I want to cover the subject of the Articles of faith number 8 in 2 parts.
Number 8 says:
" We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."
The first half, I will cover the Bible, the second half will cover the Book of Mormon.
We read in Psalms 138:2 God says he puts his WORD above his name, We know how serious God takes his name, look at the number 1 commandment. But Also John 1 says the Word became flesh. I believe the word is Jesus. if God puts his Word (Jesus) Above even his own name, and the Mormons feel according to A of F 8 the bible is corrput, then that tells me they are saying Jesus is corrput.
Now I know that some LDS claim it is minor little things, like one angle verses two for example. Some might feel that way, but not all LDS feel that way. Joseph smith taught many truths and plain and presious parts were taken from the Bible. Jesus Said in the Book of revelation, If you add to or take away from my word you will have your name removed from the book of life and the holy city.
Here is a few verse in the Book Of Mormon that teach this.
1 Ne. 13: 26
26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.
1 Ne. 13: 28
28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.
1 Ne. 13: 29
29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.
If LDS really teach and believe this, then why is it, Not one single LDS prophet has yet to recive a "Word from the Lord" and restore the missing things. I also would like to know, how do they know which things were removed. We Find in our so-called mis-translated bible, 8,362 predictive verses about 737 different matters that pertain to prophecy, both fufilled and yet to come. Can you show me this much detail in the Book of Mormon? No!
Why is it also if the Bible is not correct, the LDS contiune to use it? Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon were COMMANDED by God to retranslate the scriptures. Read D and C 73:4 and 76:15
73:3-4 " 3 Now, verily I say unto you my servants, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, saith the Lord, it is expedient to translate again;
4 And, inasmuch as it is practicable, to preach in the regions round about until conference; and after that it is expedient to continue the work of translation until it be finished."
76:15: " For while we were doing the work of translation, which the Lord had appointed unto us"
The Lord both Commanded them and Appointed unto them this Job. Sadly the Mormons do not use or pass out the JST of the Bible. They will claim they use it in their BoM or Bible footnotes, but only select verses. I went through various LDS books written by the LDS prophets, Books like, Miracle of forgivness, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and others. Everytime I found a bible verse, I looked to see if it was listed in the JST of the bible, Almost every verse was. So they seem to prefere the Mistranslated verses over the corrected ones that God commanded to be fixed. Add to that, the LDS claim parts are missing, but Joseph Smith even went so far as to remove the (Song of solomon) From the JST, claiming it was not inspired.
We Read in 2 Timothy chapter 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Notice it says, It is able to make us wise unto salvation. And ALL scripture is Given by inspiration of God. It appers to me, either these verses are true and correct or they also are in error. If they are true, then we dont need the BoM. If these verses are in error, someone please correct them and show me whats missing?
Tuesday, January 31, 2006
Tuesday, January 24, 2006
Trinity in the Bible
We read in Genesis 1:1 God (Elohim) this is a plural noun speaking of more than one person. Yet (Bara) is the Hebrew verb for Elohim but it is in the singular. We find 3 in one. We again find this in verses 3:22 where God says man has become like one of us. And we find it in 11:7 at the tower of babal, 3 in one. Then we read in the 10 commandments number 3 says You shall have no other gods before me.
We read in Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear 0 Israel the Lord our God is ONE." God, Not 3 separate Gods. Now I know mormons claim we are not worshiping other gods, Just God the Father. But the scriptures clearly teach there are no other Gods period. Read Isaiah 45:6,14,18,21,22 46:5,9 47:8,10 and 48:12 these all teach their are no gods before me and none will be after me, God states I know of NO OTHER Gods. So if the mormon Godhead is true, and God was once a man as mormonism teaches then his Father would be a God, so God would know about him would he not? If Jesus and the Holy spirit are Gods, God the Father would know about them would he not? So if God the Father states their are no Gods before him or after him How can Worthy LDS members become gods, or how could God have a father who is a God, or how could Jesus or the Holy Spirit be Gods and God the Father not know about them? This tells me we can find the 3 in One Godhead (Trinity).
Then we can read many places in the Old Testament Like Joshua 5 for example about the Spirit of the Lord. This angle of the Lord tells Joshua to remove his sandals for he is on Holy Ground, we read God saying the same thing to Moses in the burning bush. Here we find an (Angle) Saying your on Holy Ground and allowing a mere human to worship Him. Every case in the bible where God sent an angle to give a message to someone, and that person tried to worship the angle we find the angle saying get up, get up do not worship me. The one angle that wanted worship was lucifer and look what happened to him.
Now we read in Isaiah chapter 6:3 The angles are flying and saying "Holy Holy Holy", Now are they saying Holy to 3 different Gods Or One God but in the triune form? Now Read Revelation 4:8 again we find the angles Saying "Holy Holy Holy", they are speaking about 1 God. We find the trinity. Read in Genesis 48:15 When Jacob is about to bless Josephs 2 Sons, Jacob mentions God twice then mentions the Angle who redeemed me, How can a plain angle redeem anyone? I see the Trinity here. Not 3 separate Gods.
We read in Exodus, God speaks to Moses in the burning bush, God says "I AM" Read over in John 8:58 Jesus says "I AM", this is the same "I AM", God used in Exodus, Jesus is not saying he is a god, He IS saying He IS GOD. Even the Jews understood this, that is why they tried to stone him. We read in Exodus 17:6 God the Father told Moses to strike the rock and water will come forth, Then over in Numbers 20:8 We read Moses was supposed to SPEAK to the rock and water would come forth, instead he struck the rock again. Then we read in 1Corinthians 10:4 that Rock was Christ. The example God was trying to set up but Moses blew it was, Jesus was that Rock, he was crucified for us, The Rock was struck. From that point on we only need to speak to Christ (The Rock) Not crucify him all over again (Strike him again) Here we see hints of the Trinity.
Know lets look at Verses that say Jesus is God, not a god.
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God."
Romans 9:5 "Of whom are the fathers and from whom according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God, amen." Notice it says Christ is the blessed God.
Titus 2:13 "Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ." Here again we read Jesus is God.
1st John 5:20 "And we know that the son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we me know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in his son Jesus Christ. This is the True God and eternal life."
Acts 5:3-9 Here we see How the Holy Spirit is God, Not a god.
Act 5:3 "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?"
Act 5:4 "While it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."
Act 5:5 "And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things."
Act 5:6 "And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him."
Act 5:7 "And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in."
Act 5:8 "And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much."
Act 5:9 "Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out."
We read here how he lied to God then he lied to the spirit and it made the spirit out to be God.
So here again we find the trinity, God the father is God, we find the scriptures teach Jesus IS GOD, and we find scripture that states the Holy Spirit is God.
We read in Matthew 28:19 Where it says to make disciples of all nations and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit, this is said in the singular not the plural.
We see the trinity in the Death of Christ. Who was responsible for his death?
The father, Jesus says in Psalm 22:15 You, this You is Jesus speaking of the father being responsible for his death. 22: "You have brought me to the dust of death."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that HE (God) Gave his only begotten Son."
Romans 8:32 "He (God the father) who did not spare his own Son."
But we know read Jesus was responsible for his death.
John 10:18 "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down myself."
Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ, It is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me, And the life which I now live in the flesh ; I live by faith in the son of God, who loved me and GAVE HIMSELF for me."
Now we read in Hebrews 9:14"how it was the Spirit of God who was responsible for the death of Christ."
9:14 "How much more shall the Blood of Christ, who through the Eternal spirit offered himself with out spot to God." Here we again find the trinity.
Now lets find the trinity with in the creation. Who created the heavens and the earth?
God the father. Psalms 102:25 "Of old You laid the foundations of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands."
Jesus Created the Heavens and the earth, John 1:10-11
10:"He was in the World, and the World was made through him, and the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own and his own did not receive him."
Colossians 1:16 "For by Him (the Him Is Jesus, read verse 15) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through him and for him."
The Sprit Created.
Genesis 1:2 "The earth was with out form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters."
Job 26:13"By His Spirit He adorned the heavens; His hand pierced the fleeing serpent."
OK, Now lets move on to some verses in the Book of Mormon that show the Trinity.
Under the page that states "an account written by the Hand of Mormon upon plates taken from the plates of Nephi" it says near the bottom of the page in my copy, "And Also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD"
Question, how can Jesus be THE ETERNAL GOD, if He is a separate God?
Now under the testimony of the 3 witnesses, it ends by saying, "And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, WHICH IS ONE GOD. Amen."
Here we read in the oringal 1830 edition, 1st Nephi 11:21 And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father. Not only has this been changed from the oringal, but how can the Lamb of God (Jesus) be the eternal God?
Read 1 Nephi 11:32 1830 edition "And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God (Jesus), that He was taken by the people; yea, the everlasting God, was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record." Again the Son is called the Eternal God. why? also why the change or addition of words?
Here is another very serious change, 1st Nephi 13:40 1830 edition. "And shall make known to all kindred's, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto Him, or they cannot be saved."
Now here in a more recent edition, 1920, 2 Nephi 26:12b says, "Be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God." Yet again Jesus is called the Eternal God.
2 Nephi 31:21b says, "And now, behold, this is the Doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is ONE God, without end. Amen."
Notice they say they are ONE God and it is the doctrine of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
Mosiah 7:26
26 "And a prophet of the Lord have they slain; yea, a chosen man of God, who told them of their wickedness and abominations, and prophesied of many things which are to come, yea, even the coming of Christ."
27 "And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth."
28 "And now, because he said this, they did put him to death; and many more things did they do which brought down the wrath of God upon them. Therefore, who wondereth that they are in bondage, and that they are smitten with sore afflictions?"
In the verses Above we read that they killed people for teaching Jesus IS GOD, Not A God, But God.
Mosiah 15
1 "And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people."
2 "And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son."
3 "The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son."
4 "And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth."
5 "And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffered temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffered himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people."
6 "And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth."
7 "Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father."
8 "And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men."
Again God is Jesus, Jesus is God.
Mosiah 16:15
15 "Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen."
And LDS believe the trinity is a false teaching, your own book teaches it. Not to mention some changes to deny this were made between the 1830 and 1980 edition. Why?
Know we read here in Alma, a Mormon Prophet claiming Jesus is the eternal God and their is only One God, not Two or Three or more.
Alma 11:21-41
21 "And this Zeezrom began to question Amulek, saying: Will ye answer me a few questions which I shall ask you? Now Zeezrom was a man who was expert in the devices of the devil, that he might destroy that which was good; therefore, he said unto Amulek: Will ye answer the questions which I shall put unto you?"
22 "And Amulek said unto him: Yea, if it be according to the Spirit of the Lord, which is in me; for I shall say nothing which is contrary to the Spirit of the Lord. And Zeezrom said unto him: Behold, here are six onties of silver, and all these will I give thee if thou wilt deny the existence of a Supreme Being."
23 "Now Amulek said: O thou child of hell, why tempt ye me? Knowest thou that the righteous yieldeth to no such temptations?"
24"Believest thou that there is no God? I say unto you, Nay, thou knowest that there is a God, but thou lovest that lucre more than him."
25 "And now thou hast lied before God unto me. Thou saidst unto me—Behold these six onties, which are of great worth, I will give unto thee—when thou hadst it in thy heart to retain them from me; and it was only thy desire that I should deny the true and living God, that thou mightest have cause to destroy me. And now behold, for this great evil thou shalt have thy reward."
26 "And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God?"
27 "And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God."
28 "Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?"
29 "And he answered, No."
30 "Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?"
31 "And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me."
32 "And Zeezrom said again: Who is he that shall come? Is it the Son of God?"
33 "And he said unto him, Yea."
34 "And Zeezrom said again: Shall he save his people in their sins? And Amulek answered and said unto him: I say unto you he shall not, for it is impossible for him to deny his word."
35 "Now Zeezrom said unto the people: See that ye remember these things; for he said there is but one God; yet he saith that the Son of God shall come, but he shall not save his people—as though he had authority to command God."
36 "Now Amulek saith again unto him: Behold thou hast lied, for thou sayest that I spake as though I had authority to command God because I said he shall not save his people in their sins."
37 "And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins."
38 "Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?"
39 "And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;"
40 "And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else."
41 "Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be the loosing of the bands of death; for behold, the day cometh that all shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be judged according to their works."
OK, Now I said the LDS Godhead is confusing and not the Trinity. Here are some reasons why this is so. I just gave much LDS scripture on the Trinity. Yet the LDS has made major changes to teach otherwise. Also I gave a discourse in Alma with a Mormon Prophet who is teaching ONE GOD ONLY. I gave much scripture from the Bible, Book of Isaiah Where God said their are no other Gods. Now we read in D and C 1:14 "And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people."
Are you listing to the Lord, The apostles, and the Prophets? I showed you what they said and teach. But lets add some more confusing LDS scripture. Read Pearl of Great Price, book of Moses 1:6b "But their is no God beside me, and all things are present with me." Even the pearl teaches no Gods besides God alone.
But then to add even more confusion we read in the book of Abraham chapter 4,"God says, Him and the other Gods that he sat in counsel with created the earth. So Did God and the prophet Alma lie when they said their are no other Gods? One Last confusing Tidbit. I own the oringal Doctrine and Covenants with the oringal Lectures of Faith included. They teach that the Holy Spirit is the Mind of God, not a God. So even though LDS no longer hold the lectures as Doctrine, It was taught by the (Prophet) Joseph Smith, And he taught the Holy Spirit is the Mind of God. Which is it? Was JS wrong? If so what else could he be wrong about.
We read in Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear 0 Israel the Lord our God is ONE." God, Not 3 separate Gods. Now I know mormons claim we are not worshiping other gods, Just God the Father. But the scriptures clearly teach there are no other Gods period. Read Isaiah 45:6,14,18,21,22 46:5,9 47:8,10 and 48:12 these all teach their are no gods before me and none will be after me, God states I know of NO OTHER Gods. So if the mormon Godhead is true, and God was once a man as mormonism teaches then his Father would be a God, so God would know about him would he not? If Jesus and the Holy spirit are Gods, God the Father would know about them would he not? So if God the Father states their are no Gods before him or after him How can Worthy LDS members become gods, or how could God have a father who is a God, or how could Jesus or the Holy Spirit be Gods and God the Father not know about them? This tells me we can find the 3 in One Godhead (Trinity).
Then we can read many places in the Old Testament Like Joshua 5 for example about the Spirit of the Lord. This angle of the Lord tells Joshua to remove his sandals for he is on Holy Ground, we read God saying the same thing to Moses in the burning bush. Here we find an (Angle) Saying your on Holy Ground and allowing a mere human to worship Him. Every case in the bible where God sent an angle to give a message to someone, and that person tried to worship the angle we find the angle saying get up, get up do not worship me. The one angle that wanted worship was lucifer and look what happened to him.
Now we read in Isaiah chapter 6:3 The angles are flying and saying "Holy Holy Holy", Now are they saying Holy to 3 different Gods Or One God but in the triune form? Now Read Revelation 4:8 again we find the angles Saying "Holy Holy Holy", they are speaking about 1 God. We find the trinity. Read in Genesis 48:15 When Jacob is about to bless Josephs 2 Sons, Jacob mentions God twice then mentions the Angle who redeemed me, How can a plain angle redeem anyone? I see the Trinity here. Not 3 separate Gods.
We read in Exodus, God speaks to Moses in the burning bush, God says "I AM" Read over in John 8:58 Jesus says "I AM", this is the same "I AM", God used in Exodus, Jesus is not saying he is a god, He IS saying He IS GOD. Even the Jews understood this, that is why they tried to stone him. We read in Exodus 17:6 God the Father told Moses to strike the rock and water will come forth, Then over in Numbers 20:8 We read Moses was supposed to SPEAK to the rock and water would come forth, instead he struck the rock again. Then we read in 1Corinthians 10:4 that Rock was Christ. The example God was trying to set up but Moses blew it was, Jesus was that Rock, he was crucified for us, The Rock was struck. From that point on we only need to speak to Christ (The Rock) Not crucify him all over again (Strike him again) Here we see hints of the Trinity.
Know lets look at Verses that say Jesus is God, not a god.
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God."
Romans 9:5 "Of whom are the fathers and from whom according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God, amen." Notice it says Christ is the blessed God.
Titus 2:13 "Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ." Here again we read Jesus is God.
1st John 5:20 "And we know that the son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we me know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in his son Jesus Christ. This is the True God and eternal life."
Acts 5:3-9 Here we see How the Holy Spirit is God, Not a god.
Act 5:3 "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?"
Act 5:4 "While it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."
Act 5:5 "And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things."
Act 5:6 "And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him."
Act 5:7 "And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in."
Act 5:8 "And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much."
Act 5:9 "Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out."
We read here how he lied to God then he lied to the spirit and it made the spirit out to be God.
So here again we find the trinity, God the father is God, we find the scriptures teach Jesus IS GOD, and we find scripture that states the Holy Spirit is God.
We read in Matthew 28:19 Where it says to make disciples of all nations and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit, this is said in the singular not the plural.
We see the trinity in the Death of Christ. Who was responsible for his death?
The father, Jesus says in Psalm 22:15 You, this You is Jesus speaking of the father being responsible for his death. 22: "You have brought me to the dust of death."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that HE (God) Gave his only begotten Son."
Romans 8:32 "He (God the father) who did not spare his own Son."
But we know read Jesus was responsible for his death.
John 10:18 "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down myself."
Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ, It is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me, And the life which I now live in the flesh ; I live by faith in the son of God, who loved me and GAVE HIMSELF for me."
Now we read in Hebrews 9:14"how it was the Spirit of God who was responsible for the death of Christ."
9:14 "How much more shall the Blood of Christ, who through the Eternal spirit offered himself with out spot to God." Here we again find the trinity.
Now lets find the trinity with in the creation. Who created the heavens and the earth?
God the father. Psalms 102:25 "Of old You laid the foundations of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands."
Jesus Created the Heavens and the earth, John 1:10-11
10:"He was in the World, and the World was made through him, and the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own and his own did not receive him."
Colossians 1:16 "For by Him (the Him Is Jesus, read verse 15) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through him and for him."
The Sprit Created.
Genesis 1:2 "The earth was with out form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters."
Job 26:13"By His Spirit He adorned the heavens; His hand pierced the fleeing serpent."
OK, Now lets move on to some verses in the Book of Mormon that show the Trinity.
Under the page that states "an account written by the Hand of Mormon upon plates taken from the plates of Nephi" it says near the bottom of the page in my copy, "And Also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD"
Question, how can Jesus be THE ETERNAL GOD, if He is a separate God?
Now under the testimony of the 3 witnesses, it ends by saying, "And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, WHICH IS ONE GOD. Amen."
Here we read in the oringal 1830 edition, 1st Nephi 11:21 And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father. Not only has this been changed from the oringal, but how can the Lamb of God (Jesus) be the eternal God?
Read 1 Nephi 11:32 1830 edition "And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God (Jesus), that He was taken by the people; yea, the everlasting God, was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record." Again the Son is called the Eternal God. why? also why the change or addition of words?
Here is another very serious change, 1st Nephi 13:40 1830 edition. "And shall make known to all kindred's, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto Him, or they cannot be saved."
Now here in a more recent edition, 1920, 2 Nephi 26:12b says, "Be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God." Yet again Jesus is called the Eternal God.
2 Nephi 31:21b says, "And now, behold, this is the Doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is ONE God, without end. Amen."
Notice they say they are ONE God and it is the doctrine of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
Mosiah 7:26
26 "And a prophet of the Lord have they slain; yea, a chosen man of God, who told them of their wickedness and abominations, and prophesied of many things which are to come, yea, even the coming of Christ."
27 "And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth."
28 "And now, because he said this, they did put him to death; and many more things did they do which brought down the wrath of God upon them. Therefore, who wondereth that they are in bondage, and that they are smitten with sore afflictions?"
In the verses Above we read that they killed people for teaching Jesus IS GOD, Not A God, But God.
Mosiah 15
1 "And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people."
2 "And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son."
3 "The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son."
4 "And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth."
5 "And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffered temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffered himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people."
6 "And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth."
7 "Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father."
8 "And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men."
Again God is Jesus, Jesus is God.
Mosiah 16:15
15 "Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen."
And LDS believe the trinity is a false teaching, your own book teaches it. Not to mention some changes to deny this were made between the 1830 and 1980 edition. Why?
Know we read here in Alma, a Mormon Prophet claiming Jesus is the eternal God and their is only One God, not Two or Three or more.
Alma 11:21-41
21 "And this Zeezrom began to question Amulek, saying: Will ye answer me a few questions which I shall ask you? Now Zeezrom was a man who was expert in the devices of the devil, that he might destroy that which was good; therefore, he said unto Amulek: Will ye answer the questions which I shall put unto you?"
22 "And Amulek said unto him: Yea, if it be according to the Spirit of the Lord, which is in me; for I shall say nothing which is contrary to the Spirit of the Lord. And Zeezrom said unto him: Behold, here are six onties of silver, and all these will I give thee if thou wilt deny the existence of a Supreme Being."
23 "Now Amulek said: O thou child of hell, why tempt ye me? Knowest thou that the righteous yieldeth to no such temptations?"
24"Believest thou that there is no God? I say unto you, Nay, thou knowest that there is a God, but thou lovest that lucre more than him."
25 "And now thou hast lied before God unto me. Thou saidst unto me—Behold these six onties, which are of great worth, I will give unto thee—when thou hadst it in thy heart to retain them from me; and it was only thy desire that I should deny the true and living God, that thou mightest have cause to destroy me. And now behold, for this great evil thou shalt have thy reward."
26 "And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God?"
27 "And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God."
28 "Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?"
29 "And he answered, No."
30 "Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?"
31 "And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me."
32 "And Zeezrom said again: Who is he that shall come? Is it the Son of God?"
33 "And he said unto him, Yea."
34 "And Zeezrom said again: Shall he save his people in their sins? And Amulek answered and said unto him: I say unto you he shall not, for it is impossible for him to deny his word."
35 "Now Zeezrom said unto the people: See that ye remember these things; for he said there is but one God; yet he saith that the Son of God shall come, but he shall not save his people—as though he had authority to command God."
36 "Now Amulek saith again unto him: Behold thou hast lied, for thou sayest that I spake as though I had authority to command God because I said he shall not save his people in their sins."
37 "And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins."
38 "Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?"
39 "And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;"
40 "And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else."
41 "Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be the loosing of the bands of death; for behold, the day cometh that all shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be judged according to their works."
OK, Now I said the LDS Godhead is confusing and not the Trinity. Here are some reasons why this is so. I just gave much LDS scripture on the Trinity. Yet the LDS has made major changes to teach otherwise. Also I gave a discourse in Alma with a Mormon Prophet who is teaching ONE GOD ONLY. I gave much scripture from the Bible, Book of Isaiah Where God said their are no other Gods. Now we read in D and C 1:14 "And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people."
Are you listing to the Lord, The apostles, and the Prophets? I showed you what they said and teach. But lets add some more confusing LDS scripture. Read Pearl of Great Price, book of Moses 1:6b "But their is no God beside me, and all things are present with me." Even the pearl teaches no Gods besides God alone.
But then to add even more confusion we read in the book of Abraham chapter 4,"God says, Him and the other Gods that he sat in counsel with created the earth. So Did God and the prophet Alma lie when they said their are no other Gods? One Last confusing Tidbit. I own the oringal Doctrine and Covenants with the oringal Lectures of Faith included. They teach that the Holy Spirit is the Mind of God, not a God. So even though LDS no longer hold the lectures as Doctrine, It was taught by the (Prophet) Joseph Smith, And he taught the Holy Spirit is the Mind of God. Which is it? Was JS wrong? If so what else could he be wrong about.
Sunday, January 22, 2006
Bruce R. McConkie's "Challange
In the Original 1958 Edition to the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R.McConkie He states In the Preface:
This Work on Mormon Doctrine Is unique--the first book of it's kind ever published.
It is the first major attempt to digest, explain, and analyze all of the important doctrines of the kingdom.
It is the first extensive compendium of the whole gospel--the first attempt to publish an encyclopedic commentary covering the whole field of revealed religion.
True, there are many Bible commentaries, dictionaries, and encyclopedias; but they all abound in apostate, sectarian notions. Also, there are many sound gospel texts on special subjects.
But never before has a comprehensive attempt been made to define and outline, in a brief manner, all of the basic principles of salvation--and to do it from the perspective of all revelation, both ancient and modern.
This work on Mormon Doctrine is designed to help persons seeking salvation to gain that knowledge of God and his laws without which they cannot hope for an inheritance in the celestial city.
Since it is impossible foe a man to be saved in ignorance of God and his laws and since a man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge of Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation, it follows that men are obligated at their peril to learn and apply the true doctrines of the gospel.
this gospel compendium will enable men, more effectively, to "teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom"; to "be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel,in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient" for them "to understand." (D and C 88:77-7
For the work itself, I assume sole and full responsibility. Observant students, however, will note that the four standard works of the Church are the chief sources of authority quoted and that literally tens of thousands of scriptural quotations and citations are woven into the text material.
Where added explanations and interpretations were deemed essential, they have been taken from such recognized doctrinal authorities as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, and Joseph Fielding Smith.
Two persons have been particularly helpful in the actual preparation of the work: 1. Velma Harvey, my very able and competent secretary, who with unbounded devotion and insight has typed manuscripts, checked references, proofread, and worked out many technical details; and 2. Joseph Fielding Smith , Jr., my brother in law, who both set the type and made many valuable suggestions as to content and construction.
Abundant needed and important counsel has also come from Milton R. Hunter, my colleague on the First Council of the Seventy; Marvin Wallin, of Bookcraft; and Thomas S. Moson, of the deseret News Press. Salt Lake City, Utah June 1, 1958 --Bruce R. McConkie.
Keep in mind Bruce stated He looks to people Like Joseph Smith and Bringham Young as recognized doctrinal authorities. So with that in mind, Is a Challenge as it were, Issued By Bruce R.McConkie.
I have read all 4 standard works. I find nothing at all in the Book of Mormon to prove it is inspired by God as LDS claim. Bruce states we can find hundreds of topics, I would like to issue a Challenge to all my Latter-day saint friends to bring forth just 10 topics of your choice, compare them to the Bible and show me how they are a more accurate display of the Gospel. Please keep in mind, I am following Acts 17:11 and 1st peter 3:15. Then after you read Bruce's Challenge, I lovingly added a list of things That LDS feel are core doctrine yet cannot be found in the BoM. This matter has everlasting eternal consequences. sincerely Rick b.
In the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R. McConkie, under the title Book of Mormon.
bruce says the Purpose of the book of mormon is this.
1. To bear record of Christ, certifying in plainness and with clarity of his divine sonship and mission, proving irrefutably that he is the Redeemer and Saviour.
2. To teach the doctrines of the gospel in such a pure and perfect way that the plan of salvation will be clearly revealed; and
3. To stand as a witness to all the world that Joseph Smith was the Lord's anointed through whom the foundation was laid for the great latter-day work of restoration. Almost all of the doctrines of the gospel are taught in the Book of Mormon with much greater clarity and perfection than those same doctrines are revealed in the Bible. Anyone who will place in parallel columns the teachings of these two great books on such subjects as the atonement, plan of salvation, gathering of Israel, baptism, gifts of the spirit, miracles, revelation, faith, Charity, ( or ANY of a HUNDRED OTHER SUBJECTS), will find conclusive proof of the superiority of the Book of Mormon teachings.
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that Elohim (God the Father in Mormonism) was once a mortal man and that he was not always God?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God has a body of flesh and bones?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God is married in heaven?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that men can become Gods?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that temple participation is necessary to become exalted?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach the blood of Christ does not cleanse certain sins?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it say there is more than one God?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it say males must hold either the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthood?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that there are "three degrees of glory"?
Saturday, January 21, 2006
my calling/testominy
My calling to Mormonism
Well here is the story of my calling to Mormonism. I will give a very brief history leading up to the time to better make sense. I was born in Michigan. My dad moved to the state of Maine where I lived for over 10 years then I moved to Chicago where I meet my wife Shelli. She was going to school in river falls Wisconsin, but lived in Minnesota.
I moved to Minnesota with my brother. When I lived in Chicago it was in 92, I just gave my life to Christ. I was not growing nor did I have a church. I moved to Minnesota in early 94. My brother found a church but it was very weak, The pastor was clearly a 9-5 pastor. He mostly taught on money or gave salvation messages to the saved every week to the same body. So I did not grow.
I meet JW'S, Satanist's, and people who are into the health and wealth gospel, I was almost deceived by a Jesus only group. Me and people from my church would go witness out on the streets, we met a couple of guys doing the same thing. Because I was not growing in the Lord I tried the goofy slain in the spirit churches, but I was way too stubborn to allow them to push me down, and If I did not feel the Lord throwing me down I would not drop. But the guys that were Jesus only almost deceived me. I did not know my word and they sounded so sincere and could answer most of my questions. But through people who cared about me, like my wife and others sharing the truth I ended our time together.
But every time I met a person or cult, I had to ask the pastor how to reply. I knew from when I lived in Maine, there was a rock solid pastor who taught the word of God. Well I am guessing it was like 3 years later I felt the Lord calling us Back to Maine. My wife refused, she said, you hate it here in Minnesota and you want to leave. It is not God calling you, it's your flesh.
Well I simply told her, go or stay, I am going where I believe the Lord is calling me and your going to go or stay here. So we had one of those stupid church nights where they were doing the slain in the spirit, Toronto blessing stuff. Sadly our church was moving in that direction. Anyway we had a guest speaker, and Shelli (my wife) went to get prayer. He told her she needs to listen to me and go where I go.
She grew up here and all her family and friends are here. She did one really stupid thing in here life, and was put on probation by the police.
She was told she was not allowed to leave the state for five years with out permission. She said due to this she could not move to Maine, and she had about 6 months left to go. I told her nothing was impossible for God and we are moving.
Here is the best part of all. When I told here were moving and everything that was going on, till the time we went to the department agency we needed to go to, to she about her moving was around 4-5 months. low and behold when we got there they said the government for some reason cleared her and she could move, they did this about 4-5 months ago and never told us. This confirmed to me God spoke to me, she had very mixed emotions. She did not want to leave but knew God spoke. She still tried fighting me.
We moved to Maine, and I lose track of the years. When we moved up there, I learned the gospel under my pastor, and I grew a lot. I confronted some so-called satanists at a Campus Crusade for Christ out reach. It was Halloween and Campus Crusade had some type of meeting on Halloween. Some people confronted the speaker, so I stood up and confronted them.
Later, I met a pastor who was teaching evolution and got in his face, He repented but seemed to fall back into his old ways a few years later. Then I met some JW'S, but did not get very far with them. Up until this time I never meet a Mormon, I have only heard about them. People always said they were a cult. They believed a false Gospel and Jesus. And I was told the Mormons goal in life is to become Gods and have unlimited wives and sex forever. This is all I knew about Mormons.
I did hate Minnesota and never wanted to go back. I even told Shelli, not even God can or will send me back. Well, one day my wife asked me if I wanted to go with her to see a friend of hers. I said sure. When we were there. They decided to go to the store. They said they would be right back. I thought I was all alone in the house. Then there was a knock at the door, I did not answer it because it was not my house. I heard someone come downstairs and answer the door. They said, sorry my mom's not home come back later.
Then the girl came into the room where I was, I asked who it was. She said some Mormon missionaries. I thought I was so smart because of the little I heard about them, and I thought for sure with the bible verses from Revelation 22:18-19, I would share those and convert them. I ran out the door wanting to speak to them, They were barely down the steps and seemed a little worried about me wanting to so gladly speak to them.
I shared those verses with them, but they could handle themselves better that I could. They really twisted the scriptures and I could not answer them as I really knew nothing about them. For some reason I really felt like the Lord called me to start sharing with them. I can only assume after all these years that he called me to them because I also was almost deceived and I have a desire to check all facts not just blindly believe stuff I hear. Now, I don't see this being true with every Mormon. But I still do not know why he called me to Mormonism, and not another group seeing how I had encountered many other cults.
I went back to the church on Sunday and started talking with other believers trying to figure out if this is really my calling or not. Some people in my church sadly told me to stay away from the Mormons, they are a cult going to hell and will not listen. I thought this was stupid. They need Jesus as much as the next person, it does not matter if they are an atheist or cult member, they are going to hell. Others in my church tried to support me and help me out however they could.
So I prayed and said, Lord I cannot rely on people in my church to help me, they are divided on this issue and at the very least some deny the great commission by telling me to ignore the Mormons. I prayed I really need a solid answer from You, and You only.
So one day some friends came to me and said, Rick, here is a computer disk with tons of info on it to help you out in your research. I said, I don't own a computer. they said, take it to the local library and use it their. I told them I knew from being their before that I was not allowed to do that, their were signs posted stating no outside disks were allowed. So they went aside for a few minutes and talked, it was a married couple, they came back and said, well how about we just give you a computer then to help you out. I knew right then and their God spoke to me and confirmed Mormonism was my calling.
Now I will be honest here so people don't think that they need something so extreme as it were from the Lord to know their calling. But The computer was not brand new, it was rather old and I never did use it. I did not know how to use a computer and just set it aside. I did go to the library and found only one book on Mormonism. It was called (Mormonism shadow or reality), very thick and very in depth. I read the entire thing. I found a ministry link in there for a Mormon ministry. So I called the ministry on the phone and talked with them.
The guy was very helpful, he never once Judged me, never questioned my calling or anything, he was very helpful, told me to write or call with questions, so I did. Because I did not search the scriptures, and was almost deceived. I am not going to just blindly believe, so I question and search everything. Yes I was almost deceived. We as people in general never will agree on issues. I might believe something and you disagree, and you might think I am deceived because I don't agree with you. At least I try and research and think for myself.
Anyway, I would write the ministry and would say, I read in the book (Mormonism Shadow or Reality) a certain story or article, and I would like to get photo copies from books that the LDS used. Then I would call Mormons over to my house or I would go look for them out on the streets. Now a lot has happened over the years and I won't remember everything, But I will do by best to say everything I have encountered over the years.
The church I was going to in Maine, I will not name names of the church or anyone, while I had issues with a few people, I feel everyone makes mistakes and needs to grow. I don't want anyone who reads this to judge the church as a whole or certain people if you happen to know them over something that happened years ago. Plus, I really feel the Lord used it to help me grow, even if their actions were not his will.
Anyway, I remember a time when my wife and I were leaving the house, I started to strap my newborn child into the car, Shelli was running a few minutes late and we lived on a busy somewhat major road. Not that it matters, but we lived about 6 houses down from the author, Stephen King. While waiting for Shelli, I saw a van turn down the road and let out 3 guys. I noticed they were Mormon Missionaries. So I told Shelli, I will be right back,( Yah Right). I went to talk to all 3 of them. I know I made some progress because the main guy doing all the talking was visibly shaken. I saw his hand shake like he was going to pass out. He did his best to pretend it never happened.
Well anyway, I met up with some missionaries at another time and planned to meet them at my house. So I asked a friend from church if him and his wife wanted to come over and help me, his wife could pray and me and my friend would talk. They did, so when I heard the knock on the door, to my great surprise the same Mormon I talked to on the street was standing in my door with someone new. So this guy sat across from me, and his partner sat across from my friend. We talked about two hours about sin, salvation, who is Jesus etc. When it was over, the younger Mormon just about jumped over the table to attack my friend. Seriously, we thought he was demon possessed. When he finally cooled down the other missionary again was shaken, and everyone noticed. We all talked about it after they left, and I told them about how I meet him before and what happened. I never saw him again.
The youth group at my church told me how they would go downtown on Friday nights and street witness, they said there were Mormons showing up to the bible study before hand, they would try and also convert people. So I gladly went along, boy what a nightmare. The people from my church would rebuke the Mormons and tell them your not allowed here and you need to leave. I would get really mad and rebuke the believers and ask them what their problem was. They would tell me, well some of the Mormons are hitting on the girls we bring, and others were just trying to distract us from sharing. Or they would say well we brought new baby believers with us and they cannot handle the Mormons.
I would rebuke everyone, I would tell them either leave the new believers at home. Regardless of the Mormons coming, they will just encounter heathens who have no agenda yet confront the new believers in Christ if you try and share with them. Also, I ask the Mormons about hitting on the girls, they denied it, and I could not prove either side was telling the truth. But I would tell the believers, we need to share the gospel with the Mormons just like everyone else, and like it or not, this is a public place being outside and downtown. You simply cannot just say leave. I think I talked with something like 6-7 Mormons all at once downtown. Once, one wanted to take away my book of Mormon from me so I could not use it.
Then the one thing that really boiled my blood was, a girl from the youth group boldly spoke out to the entire group of believers, trying to speak for everyone of us, and said to the Mormons, I feel we are casting our pearls before swine; we are finished talking with you. I then spoke out and said, please speak for yourself and no one else. I do not feel I am casting my pearls before swine. And proceeded to rebuke her. That Sunday at church I went to tell her father what I did. Her father was a deacon at the church and I wanted to set the record straight. He told me when his daughter got home from the Friday night outreach, she told him what I said. He agreed with me and also rebuked her.
Anyway, sadly, I called the Mormons from that night and had to apologize for the actions of my fellow believers for their attitudes. It was awesome. One of the missionaries and I spoke on the phone for about 2 hours. He shared with me and I shared with him. Shelli would look up verses for me while I was on the phone and I could here him talking with what sounded like at least two other Mormons looking up stuff for him. Sadly, I never saw him again either. But that is one thing with the Missionaries, they are only on a missions trip for two years at a time, and might be in an area for as long as 3 months or as short as one day.
There were stupid things along they way I said or did, and when I called the Mormon ministry to share, they would lovingly point out how not to handle things. That was good. After being back in Maine for awhile, Shelli started to enjoy it there and make friends. I, on the other hand, while I loved it, was feeling called back here to Minnesota. That was a struggle for me with all Shelli and I went through. Now I go and uproot us again. Well, we talked and of course she thought I was nuts. But along the way we tried to buy a house and I was applying for a cooks position at a hospital. This would have been a very high paying sweet job. But I believe the Lord had other plans. There were only two people who applied for the job at the hospital, me and my boss, the chef, where I worked.
Of course he got the job because he had a lot more experience that me. Go figure, just us two apply, and I did not even know he applied until he gave his notice. Then he told me there was only us two that applied. Doors were closing, telling me I was going back to Minnesota. Two really nice restaurants I worked at closed for good, housing fell through, the job at the hospital fell through, and I had a sweet part time job as a baker at a Maine college that fell through.
I really started to warm to the idea of going back to Minnesota. So I called the Mormon ministry and told him. The really funny thing is, he told me, right before I was leaving to Minnesota, a Mormon temple will be built and close to home. We left Maine in February of 2000, and we have been here ever since and I know beyond a doubt this is where we are supposed to be. When I arrived here I really still did not know a lot about Mormonism, not as much as I wanted. But I called the ministry and told them I am here. They put me in touch with a friend of theirs who has a ministry to Mormons.
Well once I got here, I just started to witness to Mormons wherever I could. I decided my approach would be to verify everything my self, I started to search used book stores, and went to eBay. I decide if I do not own the actual source I will not bring up a subject to a Mormon.
Sort of like an atheist saying, I heard your church teaches or does... I would talk to Mormons on a rather limited basis because I could not verify much, But in the years I have been here I have bought and read tons of their stuff.
I have had very long talks with Mormons, two of my talks have lasted for upwards of 4 hours. I keep in touch with the 2 ministries and share thoughts and ideas with them as they really have a heart for Mormons and will be very honest with me. Not that my friends wont be, but they don't understand Mormons as well as these people do. Then back in July of 2004 I took a two weeks paid vacation with a friend, and went to Salt Lake City, Utah to witness to Mormons. Most of the time we slept in my car, but the weather was some of the worst and so severe we needed to rent a motel room a few times, plus just needing a shower we had no other choice.
Boy, I just love this ministry, I would not give it up for nothing. I have been long since blacklisted by the Mormons, they avoid my place like the plague. If I want to talk to Mormons I need to have friends set up meetings at their place or I need to find them out in parks or on the street.
Well, I see good things coming in the future, but only God knows for sure. The sad part of it all is, so many believers even in my own church have this attitude like it cannot possibly be my calling. I will share my experiences with people, and I have had people say to my face, O-Boy, here he goes again. I've also had people roll their eyes at me and just walk away while talking. I say, O-well, God is using me and blessing me beyond belief. If people don't want to hear what I say, then so be it, I won't share with them.
Sadly, I know the people who don't care so I don't share with them. This is why it is nice to have friends in Christ who care. I have someone to share the Good news when it comes my way, and it blesses her (my wife). I hope this helps people to better understand why I am sharing with the LDS people. And my goal on this blog is to put out things I see as problems in Mormonism, and talk about these things. I am reviewing Mormonism. Rick Beaudin
Well here is the story of my calling to Mormonism. I will give a very brief history leading up to the time to better make sense. I was born in Michigan. My dad moved to the state of Maine where I lived for over 10 years then I moved to Chicago where I meet my wife Shelli. She was going to school in river falls Wisconsin, but lived in Minnesota.
I moved to Minnesota with my brother. When I lived in Chicago it was in 92, I just gave my life to Christ. I was not growing nor did I have a church. I moved to Minnesota in early 94. My brother found a church but it was very weak, The pastor was clearly a 9-5 pastor. He mostly taught on money or gave salvation messages to the saved every week to the same body. So I did not grow.
I meet JW'S, Satanist's, and people who are into the health and wealth gospel, I was almost deceived by a Jesus only group. Me and people from my church would go witness out on the streets, we met a couple of guys doing the same thing. Because I was not growing in the Lord I tried the goofy slain in the spirit churches, but I was way too stubborn to allow them to push me down, and If I did not feel the Lord throwing me down I would not drop. But the guys that were Jesus only almost deceived me. I did not know my word and they sounded so sincere and could answer most of my questions. But through people who cared about me, like my wife and others sharing the truth I ended our time together.
But every time I met a person or cult, I had to ask the pastor how to reply. I knew from when I lived in Maine, there was a rock solid pastor who taught the word of God. Well I am guessing it was like 3 years later I felt the Lord calling us Back to Maine. My wife refused, she said, you hate it here in Minnesota and you want to leave. It is not God calling you, it's your flesh.
Well I simply told her, go or stay, I am going where I believe the Lord is calling me and your going to go or stay here. So we had one of those stupid church nights where they were doing the slain in the spirit, Toronto blessing stuff. Sadly our church was moving in that direction. Anyway we had a guest speaker, and Shelli (my wife) went to get prayer. He told her she needs to listen to me and go where I go.
She grew up here and all her family and friends are here. She did one really stupid thing in here life, and was put on probation by the police.
She was told she was not allowed to leave the state for five years with out permission. She said due to this she could not move to Maine, and she had about 6 months left to go. I told her nothing was impossible for God and we are moving.
Here is the best part of all. When I told here were moving and everything that was going on, till the time we went to the department agency we needed to go to, to she about her moving was around 4-5 months. low and behold when we got there they said the government for some reason cleared her and she could move, they did this about 4-5 months ago and never told us. This confirmed to me God spoke to me, she had very mixed emotions. She did not want to leave but knew God spoke. She still tried fighting me.
We moved to Maine, and I lose track of the years. When we moved up there, I learned the gospel under my pastor, and I grew a lot. I confronted some so-called satanists at a Campus Crusade for Christ out reach. It was Halloween and Campus Crusade had some type of meeting on Halloween. Some people confronted the speaker, so I stood up and confronted them.
Later, I met a pastor who was teaching evolution and got in his face, He repented but seemed to fall back into his old ways a few years later. Then I met some JW'S, but did not get very far with them. Up until this time I never meet a Mormon, I have only heard about them. People always said they were a cult. They believed a false Gospel and Jesus. And I was told the Mormons goal in life is to become Gods and have unlimited wives and sex forever. This is all I knew about Mormons.
I did hate Minnesota and never wanted to go back. I even told Shelli, not even God can or will send me back. Well, one day my wife asked me if I wanted to go with her to see a friend of hers. I said sure. When we were there. They decided to go to the store. They said they would be right back. I thought I was all alone in the house. Then there was a knock at the door, I did not answer it because it was not my house. I heard someone come downstairs and answer the door. They said, sorry my mom's not home come back later.
Then the girl came into the room where I was, I asked who it was. She said some Mormon missionaries. I thought I was so smart because of the little I heard about them, and I thought for sure with the bible verses from Revelation 22:18-19, I would share those and convert them. I ran out the door wanting to speak to them, They were barely down the steps and seemed a little worried about me wanting to so gladly speak to them.
I shared those verses with them, but they could handle themselves better that I could. They really twisted the scriptures and I could not answer them as I really knew nothing about them. For some reason I really felt like the Lord called me to start sharing with them. I can only assume after all these years that he called me to them because I also was almost deceived and I have a desire to check all facts not just blindly believe stuff I hear. Now, I don't see this being true with every Mormon. But I still do not know why he called me to Mormonism, and not another group seeing how I had encountered many other cults.
I went back to the church on Sunday and started talking with other believers trying to figure out if this is really my calling or not. Some people in my church sadly told me to stay away from the Mormons, they are a cult going to hell and will not listen. I thought this was stupid. They need Jesus as much as the next person, it does not matter if they are an atheist or cult member, they are going to hell. Others in my church tried to support me and help me out however they could.
So I prayed and said, Lord I cannot rely on people in my church to help me, they are divided on this issue and at the very least some deny the great commission by telling me to ignore the Mormons. I prayed I really need a solid answer from You, and You only.
So one day some friends came to me and said, Rick, here is a computer disk with tons of info on it to help you out in your research. I said, I don't own a computer. they said, take it to the local library and use it their. I told them I knew from being their before that I was not allowed to do that, their were signs posted stating no outside disks were allowed. So they went aside for a few minutes and talked, it was a married couple, they came back and said, well how about we just give you a computer then to help you out. I knew right then and their God spoke to me and confirmed Mormonism was my calling.
Now I will be honest here so people don't think that they need something so extreme as it were from the Lord to know their calling. But The computer was not brand new, it was rather old and I never did use it. I did not know how to use a computer and just set it aside. I did go to the library and found only one book on Mormonism. It was called (Mormonism shadow or reality), very thick and very in depth. I read the entire thing. I found a ministry link in there for a Mormon ministry. So I called the ministry on the phone and talked with them.
The guy was very helpful, he never once Judged me, never questioned my calling or anything, he was very helpful, told me to write or call with questions, so I did. Because I did not search the scriptures, and was almost deceived. I am not going to just blindly believe, so I question and search everything. Yes I was almost deceived. We as people in general never will agree on issues. I might believe something and you disagree, and you might think I am deceived because I don't agree with you. At least I try and research and think for myself.
Anyway, I would write the ministry and would say, I read in the book (Mormonism Shadow or Reality) a certain story or article, and I would like to get photo copies from books that the LDS used. Then I would call Mormons over to my house or I would go look for them out on the streets. Now a lot has happened over the years and I won't remember everything, But I will do by best to say everything I have encountered over the years.
The church I was going to in Maine, I will not name names of the church or anyone, while I had issues with a few people, I feel everyone makes mistakes and needs to grow. I don't want anyone who reads this to judge the church as a whole or certain people if you happen to know them over something that happened years ago. Plus, I really feel the Lord used it to help me grow, even if their actions were not his will.
Anyway, I remember a time when my wife and I were leaving the house, I started to strap my newborn child into the car, Shelli was running a few minutes late and we lived on a busy somewhat major road. Not that it matters, but we lived about 6 houses down from the author, Stephen King. While waiting for Shelli, I saw a van turn down the road and let out 3 guys. I noticed they were Mormon Missionaries. So I told Shelli, I will be right back,( Yah Right). I went to talk to all 3 of them. I know I made some progress because the main guy doing all the talking was visibly shaken. I saw his hand shake like he was going to pass out. He did his best to pretend it never happened.
Well anyway, I met up with some missionaries at another time and planned to meet them at my house. So I asked a friend from church if him and his wife wanted to come over and help me, his wife could pray and me and my friend would talk. They did, so when I heard the knock on the door, to my great surprise the same Mormon I talked to on the street was standing in my door with someone new. So this guy sat across from me, and his partner sat across from my friend. We talked about two hours about sin, salvation, who is Jesus etc. When it was over, the younger Mormon just about jumped over the table to attack my friend. Seriously, we thought he was demon possessed. When he finally cooled down the other missionary again was shaken, and everyone noticed. We all talked about it after they left, and I told them about how I meet him before and what happened. I never saw him again.
The youth group at my church told me how they would go downtown on Friday nights and street witness, they said there were Mormons showing up to the bible study before hand, they would try and also convert people. So I gladly went along, boy what a nightmare. The people from my church would rebuke the Mormons and tell them your not allowed here and you need to leave. I would get really mad and rebuke the believers and ask them what their problem was. They would tell me, well some of the Mormons are hitting on the girls we bring, and others were just trying to distract us from sharing. Or they would say well we brought new baby believers with us and they cannot handle the Mormons.
I would rebuke everyone, I would tell them either leave the new believers at home. Regardless of the Mormons coming, they will just encounter heathens who have no agenda yet confront the new believers in Christ if you try and share with them. Also, I ask the Mormons about hitting on the girls, they denied it, and I could not prove either side was telling the truth. But I would tell the believers, we need to share the gospel with the Mormons just like everyone else, and like it or not, this is a public place being outside and downtown. You simply cannot just say leave. I think I talked with something like 6-7 Mormons all at once downtown. Once, one wanted to take away my book of Mormon from me so I could not use it.
Then the one thing that really boiled my blood was, a girl from the youth group boldly spoke out to the entire group of believers, trying to speak for everyone of us, and said to the Mormons, I feel we are casting our pearls before swine; we are finished talking with you. I then spoke out and said, please speak for yourself and no one else. I do not feel I am casting my pearls before swine. And proceeded to rebuke her. That Sunday at church I went to tell her father what I did. Her father was a deacon at the church and I wanted to set the record straight. He told me when his daughter got home from the Friday night outreach, she told him what I said. He agreed with me and also rebuked her.
Anyway, sadly, I called the Mormons from that night and had to apologize for the actions of my fellow believers for their attitudes. It was awesome. One of the missionaries and I spoke on the phone for about 2 hours. He shared with me and I shared with him. Shelli would look up verses for me while I was on the phone and I could here him talking with what sounded like at least two other Mormons looking up stuff for him. Sadly, I never saw him again either. But that is one thing with the Missionaries, they are only on a missions trip for two years at a time, and might be in an area for as long as 3 months or as short as one day.
There were stupid things along they way I said or did, and when I called the Mormon ministry to share, they would lovingly point out how not to handle things. That was good. After being back in Maine for awhile, Shelli started to enjoy it there and make friends. I, on the other hand, while I loved it, was feeling called back here to Minnesota. That was a struggle for me with all Shelli and I went through. Now I go and uproot us again. Well, we talked and of course she thought I was nuts. But along the way we tried to buy a house and I was applying for a cooks position at a hospital. This would have been a very high paying sweet job. But I believe the Lord had other plans. There were only two people who applied for the job at the hospital, me and my boss, the chef, where I worked.
Of course he got the job because he had a lot more experience that me. Go figure, just us two apply, and I did not even know he applied until he gave his notice. Then he told me there was only us two that applied. Doors were closing, telling me I was going back to Minnesota. Two really nice restaurants I worked at closed for good, housing fell through, the job at the hospital fell through, and I had a sweet part time job as a baker at a Maine college that fell through.
I really started to warm to the idea of going back to Minnesota. So I called the Mormon ministry and told him. The really funny thing is, he told me, right before I was leaving to Minnesota, a Mormon temple will be built and close to home. We left Maine in February of 2000, and we have been here ever since and I know beyond a doubt this is where we are supposed to be. When I arrived here I really still did not know a lot about Mormonism, not as much as I wanted. But I called the ministry and told them I am here. They put me in touch with a friend of theirs who has a ministry to Mormons.
Well once I got here, I just started to witness to Mormons wherever I could. I decided my approach would be to verify everything my self, I started to search used book stores, and went to eBay. I decide if I do not own the actual source I will not bring up a subject to a Mormon.
Sort of like an atheist saying, I heard your church teaches or does... I would talk to Mormons on a rather limited basis because I could not verify much, But in the years I have been here I have bought and read tons of their stuff.
I have had very long talks with Mormons, two of my talks have lasted for upwards of 4 hours. I keep in touch with the 2 ministries and share thoughts and ideas with them as they really have a heart for Mormons and will be very honest with me. Not that my friends wont be, but they don't understand Mormons as well as these people do. Then back in July of 2004 I took a two weeks paid vacation with a friend, and went to Salt Lake City, Utah to witness to Mormons. Most of the time we slept in my car, but the weather was some of the worst and so severe we needed to rent a motel room a few times, plus just needing a shower we had no other choice.
Boy, I just love this ministry, I would not give it up for nothing. I have been long since blacklisted by the Mormons, they avoid my place like the plague. If I want to talk to Mormons I need to have friends set up meetings at their place or I need to find them out in parks or on the street.
Well, I see good things coming in the future, but only God knows for sure. The sad part of it all is, so many believers even in my own church have this attitude like it cannot possibly be my calling. I will share my experiences with people, and I have had people say to my face, O-Boy, here he goes again. I've also had people roll their eyes at me and just walk away while talking. I say, O-well, God is using me and blessing me beyond belief. If people don't want to hear what I say, then so be it, I won't share with them.
Sadly, I know the people who don't care so I don't share with them. This is why it is nice to have friends in Christ who care. I have someone to share the Good news when it comes my way, and it blesses her (my wife). I hope this helps people to better understand why I am sharing with the LDS people. And my goal on this blog is to put out things I see as problems in Mormonism, and talk about these things. I am reviewing Mormonism. Rick Beaudin
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