One God or many gods?

My next topic will look at the issue of, is their One God or many Gods.

Mormonism teaches that the GoodHood is made up of 3 seperate gods, not one God in the form of 3 people. Mormonism teaches that God the father was once a man and his father was a god. I will use a little (g) For the word god when it refers to any god other than the true and Living God. If God the father had a father who was a god, and we keep looking back we could find hundreds if not millions of gods.

We read in the king follet discourse given by Joseph Smith that there is millions of gods. We also are told faithful LDS can attain god hood and become gods someday. Lets first look at some verses in scripture.

"I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God....is there a God beside me; yea, there is no God; I know not any." Isa. 44:6&8

"To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?...for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me." Isa. 46:5&9

"I am the Lord; that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another." Isa. 42:8

If Mormonism is true, and their are 3 seperate gods that form the Godhood, then God lied when He says, I know of no other Gods. If God the father has a father and he has a father, and we keep going back, How can He know of no other Gods if his father is a god, If Jesus is a God and the Holy Spirit is a God, then God the father should have said, I know them or of them.

Now the Bible teaches God cannot Lie. If God cannot lie, how can God say, their are no gods formed before or after me. That tells me we cannot become gods. If God the father says, I know of no other gods, then either God lied or God is not very smart. How can God have a father who is a god, yet He claims I Know of no other gods. Did God forget that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are gods according to Mormonism?

Know we read in D and C 121:32

32 According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest.

33 How long can rolling waters remain impure? What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints.

In Verse 32 is states that God is eternal and over all other gods. then in verse 33 it says God is almighty. How can God be Eternal if He was once a man? How can God be before and above all other gods if he has a father who is a god and how could he come before ALL OTHER gods, if he has a father that is a god? How can he be ALMIGHTY, if a god is before him, IE his father?

Now we read in the BoM in Alma 11

26 And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God?
27 And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.
28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
29 And he answered, No.
30 Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?
31 And he said: An aangel hath made them known unto me.

Now if Amulek is supposed to be a true prophet of God and he states their is only one God, how can their be millions also?

Read in the Pearl of Great Price, all throughout Moses, it says, (I GOD created) then over in Moses chapter 1 verse 6 God says, (But their is no God beside me)

But then we read over in Abraham All through out God says (and the gods) created Etc. How can God say in the Bible that their is no other gods, the BoM only teaches one God, then in the pearl of Great Price we find one God only then later many gods. So which is it? Rick b

Works and the Law part 4.

Ok, here we go on part 4.
Let's look at Paul, formerly called Saul. This is what he says about himself.

Phl 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Phl 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Phl 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,

Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith

Paul followed the law to the letter. He even states that he was blameless, yet he admits the law cannot save him.

Let's look at the story of the good Samaritan.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Luke 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Luke 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Luke 10:29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

Luke 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain [man] went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded [him], and departed, leaving [him] half dead.

Luke 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

Luke 10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked [on him], and passed by on the other side.

Luke 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion [on him],

Luke 10:34 And went to [him], and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

Luke 10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave [them] to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

Luke 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

Luke 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

What I see in this story is bondage. The guy that was beaten was a Jewish man. The Priest and the Levite were both Jewish men, but they were following the law. The law stated that they would be unclean if they touched a man or beast that was dead or they thought was dead. So, they choose to follow the law to the letter, yet obeying the law to the letter would not allow for them to save someone and remain clean. It appears the law cannot save us or allow for mercy.


Let's look at some Bible verses and thoughts.

Now what does it profit, my brethren, though a man says he has faith, and doesn't have works? can faith save him (Jam 2:12-14)?

Now, at this point, many people see James and Paul in conflict in teaching. I don't. Paul teaches that salvation is through faith, faith alone. "By grace are you saved through faith; not of yourselves: it is a gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship" (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Then, what does James say? "Can faith save him?" The answer is yes, faith can save him. A true faith. But make sure you have a true faith. For, if you have a true faith, it will be manifested by the works. In other words, to just say you have faith doesn't cut it. Saying it isn't enough.

I've had people come to me and say, "Oh, I have all the faith in the world." Baloney! Nobody has all the faith in the world. And saying it doesn't make it so. If you believe certain things to be so, then your life is going to be lived accordingly. Your life testifies of your faith or your beliefs. To say that you believe in God and that God is supreme and that God is first in your life, then it will follow that there will be certain evidence that will verify that fact what you have declared to be so. By the works that you do, your faith will be proved or proclaimed. To say that you have faith and not have any works that correspond is totally wrong. You've deceived yourself. You aren't really walking in faith. If you are truly walking in faith, your works are going to be manifesting that truth.

So "what does it profit if a man says he has faith, and he doesn't have works? can that kind of faith save him?" No, it can't.

If a brother or sister is naked, or is destitute of daily food, And you say to them, [Oh] Depart in peace, be warmed and filled; but yet you don't give them any clothes or any food; what good are your words (Jam 2:15-16)?

They can't make him warm. They can't fill his stomach.

Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, if you try to stand alone. Yes, a man may say, "You have faith, and I have works": but you show me your faith without your works, I will show you my faith by my works (Jam 2:17-18).

So it isn't just the declaration. It's the declaration that has something behind it. The proof behind it is the works that I do. Now the works don't save me. They only prove that I have saving faith. And if I don't have works that are corresponding to what I am declaring, then I do not have saving faith, just the declaration, the verbal affirmation isn't enough, and it won't do it.

Now, a lot of people made mistakes; going forward and saying the sinner's prayer and then going away and living the same kind of life, doing the same kind of thing. They say, "Oh yeah, I was saved. I went forward and I said the sinner's prayer." No, no, the sinner's prayer isn't going to save you. It is a living faith in Jesus Christ that brings about actual changes in your life and the proof is in the works; the proof of your faith. Your works have to be in accordance, in harmony with what you are declaring to be true.

You believe that there is one God; [Ah] you do well: the devils believe the same thing, and they tremble (Jam 2:19).

"Oh, I believe in God." Big deal. Who doesn't, except some fool? The Bible says the fool is the one that says there is no God. So you say you believe in God, it only proves one thing, you're not a fool. But it doesn't save you. The devils believe in God, they probably believe more firmly in Him than you do. They said to Jesus, "We know who you are, you're the Holy One of God." (Mark 1:24). So you say, "Oh I believe Jesus is the Holy One of God." So what? Have you submitted your life to His Lordship? Are you doing His works? Are you obeying His commands?

You see, not all who say, "Lord, Lord," are going to enter the kingdom of heaven. So you say, "Oh Lord, Oh the Lord, Oh the Lord," yea, yea, but saying it is not going to do it. Jesus said, "not all who say, Lord, Lord, are going to enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of the Father" (Matthew 7:21). James is telling you the very same thing. It isn't saying I have faith, it is demonstrating the faith because the works of my life are in harmony with what I am declaring that I believe.

If I believe that there was a bomb planted in this room, set to detonate in two minutes, and I stand up here and calmly proclaim to you, "You know, there's a huge bomb in this room that is going to detonate in two minutes and blow this whole place to smithereens." Terrible of people to do that, isn't it? Can't imagine the mind of a person that would plant such a bomb. Why would they want to destroy us? You'd say, "Ah, you don't really believe there's a bomb here." Why? Because my works don't correspond with what I'm declaring that I believe. But if I go running out of the door and say, "Get out of there. A bomb's going to blow up in two minutes," then you're more apt to believe that at least I believe what I'm telling you because now my actions are corresponding with what I am declaring that I believe to be so.

The same is true with faith and works. You say, "Well I believe in God and I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and all." Well, do your actions correspond? Do your actions really show that Jesus is the Lord of your life? Is that demonstrated by the works that you do? That's what James is saying. Don't just say it. Don't rest in just words, beautiful words. But, let's see the actions that demonstrate that you truly believe what you're saying.

"Will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead ?" (Jam 2:20)

It isn't really alive. It isn't a living faith. It isn't a saving faith.

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" (Jam 2:21)

You see, his works corresponded with his faith. He believed God. He believed that through Isaac, God was going to raise up a nation because God had promised that. "Through Isaac shall thy seed be called." Now his very offering of Isaac was proof of his strong belief in the word of God. Believing that God would, if necessary, raise Isaac from the dead to keep His promise. And so his faith was in keeping or his works were in keeping with his faith.

"Seest thou how faith wrought with his works," (Jam 2:22)

They were working together. His faith produced the works as faith will also produce the corresponding works in our life.

"and by works was faith made perfect?" (Jam 2:22)

Not a question mark. In the Greek there is no question mark there. It's just the declaration, "by works his faith was made complete." His faith was proved.

And the scripture was fulfilled which said, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (Jam 2:23-24)

The works being the proof of the faith.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (Jam 2:25-26)

When your spirit leaves your body, your body is dead. The body without the spirit, is dead. So faith, if it doesn't have corresponding works, is not a true faith. It's dead. It does nothing for you. It cannot save you. Dead faith can save no one. It's a living faith and a living Lord, and that living faith can be demonstrated by the actions of my life that are in harmony and corresponding with what I declare to be true and what I declare I believe to be true. There has to be the corresponding works for faith to be alive.

Therefore, let us examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith, the true faith that saves. Not just the verbalizing of the Apostle's Creed, I believe, but the actions of my life being in harmony with it.

Father, help us that we might indeed be doers of the word and not hearers only. That we might not just affirm a belief but may we demonstrate that belief by the attitudes and actions of our lives. Lord, help us not to be deceived. In Jesus' name, Amen.

May the Lord bless you and guide you as you go this week. As you face the many temptations, may the Lord give you strength and may you walk and live after the Spirit. And may you respond after the Spirit. In the temptation may you not yield to the flesh and react after the flesh. May your life be pleasing unto God, as our actions come into harmony with our declarations of what we believe. May we show it in the works that we do. In Jesus' name.

All this in the quote was taken from Pastor Chuck Smith. I agree with what he taught on this.


It seems to me that these verses are clear. As an LDS member, how do you view them, in light of the works plus grace issue?

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound

My point on these verses is this: Paul is clearly teaching that we are under the law as long as we live. He uses the example of husband and wife, if one dies we are no longer bound by the marriage so we can remarry. We read in the Bible, Christ is our husband and we are married to him, read verse 4.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband.

Rom 7:3 So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

Here we read that we are free from the law, and that the law is weak and brings death.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Here in verse 3, it talks of tablets of stone. Those are the stone tablets that Moses wrote the Ten Commandments on.

2Cr 3:3 [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

2Cr 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

2Cr 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency [is] of God;

2Cr 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

2Cr 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away.

The law is a school master, and a very hard one at that. Our righteousness is not from the law. We are lead by the Spirit, not the law.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.

Gal 3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

These verses should be rather clear.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

Well, I hope I have given you something to think about. I know a certain Billsjane has given it much thought. He decided he would rather spend eternity apart from Christ, and insult the Holy God by claiming His death on the cross was not good enough to save us. Bills said he would rather work for his salvation. It is a complete insult to a Holy God to say we need to add works to His death for us. When Jesus said, "It is finished," He meant that. Works cannot save us, and neither can keeping the law. Rick b

Works and the Law part 3.

I want to review a few things before we start on part 3. The first two parts covered teachings from the LDS Church and show they believe and teach the law saves and doing good works saves us. An LDS member wrote me and misunderstood something I wrote in the first two parts, So I want to clear it up before we start. They felt that I was, or am, teaching that I deny good works and do not believe in them. Also, I will go into a 4th and final part.

Here is what I believe. I believe the law and all the good works in the world cannot save us.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Notice in these verses, it teaches we are saved by grace alone not works. But, we also read in verse 10 God created us for good works, BUT these good works are HIS good works that HE ordained us to do before we were created.

Now, let's look at what the Bible teaches. Let's go back to the beginning, in the garden with Adam and Eve. When God created Adam and Eve, there was neither laws to follow or good works to keep; the only work was to tend the garden. But tending the garden did not save us. The reason tending the garden does not save us is because God told Adam to tend the garden before the fall. After the fall, God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden.

After Adam and Eve sinned by eating from the tree of life, and they saw they were naked, what did Adam and Eve do? They covered themselves with fig leaves, (works by their own hands). What did God say? This is not good enough, so God killed an animal and covered man and woman.

Then, if we move onto Chapter 15 in the Book of Genesis, we read the story of God making a covenant with Abram. The thing about this covenant is this: it was one- sided. God put Abram into a deep sleep and God walked through the pieces by Himself. This way it is on God only, not Abram or man. This shows us that God knows we will fail. This shows GRACE ALONE.

Now, let's look at the law compared to the fiery serpent. Here is law number 2 from the ten commandments God gave.

Exd 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Num 21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for [there is] no bread, neither [is there any] water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.

Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

Num 21:7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Here are a few things to compare in this story. Many of the Jews died and refused to look upon the fiery serpent to live. The question is why? Here's why. I posted law number two. God gave the law, but God also told Moses to make this fiery serpent. Now, in order to live, the Jews must believe God spoke through Moses and told them to disobey the law. The law cannot save us and never will save us.

The issue with the fiery serpent is also a type of Christ. Jesus was to come and be lifted up upon a cross. All who look and believe will be saved.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Then, there is the passover, yet another type of Christ. We see the cross being made by putting blood on the door and sides. A lamb was slain and only the blood would save you. You could put up the blood upon the door and the posts, but if you left the home where the blood was, you would die. This passover applied to both the Jews and the Egyptians that enslaved the Jews that were with them. God was showing love, mercy, and grace to the people that harmed the Jews. But any Jew who left the protection of the blood covered doors was slain as if he/she were a non-believer.

Then, we read about Abram in the OT. He was a pagan who worshiped false gods and idols. God called him to be the father of a great nation that would bring in the Messiah through birth. When God called Abram to be the father of many nations, this was grace alone. There were no laws (Ten Commandments) and Abram was not doing good works to save himself and his family.

Let's go back to Exodus Chapter 20 for a minute. We read in Exodus 20:24-26:

Exd 20:24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.

Exd 20:25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.

Here God tells Moses to make an altar, but no tools shall ever come upon this altar lest it be polluted. Jesus is our altar, and our works from our hands will pollute that altar.

We read in these verses in John, people are saved by believing in Him (Jesus). They are not saved by keeping the law or doing works. On the other hand, it says, people are condemned for not believing in Him, (Jesus), not that they are condemned for not working or keeping the law.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Jesus Died because He knew we could never keep the entire law.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I asked once before, and I will ask again, can you keep the entire law like the Scribes and Pharisees tried doing? Jesus makes it even harder and more impossible to do by saying:

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Mat 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

Mat 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

Mat 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have [thy] cloke also.

Mat 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

So, are you perfect? Are you keeping the entire law as the Scribes and Pharisees did? If not, why not? Rick b

works and the law, part 2

Well Here we go. Part 2 of the works and law topic.

Bruce McConkie says in the book Mormon Doctrine, under the title of Work pg 847

Work is a blessing that brings salvation, idleness a curse that assures damnation

This is simply not taught in scripture, We are told we are saved by the shed Blood of Christ, not works that we do. If we are to believe that work brings salvation, then what about people who cannot work? What I mean by that is, what about a person who is in jail, or stuck in a wheel chair, paralyzed from the neck down.

Now I scanned and will post entire pages for everyone to read. Not everyone has a copy of Mormon doctrine, My part two will be a few thoughts on what is said by Bruce, and allow the readers to read all this for themselves as it is a lot.

Over all their is a lot I could point out, but will not. If anyone wants to talk about a certain section Bruce brings up and I did not address, please feel free to ask about it or speak on it.

Notice that Under the issue of (Salvation), at the very end, Bruce says,

If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the Restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter-Day-Saints.

Wow! You mean if the LDS Church is real and JS is a true prophet of God, then If it were not for Good ol Joe God would have failed? I read in Scripture, God can do anything, If for some reason Joseph Smith never believed God or was killed while a Child, Jesus could have used another Person.

That to me is not how that statement seems to come across, It's Joseph Smith or nothing.

Then under the heading of, (Salvation by Grace) We read this is a soul destroying doctrine. Not only is that not true, but it shows Mormons do teach salvation by works.












I mentioned part of this in my first part. Devin wanted evidence of these quotes, so I scanned them onto here in the Evidence topic. I am adding this one here (Below at the bottom) and want to point out a few things. One is, the author, Joseph Fielding Smith, was the 10th President and a Prophet of the LDS Church. Notice his book is called (The way to perfection). We cannot perfect ourselves and will never be perfect here on earth in this body. Jesus said, if we break even one law, we are guilty of breaking them all. If we are guilty of breaking them all, then we cannot be perfect, if we could be perfect, then Jesus died in vain for our sins.

Notice J.F.S Teaches, in order to be saved in the higest heaven, we must keep the entire law. I want one Mormon to show me he or she can and does keep the entire law perfectly, or tell me any one who does. If you cannot, how can you be sure your saved? How can you be sure what heaven you will enter? Why would I want to join the LDS church if I know I cannot keep the entire law. This would simply be an exercise in frustration.

Lastly, J.F.S says, who ever keeps the Entire law will be washed clean of his sins. This is not what the Bible teaches, The Bible teaches we are washed in the Blood of the lamb to be clean, not keeping the law. Rick B

works and the law, part 1

I am going to cover the issue of keeping the law and needing works to help in our salvation. I am thinking I will do this in 3 parts. So if your question is not covered in the part I have posted, and you ask, well what about this verse, whatever that verses is, I might tell you that will be adressed in the next part. But others are more than welcome to adresse it right then and their.

Lets start with what the LDS church teaches about these things. Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie, salvation must be understood in light of these two definitions:

1. "Unconditional or general salvation, that which comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected. In this sense salvation is synonymous with immortality; it is the inseparable connection of body and spirit so that the resurrected personage lives forever."
2. "Conditional or individual salvation, that which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience, consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one's mortal probation" (Mormon Doctrine pp. 669-670).

McConkie Also said

"those who gain only this general or unconditional salvation will still be judged according to their works and receive their places in a terrestrial or a telestial kingdom. They will, therefore be damned." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 669).

On pages 211-212 of his book The Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer Kimball the LDS PROPHET chastised members who

"are doing nothing seriously wrong except in their failures to do the right things to earn their salvation".

Bruce McConkie goes on to say again,

"Salvation grows automatically out of the resurrection, and the coming forth in the resurrection constitutes the receipt of whatever degree of salvation has been earned." (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 1:196).

Then in volume three of the same set, he wrote,

"Salvation is free,' but it must also be purchased; and the price is obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (3:461).

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism states that

"for repentance to be complete, one must abandon the sinful behavior...Failure to alter outward actions means that the sinner has not repented, and the weight of the former sin returns" (3:1217).

Spencer Kimball teaches,

"discontinuance of sin must be permanent"

(The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 176).


President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote,

"To enter the celestial and obtain exaltation it is necessary that the whole law be kept...Do you desire to enter the celestial Kingdom and receive eternal life? Then be willing to keep all of the commandments." (The Way to Perfection, pg. 206).

Mormonism teaches that this lifetime is a probation period. Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie stated:

"One of the great purposes of this mortal probation is to test and try men, to see if they will keep the commandments and walk in the light no matter what environmental enticements beckon them away from the straight and narrow path" (Mormon Doctrine, pg.229).

The purpose of this lifetime is for the Mormon to prove himself worthy of exaltation. To fail in that capacity will result in never reaching that celestial goal.

President Joseph Fielding Smith said

if they rebelled and refused to comply with the laws and ordinances which were provided for their salvation, it would deny them the great gift and they would be assigned, after the resurrection, to some inferior sphere according to their works. (Doctrines of Salvation 1:69)

This agrees with Alma 34:32-33,

"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors... And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed."

It seems clear that while some Mormons feel they can get things right after death, this is not supported by LDS teaching.

Tenth LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith said compliance with the law, not willingness, was necessary to obtain Godhood.

"This mortal probation was to be a brief period, just a short span linking the eternity past with the eternity future. Yet it was to be a period of tremendous importance. It would either give to those who received it the blessing of eternal life, which is the greatest gift of God, and thus qualify them for godhood as sons and daughters of our Eternal Father, or, if they rebelled and refused to comply with the laws and ordinances which were provided for their salvation, it would deny them the great gift and they would be assigned, after the resurrection, to some inferior sphere according to their works. This life is the most vital period in our eternal existence (Doctrines of Salvation 1:69).

The Book of Mormon teaches,

"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors" (Alma 34:32).

Spencer Kimball teaches, a mere willingness to try to overcome sinful tendencies is not enough. He asserted,

"Trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin."

He went on to say, "To 'try' is weak. To 'do the best I can' is not strong. We must always do better than we can" (Miracle, pp.164-165).

It appers as if Grace plus works, after all we can do, is simply impossible, or very close to it, Look at how Tenth Mormon President Joseph Fielding Smith does not offer a lot of hope for many professing Latter-day Saints when he said,

"There will not be such an overwhelming number of the Latter-day Saints who will get there" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:15).

Smith agreed with Apostle Francis M. Lyman's assessment that "if we save one-half of the Latter-day Saints, that is, with an exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God, we will be doing well."

Bruce McConkie said that damnation will affect many types of individuals. On pages 176-177 of his book Mormon Doctrine, he stated that damnation will be experienced by those who are sons of perdition. On page 746 of the same book he describes sons of perdition as Lucifer, the demons (Mormonism teaches that the demons are God's spirit-children who chose to follow Lucifer in the "war in heaven"), and "those who have a perfect knowledge of the divinity of the gospel cause...then link themselves with Lucifer and come out in open rebellion."

Then, McConkie expands the definition of damnation to also include "those who fail to gain an inheritance in the celestial kingdom" as well as those "who fail to gain exaltation in the highest heaven within the celestial world, even though they do gain a celestial mansion in one of the lower heavens of that world" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 176).


Lots of mormons have told me that if they die and only enter the first or second heaven they will have a chance to still move up to the 3rd heaven. Not so according to these guys. 10th President Joseph Fielding Smith said,

"It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory? The answer to this question is, No! The scriptures are clear on this point" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:31).

Doctrine and Covenants 25:15 says

"Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come."

Some Questions to think about?

* Joseph Smith said that a person "would get nearer to God by abiding by [the Book of Mormon's] precepts than by any other book" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 194). Just what are those "precepts" from the Book of Mormon that God wants you to follow that cannot be found in other books like the Bible?

* Alma 11:37 says that "no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven"? Are you clean? How did you get that way? And how long does this cleansing last?

* Alma 11:37 also says that, as a Mormon, you "cannot be saved in your sins." D&C 1:31 adds that God cannot "look upon sin with the least degree of allowance." Do you struggle with sin? If so, can it be assumed that you are not saved?

* As a Mormon I am sure you take repentance very seriously. However, on page 67 of the LDS Church manual Gospel Fundamentals it states, "Our Father in heaven does not sin, and He does not allow people who sin to live with Him. To live with Him we must repent of our sins. To repent means to feel sorry for our sins and stop doing them." Have you stopped sinning? If not, how can you be sure you will live eternally with Heavenly Father? If the above statement is true, doesn't the fact you continually repent, prove you are not truly repentant; after all, people who stop sinning have no need to repent.

* D&C 25:15 says that unless a person keeps the commandments "continually," he cannot go where God is. Do you keep the commandments continually? If not, where do Mormons like you go when they die?

* If you cannot say that you do keep the commandments "continually," then how do you explain 1 Nephi 3:7 where it says, "For I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them"?

* Isaiah 44:6,8 says that there is no God beside the God of the Bible and that this God does not know of any other gods. If this is Jesus (Jehovah) speaking—as attested to by such LDS leaders as Apostle Bruce McConkie (The Promised Messiah, p.312)—does that mean Jesus does not know His own Father? If you were to actually become a god, would God know you?

* In Alma 11:26-29 Amulek tells Zeezrom that there is only one "true and living God." If that is true, which of the three Gods in the Mormon godhead is not true and/or living? God the Father? Jesus? Or the Holy Ghost?

* If we are to believe that the Nephites are truly ancient "Mormons," where in the Book of Mormon does it say they held the Melchizedek priesthood? Where does it say they practiced baptism for the dead? Or believe that men can become Gods? How about God having a body of flesh and bones? What about the existence of a "heavenly mother"? Where does it say that all humans existed prior to this earthly existence? Or how Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?

* D&C 88:22 says that only those who abide a celestial law can hope to achieve the celestial kingdom. Are you keeping celestial law?

* If the "decrees of God are unalterable" (Alma 41:8), why has your church made so many corrections over the years (i.e. Declarations 1 and 2, changes in the temple endowment ceremony, changes in the birth control doctrine, etc.)?

* Your leaders have taught that salvation comes by faith and works. If this is true, then why did Joseph Smith insert the word "alone" into Romans 3:28 of his Inspired Version (a.k.a. the Joseph Smith Translation) of the Bible? (It reads, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law.")

* Joseph Smith inserted the word not in Romans 4:5 of the Inspired Version so that it reads, "...who justifieth not the ungodly..." Are you "godly"? If so, how did you get that way? If not, doesn't that mean you are not justified before God? Why would God need to justify a godly person anyway?

* President Brigham Young concluded his Adam-God sermon with these words: "Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation" (Journal of Discourses 1:51). Do you believe Adam is God? If not, aren't you treating these "doctrines" lightly or with indifference"? Wasn't Spencer Kimball treating Young's teaching with indifference when he called it a "false doctrine" (Church News 10/9/76)? If Young was correct, will Kimball be damned? If Kimball was correct, doesn't this prove LDS prophets can teach false doctrine?

* Alma 10:3 states that Lehi "was a descendant of Manasseh." If Indians are really descendants of Lehi and his son Laman, why does DNA deny any link between Indians and Lehi's Jewish heritage?

* Joseph Smith said, "We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345). But the Book of Mormon says in Moroni 8:18, "For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity." Did God change? Or was He always God?

* President Brigham Young and other LDS leaders taught that those who were not valiant in the preexistence were marked in mortality with a "flat nose and black skin." (See Journal of Discourses 7:290, The Way to Perfection, p.101, Answers to Gospel Questions 2:175, Mormon Doctrine, p.527.) Since it was this mark that would help distinguish who was not eligible to receive the priesthood, why do some people still bear the mark even though the priesthood ban was lifted in 1978?

* Presidents Brigham Young and Wilford Woodruff both taught that God is progressing in knowledge (Journal of Discourses 11:286, The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p.3). Yet President Joseph Fielding Smith said that "this kind of doctrine is very dangerous" (Doctrines of Salvation 1:8). Which prophet was telling the truth?

* When asked in a Time magazine interview if God the Father was once a man, President Gordon Hinckley said, "I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it..." (8/4/97, p. 56). Was he telling the truth?

* Are you "sufficiently humble" and "stripped of pride"? If not, Alma 5:27,28 says you are not prepared to die. If you think you are, doesn't this prove you're not?

* Apostle Bruce R. McConkie said "a man may be damned for a single sin" (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary 3:257). Can you account for every single sin you have ever committed?

* President Spencer Kimball said that only those who are "living all the commandments" are guaranteed "total forgiveness of sins" and assured of "exaltation" (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.208). Are you living all of the commandments? If not, how can you be sure you are forgiven?

* Spencer Kimball also taught that "each command we obey sends us another rung up the ladder to perfected manhood and toward godhood; and every law disobeyed is a sliding toward the bottom where man merges into the brute world" (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.133). How tall is this proverbial ladder? And which rung are you on?

* President Joseph F. Smith said, "...it is absolutely necessary for every man and woman in the Church of Christ to work righteousness, to observe the laws of God, and keep the commandments that He has given, in order that they may avail themselves of the power of God unto salvation in this life" (General Conference Report, October 1907, p.3) Yet Titus 3:5 states clearly that salvation is not gained by "works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy." How can salvation be wrought by God's mercy if you earned it through good works?

* In Ephesians 2:8,9 the Apostle Paul states, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." When Paul uses the word "saved," is he making a reference to a general resurrection or exaltation?

* The Apostle John stated, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13). If you were to die right now, do you know for certain if you will have eternal life? If not, when will you finally know? Wouldn't you like to have this issue settled before you die? Do you think you ever will if you remain in the Mormon Church?

The section I posted about questions to think about, was taken From the Mormonism researech minstry website. So the question I will ask is, Would you rather try keeping the entire law, or simply allow grace that God gives to save you? Rick b

Word of Wisdom pt3

Let me first post the verses I want to go over.

8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.
10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.
12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.
14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;
15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.
16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—
17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.
18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;
19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;
20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.
21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

Ok, lets start with this.

8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

Ok, I do not smoke, and I believe it is a waste of money, But apart from that, Honestly how many faithful LDS members can say, they use tobacco for bruises or how many LDS know of cattle ranchers who use tobacco on the livestock they own?

10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.
12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

From the time of Adam and Eve in the garden till the time Noah stepped of the Ark, we were only allowed to eat fruit and herbs. After Noah stepped of the Ark, then we were allowed to eat meat. But in verses 12 and 13 it states meat is both to be used sparingly and only in times of winter or famine.

I am guessing that LDS are not going with a complete Vegan diet in the summer. If not then you either are not obeying the WOW or you dont take these verses seriously. Why is that?

Ok, Chuck the LDS member quoted much from the OT in the way of verses that state certain people could not eat Raisins, or grapes because they are fruit from the vine and could be made into wine, and wine is a big no, no, according to the WOW. Then Chuck stated these were laws for all to follow, well here is another problem, read verse16

All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground

In verse 16, we read, we can partake of the fruit of the vine. No where in the entire WOW does it say what the fruit of the vine is, or is not. Grapes grow on vines, once the grapes are removed and dried they form raisins, Well according to the verse Chuck quoted and the things he said, these verse prove and are laws saying we cannot eat from the fruit of the vine, Now the WOW says we can. Strange.

Here in verse 17 we read

17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

Grain can be used for mild drinks. So what are Mild drinks made with Barly or grain? Beer is mild compared to whisky. what about Hot mild drinks, Does this mean that any mild drink must be served cold? If so why not cold coffee or tea?

What about these verses here?

18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;
19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;
20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.
21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

I have posted over 500 replys on the fairLDS board, When over their I talked with many LDS who admited they do not fully follow the WOW to the letter. If your reading this topic, you could post and say you follow the WOW to the letter, I do not know if your lying or not, only you do, But for all the LDS who know in their heart that they do not fully obey the WOW, I would ask this, Has the destorying angel destoryed you?

If not, then is that a lie? Or will God destory you at a latter time? What about the verse in the Bible where Jesus said,

Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:20 These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, [it] cannot defile him;

So according to Jesus, it is not what goes into us (Coffee, tea, wine, meat Etc) that defiles us, but what comes out of us. Rick b

Word of Wisdom pt2

Were Going to Focus on Verses 5-9 in this part of the WOW. First lets review what they say.
5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.
7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

Let me start by saying this, If anyone wants to follow a certain Diet, or eat or drink certain things and not others for any reason, Then good for you. But to say that if we eat certain foods God will not allow us into Heaven is a false teaching.

Lets first read what the Bible teaches on this subject.
In Acts 10 we read about God telling peter to kill and eat.

Act 10:10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
Act 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Act 10:15 And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.
Act 10:16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Another list of verses we read is

Mat 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

Rom 14:21 [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.

1Cr 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

1Cr 9:4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?

1Cr 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

1Ti 3:8 Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Tts 2:3 The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things.

Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Luk 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Mar 2:22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Ok, I gave a list of verses that show God, Jesus and the apostles Drank Wine and do not condemn the drinking of any beverage. For all the people that want to claim the wine Jesus drank was non-alcoholic
then I must ask this, Why was Jesus accused of being a drunk? You cannot be accused of being a drunk if you drink grape juice. And I might add if wine does not contain alcohol why not simply call it grape Juice. Plus the fact Jesus used the example of new wine bursting old wine skins shows that the wine is fermennting, theirfore it does contain Alcohol.

I would ask this also, Why would God or the Bible provide verses that allow people to drink and include wine, and never mention the fact that if you do this you cannot enter the 3rd heaven, But years later God changes his mind and will keep you out of heaven for drinking something?

I would like to point out also and ask a question. How do we go from HOT DRINKS to this means Coffee or Tea, but Not Hot Chocolate, soup broth, warm to hot milk? The WOW does not define Hot Drinks as Coffee or Tea, so how come we cannot drink cold coffeee or cold tea, if the Hot Drinks is not clearly defined as such?

I have heard mormons claims we cannot drink Coffee or tea because of Caffine, So I must ask, if this is the reason, then why is it ok for Mormons to Drink Hot Chocolate or soda that contains Caffine or even eat a chocolate Candy bar or use medicane that contains Caffine? If it is an issue of Caffine, how come we then cannot drink Caffine free Tea? I know a few LDS who Claim Hot Chocolate was not around in JS day, that was why it was not included. But According to History of Hot Chocolate it has been around since the 1500's and was even around in the 1800's. Odds are pretty Good it was around in JS day. History of Hot Chocolate

Her are some ,more problems I have with the Word of Wisdom.

The Prophet Spencer Kimball Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. he gives a list of 6 things called (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). it says When you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,
1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.

Notice it says "Obedience to the Word of Wisdom." Yet Many LDS members do not follow this. Also we read in Gospel Principles pg 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. we are not repentant if we don't sustain the authorities of the church and don't love the lord and our fellow man. Yet again many LDS do not meet this requirement.

Here is an intersting little problem I find. We read in the Teachings of the PJS.

it is shown that, on May 28, 1837, it was"resolved unanimously, that we will not fellowship any ordained member who will not, or does not, observe the Word of Wisdom according to its literal reading." According to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, "In the mid-1830s, many Church members felt that abstinence from alcohol, tobacco, tea, and coffee was a criterion for fellowship. The one possible exception to this otherwise strict interpretation was wine, which some early Church leaders may not have considered 'strong drink.' This early emphasis on abstinence or near abstinence failed to gain Church-wide or official acceptance, although Joseph Smith said no member 'is worthy to hold an office' who has been taught the Word of Wisdom and fails 'to comply with and obey it' (TPJS, p.117, fn.).


LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith said that a member could not hold a church office unless he abided by the Word of Wisdom. Smith writes this in Essentials in Church History: "One question considered was as follows: 'Whether disobedience to the word of wisdom was a transgression sufficient to deprive an official member from holding office in the Church, after having it sufficiently taught him?'' After a free and full discussion Joseph Smith, who presided, gave his decision as follows: 'No official member in this Church is worthy to hold an office after having the word of wisdom properly taught him; and he, the official member, neglecting to comply with or obey it.' This decision was confirmed by unanimous vote." pg 169

So why is it the LDS chuch Teaches no man can hold a postion of Athourity if he drinks, yet BY stated he made a still house to make whisky and sell it for money?



Added to the Fact that BY made and sold whisky, JS was the mayor and as a result was allowed to sell or give spirits of any quantity according to History of the Church Vol 6, And it appers he did just that. So your two Church Prophets sell, make and Drink Yet the rest of LDS will be denied heaven for drinking.


We Read this story in Alma 55:8-19

8 And when it was evening Laman went to the guards who were over the Nephites, and behold, they saw him coming and they hailed him; but he saith unto them: Fear not; behold, I am a Lamanite. Behold, we have escaped from the Nephites, and they sleep; and behold we have taken of their wine and brought with us.
9 Now when the Lamanites heard these words they received him with joy; and they said unto him: Give us of your wine, that we may drink; we are glad that ye have thus taken wine with you for we are weary.
10 But Laman said unto them: Let us keep of our wine till we go against the Nephites to battle. But this saying only made them more desirous to drink of the wine;
11 For, said they: We are weary, therefore let us take of the wine, and by and by we shall receive wine for our rations, which will strengthen us to go against the Nephites.
12 And Laman said unto them: You may do according to your desires.
13 And it came to pass that they did take of the wine freely; and it was pleasant to their taste, therefore they took of it more freely; and it was strong, having been prepared in its astrength.
14 And it came to pass they did drink and were merry, and by and by they were all adrunken.
15 And now when Laman and his men saw that they were all drunken, and were in a adeep sleep, they returned to Moroni and told him all the things that had happened.
16 And now this was according to the design of Moroni. And Moroni had prepared his men with weapons of war; and he went to the city Gid, while the Lamanites were in a deep sleep and drunken, and cast in aweapons of war unto the prisoners, insomuch that they were all armed;
17 Yea, even to their women, and all those of their children, as many as were able to use a weapon of war, when Moroni had armed all those prisoners; and all those things were done in a profound silence.
18 But had they awakened the Lamanites, behold they were drunken and the Nephites could have slain them.
19 But behold, this was not the desire of Moroni; he did not adelight in murder or bloodshed, but he delighted in the saving of his people from destruction; and for this cause he might not bring upon him injustice, he would not fall upon the Lamanites and destroy them in their drunkenness.

My point of this story is this, They used Wine, So Again, why would God allow wine for many years then all of a sudden change it? We even read Noah after the Flood made wine, Granted getting Drunk was a problem, But God never rebuked Noah for drinking.

Lastly, Again on the Issue of Tea and No Salvation,

LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote,

"SALVATION AND A CUP OF TEA. You cannot neglect little things. 'Oh, a cup of tea is such a little thing. It is so little; surely it doesn't amount to much; surely the Lord will forgive me if I drink a cup of tea.' …if you drink coffee or tea, or take tobacco, are you letting a cup of tea or a little tobacco stand inn the road and bar you from the celestial kingdom of God, where you might otherwise have received a fulness of glory?" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:16)

So According to J.F.S Are BY and Mormon Settlers missing out on salvation?
Read this.

Utah County
Thursday, April 6, 2006
Nice cup of 'Mormon tea' eased settlers' ailments
By Rodger L. Hardy
Deseret Morning News
PAYSON — There's plenty of information about the kind of tea early Utah settlers drank.
The tea may have passed through some of the tea sets at the Peteetneet Academy. The most common, "Mormon tea," came from "a branched broomlike shrub growing up to four feet tall, with slender, jointed stems. The leaves are reduced to scales and grow in opposite pairs or whorls of three and are fused for half their length. Male and female flowers are borne on separate plants in conelike structures. They are followed by small brown to black seeds."
Other common names included: "Brigham tea," "cowboy tea," "squaw tea" and "canyon tea."
The plant is in the Gnetaceae Genus Ephedra family. While it is a source of ephedra, it doesn't violate the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' Word of Wisdom. When the whole plant was used, no negative side effects were reported. In recent years, however, extracted ephedra has led to serious health problems.
Ephedra from the plant, which is found in the southwestern United States, isn't as potent as that from China and India. American Indians drank it to help stop bleeding.
The early settlers placed a handful of the stems in boiling water for each cup. After they removed the concoction from heat they would let it steep. Sometimes they sweetened it with sugar or jam.
Other settlers brewed a strong tea from the plant to treat syphilis and other venereal diseases and as a tonic.
Seeds from the plant were ground as bitter meal or used to flavor bread dough.
Known effects include:
• a stimulus to the central nervous system
• increased blood pressure
• increased heart rate
• increased urine to dispose of excess body fluid
• elevated mood
• decreased appetite
• lessened fatigue

It appers More LDS do not Follow the WoW and Jesus never laid this heavy burden upon any man. Rick B

Word of Wisdom pt1

I want to cover the Word of Wisdom (WoW). I was thinking of doing two parts to this, but I decided I will cover it in 3 parts. The first part will cover the issue of how it came to be, and is it a law or commandment we must follow for salvation, or merely keep if we simply want to.

Part two will cover the issue of Coffee, tea, tobacco, hot drinks in general, The 3rd part will cover the rest. I gave this break down so if you have questions in part one, that will cover things in part 2 or 3, then I ask for you to please wait till then. I am thinking this will turn into a long topic, so that was why I decide to go with 3 parts instead.

First, let me put out the Word Of Wisdom for everyone to read. Not everyone has the benefit of owning a copy of D and C. WoW

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833. HC 1: 327–329. As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently he inquired of the Lord concerning it. This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result. The first three verses were originally written as an inspired introduction and description by the Prophet.
1–9, Use of wine, strong drinks, tobacco, and hot drinks proscribed; 10–17, Herbs, fruits, flesh, and grain are ordained for the use of man and of animals; 18–21, Obedience to gospel law, including the Word of Wisdom, brings temporal and spiritual blessings.


1 A Word OF Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—
2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—
3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.
4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—
5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.
7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.
10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.
12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.
14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;
15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.
16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—
17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.
18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;
19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;
20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.
21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

We read this account given by Brigham Young in the JoD.

The first school of the prophets was held in a small room situated over the Prophet Joseph's kitchen.... When they assembled together in this room after breakfast, the first they did was to light their pipes, and, while smoking, talk about the great things of the kingdom, and spit all over the room, and as soon as the pipe was out of their mouths a large chew of tobacco would then be taken. Often when the Prophet entered the room to give the school instructions he would find himself in a cloud of tobacco smoke. This, and the complaints of his wife at having to clean so filthy a floor, made the Prophet think upon the matter, and he inquired of the Lord relating to the conduct of the Elders in using tobacco, and the revelation known as the Word of Wisdom was the result of his inquiry (Journal of Discourses, vol. 12, p.158)

It would apper to me, and this is simply my MERE OPINION. I think instead of JS telling everyone to stop spitting Tobacco on the floor, he claims God spoke to him on this sugject. Even if God really did speak to him about this, it still is strange that we go from a simple non-command to a serious command years later.


Well we read in verse 2: 2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days

It says that this was not a commandment. Yet it turns into one around 18 years or so after it was first reveled. If this really was given by the Lord, why does it not start out as a command, but years later turn into one? Why is it God simply could not start it out as a command? I ask in light of the verse found in Alma 41:8

8 Now, the decrees of God are unalterable; therefore, the way is prepared that whosoever will may walk therein and be saved.

Then as a result of this so called command, People can be kept out of the temple and possibly be denied entrance into the celestial kingdom, if they do not obey the WoW. Because of this, I want to ask, Why was this WoW not given as one of the ten commandments or at least mentioned by Jesus in the Bible or the BoM?

We even read faithful LDS members cannot hold certain offices if the deny or do not obey the WoW.

History of the Church 2:34-35 reported this in February 1834: "The president opened the Council by prayer...The Council then proceeded to try the question, whether disobedience to the Word of Wisdom was a transgression sufficient to deprive an official member from holding office in the Church, after having it sufficiently taught him. Councilors Samuel H. Smith, Luke S. Johnson, John S. Carter, Sylvester Smith, John Johnson and Orson Hyde, were called to speak upon the case then before the Council. After the Councilors had spoken, the President proceeded to give the decision: No official member in this Church is worthy to hold an office, after having the Word of Wisdom properly taught him, and he, the official member, neglecting to comply with or obey it; which decision the Council confirmed by vote."

I find it really sad that even an LDS member feels, us Non-LDS notice the hypocrisy of LDS members not obeying the WoW.

The hypocrisy of the membership was even admitted by LDS Apostle Orson Pratt who once stated, "I do not wonder that the world say that the Latter-day Saints do not believe their own revelations. Why? Because we do not practice them. Journal of Discourses 17:104

Well if the LDS admit they dont keep them and you must in order to enter the temple, then did God really give this WoW? Rick b

Joseph Smith's Bible (part 3)

I am doing a 3rd part and am going to cover some problems I find in the JST of the Bible, then ask some questions.

First problem I find is this, why is it JS simply copied some verses word for word and claimed he correct these verse, when in fact their is not a single change made? below are some examples.

KJV:
Exd 2:11 And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.

JST:
Exd 2:11 And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.

KJV:
Exd 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, [even] to Horeb.

JST:
Exd 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, [even] to Horeb.

KJV:
Lev 7:14 And of it he shall offer one out of the whole oblation [for] an heave offering unto the LORD, [and] it shall be the priest's that sprinkleth the blood of the peace offerings.

JST:
Lev 7:14 And of it he shall offer one out of the whole oblation [for] an heave offering unto the LORD, [and] it shall be the priest's that sprinkleth the blood of the peace offerings.

KJV:
Lev 7:32 And the right shoulder shall ye give unto the priest [for] an heave offering of the sacrifices of your peace offerings.

JST:
Lev 7:32 And the right shoulder shall ye give unto the priest [for] an heave offering of the sacrifices of your peace offerings.

I could go on with a ton more verses, But it even states in the JST on Page 11, Psalms 1-11 and 18-32 are exactly word for word as the KJV? How is this Correct or inspired as JS claims?

Then their are some verses in the JST where their is only one single letter added or on single word changed, and it still works out to saying the same exact thing. Examples are below. the word(s) in the JST that differ from the KJV will be put in ().

KJV:
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

JST:
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down (out of ) heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

KJV:
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred [and] forty [and] four cubits, [according to] the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

JST:
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, (a) hundred [and] forty [and] four cubits, [according to] the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

Notice in the verse 21:17 the word (AN) has the single letter (N) dropped. this really makes no change to the word. anyone simply could argue in favor of either version that the single letter added or removed is nothing more than a typo.

Here is another verse that I simply do not see how it could be "corrected" or "inspired"

KJV:
1Timothy 3:8 Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre.

1Timothy 3:8 Likewise the deacons must [be] grave, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre.

Notice that the only change between the verses are simply the movement of the word (MUST). How is this a correction? The JST is so full of stuff like this it is not even funny.

Then we read in KJV of the Book of Revelation 22:18-19

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Now my point on these verses is this, JS did not touch these verses, so he must have felt they were translated correctly, or God must have felt they were fine. Anyway, If these verses are correct to the point they were not changed in anyway, then this poses a problem, even if LDS feel these verses only apply to the Book of Revelation and no other book, then JS did make changes to the book of Revelation. So why would God put these verses in the Book, only to later have JS turn around and "correct" the Book.

If God is really all knowing, and if He is not the author of confusion, it would stand to reason, He would have foreseen the changes that needed to be made to the book of revelation, so why would God put these two verses in the book in the first place?

Then there are 9 books JS felt were correct and never changed, both in the Old and New testemants.
If we add to that, all the verses that were not changed, all the verses that were altered, but those mean nothing in the sence of, one single letter was added or removed like with the example of (A) verses (AN), then the more serious changes that were made are really so few, it would stand to reason that the majorty of the Bible is accurate. And seeing as how the LDS feel it is not Accurate, who is correct. The Bible or JS?

Here are a few Examples of what I mean by, some books have very few to almost no changes.
The Book of 2 Corinthians is 13 Chapters long, JS only changed 9 chapters. but out of those 9 chapters 6 of those Chapters only have 1-2 verses changed, and 2 more chapters have 3 verses changed.

Then in 1st Thessalonians is 5 Chapters. JS only changed 4 chapters, but 2 chapters only have 1 verse changed, 2 Chapters have 2 verses changed, and 1 Chapter has 3 verses changed.

The one page book of Philemon has only one verse changed. And the same with the book of Jude, only one verse changed. My point on this is simply this, These changes are major enough, that JS altered the Word of God, yet most Changes are minor enough that you really have to ask, how can you say, these are corrections?

Now here are some more questions.

Brigham Young said

In the Bible are the words of life and salvation . We are believers in the Bible...its precepts, doctrine, and prophecy...We take this book, the Bible...for our guide, for our rule of action; we take it as the foundation of our faith.

Discourses of BY, PG 124-125.

I think it is really confusing for BY to say what he did, Knowing that the Bible was "Corrected" by JS from a revelation of God.

Then again, BY on pg 126, goes onto say,

With us the Bible is the first book, then the book of mormon comes next.

Then many years later we read,

The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints accepts the Holy Bible as the foremost of her standerd works, first among the books which have been proclaimed as her written guides in faith and Doctrine. (A of F , Talmage p.236)

Now, According to A of F number 8, the Bible not translated correctly. If this is true, then can you tell me what part is NOT TRANSLATTED Corectly?

How do you come to the conclusion you did, if you even answerd the question?

Can you give me a list of ten inaccurate translations?

Can you list any errors that are now in the Bible? if so, how did you come to that conclusion?

If God really did tell JS to "correct error" in the Bible, why are you still using a corrput version?

According to D and C 124:89

89 If he will do my will let him from henceforth hearken to the counsel of my servant Joseph, and with his interest support the cause of the poor, and publish the new translation of my holy word unto the inhabitants of the earth.

God says, the JST is His Holy Word. so why all the problems that are both found in the JST and the fact that BY and others (talmage), For one, seem to teach the Bible is Superior, why?

Now here are some things that the Bible teaches.

John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

If the Bible, Gods Holy Word, says this stuff about it, and it is incorrect, then first off, how can I trust anyone, if God allows His word to be corrputed? Then if it really is Gods word, and it is useful for correcting Error, and I cannot trust it, then how can I trust JS. If he really heard from God, to correct error, but had much error himself, both in the JST and the BoM, with the 4,000 plus changes, Who can I trust? Rick b