young generation--a generation which might well witness the return of our Lord. Not only is the Church growing in numbers today, it is growing in faithfulness and, even more important, our young generation, as a group, is even more faithful than the older generation. God has reserved you for the eleventh hour--the great and dreadful day of the Lord. It will be your responsibility not only to help bear off the kingdom of God triumphantly but to save your own soul and strive to save those of your family and to honor the principles of our inspired constitution.

To help you pass the crucial tests which lie ahead I am going to give you today several facets of a grand key which, if you will honor them, will crown you with God's glory and bring you out victorious in spite of Satan's fury. Soon we will be honoring our prophet on his eighty-fifth birthday. As a Church we sing the song, "We Thank Thee, O God, For a Prophet." Here then is the grand key: follow the prophet. And here now are fourteen fundamentals in following the prophet, the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

In section 132, verse 7, of the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord speaks of the Prophet--the President--and says: "There is never but one on the earth at a time on whom his power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred." Then in section 21, verses 4-6, the Lord states:

Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;

For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.

For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

Did you hear what the Lord said about the words of the prophet? We are to "give heed unto all his words"--as if from the Lord's "own mouth."

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

President Wilford Woodruff tells of an interesting incident that occurred in the days of the Prophet Joseph Smith:

I will refer to a certain meeting I attended in the town of Kirtland in my early days. At that meeting some remarks were made that have been made here today, with regard to the living oracles and with regard to the written word of God. The same principle was presented, although not as extensively as it has been here, when a leading man in the Church got up and talked upon the subject, and said: "You have got the word of God before you here in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants; you have the written word of God, and you who give revelations should give revelations according to those books, as what is written in those books is the word of God. We should confine ourselves to them."

When he concluded, Brother Joseph turned to Brother Brigham Young and said, "Brother Brigham, I want you to take the stand and tell us your views with regard to the living oracles and the written word of God." Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said: "There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day. And now," said he, "when compared with the living oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books." That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: "Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth." [in Conference Report, October 1897, pp. 18-19)

Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

The living prophet has the power of TNT. By that I mean "Todays News Today." God's revelations to Adam did not instruct Noah how to build the ark. Noah needed his own revelation. Therefore, the most important prophet, so far as you and I are concerned, is the one living in our day and age to whom the Lord is currently revealing His will for us. Therefore, the most important reading we can do is any of the words of the prophet contained each week in the Church Section of the Deseret News, and any words of the prophet contained each month in our Church magazines. Our marching orders for each six months are found in the general conference addresses, which are printed in the Ensign magazine.

I am so grateful that the current conference report is studied as part of one of your religion classes--the course entitied "Teachings of the Living Prophets," number 333. May I commend that class to you, and suggest that you get a copy of the class manual at your bookstore, whether you're able to take the class or not. The manual is entitled "Living Prophets for a Living Church."

Beware of those who would pit the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence.

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "I say to Israel, The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God." (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, selected by G. Homer Durham [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1946], pp. 212-213.)

President Marion G. Romney tells of this incident, which happened to him:

I remember years ago when I was a Bishop I had President [Heber J.] Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home....Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: "My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it." Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, "But you don't need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray." [In Conference Report, October 1), p. 78]

Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

Sometimes there are those who feel their earthly knowledge on a certain subject is superior to the heavenly knowledge which God gives to His prophet on the same subject. They feel the prophet must have the same earthly credentials or training which they have had before they will accept anything the prophet has to say that might contradict their earthly schooling. How much earthly schooling did Joseph Smith have? Yet he gave revelations on all kinds of subjects. We haven't yet had a prophet who earned a doctorate in any subject, but as someone said, "A prophet may not have his Ph.D. but he certainly has his LDS." We encourage earthly knowledge in many areas, but remember, if there is ever a conflict between earthly knowledge and the words of the prophet, you stand with the prophet, and you'll be blessed and time will vindicate you.

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture.

Sometimes there are those who haggle over words. They might say the prophet gave us counsel, but that we are not obligated to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the Lord says of the Prophet Joseph, "Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you" (D&C 21:4).

And speaking of taking counsel from the prophet, in D&C 108:1, the Lord states: "Verily thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Lyman: Your sins are forgiven you, because you have obeyed my voice in coming up hither this morning to receive counsel of him whom I have appointed".

Said Brigham Young, "I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture" (Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints' Book Depot], 13:95).

Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

"Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear," complained Nephi's brethren. But Nephi answered by saying, "the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center" (1 Nephi 16:1, 3). Or, to put it in another prophet's words, "Hit pigeons flutter."

Said President Harold B. Lee:

You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life.... Your safety and ours depends upon whether or not we follow.... Let's keep our eye on the President of the Church. [in Conference Report, October 1970, p. 152-153)

But it is the living prophet who really upsets the world. "Even in the Church," said President Kimball, "many are prone to garnish the sepulchres of yesterday's prophets and mentally stone the living ones" (Instructor, 95:257).

Why? Because the living prophet gets at what we need to know now, and the world prefers that prophets either be dead or mind their own business. Some so-called experts of political science want the prophet to keep still on politics. Some would-be authorities on evolution want the prophet to keep still on evolution. And so the list goes on and on.

How we respond to the words of a living prophet when he tells us what we need to know, but would rather not hear, is a test of our faithfulness.

Said President Marion G. Romney, "It is an easy thing to believe in the dead prophets." And then he gives this illustration:

One day when President Grant was living, I sat in my office across the street following a general conference. A man came over to see me, an elderly man. He was very upset about what had been said in this conference by some of the Brethren, including myself. I could tell from his speech that he came from a foreign land. After I had quieted him enough so he would listen, I said, "Why did you come to America?" "I am here because a prophet of God told me to come." "Who was the prophet;" I continued. "Wilford Woodruff." "Do you believe Wilford Woodruff was a prophet of God?" "Yes, I do." "Do you believe that President Joseph F. Smith was a prophet of God?" "Yes, sir."

Then came the sixty-four dollar question. "Do you believe that Heber J. Grant is a prophet of God?" His answer, "I think he ought to keep his mouth shut about old age assistance."

Now I tell you that a man in his position is on the way to apostasy. He is forfeiting his chances for eternal life. So is everyone who cannot follow the living Prophet of God." [in Conference Report, April 1953, p. 125]

Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning. There will be times when you will have to choose between the revelations of God and the reasoning of men--between the prophet and the politician or professor. Said the Prophet Joseph Smith, "Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof until long after the events transpire" (Scrapbook of Mormon Literature, vol. 2, p. 173).

Would it seem reasonable to an eye doctor to be told to heal a blind man by spitting in the dirt, making clay, and applying it to the man's eyes and then telling him to wash in a contaminated pool? Yet this is precisely the course that Jesus took with one man, and he was healed. (See John 9:6-7.) Does it seem reasonable to cure leprosy by telling a man to wash seven times in a particular river? Yet this is precisely what the prophet Elisha told a leper to do, and he was healed. (See 2 Kings 5.)

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. [Isaiah 55:8,9]

Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter--temporal or spiritual.

Said Brigham Young:

Some of the leading men in Kirtland were much opposed to Joseph the Prophet, meddling with temporal affairs... .

In a public meeting of the Saints, I said, "Ye Elders of Israel.... will some of you draw the line of demarcation, between the spiritual and temporal in the Kingdom of God, so that I may understand it?" Not one of them could do it....

I defy any man on earth to point out the path a Prophet of God should walk in, or point out his duty, and just how far he must go, in dictating temporal or spiritual things. Temporal and spiritual things are inseparably connected, and ever will be. [Journal of Discourses, 10:363-364]

Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.

When a people are righteous they want the best to lead them in government. Alma was the head of the Church and of the government in the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith was mayor of Nauvoo, and Brigham Young was governor of Utah. Isaiah was deeply involved in giving counsel on political matters and of his words the Lord Himself said, "Great are the words of Isaiah" (3 Nephi 23:1). Those who would remove prophets from politics would take God out of government.

Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

The learned may feel the prophet is only inspired when he agrees with them; otherwise, the prophet is just giving his opinion--speaking as a man. The rich may feel they have no need to take counsel of a lowly prophet.

In the Book of Mormon we read:

O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches--yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them. [2 Nephi 9:28,29,42]

Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. The honest in heart heed his words, but the unrighteous either ignore the prophet or fight him. When the prophet points out the sins of the world, the worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn't exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Many a prophet has been killed or cast out.

As we come closer to the Lord's second coming, you can expect that as the people of the world become more wicked, the prophet will be less popular with them.

Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency--the highest quorum in the Church.

In the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord refers to the First Presidency as "the highest council of the Church" (107:80) and says, "whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those....the First Presidency, whom I have sent" (112:20).

Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency--the living prophet and the First Presidency--follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer.

President Harold B. Lee relates this incident from Church history:

The story is told in the early days of the Church--particularly, I think, at Kirtland--where some of the leading brethren in the presiding councils of the Church met secretly and tried to scheme as to how they could get rid of the Prophet Joseph's leadership. They made the mistake of inviting Brigham Young to one of these secret meetings. He rebuked them, after he had heard the purpose of their meeting. This is part of what he said: "You cannot destroy the appointment of a prophet of God, but you can cut the thread that binds you to the prophet of God and sink yourselves to hell." [In Conference Report, April 1963, p. 81]

In a general conference of the Church President N. Eldon Tanner stated:

The Prophet spoke out clearly on Friday morning, telling us what our responsibilities are... .

A man said to me after that, "You know, there are people in our state who believe in following the Prophet in everything they think is right, but when it is something they think isn't right, and it doesn't appeal to them, then that's different." He said, "Then they become their own prophet. They decide what the Lord wants and what the Lord doesn't want."

I thought how true, and how serious when we begin to choose which of the covenants, which of the commandments we will keep and follow. When we decide that there are some of them that we will not keep or follow, we are taking the law of the Lord into our own hands and become our own prophets, and believe me, we will be led astray, because we are false prophets to ourselves when we do not to follow the Prophet of God. No, we should never discriminate between these commandments, as to those we should and should not keep. [In Conference Report, October 1966, p. 98]

"Look to the Presidency and receive instruction," said the Prophet Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected by Joseph Fielding Smith [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1938], p. 161). But Almon Babbitt didn't, and in the Doctrine and Covenants section 124, verse 84, the Lord states:

And with my servant Almon Babbitt, there are many things with which I am not pleased; behold, he aspireth to establish his counsel instead of the counsel which I have ordained, even that of the Presidency of my Church.

In conclusion, let us summarize this grand key, these "Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet," for our salvation hangs on them.

First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture.

Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning.

Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.

Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency--the highest quorum in the Church.

Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency--the living prophet and the First Presidency--follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true.if we want to know how well we stand with the Lord, then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain. How closely do our lives harmonize with the words of the Lord's anointed--the living prophet, the President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency?

May God bless us all to look to the prophet and the presidency in the critical and crucial days ahead, is my prayer. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

I would like to point out, that I highlighted the part that the prophet Makes the claim all this is true And that OUR/YOUR SALVATION DEPENDS UPON THEM. So if any LDS state this stuff is not true, remember, we have a serious problem. The problem is, you saying the Prophet is and has taught lies?

LDS using Deception?

I have noticed over the Years, What I feel may be the use of Deception. The Dictionary definfes Deception as,

De·cep·tion
Pronunciation: di-'sep-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : an act of deceiving
2 : something that deceives : DECEIT

Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.


deception
1: a misleading falsehood [syn: misrepresentation, deceit] 2: the act of deceiving [syn: deceit, dissembling, dissimulation] 3: an illusory feat; considered magical by naive observers [syn: magic trick, conjuring trick, trick, magic, legerdemain, conjuration, illusion]

.

Now the Main part of the issue of Deception I want to focus on is this:

1: a misleading falsehood [syn: misrepresentation, deceit]

.

In my years of sharing the Gospel with Mormons, I have noticed way to often, this Use of misleading falsehood. What I mean by, I notice this, Is this. I will talk with Mormon Missionary's for example, And I will ask them, What do you think or believe about the Bible. They will say, We(I) believe the Bible to be the word of God.

They simply stop short, But I know the Articles of faith, I point out that According to Articles of faith number 8.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

Notice, that when I ask the Mormons what they think/believe about the Bible, they seem to forget the words, as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

So simply by saying, We Believe the Bible to be the Word of God, and leaving off the rest is a form of Deception. This is allowing the LDS member to lead people to believe something that even the LDS do not believe. I notice the LDS also do this when I ask, who do you believe Jesus is, Or what do you believe About Jesus.

The Mormons will tell me they believe Jesus is the son of God. The Problem I have with this is, First off those of us who are Bible believing Christians, Believe in the Trinity and One God only. But when Mormons say they believe Jesus is the Son of God, many Christians would think the LDS are saying they believe in the Trinity and one God only. But I know as well as the LDS members that they believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers who were either Created or were once men first, This depends on which view you hold.

Either way, this again is a form of deception. I am sure some LDS members will say that Christians will or due use Deception, This may be true? But if it is I honestly am not aware of it, and I don't use deception. I feel if the LDS really do have the true Gospel, then they should have no use for lying and deception. But if they need to do that, then they really should question if they are following a true beliefs or a lie.

If LDS have examples of Christians Doing this, please post them, I am very opposed to anyone having to lie or deceive to spread the gospel. I also am posting this topic, because I want Christians to be aware of this LDS tactic and point it out when it happens. And I want the LDS to be aware of this, just in case they do this and in all honesty they never realized they were doing it.

Priesthood Authority?

I have talked with many LDS members who keep claiming God gives us and used to create the earth with priesthood authority. I said Show me chapter and verse in either the Bible or BoM where God or the apostles ever said I bestow Priesthood authority upon you or you must have it. The Bible does speak of people having and using authority, but not priesthood authority. The mormons seem to ADD the word Priesthood before the word authority.

Here is a massive list of bible verses that use the word Authority

Est 9:29 Then Esther the queen, the daughter of Abihail, and Mordecai the Jew, wrote with all authority, to confirm this second letter of Purim.
Pro 29:2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.
Mat 7:29 For he taught them as [one] having authority, and not as the scribes.
Mat 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this [man], Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].
Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
Mat 21:23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
Mat 21:24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
Mat 21:27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.
Mar 1:22 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.
Mar 1:27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine [is] this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.
Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them [to him], and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 11:28 And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things?
Mar 11:29 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things.
Mar 11:33 And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.
Mar 13:34 [For the Son of man is] as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
Luk 4:36 And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word [is] this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.
Luk 7:8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].
Luk 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
Luk 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
Luk 20:2 And spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority?
Luk 20:8 And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.
Luk 20:20 And they watched [him], and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words, that so they might deliver him unto the power and authority of the governor.
Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Jhn 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Act 8:27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
Act 9:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
Act 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against [them].
Act 26:12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
2Cr 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Tts 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Any way, look at all the verses I quoted, Show me one where it mentions the word "Priesthood" Before the word authority? It does not. This is simply a word mormons insert as they feel it is needed. Read the Book of Mormon, We find the same thing their. If your going to teach something as fact, or state we must use, or need something and you cannot support it from the Scriptures, I question where you recived your Information from.

Anti's and Hyprocrites

I want to take a look at how LDS seem to feel anyone who tries to examine mormonism is labeled an ANTI-MORMON. I feel that the logic the LDS use to say that people are Anti-Mormon should be applied to them as well. I feel many, not all, but many LDS are bothANTI-Christian, as well as hypocrites. Here is why I say this.

Webster's dictionary defines "ANTI" as one who opposes a group, policy, practice, or proposal.

Even the B.O.M is Anti-Christian. Read

1 Nephi 14:10: Behold there are save two Churches only; the one is the Church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the Church of the Devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the Church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great Church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

Someone please tell me how this is not Anti-Christian. Now let's look at some things the LDS Prophets/Presidents of old have said about us Christians. I quote

B Young: "with a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199). I quote 3rd president John Taylor (Brigham Young quotes Mr Taylor) "Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell, the eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked onto the earth" (J.O.D 6:176). I quote Heber C. Kimball "Christians - those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about - some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth" (J.O.D 5:89).

Now, if people are really honest with themselves here, we reversed this, and had Christians said about the LDS, "they are the biggest whoremasters on the earth," "their religeon was hatched in hell," etc., they would cry out for our blood. Why is it they can say this about us? But yet, when we examine what they believe, we are attacked? Many LDS have even tried to get around the issue of the 1st Nephi quote, "there are only two churches." The LDS know that when the B.O.M speaks about the true church being the Lamb of God, it speaks about their church. So it would stand to reason, ANY church that is not LDS related does or could fall under the Church of the Devil.

In the Book Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie, page 137-138, under Church of the devil, he says just what I said. I quote Mr. McConkie,

The titles church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify ALL CHURCHESor organizations of whatever name or nature-whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious-which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God.

Bruce goes on to say, under the same heading and page,

Any churchor organization of any kind whatever which satisfies the innate religious longings of man and keeps him from coming to the saving truths of Christ and his gospel is therefore not of God.
Hence we find our Lord saying,

"he that is not with me is againt me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."(Matthew.12:30)

And hence we find Alma inviting the wicked to repent and join the true Chruch of Christ and become the sheep of the Good Shepherd.

"And now if ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? he asks. "Behold, I say unto you, that the devil is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold; and know, who can deny this? Behold, I say unto you, whosoever denieth this is a liar and a child of the devil"(Alma 5:39; Jos. Smith 2:19.)

Sometimes I really believe, Mormons either do not know what their scriptures teach, or they really don't care. Read

Jacob 1:19: if we do not teach the word of God with all diligence, then the blood of the people will be upon our heads.

This verse states if we do not teach the word of God, the blood of the people will be on our heads. Well, if I really believe the Mormons are deceived, and try and tell them, I get labeled as an Anti. Then add to that,

Alma 26:29-30 29: And we have entered into their houses and taught them, and we have taught them in their streets; yea, and we have taught them upon their hills; and we have also entered into their temples and their synagogues and taught them; and we have been cast out, and mocked, and spit upon, and smote upon our cheeks; and we have been stoned, and taken and bound with strong cords, and cast into prison; and through the power and wisdom of God we have been delivered again. 30: And we have suffered all manner of afflictions, and all this, that perhaps we might be the means of saving some soul; and we supposed that our joy would be full if perhaps we could be the means of saving some.

The verses in Alma are clear, Mormons went to people and taught them.

This goes along with Articles of Faith - Number 11

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

What is really sad here, is, if I witness to Mormons, I get attacked as an Anti-Mormon. Yet they, according to their scripture, take it to the people and teach them. But according to A of F #11, they say they allow people to worship how, who and where they like. Yet if we use a little logic, we find this is not really true. Here's why. If the LDS come to me and share their gospel with me, even though they might not come out and be so bold as to tell me what I believe is wrong, like I do with them, it stands to reason, If I believe what they teach me or tell me, then I must be wrong. We cannot both be correct. Either my belief is true or theirs is. We can't both be right, especially if our beliefs are vastly different.
Here is more LDS scripture they seem to forget about.
In the Pearl of Great Price, under

Joseph Smith 2:18-19, it says, “18: My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right and which I should join.19: I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the personage who addressed me said that ALL THEIR CREEDS WERE AN ABOMINATION IN HIS SIGHT; THAT THOSE PROFESSORS WERE ALL CORRUPT; THAT THEY DRAW NEAR TO ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEARTS ARE FAR FROM ME, THEY TEACH FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN, HAVING A FORM OF GODLINESS, BUT THEY DENY THE POWER THEREOF.”

In verse 17 it is God the Father and the Son speaking about the state of the Christian Church to Joseph Smith. We as believers are not attacking, we are just responding to Joseph Smith’s statement about our church. Now, here is something the Prophet/President said, I do this, but also find it rather intestering a Prophet would say this.

Read pg. 188 of

Doctrines of Salvation vol. 1, I quote Joseph F Smith. "CHURCH STANDS OR FALLS WITH JOSEPH SMITH. MORMONISM, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed: his claims should be rufuted, and his doctrines shown to be false".

Read also

D and C 71:5-11 98:14,23-26: it says meet your enemy in public. If I am your enemy, which I don't feel I am, it says meet me in public to talk about these things. Jesus said, "Love your enemy." D and C 66:7 68:1,9 says to go into the churches, publicly or privately to discuss these things. D and C 6:9-11 says, Convince us of our error if we have any.

Why do I get accused of being hateful for doing what the scriptures teach? Now let me add this, would you agree that it is good to listen to the mormon prophets? If so, then I am.


I quote Orsan Pratt

The Seer pg. 15. "we ask from you the same generosity--protect us in the exercise of our religious rights--CONVINCE US of our errors of doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of God, and we will be ever grateful for the information, and you will ever have the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God redeeming your fellow beings from the darkness which you may see enveloping their minds".

I am just trying to look at mormonism in a logical way and point out what I believe are problems. I find it interesting that Mormons of old were willing to tell others they were wrong or be open to talks, but it does not appear to be that way today.

Mormon President George A. Smith said on page 216 in volume 14 of the J.O.D.

“If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if it’s preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak.”

I believe this fits the Mormons perfectly, as they really don't want their faith to be examined. Because if you do, then they call you an Anti-Mormon.

Let me end with this. I have been talking on a board called Reach out Trust. They are believers in Jesus who allow different religions to come and talk. This includes mormonism. There is also another board I have been on, called Fair LDS. This is a board run by Mormons. They allow talks of different religions also who want to examine mormonism. There are times where there can be some really heated debate from both sides, even personnal attacks, even from Mormons, as much as they would like people to think otherwise. But anyway, they have on the FairLDS board a comic that slams both Christians and the Reachout Trust board. http://www.fairlds.org/apol/humor/humor02.html

My point on showing this comic is this: if it were believers in Jesus that did this comic and made fun of LDS members, they would cry out for our blood saying we are Anti-Mormon and hateful of them. Yet, they seem to be able to justify it when they do this. This is why I feel the terms Anti and hypocrite can equally be used with LDS members as they apply it to us. Rick Beaudin

Book of Mormon. Another testament? Part 2

The Old Testament is a story about a nation brought forth to present a messiah. The New Testament is the Story of that messiah. We read in

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Notice Jesus said, the Scriptures testify of him. We also read in

Deuteronomy 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold [him] guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

If the Lord Is so serious about his name not being taken in vain, that he makes it one of the Ten commandments, How more serious is he about his Word. We read in

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

God clearly states he puts

His Word

Above his Name. Lets look at some Verses that speak about the Scriptures.

Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Psalm 12:7Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Isa 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

In 2 Timothy 3:16 the phrase By inspiration of God In the Greek means God Breathed

Then when we read the words, for reproof Reproof means (Wrong conduct). And For correction It means (Wrong Doctrine). Can you show me in the BoM where we can use that "Scripture" To correct, reprove, or use for instruction? I don't think so.

Mormons teach, part of the Bible is not translated correctly. you have 2 choices, you can either except the entire Bible as truth from God, or reject it as false, You cannot pick and choose what you like.

The Bible, (Scripture) Clearly declares it is of devine origin and declares it's integrity.

1Cr 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

1Cr 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Jesus Pre-approved the verses above through the Holy Spirit. Read

John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Read these verses yourself, as the list would otherwise be way to long. These verses, presents Gods own speech in the Old Testament.

1 Kings 22:8-16 Nehemiah 8:1 Psalms 119 Jeremiah 25:1-13,36

We read in

Job 42:1-2 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,

Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do every [thing], and [that] no thought can be withholden from thee.

Notice Job said to the Lord, you can do anything! God never disputed Job on that subject. If God was not all powerful, then maybe we would need another Testament. But we don't more scripture. Not only Did Job make the claim that God IS all powerful, but also read

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Even Jesus states their is power in the scripture. And God has power.

Read

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Yet again the Bible claims it is the power of God.

Read

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Here in John, it plainly states, THE WORD IS GOD.. I would not want to mess with the word of God, because to do that you mess with God. and to have another Testament is saying God is not enough, we need more.

Under my topic in part one, Someone left this comment.

Anonymous said...

The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ. This means that its another testimony of the Savior working among another group of people, the Ancient Americans as opposed to His ministry among the Jews. From the Book of Mormon we received a witness that the Lord loves all his children and is involved with all of them.

I would like to reply to this point.

We read in the Great commission, that WE are to preach the gospel unto every living creature.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

Why would Jesus tell us to do this, but then go over himself? Also their is no evidence down through history or Archaeology that the BoM is true. Anyone really interested on this topic should see the Video Book of Mormon V. The Bible. This lays out plenty of evidence that the BoM is not true, by lack of Archaeology evidence.

Book of Mormon. Another testament? Part 1

I would like to cover the Issue of the Book of Mormon being another testament of Jesus Christ. I will cover this in two parts. The first part will cover the BoM and other problems, Part two will go over the Bible.

Here is what I feel is a very good question to put to your LDS friends, I feel this is a good question because I have used it and as of yet I have not had one single Mormon ever answer my question. This is not to say they wont give an answer. But will they answer it or can they truthfully answer it. I personally believe if they are honest with themselves or you, they cannot really answer this question.

Ask your LDS friend or any LDS you happen to be sharing with, if we really do need the BoM as another testament from God, can you supply me with a list off all the teachings from it that are not found in the Bible that will help me get closer to the Lord and help me in my salvation. If not then why do we need it?

I (Rick B) have read all 4 standard works. I see lots of things in the BoM that line up with the Bible but in fact deny LDS beliefs, Such as eternal hell, Trinity, One God alone, No baptism after death Etc. I personally believe the BoM was plagiarized and now we see it in the BoM. I want a list of things that are not in the Bible but in the BoM that get me closer to the Lord. I personally bet no LDS member can provide me with the information I need. This is why you need on going revelation, But along with that, when in the last 200 years did a Mormon Prophet Give a revelation from God that really told us something that Will get us closer to God?

I also asked for something in the BoM not found in the Bible because of A of F 8 and how JS himself made a bold claim that a man will get nearer to God by reading the BoM over any other Book. Joseph Smith said in the History of the Church volume 4, page 461,
"I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by it's precepts, than by any other book".

According to Dictionary.com these are the two meanings to the word precepts.
1. A rule or principle prescribing a particular course of action or conduct.
2. Law. An authorized direction or order; a writ..

I am posting these, because I notice LDS seem to change the definition of words when it denies their teachings. Example, it is said of God in the bible that he is from everlasting. Yet the mormons claim he had a beginning. So is he eternal or did he have a start? I guess it all depends on who's meaning you choose to use.

This is one reason that prove's to me that the BoM is false. I maintain No LDS member can give me the info I want, so instead they will either ignore this question, or refer me to different books, or say something like, If you know what your looking for you will find it.

That is a plain and simple Cop out. Or the 4th way around it will be, you will simply give me things that can be found in the Bible and try and get around it that way. Let me provide a short list of parallel's from the Bible and BoM.

Two articles I covered were the Trinity and the Cross, so you can look at those for more in depth information. But here is a short list we find in the BoM that is also taught in the Bible.

Everlasting Hell/Torment
Jacob 3:11 and 6:10
Mosiah 2:33,38 and 3:24
Alma 3:26,27 and 5:7
Helman 6:28,40 and 7:16

God the Father was never a man,
1st Nephi 11:21,31 and 13:40
2nd Nephi 9:8-9 and 26:12
Mosiah 3:5

God is the Most High God
2 nd Nephi 24:12-14
Jacob 2:5,10
Alma 11:21-41 and 26:14

Death on the Cross
Mosiah 3:8-9
Helman 8:14-15

Trinity
2 Nephi 26:12 and 31:21
Mosiah 15:1-8

I could provide much more on the lists above or even cover other topics found in both the Bible and BoM. So if we look at all these subjects, and say that the Bible covers them as does the BoM, then why do we need the Book of Mormon? If we say that because the Bible covers these subjects clearly and then say lets only go with subjects found in the Book of Mormon that are not found in the Bible that either pertain to my Salvation or help me with my walk with the Lord, can any Mormon in all good faith and honesty provide me with a list of these things from the BoM alone to help further my salvation. I maintain it cannot be done.

If I am correct and it cannot be done, then LDS need to honestly ask the question, Is the Book of Mormon really another testament of Jesus, or is it a false Gospel? If it is a false Gospel, then not only are you believing a lie, but you teaching a lie and sadly you will give an account for this to God on the day of judgment, then you will be cast into the lake of fire where you will be tormented forever. Is this something you are willing to rick for not honestly looking into this matter? Rick B

Atonment. Garden or the Cross?

My next subject of choice, is to cover the Garden or the Cross.
Many LDS member feel the Atonement of Christ took place in the Garden when our Lord sweated great Drops of blood. Not on the Cross as many Believers in the bible alone feel.

I happen to use and like the 1920 edition triple combination bound in leather. In reading the BoM in this edition, I find the word or mention of the Garden in only 4 places.

we find 2 Nephi 2:19 and Alma 42:2 only speaking about Adam and Eve getting thrown out of the garden. And Helaman 7:10 and 9:8,11 speaking about Nephi's garden No mention of the Shedding of Blood for our sins. But we Do read about the Cross or Christ being crucified on the cross for our Sins in the BoM and D and C here in these verses.

Mosiah 3:8-9
Helman 8:14-15 and 14:13-21
3 Nephi 11:14-17 and 20:44 and 27:14 and 28:6-7
Mormon 3:21
Ether 4:1
Moroni 5:1-2 and 10:33
then over in D and C in this long list of verses.
18:11-12 20:23 20:79 21:9 27:2 35:2 45:4,51,52 53:2 76:39,41,69 110:3-5

Now if we look at a few verses in the Old Testament, we find hints of the Cross. We read accounts of the Passover. Their are 71 verses that mention the passover, And when we look at the passover we find the Cross. The blood was put on the door top and sides forming a cross. So when the people would remember the passover they would remember the cross, even though they did not know that was what they were doing.

Another thing we find in the Old Testment in the book of numbers is the placement of the tribes. There were given very specific instructions by God as to how set up camp. some placed in the north, some to the east, some the south and some in the west, with the tabernacle in the center. If you were to hop in a plane and fly over head after this was all set up, you would see the shape of a cross. So every time God looks down at them he see's the Cross, this was what was to come. We do not find this kind of detail about the garden in the Bible or the BoM.

We find a very detailed prophecy of the coming crucifixion of Christ in Psalms 22. We do not read anywhere in the Bible, BoM or any other LDS source this kind of detailed prophecy about the garden.
Below is a list of verses that speak about the Cross.

Mat 27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest [it] in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
Mat 27:42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Mark 15:30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.
Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
Luke 23:26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear [it] after Jesus.
John 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put [it] on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
John 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and [that] they might be taken away.
1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phl 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, [that they are] the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mar 15:21 And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross.
John 19:17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called [the place] of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.

If any one can show me where the atonment really took place in the Garden please show me. Otherwise I hope you search this out for yourselves, Lest your sins are really not forgiven. How can your sins be really forgiven if the atonment you believe took place in the garden really did not happen their?

LDS Prophets cannot agree

JS claims over in D and C 135:3-4 he has done more except Jesus has, well if this is the case why is it that the apostles like Paul, John, Peter and others have books of the Bible named after them and not Joseph? We read in the book of revelation that the names of the 12 apostles will be written on the gates of heaven but no where are any LDS apostles or prophets mentioned, strange how not even the super prophet JS is not mentioned if he ranks second to Jesus?

Now we read J Smith saying in the book History of the Church vol 4, pg 461. "I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by it's precepts, than any other book."

Then over in the book, Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith on pg 71 we read, " Take away the book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? we have none."

Now lets look at what the prophet, Joseph Fielding Smith said. Notice Joseph Smith was the first "prophet" Joseph F Smith was the 10th "prophet/president" of the Church. So as not to confuse with the close names.

We read in the book,

Doctrines of Salvation vol 3, pg 198-199 J.F.S. teaches, " In my judgment their is no book on earth yet come to man as important as the book known as the Doctrine and Covenants, with all due respect to the Book of Mormon, and the Bible, and the pearl of great price, which we say are our standards in Doctrine. The book of Doctrine and Covenants to us stands in a peculiar position above them all.

I am going to tell you why. When I say that, do not for a moment think I do not value the Book of Mormon, the Bible, and the Pearl of Great Price, just as much as any man that lives; I think I do. I do not know of anybody who has read them more, and I appreciate them; they are wonderful; they contain doctrine and revelation and commandments that we should heed; but the Bible is a history containing the doctrine and commandments given to the people anciently. that applies also to the Book of Mormon. It is the doctrine and history and commandments of the people who dwelt upon this continent anciently.

But this Doctrine and Covenants contains the word of God to those who dwell here now. It is our book. It belongs to the Latter Day Saints.

So we find here two prophets disagree on just how important the BoM really is?
Now lets add to this what Ezra Taft Benson taught. He taught the 14 fundamentals of following the brethren. This was the SECOND: The Living Prophet is More Vital to Us Than The Standard Works.

So now we have 3 people, all prophets teaching different things. This leads to another question, if D and C is over the book of Mormon, why do the Mormon missionary's not pass that out? And if the Prophet is over all the 4 standard works, why bother passing them out at all? Why not pass out books of the prophets teachings?

Now lets move on to a sore subject in Mormonism that shows more contradictions. The issue of Plural Wives.

I would like to share my thoughts on this subject. I feel that it was a doctrine of man, by man and for man. Not from God and here is why I say this. In the Journal of Discourses number 5 pg 203 Heber C Kimbal said this and I quote extra for context that some seem to feel people leave out.

"Some quietly listen to those who speak against the lords servants, against his anointed, against the plurality of wives, and against almost every principle that god has revealed. Such persons have a half dozen devils with them all the time. YOU MIGHT AS WELL DENY "MORMONISM," AND TURN AWAY FROM IT, AS TO OPPOSE THE PLURALITY OF WIVES. Let the presidency of this church, and the twelve apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose that doctrine, and the whole of them would be damned. Also we read in vol 3 pg 266, where B Young said and I quote, "Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned. WOW B Young promises we will be damned if we stop this practice. I guess there will be many damned LDS, as the stopped doing this.

Let us add to this

D and C 132 1-3 2. Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter. So here we find it is "supposedly" of God. 3. Therefore ,prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; FOR ALL THOSE WHO HAVE THIS LAW REVEALED UNTO THEM MUST OBEY THE SAME. 4. for behold, I reveal unto you a new and everlasting covenant, then are ye damned;for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory. I would like to point out some things here. First off in D and C 1:14 it says we must obey the lord, the apostles, and the prophets or we will be cut off.

Their, You read it and heard it, so this applies to you, not only to a select few as Mormons claim, otherwise God lied.
Also Since when is new and everlasting only 50 or so years. Everlasting means forever, without end. Again did God lie? It was reveled unto all who hear and read, yet all who hear and read reject this, by saying everlasting means a limited time and limited people. This defies logic.

Read verse 5-6. it is a LAW that you MUST obey. Verse 8 says, Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion. I'm sorry but everlasting only lasting about 50 years, and God said this is for all but Mormons claim it was only for some, is confusion.

Who gave this new and everlasting covenant? The lord did. The lord said for all who have this law revealed unto them MUST obey it. Well if you read D and C or just read what I wrote, you fall under all who have it reveled unto them. Now you must obey it. Not only are Mormons not following D and C 1:14 but the concept of on going revelation now shows it's flaws. Ezra Taft Benson taught the prophet does not need to say thus saith the lord to give us scripture. But the lord was clear he gave us that scripture. But the counsel backed it up as I stated above.

Then Ezra Taft Benson also taught the prophet cannot lead the church astray. so which prophet is leading us astray? The prophets of old followed and taught it, but now deny it.

Hebrews 6:16 say it is impossible for God to lie, Titus 1:2 Enos 6, Ether 3:12 and D and C 62:6 all teach God cannot lie.

So did God lie? He states it is a new and everlasting covenant. Again since when is everlasting only 50 plus years. Also if God did not lie who did? Mormons teach that the plural wife teaching was for a select few men, God said it was for all that it was reveled unto. Again if you heard it, it was reveled unto you, why are you not obeying it?

Now lets look to the book of Mormon. In Jacob 1:15-19 and 2:21-25 it teaches David and Solomon did evil by having many wives. Then in Mosiah 11:2 it teaches many wives is a sin. Now here is a contradiction because in D and C 132:37-39 it says it was not a sin for David Solomon and others to have many wives. Now I thought God could not lie? But Gods word is both in the B.O.M and D and C. So either man wrote it and messed up or God lied.

If the BOM is the fullness of the Gospel why then does it not support D and C 132 About the topic of Plural wives forever.

Then Again if the BOM is the fullness why do we read in Mosiah 11:2 and Ether 10:5 plural wives is a sin, this goes against D and C 132. Add to that Jacob 3:5, the Lamanites are called filthy yet at the same time they are more righteous in their actions because they don't practice plural wives.

D and C 19:26 and 42:12 states both the Bible and BOM contain truth and are the word of God, yet they deny the teaching of plural wives as a good God ordained teaching.

Moroni 8:18 teach's God is unchangble yet he changed his stance, saying plural wives is an abomation by allowing it to happen in D and C 132?. Now I know LDS will reply by saying Plural wives was practiced in the Bible. It was a sin even in the Bible, If God were to punish us with death every time we sinned there would only be plants and animals left on this planet. Now if you want to give your Bible scripture on plural wives please give a scripture(s) from the Bible as clear as D and C 132 Where God says here you go a gift of many wives or Hey you I commanded you to take wives and the more the better. It is not in there. Yes the people sinned and disobeyed the Lord by taking them but God never said this is what I want/commanded you to do.

Let me ask again. Who in Mormonism can we trust?

Now, Mormons claim they are christens also, Lets look at what the Prophets of old said about Christians and I quote:

"B Young: "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199). I quote 3rd president John Taylor (Brigham Young quotes Mr. Taylor) "Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell, the eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked onto the earth" (J.O.D 6:176). I quote Heber C. Kimball "Christians-those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about-some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth" (J.O.D 5:89)." then we can add the first vision by Joseph Smith. If God really did speak to him then he said all the Christian creeds are an abomtion in his sight.

If this is the case how can you say you are Christians. Along this lines I would like to ask also, if you are Christians then why do you try and convert Christians to the Mormon faith if we all are Christians?

OK, Now I will just post problems in general otherwise known as contradictions. But the problem with these is, either The Prophet Joseph Smith claims God told him or God himself said this stuff, Again, who in Mormonism can we trust?.


Over in D and C 7 it teaches John the apostle was to live and preach till the lord returns. Read 3 NEPHI 28:6-7 It teaches the apostle John, Who walked with Jesus, Was told he will never die. Then over in ETHER 12:17 3 more disciples were also told they would never see death. Then read D and C 7:1-8 Ok now if this stuff is true there could never have been a total apostasy of the church, Because there were people who were living that had the gospel truth.

1 NEPHI 1:8 It says " I THOUGHT I SAW GOD" You either did see God or you did not, You cannot say I thought I saw God. Not only that but the Bible teaches no man can see God and live, Also over in D and C 84:19-22 Says if you do not have the priesthood you cannot see God and live. Here is another problem, When this guy said I thought I saw God, There is no mention of him having the priesthood. Also when Joseph Smith first had his vision and said he saw God, Then later said God came and baptized him he did not have the priesthood. So if Joseph Smith could see and talk with God then receive the priesthood, That means D and C 84 is wrong other wise the only other option is Joseph Smith lied. Either way someone lied.

Now here is the subject of Negros and them not being able to receive the same rights as white people according to the Prophet B Young and Bruce Mc. But even this has since changed and has been tried to be buried.

In the 1958 edition Mormon Doctrine ( I happen to own a copy), pg 477 says,

Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES can they hold this delegation of authority from the ALMIGHTY. The GOSPEL message of salvation is not carried AFFIRMATIVELY to them....Negroes are NOT EQUAL with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned.

So please explain how we go from UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES to the change that it is ok in the newer versions of Mormon Doctrine? Also please explain this, B Young clearly states here in

JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES VOL 10 PG 110 (again I own these books) Shall I tell you THE LAW OF GOD in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of cain, the penalty, under the LAW OF GOD, is DEATH on the SPOT. THIS WILL ALWAYS BE SO.

Again how can this be the law of God THAT WILL ALWAYS BE SO, YET IT IS NO LONGER SO?. Any thoughts on why the doctrine changed. In light of the fact that the PROPHET spoke this and claimed it was a LAW of God.

Ok, here is another doctrine that has caused many Mormons major embarrassment. it's the Adam God Doctrine. In short, B Young taught Adam from the garden of Eden is our God and father. This is found in vol 1 of the journal of discourses. there is to much to post here. I am posting very little of what B Young said on this subject. But if any Mormon reads this and feels I am wrong please explain how and why. I Own the entire JoD and have read in context the entire Adam God teachings.

I quote in CONTEXT what B young TAUGHT. "Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner. If you read this then I believe you fall under Inhabitant of the earth, B young said NOW HEAR IT.

this is his teaching.

When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. pause. let me point out how can ADAM HELP MAKE THIS WORLD WHEN THE BIBLE TEACHES GOD CREATED IT FIRST WITH EVERYTHING GOOD TO GO, HE CREATED ADAM FROM THE DUST. Start up again, He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken-- He is our FATHER and our GOD. and the only God with whom we have to do.

Notice what B young is about to say here,

Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, MUST HEAR IT, and will know it sooner or later. notice B Young claims we will hear it sooner or later, and every man must KNOW IT. you fall under every man, you heard it. . This is very important here, notice B Young claims "Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause. notice he said all who hear, you heard and he said they are doctrines. resume, before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their SALVATION or DAMNATION.

MORMONS REJECT THESE TEACHINGS, AS YOU SEE HE CLEARLY TEACHES THIS IS DOCTRINE. are you gonna be dammed for denying it.

Now lets look at something else B Young said. In the book Discourses of BY pg 194 1925 edition also found in JOD vol 1 pg 237 a person ask's BY a question.

I ask you, brother B, how I must believe the Bible, and how shall you and every other follower of the Lord Jesus Christ believe it? BY replies with. "Brother Mormon, how do you believe it?" I believe it just as it is. I do not believe in putting any man's interpretation upon it, whatever, unless it should be directed by the Lord himself in some way. I do not believe we need interpreters and expounders of the Scriptures, to wrest them from there literal, plain, simple meaning.

Now according to BY, if he believes the Bible as it is, Then I believe we could apply that to other LDS teachings. When I said LDS redefine meanings, God said I am eternal, hell is everlasting and eternal. Yet when I point out God the father was not once man who progressed first because the Bible does not teach it, also God the father states I am eternal. Now according to LDS eternal Really means He had a beginning, yet the dictionary claims Eternal is without a beginning. You name it, we disagree because you guys when we take something at face value and point out the LDS teach... then all of a sudden the meaning is twisted to fit LDS definition so as to mean something different.

Now here is a nice little bit of things to think about.

3 Nephi 26:2-3 say 3:and He (Jesus) did expound all things from the beginning until the time that he should come in his glory.

If Jesus taught ALL things why are we missing at least 12 major lds doctrine from the BOM. Also read over in

3 Nephi 26:6 And now there cannot be written in this book even a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people.

Now how can the BOM claim Jesus taught all things but yet not all things are written for us. The biggest problem I see is LDS teach the Bible is missing books and precious parts, well it would appear by these verses so is the BOM?

But over in D and C 18:4 and 20:8-9 it teaches all things are written in the BOM, so are they or not?. Then over in D and C 42:12 it teaches principles of Jesus gospel are in the Bible and BOM, so again if this is true, why are we missing major doctrines from it?. Then again on the topic of missing books from the Bible, what about 1 Nephi 1:15-16. it says a full account of the things made unto him, so did the Lord only show some things which make up the full account.

Ok over in 1 Nephi 13:26-27 it says the plain and precious things are missing. Can anyone tell me what these things are, and how can you prove they are the plain and precious things, not just any ol list you choose.



Alma 34:32-35 claims no second chance after death, IE no baptism for the dead. Yet Mormonism teaches baptism for the dead. But Mormonism also teaches God cannot change, so it appears he has changed.

2 Nephi 11:7 teaches if God did not exist there would have been no creation. Yet there were other Gods before God the father according to Mormonism, I would be willing to suspect they could have done it instead.

Mormonism teaches the Trinity is 3 separate Gods, Born Again Christians say 3 people who form ONE ETERNAL GOD. 2 Nephi 26:12 says Jesus is the Christ THE ETERNAL GOD. Not a God or one of the Gods. It teaches HE (Jesus) is God.

So who really can we trust and even if you said well we can trust so and so or his teachings, how can I really know for sure that their correct. If I follow mormon logic and "pray about this" and feel that it is correct, yet another LDS member prays about something totally different (contradictory) and they feel they are correct then we are back at square one again.

here is an example, in Doct of Sal vol 2 pg 1 of chapter 1 heading says SALVATION.
below that it says THE PLAN OF SALVATION.

TRUTHS of SALVATION EASILY UNDERSTOOD.
Salvation should be a subject uppermost in the minds of all men. It is, without question the most important subject that could possibly be considered, and yet there are so few among the many who pay any attention whatever to this great and important theme, as it may be applied in their lives.

Joseph F Smith feels this is of major importance. If it is then how can we know what is correct and what is false if no one can seem to get things straight. If salvation is of major importance then how come the Bible teaches we must call upon the name of the Lord to be saved, no works needed, look at the jailer in Acts. Then no mention of all the works needed to be saved in the book of Mormon, yet Mormonism teaches we must obey all the laws to be saved.

read pg 9 of doc of salvation vol 2. Here J.F.S states what I said.

"what is eternal life? it is to have a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. no one receives eternal life except those who receive the exaltation. eternal life is the greatest gift of God; immortality is not. the Lord says; verily verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. everlasting life in this passage is the same as eternal life".

In that section there J.F.S. states eternal life is the same as exaltation and no works expect belief are mentioned. But in an earlier post from the same book he stated not half the LDS will be saved. If belief as he states is all that is needed then you could be lead to believe LDS don't believe.

Now here is two more problems. First one is, Joseph Smith stated in "Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith pg 107" His brother Alvin entered into the exaltation with out doing a thing, not even baptism which according to the LDS is a requirement. know Joseph Smith states here in Doc of Salvation vol 1 pg 98, "Joseph Smith taught a plurality of Gods, and that man by obeying the commandments of God and keeping the whole law will eventually reach the power and exaltation by which he also will become a God.

I find it interesting how the prophets brother makes it into exaltation with out keeping the law, yet these two prophets seem to disagree. One disagree's or contradicts himself, by stating his brother was in and he admits this was a surprise, but then goes on to say we must obey the WHOLE LAW. Then the other prophet states we need only to believe. This is why I feel their is much confusion, and even though you feel Bruce was wrong on some issues, that fact remains that every one disagrees with some one within the LDS church or they disagree with the 4 standard works.

I pointed out some time ago how these 2 prophets even disagreed as to the BOM or D and C being more important. So the question still remains who is correct in all of this and even after you or someone else say this person is correct how can we truly trust that person to be correct? I also would point out along this lines that within Christian circles, lets say pastors from a few different demonitions were to write books on the church, the gifts, holy spirit, ect and it denied the Bible, well then that's easy, the pastors are wrong the Bible is correct. Not so with in Mormonism, to much confusion, so much so that so-called prophets even disagree with each other and the 4 standard works.

Well I have shown plenty of the Prophets and Presidents and how they don't agree with each other or the 4 standard works. So let me end with this last few things. This is a teaching of the LDS that I happen to follow very faithfully. (SHOCK) a non-lds Member that really is following the church's teachings, yep for once I am. Here it goes.

Read pg 188 of Doct of Salvation vol 1.

I quote Joseph F Smith. "CHURCH STANDS OR FALLS WITH JOSEPH SMITH. MORMONISM, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. Their is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed: his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false".

Read also

D and C 71:5-11 98:14,23-26 it says meet your enemy in public. If I am your enemy which I don't feel I am but if I am it says meet me in public to talk about this stuff. Jesus said love your enemy. D and C 66:7 68:1,9 go into the church's public or private to discuss this stuff. D and C 6:9-11 say convince us of our error if we have any. why do I get accused of being hateful for doing what the scriptures teach. now let me add this, would you agree it is good to listen to the Mormon prophets? if so, then I am.


I quote Orsan Pratt still pg 15. "we ask from you the same generosity--protect us in the exercise of our religious rights--CONVINCE US of our errors of doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of god, and we will be ever grateful for the information, and you will ever have the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God redeeming your fellow beings from the darkness which you may see enveloping their minds".

I am just trying to look at Mormonism in a logical way and point out what I believe are problems. I find it interesting that Mormons of old were willing to tell others they were wrong or be open to talks. but it does not appear to be that way today. I hope this really makes you examine your faith. If you would like to talk privately off line you are more than welcome. Rick Beaudin

Aritcles of Faith number 8 part 2

I would like to focus on what the second half of the Articles of faith number 8 says.

Number 8 says:
" We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."

In part one, we covered the first half. Today, we will cover the second half. In all honesty, the second half should say, "We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly."

There was a time in the Mormon church that they denied there were problems with the BoM. But now, we know there are around 4,000 changes to the BoM. LDS members will try and say, "This is no big deal, they are minor changes." There are doctrinal changes which are not minor. But even the minor changes are still changes. So because there are changes that have been made, this means it also was not translated correctly.

Here are a few examples of major doctrinal change.

Here we read in the original 1830 edition:
1st Nephi 11:21 "And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father."

Now look at the 1920 Edition:
1st Nephi 11:21 "And the angel said unto me: behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father!"

The words "Son of the" were added. this really changes the meaning. We go from reading the trinity to three separate Gods here.


Read 1 Nephi 11:32 in the 1830 edition:
"And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the everlasting God, was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record."


1Nephi 11:32 in the 1920 edition:
"And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Son of the everlasting God was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record."

Notice again, the words "the son of the" were added. Again we go from Jesus Son of God being the eternal God, the trinity, versus many gods.

Here is another very serious change.

1st Nephi 13:40 in the 1830 edition:
"And shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Saviour of the world; and that all men must come unto Him, or they cannot be saved."

1st Nephi 13:40 in the 1920 edition:
"And shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved."

Again, the words "is the Son of" are added.
We read in the book, History of the Church Vol 4 pg 461, Joseph Smith said, "I told the Brethren That the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on the earth." So much for the most correct book of any, if there are 4,000 changes to it.

We read in Doctrine and Covenants 17:6 "And he has translated the book, even that part which I have commanded him, and as your Lord and your God liveth it is true."

God told Joseph Smith to translate the BoM, so if it was done by the Lord's power, why was there even one single change? Another reason why even one single change made in the BoM means major problems is this:

We read From David Whitmer's An Address to All Believers in Christ:

QUOTE
"I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man."

If, for example, Joseph Smith said to Oliver, "Letter B," and Oliver wrote down the letter D instead of the letter B as Joseph said, then the letter B would remain; only after Oliver wrote it down correctly would the letter disappear. So there could not have been one single change in the BoM.

I do not think the BoM was translated correctly, therefore, the Articles of Faith should be correctly worded, "In so far as the Book Of Mormon is translated correctly."