Is baptism required for salvation?

My next topic will be the issue of, Are we saved by baptism?

Below is a teaching taken from the LDS.org website, given by Brigham Young. Please read it over, then I will address some issues from it.

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young
Repentance and Baptism


“Chapter 9: Repentance and Baptism,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, 61

On a cold, snowy day in April 1832, Brigham Young was baptized in the icy waters of his own millstream by Eleazer Miller, a four-month convert to the Church. Of this he said, “I felt a humble, childlike spirit, witnessing unto me that my sins were forgiven” (MHBY-1, 2–3). He taught that water itself does not have “any virtue to wash away sin” (DBY, 159) but that baptism is effective in cleansing us from sin when administered by those in authority to those who are accountable and when preceded by repentance and followed by sincere effort to honor baptismal covenants.
Teachings of Brigham Young
As our understanding increases, so do our accountability and responsibility.

Sin consists in doing wrong when we know and can do better, and it will be punished with a just retribution, in the due time of the Lord (DBY, 156).

Though we may do the best we know how at this time, can there be no improvement made in our lives? There can. If we do wrong ignorantly, when we learn it is wrong, then it is our duty to refrain from that wrong immediately and for ever (DBY, 156).
We can make the Atonement effective in our lives through sincere repentance.

If I have injured any person, I ought to confess to that person and make right what I did wrong (DBY, 158).

I believe in coming out and being plain and honest with that which should be made public, and in keeping to yourselves that which should be kept. … Tell to the public that which belongs to the public. If you have sinned against the people, confess to them. If you have sinned against a family or a neighborhood, go to them and confess. … If you have sinned against one individual, take that person by yourselves and make your confession to him (DBY, 158).

When men truly and heartily repent, and make manifest to the heavens that their repentance is genuine by obedience to the requirements made known to them through the laws of the Gospel, then are they entitled to the administration of salvation, and no power can withhold the good spirit from them (DBY, 156).

Some of our old traditions teach us that a man guilty of atrocious and murderous acts may savingly repent when on the scaffold; and upon his execution will hear the expression, “Bless God! he has gone to heaven, to be crowned in glory, through the all-redeeming merits of Christ the Lord.” This is all nonsense. Such a character never will see heaven. Some will pray, “O that I had passed through the veil on the night of my conversion!” This proves the false ideas and vain notions entertained by the Christian world (DBY, 157).
Baptism is an essential ordinance for our salvation.

We, the Latter-day Saints, believe in being baptized by immersion for the remission of sins, according to the testimony of the disciples of Jesus and the revelations of the Lord given in these last days. Infants are pure, they have neither sorrow of heart, nor sins to repent of and forsake, and consequently are incapable of being baptized for the remission of sin. If we have sinned, we must know good from evil; an infant does not know this, it cannot know it; it has not grown into the idea of contemplation of good and evil; it has not the capacity to listen to the parent or teacher or to the priest when they tell what is right or wrong or what is injurious; and until these things are understood a person cannot be held accountable and consequently cannot be baptized for the remission of sin [see Moroni 8] (DBY, 158–59).

There is no ordinance that God has delivered by his own voice, through his Son Jesus Christ, or by the mouths of any of his Prophets, Apostles or Evangelists, that is useless. Every ordinance, every commandment and requirement is necessary for the salvation of the human family (DBY, 152).

If you have been righteous from your birth up, and have never committed known sins and transgressions, be baptized to fulfill all righteousness, as Jesus was. If you can say you have no sins to repent of, forsake your false theories, and love and serve God with an undivided heart (DBY, 159).

All Latter-day Saints enter the new and everlasting covenant when they enter this Church. They covenant to cease sustaining, upholding and cherishing the kingdom of the Devil and the kingdoms of this world. They enter the new and everlasting covenant to sustain the Kingdom of God and no other kingdom. They take a vow of the most solemn kind, before the heavens and earth, and that, too, upon the validity of their own salvation, that they will sustain truth and righteousness instead of wickedness and falsehood, and build up the Kingdom of God, instead of the kingdoms of this world (DBY, 160).

However much we may profess attachment to God and his cause we are not entitled to the blessings and privileges of his Kingdom until we become citizens therein. How can we do this? By repenting of our sins, and obeying the requirements of the Gospel of the Son of God which has been delivered to us. Hundreds and thousands of people have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and repented of their sins, and have had the Holy Spirit to witness unto them that God is love, that they loved him and that he loved them, and yet they are not in his Kingdom. They have not complied with the necessary requirements, they have not entered in at the door (DBY, 152–53).

You have not the power to baptize yourselves, neither have you power to resurrect yourselves; and you could not legally baptize a second person for the remission of sins until some person first baptized you and ordained you to this authority (DBY, 160).

Has water, in itself, any virtue to wash away sin? Certainly not; but the Lord says, “If the sinner will repent of his sins, and go down into the waters of baptism, and there be buried in the likeness of being put into the earth and buried, and again be delivered from the water, in the likeness of being born—if in the sincerity of his heart he will do this, his sins shall be washed away.” [See D&C 128:12–13.] Will the water of itself wash them away? No; but keeping the commandments of God will cleanse away the stain of sin (DBY, 159).
Suggestions for Study
As our understanding increases, so do our accountability and responsibility.

*

• How did President Young define sin? (See also James 4:17.)
*

• What did President Young teach about our responsibility as we increase in knowledge of right and wrong? (See also 2 Nephi 9:25–27.)
*

• What should be our attitude about improving our lives? (See also Alma 34:33.) What does this teach us about knowledge, accountability, and responsibility?

We can make the Atonement effective in our lives through sincere repentance.

*

• What is the consequence of true repentance? Why is obedience to the laws of the gospel a necessary part of repentance?
*

• What did President Young teach about deathbed repentance?

Baptism is an essential ordinance for our salvation.

*

• What part does baptism play in coming unto Christ? (See also Moroni 8:25–26.)
*

• What did President Young teach about who should and should not be baptized? Why is it inappropriate to baptize those who are not accountable? (See also Moroni 8:9–14.) What did President Young say to accountable people who say they have no sin?
*

• President Young taught that all the ordinances of the gospel, including baptism, are necessary for our salvation. How have the ordinances of the gospel blessed your life?
*

• President Young taught that “all Latter-day Saints enter the new and everlasting covenant when they enter this Church.” When we are baptized, what do we covenant to do? What do we covenant to refrain from doing? (See also Mosiah 18:8–10.)
*

• Why is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and loving Him not enough alone to enter in at the door of His kingdom?
*

• Why must one be “ordained … to this authority” to baptize?
*

• According to President Young, what is the significance and symbolism of baptism? (See also Romans 6:3–6, 11; Moses 6:58–60; 1 John 5:7–8.) President Young explained that “water, in itself, [has not] any virtue to wash away sin.” What will cleanse us from sin?

Lets now review what Brigham Young said and taught.
First he said

He taught that water itself does not have “any virtue to wash away sin” (DBY, 159) but that baptism is effective in cleansing us from sin when administered by those in authority to those who are accountable and when preceded by repentance and followed by sincere effort to honor baptismal covenants.

We, the Latter-day Saints, believe in being baptized by immersion for the remission of sins, according to the testimony of the disciples of Jesus and the revelations of the Lord given in these last days.

You have not the power to baptize yourselves, neither have you power to resurrect yourselves; and you could not legally baptize a second person for the remission of sins until some person first baptized you and ordained you to this authority (DBY, 160).

Has water, in itself, any virtue to wash away sin? Certainly not; but the Lord says, “If the sinner will repent of his sins, and go down into the waters of baptism, and there be buried in the likeness of being put into the earth and buried, and again be delivered from the water, in the likeness of being born—if in the sincerity of his heart he will do this, his sins shall be washed away.” [See D&C 128:12–13.] Will the water of itself wash them away? No; but keeping the commandments of God will cleanse away the stain of sin (DBY, 159).

All these things taught by the Prophet Brigham Young are false. You cannot find any of this taught in Gods Word, You will find this taught in the Bible.

1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Those verses from the Word of God show, Baptism does not remove our Sin, only the Blood of Jesus Christ can take away our sin.

Brigham Young goes on to say

When men truly and heartily repent, and make manifest to the heavens that their repentance is genuine by obedience to the requirements made known to them through the laws of the Gospel, then are they entitled to the administration of salvation, and no power can withhold the good spirit from them (DBY, 156).

Yet again, we are told/taught by Brigham Young to obey the laws in order to be saved, this is simply not taught in the Bible, But here again we read this in Scripture.

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

John 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

John 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

John 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Notice Jesus said this, Not me. Now Lets re-word part of it this way, the Bible says, the People came to Jesus and said, So lets instead say, The LDS Prophets and Presidents came to Jesus and said, John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

The LDS said, Works, (Plural) More than one work, as they Love works and require works for salvation.

Yet Jesus replies with, John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Notice Jesus says (Work) Singular, one work, that is to Believe on the One God hath sent, Jesus is the One God Sent. If we love Jesus and God we will keep His commandments and that is simply to believe.

Now let me also ask this,
Do you know ALL His commandments - could you write them out for me please? I don't think you can, and if you don't know them all then you cannot fulfill all the laws and command's. That is the problem of works you must always continue but never make it.

Now Brigham Young goes on to say

Some of our old traditions teach us that a man guilty of atrocious and murderous acts may savingly repent when on the scaffold; and upon his execution will hear the expression, “Bless God! he has gone to heaven, to be crowned in glory, through the all-redeeming merits of Christ the Lord.” This is all nonsense. Such a character never will see heaven. Some will pray, “O that I had passed through the veil on the night of my conversion!” This proves the false ideas and vain notions entertained by the Christian world (DBY, 157).
Baptism is an essential ordinance for our salvation.

In order to be saved you must be baptized? The reason why this is a big deal is this, What about all the People who on their death bed confess Christ, according to the Bible they will be saved, Yet not according to Mormonism, because they were not baptized.

If I were a Mormon Missionary, and I was Honest and up front in giving out the LDS gospel to a dying person, I would have to say, sorry I cannot preach the Gospel to you, or I have no good news to give you, because while the Bible says, Salvation comes by confession, you need to add the Mormon Gospel which teaches works, entering the temple and needing to be baptized first. Sadly your about to die and cannot do this. Where is the Love and grace in this godless religion?

Lets look at what the Bible teaches.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

See these verses so that if we call upon the name of the Lord and confess our sins, we shall be forgiven, no mention of, if we were dying we can not be forgiven.

Brigham Young said

Baptism is an essential ordinance for our salvation.

If this is true, then why do we not read any accounts of Jesus or the Apostles ever once saying, In order to be saved, you must be baptized. Then in the Bible I read accounts of Jesus not baptizing, and the apostle Paul claiming Jesus did not send him to baptize.

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,

John 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,).

1Cr 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

1Cr 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

1Cr 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Act 16:27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.

Act 16:28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.

Act 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

I read in these verses, no mention of needing to be baptized to be saved.

Let me end with this, Brigham Young and many other LDS teach in order to be saved, WE MUST OBEY ALL OF GODS LAW'S. If this is true, why are we told to be baptized to be saved when this is not taught as a law, But yet Brigham young, D and C and God supposedly gave the LDS law's like Polygamy, D and C 132, or Adam God and Blood atonement, Blacks not allowed to hold the priesthood, Word of Wisdom, and things such as this, that Brigham Young very clearly stated, these are laws given to him by god himself and you will be damned for not obeying. Seems the LDS pick and choose what laws they will obey and what laws they will deny. Rick b

An Email question I recived.

Below is a question I recived via E-mail. I answer all E-mail questions. I removed the Persons last name and E-mail Address. First is His question then my reply. I am posting this in hopes that it will help someone with the same type of question, We are still talking and he is still asking other questions. I think it is great to be used by God like this.

Dear Mister Rick

Im a 20 year old portuguese student and I've discovered today your blog through the Mormon Coffee Blog.

Im a child of God, according to John 1:12.

I've accepted Jesus in my heart when I was 12 and since then, I've been growing in His Word, the Holy Bible.
I'm an active member of my Protestant Evangelical church and I also take part of the "sacrement" (I'm not sure if it's called that way in english when you eat and drink the bread and wine representing Jesus' Body and Blood.)

I'm sorry for taking your time, but I have an important question to ask you.

In October 2006, two missionaries knocked at my dor. They told me about the restauration (again, not sure if this is the right word ;] ) of the Gospel, the profet Joseph Smith and their church, the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS.

Since that day, I've been spending a lot of time not only with the missionaries, but also with many members of their church.
The reason that made me receive those missionaries at my house is that I love to talk about Jesus and my faith.

At the first meeting they gave me the Book of Mormon, which I'm trying to read every time I can.
Their deal was in simple words "read this, pray about it, get the answer of the Holy Spirit and get baptized".

So they asked me if I would want to mark a day in the calendar for my baptism, so it would be a proof of faith, and my answer would come easier.

Logically I declined the offer. I would never commit myself for baptism if I wouldnt be sure God would be leading me that way.

As our meetings became inumerous, I realized how far their doctrines were from the one's I had been taught, and how really a "big deal" it would be to become a member of their church.

So far, they talked about many subjects such as "Many Gods", "Baptism of the Dead", "Salvation with works", "Eternal Marriage" etc, etc...

But there are some reasons that made me keep on meeting with them. I've noticed some things in their church that I do not see in mine:
1. One only doctrine (in Portugal we have a LOT of evangelical churches with different doctirnes like "the Assembly of God", "Pentecostal", "Baptists", "Metodists"...)
2. The members' friendship, example and devotion
3. An impressive Missionary work

And also the though "If the Book of Mormom is wrong, where and how did it came from?"

But the most important issue for me is their teaching about how the Bible was corrupted in the sixth century, taking as the Book of Mormon says "some precious parts out of it".

So till now, they couldn't impress me with biblical proof, but... And here comes my question:
How can I know that the Bible is 100%, with every single letter, correct?

I would really be gratetful if you could somehow give me a breef comment about my issue, but if you don't have the time, I understand it.


I hope God may bless you*

Your brother Marvin

This was my answer to him,



Hello Marvin,
You were asking about how you can know if the Bible is really Gods word. Let me point out a few verses about what the Bible says about it's self. Let me add also, Mormons or people in general might say, well if the Bible says something about it's self how can it be trusted.

First off, the Bible is 66 books written by 40 different authors over 1000's of years. So lets read these verses here.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Here in John 1, it tells us, the Word is God. But Who is the Word? The Word is Jesus, because we know Jesus is God. Now if Jesus is the Word and we read in Psalm 138:2 that God places His Word above His name,

Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy loving kindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

And we know that God according to the Ten Commandments takes His name very seriously and we will be held accountable for taking it in vain, then He is even more serious about His word. So if the Word is God, then we can and Should be able to trust it.

Something I believe the Mormons have not seriously thought about is this, They will tell you According to A. of F. 8 the Bible is the Word of God in so far as it is translated correctly. Then they will go on to say, But the Book of Mormon is THE WORD OF GOD.

Yet they never point out to anyone that their are around 4,000 changes to the Book of Mormon. So if the want to use A. of F. 8 then I suggest they either re-word it to say Both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are trustworthy and are the Word of God, or neither can be trusted, or simply remove it all together, Yet I believe the LDS are being dishonest by knowing this and not saying anything. Lets add to that, the LDS have a copy of what is Called the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible, Sadly they never use it. Oh they will tell you they do, And really they only use it as footnotes in the Book of Mormon. I did an in depth article on my Blog about that issue. Briefly, Joseph Smith "Corrected" the Problems in the Bible as God commanded him to do by way of Revelation in the Doctrine and covenants, So why don't the LDS pass that out and carry it with them?

We read in the Bible Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Notice they did not pray for truth, they searched the Scriptures. Have you ever noticed, Jesus and the Apostles Quoted from OT prophets and sources, They talk about Moses, King David, Enoch, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob And many others. Notice Jesus and the Apostles never quote from the Book of Mormon Prophets, I have to wonder why? I say it is because the Book of Mormon is not real. Their is an account of the Tower of Babel in the Book of Mormon, and time lines in the Book of Mormon Place some events to times to around 4,000 plus years ago, if these are real, why did Jesus Not quote them.

Then add to that, the Hall of Faith in the Book of Hebrews, Chapter 11, Not one Book of Mormon person ever mentioned in the Hebrews hall of Faith, Again I ask, Why? I believe this is evidence to Prove the Bible is real and the Book of Mormon is false.

A few more Bible verses, John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

I have read all 4 standard works by the LDS Church, Nothing of theirs makes this kind of Claim.

2Timothy 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

If the Bible cannot be trusted, How can I use it then to Correct error?

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

How can Hebrews be true if the Bible cannot be trusted? The Book of Mormon does not make these claims.

Now lets move on to an interesting topic here, Archaeology. An Author named Robert cornuke, He wrote a book called (The Lost Shipwreck of Paul). This guy used the Bible as a guide, He read the account of Paul on the Ship heading to Rome, Before the Ship was wrecked, they dropped to Anchors and then headed to Shore, the Island of Malta, Well after all these years they found the two anchors and cleaned them up and gave them to the president of the Island as a gift. Can the LDS use the so called details of the Maps found in the Book of Mormon to find stuff? The simple answer is no they have not and cannot. You can buy the Book I mentioned from amazon.com If you want a copy. Here is a story from the Book of Mormon that poses problems.

THE BOOK OF ETHER
CHAPTER 15
Millions of the Jaredites are slain in battle—Shiz and Coriantumr assemble all the people to mortal combat—The Spirit of the Lord ceases to strive with them—The Jaredite nation is utterly destroyed—Only Coriantumr remains.

1 And it came to pass when Coriantumr had recovered of his wounds, he began to remember the words which Ether had spoken unto him.

2 He saw that there had been slain by the sword already nearly two millions of his people, and he began to sorrow in his heart; yea, there had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children.

This massive battle would be modern day New York. Yet of the over two million dead, their is not even one Single coin found to prove this battle took place, LDS have never found one single shred of Evidence in the way of, Coins, Artwork, City's ,nothing. Christians have much in the way of evidence, They have even uncovered the Entire City of Nineveh. Yet the LDS have Nothing.

Lets look at the Dead Sea Scrolls, We found the dead sea Scrolls, these prove the Bible is the Word of God. We can compare the texts of our modern days to the really old, thousands of years old, Sea Scrolls and compare that the Word of God is intact.

But now lets look at the Book of Mormon. Not only is the issue of 4,000 Changes a big deal but, the LDS try and say, it is only minor Changes like, little words, IF and AN or BUT, or nothing more than grammar. This might be true, but here is why it is still a very big deal.

This an an account of how the Book of Mormon was translated.
From David Whitmer's An Address to All Believers in Christ (about 2/3 down the page, a few paragraphs above Whitmer's quoting of the preface of the Book of Mormon)


QUOTE
I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.

Now Not all LDS agree on this being true. But if it is true, then their could not be one single mistake ever in the Book of Mormon, not even with one Single letter. Then their are a few Doctrinal Mistakes. The LDS deny the trinity, yet the Original Book of Mormon state Jesus IS GOD, Now they say Jesus is A God. So that is simply more evidence the Book of Mormon is not the Word of God.

Then we can cover the Issue of Prophecy.
Lets look at one false Prophecy by the LDS.

This false Prophecy was taken from Doctrine and covenants chapter 84
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, September 22 and 23, 1832. HC 1: 286–295. During the month of September, elders had begun to return from their missions in the eastern states and to make reports of their labors. It was while they were together in this season of joy that the following communication was received. The Prophet designates it a revelation on priesthood.
1–5, The New Jerusalem and the temple shall be built in Missouri; 6–17,

1 A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.

2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.

3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.

4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.

5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

6 And the sons of Moses, according to the Holy Priesthood which he received under the hand of his father-in-law, Jethro.

Not only has this temple never been built, but the LDS no longer even own the Land. The average LDS will give some sort of excuse as to how this will still be yet fulfilled, Sadly though it is still a false Prophecy. Notice also that it states this is a Word Given by God. If God really said it, it would have come to pass, Now to date it has been 200 plus years, That is a long, long generation.

Now lets look at some Prophecy from the Bible that has been clearly fulfilled.

SUBJECT PROPHECY FULFILLMENT
The Messiah would heal the blind Isaiah 35:5a Mark 10:51-52

The Messiah would heal the deaf Isaiah 35:5b Mark 7:32-35

The Messiah would heal the lame Isaiah 35:6a Matthew 12:10-13

The Messiah would be the messenger of the new covenant Malachi 3:1c Luke 4:43

The Messiah would be the new covenant Isaiah 42:6c Matthew 26:28

The Messiah would be the new covenant Jeremiah 31:31 Matthew 26:28

The Messiah would come to make an end to sins Daniel 9:24a Galatians 1:3-5

The Messiah would provide freedom from the bondage of sin and death Isaiah 61:1-2c John 8:31-32Isaiah 61:1-2c

Over all Marvin, the Bible has around 1,800 prophecy that have either been fulfilled or are going to be, can the Book of Mormon do that? Nope, not even close.

I hope this helps you, I will try and help you if you have any other questions, Just write me. Rick b

Amazing Grace?

My next topic will cover the Issue of Grace. I was talking with a Mormon who was talking about the new movie (Amazing grace) Coming out soon. I asked him, for an LDS member, how exactly is it Amazing Grace? I asked that because according to the LDS Church, we are saved by grace plus works after all we can do.

Read what after all we can do means.:

'After all we can do' includes extending our best effort. 'After all we can do' includes living His commandments. 'After all we can do' includes loving our fellowmen and praying for those who regard us as their adversary. 'After all we can do' means clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and giving 'succor [to] those who stand in need of [our] succor' (Mosiah 4:15)—remembering that what we do unto one of the least of God's children, we do unto Him. (See Matt. 25:34-40; D&C 42:38.) 'After all we can do' means leading chaste, clean, pure lives, being scrupulously honest in all our dealings and treating others the way we would want to be treated. ("After All We Can Do," Christmas Devotional, Salt Lake City, Utah, Dec. 9, 1982; quoted in Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson.)" ("Savior accomplished atoning sacrifice through His grace," LDS Church News, 02/03/96, page 14.)

“President Harold B. Lee treated the topic of working out one's salvation in one of his books, Stand Ye in Holy Places: 'We hear much from some persons of limited understanding about the possibility of one's being saved by grace alone. But it requires the explanation of another prophet to understand the true doctrine of grace as he explained in these meaningful words: "For," said this prophet, "we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Ne. 25:23.) Truly we are redeemed by the atoning blood of the Savior of the world, but only after each has done all he can to work out his own salvation.'"("Work out salvation with fear and trembling," LDS Church News, 09/14/91, page 14.)

“As is the case with all gospel principles, the doctrine of individual accountability grows out of the atoning sacrifice of Christ. Teaching these principles, Nephi testified that we are saved by grace, but only "after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23.) It is by the grace of Christ that we have granted to us the materials of life with which we can build, but God does not do the building for us. The responsibility of building with those materials is ours. The plan of salvation is in a large measure a do-it-yourself project” (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Seeking the Spirit, page 99.)

“In the plan of salvation God does for human beings only what they cannot do for themselves. Man must do all he can for himself. The doctrine is that we are saved by grace, 'after all we can do' (2 Ne. 25:23)” (Robert J. Matthews, A Bible! A Bible!, page 186.)

“To explain how much confidence we should have in God, were I using a term to suit myself, I should say implicit confidence. I have faith in my God, and that faith corresponds with the works I produce. I have no confidence in faith without works. My faith is, when we have done all we can, then the Lord is under obligation, and will not disappoint the faithful; he will perform the rest” (President Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, page 155.)

Now another reason I ask about Grace is this, Mormonism teaches that their is no forgiveness for those who commit murder.




Doctrine and Covenants 42:18 says, "…he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."

In that vein, Joseph Fielding Smith taught, "Murderers Denied Vicarious Ordinances…we do not have the privilege of performing the ordinances for murderers who shed innocent blood, nor for those who take their own lives…If we find in our record one of this kind, we should pass him by and not attempt to do the work for him…" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:192)


I feel sorry for the Mormons and the bondage they are under. there is really no hopeful outcome for latter-day saints through vicarious temple ordinances.

according to what they teach, there is no hope for the person who commits murder (according to Mormon doctrine, doctrines of salvation, miracle of forgiveness and teachings of the prophet). Yet I wonder--have the Mormons ever given any thought to what happened to J Smith? In D and C 135:4 he says his conscience is void of offence towards God and all men, and he says "I shall die innocent." Yet in history of the church 7:102-103 it says J Smith killed 2 people. Please explain how that is dying innocent and with out offence to God or man.

Please also explain where Joseph went if a murderer cannot be forgiven? The Bible teaches us God took Moses home, yet he killed a man in cold blood in exodus. king David had Bathsheba's husband murdered so he could have her, yet God said in acts 13:22 "David is a man after my own heart." 1st John 1:9 says "if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." the "He" is God. Murder falls under both sin and unrighteousness. Titus 1:2 says God cannot lie; therefore there is only bondage according to Mormonism.

1st peter 3:15 tells us to give every man an answer for the hope that lies within us. I ask where or what is that hope within Mormonism if there is no salvation for certain people, no forgiveness for certain sins?

I also see no grace in Mormonism because here is a list of works we must do, If we dont do these we wont attain the highest heaven, so how is that grace?

The Prophet Spencer Kimball Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. He gives a list of 6 things called (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). It says When you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,

1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.

Notice it says "Obedience to the Word of Wisdom." Yet Many LDS members do not follow this. Also we read in Gospel Principles pg 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. We are not repentant if we don't sustain the authorities of the church and don't love the lord and our fellow man. Yet again many LDS do not meet this requirement.

If we do not do these things, we cannot be saved, Grace is free and comes as a result of God loving us, Not because of the works we do. Rick b