Acts 17:11 Part 1

This Topic of Acts 17:11 is my reply to Wer62 Also known as Ed. This will be two parts, it is his reply in the comment section of the topic, Am I anti-mormon. Over all this is my reply to his long comment. Hence the name Acts 17:11


Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Wer62 broke down something I said in my topic called: "Am I Anti-Mormon?"
This is a response to his reply. I called it, "Acts 17:11", as we need to search the Scriptures.

Wer62 Replies: I have had this same thought when discussing religion and religoius differences with you from a personal stand point. Even the e-mail you mailed me said that “the enemy really hates me”. By nature you are creating enemies in your approach. Throughout this Blog I have seen very little positive information on what you personally believe and what religious denomination you belong.

Rick replies: first, I cannot simply post 100's of topics at once, ranging from things I see as contradictions in the Mormon church to my personal beliefs. I have clearly stated in my topics that my email address is posted for all to see and use. People can write my and ask questions if they don't see something covered. Also, I will post more over time on what I believe. If people missed that part there is simply nothing I can do about that. As to the issue of what religious denomination I belong to, I am simply a follower of Jesus Christ. Show me where there are denominations taught in the Bible? They are made by man because we are sinners and have many disagreements. Sadly, the LDS are the same way. Just look at their own denominations, the LDS, FLDS, RLDS , and others. So don't let them tell you otherwise.

Wer62 replies: The LDS Church does not teach how to respond to people who “challenge” their beliefs. The LDS Church does not teach as a “class” on how to “rip apart” another’s religious beliefs. We as LDS state the positive aspects of our faith system and promote the Lord’s work forward instead of tearing down others faith or belief systems. The approach used by the LDS membership being much different in many aspects to your approach.

Rick replies: Let me say that my church does not teach people how to tear apart others' beliefs either. But the Bible does teach there are false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing. The Bible also states that we are to share the Gospel. If we believe the LDS preach/teach a false gospel, we must tell others and show people what both teach and allow them to look at the evidence and decide for themselves. I really want to address ED here on this.

The LDS Church does not teach how to respond to people who “challenge” their beliefs.

If this is true, how do you explain these books put out by the LDS church or LDS authors. Take Heed That Ye "BE NOT DECEIVED A book that is passed out by Mormon Missionaries on how to reply to us so called "Anti-Mormons." My copy was given to me by Mormon Missionaries.

In the book, What do Mormons Believe?>, the author shares what Mormons believe while addressing minor issues brought up by non-LDS.

In the book, Answering Challenging Mormon Questions, it states right on the cover,

Replies to 130 Queries by Friends and CRITICS of the LDS church

. I think the name says it all.


In Answers to Gospel Questions Volumes 1 and 2, the books address questions asked by people, but also some questions are written in such a way as to reply to or answer the "Anti's." There is a website called, "The Mormon Answer Man." He answers questions from anyone, but he also tries to refute so-called "anti's," so I really don't feel ED is being entirely honest. So maybe the Church does not have a teaching class. I have been told by Mormon Missionaries, they have group meetings about once a month with the local stake missionaries talking about people like me and where we live so as to avoid us. I feel if we really are lost, you do us a disservice by not sharing the truth. You don't allow others to see or hear both sides, therefore, allowing LDS to think for themselves.

Then I went on to say in my eariler reply:

Read your Bibles, people. The prophets of old spoke truth to the people; they did not like it, so they killed the prophets. Does this mean that when a prophet spoke for the Lord, and he clearly spoke the truth, he was only creating enemies and promoted hate? No. But, if you teach people that anyone who thinks for themselves and follows Acts 17:11 is an enemy, then I suppose I must be.

Ed said:

This does not give license to go out with purpose to cause someone to hate you. If you speak truth and it is done “lovingly” then you get the hate response then you are fine. The fact remains based on the evidence in my e-mail box that you like the hatred. It seems to me you are attempting to breed that type of behavior and that is not of the LORD.

3 Nephi 11:29 For verily, verily I say unto you he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirith up the hearts of men to content with anger, one with another.

Let me reply by saying this: I am not trying to get anyone to hate me. I know the devil hates me, he hates the truth and wants to see people killed and destroyed. Read these verses.

1Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

John 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The Devil only wants to destory. About the Issue of the devil, who is the father of contention.
I would dis-agree. First off you quote from only the BoM. for people who believe this book is from the devil, then he really would like you to believe this. How about you provide this kind of Scripture from the Bible? But add to that, the Bible tells us to contend for the Faith.

Acts 19:8
And he went into the synagogues [speaking of Paul here], and spake boldly for the space of three months, DISPUTING and persuading the things concerning the Kingdom of God.

Philippians 1:27-28:
Whatever happens, conduct yourself in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you.

Jude 3:
Dear friends, although I was eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of God into a licence for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Contention is not of the devil. I believe mormonism is of the devil and this is one way the devil uses in order to keep people blinded to the truth. Let's look at some things Jesus did.

He made a whip of cords and struck the backs of people. Would this classify as contention? He told his disciples to buy a sword, even though it was partly to fufill prophecy, swords were also for self- defense.

The Bible tells us God is a God of vengance. Is vengance also a form of contention? God commanded people to kill in the Old Testment. God the Father first declared war upon Lucifer. Another form of contention?

If speaking the truth in love is a form of contention, then what about all the prophets in the OT who spoke the truth yet caused much anger?

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Jesus rebuked His apostles, they understood it was love to correct them.

Pro 12:1 Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof [is] brutish.

I guess as far as contention goes, it depends on how you view it. I share the truth in hopes people avoid going to hell, but they view it as a spirit of contention. Just as Romans tells us, people love a lie.

At the very least, if Mormons feel their belief is correct, and we're wrong for speaking to them because we "cause" contention, then so be it. I would rather speak the truth and hope you avoid hell than to not share, and you find out you were wrong and end up there.

Let me ask you this question: if you feel contention is of the devil, and I am in the wrong for speaking to you guys, why bother coming here to this website, knowing I will tell you you're wrong, and put yourself through this contention?

Now to address this issue: If you speak truth and it is done “lovingly” then you get the hate response then you are fine.

Let's look at some things the apostles and disciples said.

1Cor 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Ed, am I missing something here? These verse are in the Bible spoken by apostles. This does not sound very loving. Saying if you don't love Jesus Christ, may you be damned for all of eternity. Yet this is the truth given here. I don't know Ed, but I have always believed that it is more loving to tell someone the truth, even if it hurts, than to not tell them because they might not like it. I like this saying,

LOVE THAT TOLERATES DECPTION IS NOT LOVE AT ALL.

Ed said:

It doesn’t appear to me or any other LDS that you are offering anything better. You only point out what you perceive as flaws in the LDS belief system. While that is important it is also important to show what you have is better and why, while doing this in a loving non-confrontational way as humanly possible.

I did this on another blog; I offered something better. Here is my reply that I gave to Davinci.

Davinci,
I think you know as well as I do, No matter what I tell you or offer you as you say, your simply gonna believe what you want to believe. Jesus offered Life to all who would follow, He spoke the truth, what did the people do? They picked up stones to stone him. Mormonism teaches grace plus works after all you can do. Read what Your Prophet Spencer Kimball said, in the book Mircale of forgivness. I say, It's a wonder you can be forgiven. No mormon can say with 100 percent assurance I am saved and will enter heaven. You might be the first, but I have never meet one. To many works to follow to be sure your saved. Then add to that, Spencer taught, No death bed repentance no murders can be forgiven. How can you go to death row inmates and preach your gospel, or go to a hospital and talk with people on their death bed. What can you offer them. Or will you talk to them, but forget what your prophet said about these issues?

The bible offers Grace alone, no works, how can you get better than that. That is all We can offer if you choose to use that word. If your not happy with Grace alone, then add your works, but you will be lost according to the bible. Remember, It is not what I can offer you, but what God offers you. And as I said before, It is not Me who saves but God who saves.

Ed, As I told Davinci, I cannot offer anything, Only God can. He offered His son that we might live, And it is by faith through Grace alone, NO WORKS. How can Mormonism trully offer anything better than Grace alone.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Notice we are Created UNTO GOOD works, Not created and SAVED by our works.
Lets add to the works issue, If you really want to do works it is simple, read this verse here.

Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Notice the Religous Leaders asked Jesus, what must WE DO to WORK the WORKS, Plural, of God. Jesus replyed with the WORK, Singular, is to simple believe on whom God sent. That is Jesus. No other works needed or must be done in order to be saved.

Wer62 Replies: Just because you mis-use the JOD and/or mis-interpret scripture does not make it true. It is true by your opinion which is far from true to my opinion. There is a difference. We can go back and forth on this all day long. The bottom line is that you have in previous conversations with me: Mis-intetrepted Scripture, Twisted Doctrine into unrecognizable forms, and quoted the JOD as if it were scripture. The simple truth you fail to recognize in all these cases is that the JOD is not scripture.

Rick replys, Opinions dont really matter. I notice that the LDS use the JOD when it fits their needs, I or another so-called Anti uses it, the LDS cry foul and claim it is not scripture. Here is just one of many examples. The King Follet Discourse is said to be Joseph Smiths Greatest sermon ever given. LDS use it this day as doctrine. Read over the 14 fundamentiles of following the prophet, Ezra Taft Benson, quotes a lot from the JoD to support his views. So dont tell me I cant quote from it but LDS can. You accuse me of misquoting scripture and twisting it, Provide evidence. I can and will do a topic soon on the JoD. I will provide scanned photo Copies of pages from the JoD to prove the prophets said certain things, their will be plenty of added pages for evidence given for anyone to try and refute.





ED said:

IS Brigham Young entittled to his “opinion”? Is there evidence to show that other prophets have mis-interpreted the Lord’s words and prophecies. Yes. Take Jonah for example. He stated the city would be destroyed and it wasn’t. In fact he got mad at God because the city didn’t get destroyed. [Jonah Chapter 4] This is a clear example of a prophet having “knowledge” from God and initerpreting it wrong. Is it possible for Brigham Young to have an opinion that is wrong to actual doctrinal and scriptural reference? Yes. If he is quoted in the JOD as stating something it is NOT scripture nor is it stated that it is? Are there some good things in the JOD, yes, just as there is in the Apocrapha. Athiests use Apocrapha in the same manner you use the JOD to prove Christianity is wrong and untrue. Second point about using the JOD for your “quotes”. It was not published by the LDS Church! In fact it was discontinued because of the errors that were published. So to stated you use LDS sources and quote the JOD is actually a “misrepresentation of the facts” as it was not published by the LDS Church. I have personally brought this to your attention and you continue with the same tact.

Rick replys: First off much of what Brigham yound said, is/was not his mere opinion, he clearly states in the Adam God section, things like My next sermon, and he says, Now let all who may hear these Doctrines. Brigham Young calls them both Sermons and Doctrine. We read in the preface of the JoD vol 8, the JoD deservedly ranks as one of the standerd works of the church, and every right minded saint will certainly welcome with joy every number as it comes forth from the press as an additional reflector of "the light that shines from Zion's hill". So Ed, are you not one of the "right minded saints"? Now ED, To adress the Issue you brought up about the LDS church discontinuing the JOD because of the errors that were published. Have you never read any of this stuff or given it any thought? I own all my own sources.

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism notes that "in all, the collected Journal of Discourses contains 1,438 speeches given by fifty-five people, including Presidents of the Church, members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, members of the seventy, and sixteen other speakers. Brigham Young gave 390; John Taylor, 162; Orson Pratt, 127; Heber C. Kimball, 113; and George Q. Cannon, 111. Twenty-one people gave a single speech, and the rest gave from 2 to 66 speeches" (2:769).

When Watt first produced the Journal, there seemed to be no question that what was recorded was the actual words and beliefs of men chosen by God to lead his latter-day church. In his introduction to the first issue, Watt proclaimed, "It affords me great pleasure in being able to put in your possession the words of the Apostles and Prophets, as they were spoken in assemblies of the Saints in Zion, the value of which cannot be estimated by man, not so much for any great display of worldly learning and eloquence, as for the purity of doctrine, simplicity of style, and extensive amount of theological truth which they develop."

Often overlooked by many of its LDS critics is the fact that most of the volumes of the Journal were edited and published under the direct auspices of men who were either currently serving as a general authority or would later become one. The names are a veritable who's who list of Mormon leaders and include such men as Franklin Richards, Orson Pratt, George Q. Cannon, Amasa Lyman, Daniel H. Wells, Brigham Young, Jr., Joseph F. Smith, and Albert Carrington. It would be difficult to prove that any of its publishers were appointed without the blessing, or at least the knowledge of, the First Presidency. Can we really believe that such men would print something about the church that was not believed at the time?

When Orson Pratt printed things in The Seer that Brigham Young disagreed with, he was soundly rebuked. We do not find this happening with the publishers of the Journal of Discourses. Even if a Mormon could find things that slipped past the publishers unnoticed, it would be just as ludicrous to assume this would invalidate the entire set of the Journal as it is ludicrous for a Mormon to assume that Young's disagreement with Pratt nullified every issue of The Seer.

Every volume of the Journal comes with a publisher's preface, many of which go out of their way to inform the reader that what they are about to read is esteemed as truth. For example, the preface to volume two was written by Franklin D. Richards. He said,

The Second Volume of the Journal of Discourses needs no recommendation to make it interesting to every Saint who loves to drink of the streams that flow from the fountain of Eternal Truth. It is made up of the choicest fruit that can be called from the tree of knowledge, suited to the tastes of all who can appreciate such delicious food."


Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt served as editor and publisher of volume three. In his preface he says this volume contained the "principles of the Gospel of salvation delivered to this generation through the Apostles and Prophets of the Most High, by the power of the Holy Ghost." He went on to say, "These Discourses as they successively reach us from Zion, show to those who have the spirit of discernment that the Lord's power is increasing among His people, and that He is purifying and bringing them nearer to Him by chastisements, while at the same time He is blessing them with a continual development of the pure principles of eternal life, in proportion as they yield obedience to His requirements.

When George Q. Cannon became a Journal publisher, he was a newly appointed apostle. He would later serve as counselor to Presidents Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and Lorenzo Snow. Few would doubt his loyalty to Mormonism or his understanding of LDS belief. In his preface to volume eight he wrote,

The Journal of Discourses ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every right minded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every Number as it comes forth from the press as an additional reflector of 'the light that shines from Zion's hill.


In volume eleven, Mormon Apostle Brigham Young, Jr. said in his preface, The Journal of Discourses is a vehicle for doctrine, counsel, and instruction to all people, but especially to the Saints. It follows, then, then, (sic) that each successive volume is more and more valuable as the Church increases in numbers and importance in the earth, and its doctrines become more abundantly developed and are brought into practical exercise by his peculiar people. No Saint can afford to do without these precious precepts until they are able to exemplify them in their daily lives and conversation.


In volume twelve Albert Carrington made the following remark, Each discourse in this the XIIth volume of the 'Journal' commends itself to thoughtful perusal, being plain, practical, and of much worth to all who desire to keep pace with the progress of truth.

Ed you have even argued that the sermons were inaccurately recorded. However, the Encyclopedia of Mormonism notes that in all, "twelve people reported sermons for the Journal of Discourses." These included David W. Evans, an associate editor of the Deseret News. Evans succeeded Watt as the main reporter for the JD from 1867 to 1876. Another included George F. Gibbs, a man who held the position of secretary to the First Presidency of the Church for 56 years. Even one of Brigham Young's daughters, Julia, is credited with recording one of her father's sermons (2:769, 770).


And page 55 of the LDS Church manual Gospel Principles states that the inspired words of the living prophet are supposed to be accepted as scripture by Latter-day Saints.


If the Journal of Discourses are really not reliable, why did Mormon Apostle John Widtsoe use them as a primary source for his 1925 book entitled Discourses of Brigham Young? In his preface, Widtsoe makes no effort to hide the fact that the Journal played a significant role in his book. In the preface he wrote:

This book was made possible because Brigham Young secured stenographic reports of his addresses. As he traveled among the people, reporters accompanied him. All that he said was recorded. Practically all of these discourses (from December 16, 1851 to August 19, 1877) were published in the Journal of Discourses, which was widely distributed. The public utterances of few great historical figures have been so faithfully and fully preserved. Clearly, this mass of material, covering nearly thirty years of incessant public speaking could not be presented with any hope of serving the general reader, save in the form of selections of essential doctrines" (p. vi).

Lets not forget, they also re-published the Discourses of Brigham young Again sometime in the mid 50's.
If LDS want to say, I lie, or mis-quote their prophets and Presidents, why is it not one LDS has left a reply stating where I did this.

Then Ed said

Wer62 Replies: I have listened to your rants over time. I have seen the errors in your arguments. You may not have misquoted the JOD but you certainly cut sentences short changing the context and twisting quotes as it relates to the entire article to make it sound better to your argument. That is not misquoting, Right? To purposely twist context knowing full well the meaning intended is a lie. The question remains do you know what you are spreading is a lie? No one will ever know that but you and the Lord.

Rick replys, Ed first you said I misquote and Twist scripture, Now you say I may have not? Is it you have no evidence so you retract your statment? Then you say, I cut my quotes short to mis quote people. I say, Read over ALL my blog topics, I provide much more than partial quotes, I give extra just to prove I am not doing what you claim. Add to that, I said I will scan any papers to prove I am not mis quoting. And many LDS have either been at my house and read the actual book, or LDS reading On line have the books and have read them, their fore they know I am not cutting things short. So Sorry Ed, you are incorrect. Rick B

Mormon Shorthand

Hello Every one, Well Someone asked me to do a topic as it were on Mormon lingo shorthand. They keep seeing things like WoW, JoD and such and got confused as to what it ment. I will provide a link as soon as I can to this Topic.

Word of Wisdom---WoW

Book Of Mormon---BoM

Journal of Discourses---JoD

Doctrine and Covenants---D and C

Pearl of Great Price---P of Gr P

Doctrins of Salvation---DS

If I mis any or other come up that I think of or are pointed out I will up date this list.

contradictions and a few problems

Let me post what I see as contradictions among the Mormon scripture and teachings by LDS.

Let's start with God or gods.
Mormon Doctrine Teaches: There is more than one God.
Mormon Doctrine pg 576-577
Teachings pg 370.

Mormon scripture says there is only one God.
Doctrine and Covenants 20:19,28
Alma 11:21-41
2 Nephi 31:21
3 Nephi 31:21
Final line of the testmony of three witness in Book of Mormon.
A of F.1

Bible teaches there is only one God.
Deuteronomy 4:35,39 6:4
Exodus 34:14
Isaiah 42:8 43:10-11 44:6,8 45:14,18,21,22,23 46:5,9 48:11,12
John 10:30
1 John 5:7,
James 2:19


But then Mormon scripture teaches there is more than one God.
Moses chapers 2-4
Only one God versus Abraham chapters 4-5 (the gods)
Moses 1:3 teaches God is without beginning of days so how could he have once been a man.
Moses 1:6 says God knows of no other gods besides Him and that He is all knowing. So if He knows of no other god(s) besides him, how can He say in Abraham, I sat in the councel of the gods. The Bible teaches God cannot lie in:
Hebrews 6:16,
Titus 1:2

Then Mormon scripture teaches God cannot lie in:
Enos 6,
Ether 3:12
D and C 62:6


Mormon Doctrine teaches that God was once a man:
Teachings pg 345-346.

Mormon scripture teaches that God has always been God in:
Mormon 9:9-11,19
Moroni 7:22

The Bible teaches that God was not a man:
Psalm 50:21
Numbers 23:19
Romans 1:22-23

Mormon Doctrine teaches that God is progressive:
Teachings pg, 347-348,373
A of F. PG 430.

Mormon scripture teaches that God is unchanging:
Moroni 8:18
2 Nephi 27:23
D and C 20:12,17.

The Bible teaches God is unchanging:
Isaiah 43:10-11
John 1:1,14
Malachi 3:6
Hebrews 1:12 and 13:8

Mormon Doctrine teaches that God has a body of flesh and bones:
D and C 130:22
A of F. pg 43

Mormon scripture teaches that God is a spirit:
Alma 18:26-28 and 22:9-11.

The Bible teaches that God is a Spirit:
John 4:24
Luke 24:39
Jeremiah 23:24
Psalms 139:7-10

Mormon Doctrine teaches that God cannot create man; his spirit has always existed:
Teachings PG 354
D and C 93:29
Abraham 3:22

Mormon Scripture teaches that God made man after his own image:
Moses 2:26

The Bible teaches that God created man and he became a living soul:
Genesis 2:7
Colossians 1:16-17
John 1:3-4
Romans 11:34-36

The Bible is very clear: God is and always was God; He was never a man. Please explain just what the word eternal means. According to the dictionary, it means eternal or forever. The Bible is clear - God is eternal. Even the 1st A of F teaches that God is eternal.


Mormon Doctrine teaches that Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers.
Gospel Through the Ages, pg. 15.
Mormon Doctrine, pgs. 192,590.

Mormon Scripture teaches that Jesus is God:
Mosiah 7:27
D and C 38:1-3

The Bible teaches that Jesus is God:
Psalms 33:6
John 1:1--14:9
Hebrews 11:3
1 Timothy 3:16
1 John 5:20
Revelation 19:13.
I believe as the Bible teaches, Jesus Christ is God, not a God.

Mormon Doctrine teaches that the president of the LDS Church holds the keys of salvation for all men now living:
Mormon Doctrine, pg. 411
D and C 84:21,35.

Mormon scripture teaches that there is no other name or means whereby salvation can come but by Christ:
MOSIAH 3:17-18
2 NEPHI 31:21.

The Bible teaches that men can call on no name but Jesus to save them:
JOHN 1:12 5:24
ACTS 4:12 16:30-34
ROMANS 1:16-17
2 CORINTHIANS 6:2
HEBREWS 2:1-4
1 TIMOTHY 2:5
TITUS 3:4-7
1 JOHN 5:9-11

Mormon Doctrine teaches that baptism for the dead is necessary for salvation:
Teachings pg 193
A of F. PG 152
D and C 128:15

Mormon scripture teaches that there is no chance for salvation after death:
ALMA 34:33-35

The Bible teaches that there are no second chances for salvation after death:
Psalms 49:7-8
Proverbs 11:7
Ecclesiastes 9:10
Luke 16:26-31
Hebrews 9:27.

Remember, as I pointed out already, Bruce Mc Conkie said that anything less than exaltion is damnation. This goes against the Bible and the verses I gave. I own all sources I quote from. Let me recap my beliefs here. I believe God was always God, and there is and forever will be only one God. I believe in the trinity. I believe salvation comes to all who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. I look forward to your thoughts on what has been written here. Rick B.



"Some quietly listen to those who speak against the Lord's servants, against his annointed, against the plurality of wives, and against almost every principle that God has revealed. Such persons have a half dozen devils with them all the time. YOU MIGHT AS WELL DENY "MORMONISM," AND TURN AWAY FROM IT, AS TO OPPOSE THE PLURALITY OF WIVES. Let the presidency of this church, and the twelve apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose that doctrine, and the whole of them would be damned." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 203)

Let us add to D and C 132, verses 1 and 2; I will start on 3. "Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same. 4. For behold, I reveal unto you a new and everlasting covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory. I would like to point out some things here. First off, in D and C 1:14 it says we must obey the Lord, the apostles, and the prophets or we will be cut off.

Who gave this new and everlasting covenent? The Lord did. Since when does everlasting mean only 60 plus years? The Lord said, "For all who have this law revealed unto them MUST obey it." Well, if you read D and C or just read what I wrote, you fall under all who have it revealed unto them. now you must obey it. Not only are Mormons not following D and C 1:14, but the concept of on-going revelation now shows its flaws. Ezra Taft Benson taught that the prophet does not need to say, "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture. The Lord was clear when he gave us that scripture, but the council backed it up as I stated above.

Then, Ezra Taft Benson also taught that the prophet cannot lead the church astray. so which prophet is leading us astray? The prophets of old followed and taught it, but now it is denied. Hebrews 6:16 say that it is impossible for God to lie, as well as Titus 1:2, Enos 6, Ether 3:12, and D and C 62:6. All of these teach that God cannot lie. So, did God lie? He states that it is a new and everlasting covenent. Again, since when is everlasting only 60 plus years? If God did not lie, then who did? Mormons teach that the plural wife teaching was for a select few men; God said it was for all that it was revealed unto. If you heard it, it was revealed unto you, why are you not obeying it?

Now, let's look to the Book of Mormon. In Jacob 1:15-19 and 2:21-25, it teaches that David and Solomon did evil by having many wives. Then, in Mosiah 11:2, it teaches many wives is a sin. Now, here is a contradiction because in D and C 132:37-39, it says it was not a sin for David, Solomon and others to have many wives. Now, I thought God could not lie? But God's word is both in the B.O.M and D and C, so either man wrote it and messed up or God lied. This is just my thoughts looking at the Mormon scriptures. Rick B.

Am I "Anti-Mormon" ?

I just recently Meet on my blog an LDS member. He Goes by the name DaVinci. He started a blog as a bit of a joke and I am guessing to try and mock me and make fun of me. But he can correct me if I am wrong, He did state on his blog though he started his as a joke to me. Any way he wrote this:

This below was a response to the previous post by Rick b at first it does not look much , but if you think deeper into it , it actually shows or hints at the negative effect the likes of Rick B have , it is impossible to build any positive contacts from such a point that he comes from .
Instead of trying to help by offering something better anti mormons just want to rip apart instead of love they try and create hate see post the enemy REALLY HATES ME , INSTEAD OF FRIENDSHIP THEY CREATE ENEMIES , by mudding the waters with untruths wasn't it Ed Decker who said " anything goes when you are fighting the devil" even truth.

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My reply to this would be, First off, instead of thinking deeply into what I said, just ask me. Also Davinci seems to feel, because I examine his belief and the teachings of the Mormon Church, therefore I am both an "Anti" and I am only being Negative. He implies I cannot offer any sort of friendship only make enemies. He also wants to know why I cannot offer something better, he feels I can only rip apart.

I think the LDS Church has done their members a grave dis-service by teaching the LDS people this kind of garbage. Read your Bibles, People. The Prophets of Old, Spoke truth to the people, they did not like it so they killed the prophets. Does this mean that when a prophet spoke for the Lord, and he clearly spoke the truth, he was only creating Enemies and promoted hate? No. But If you teach people that anyone who thinks for themselves and follows Acts 17:11 is an enemy then I suppose I must be.

Please read the New Testament also, Jesus spoke the truth and sometimes Jesus was very harsh. Look at the whip of cords he made, The religious leaders picked up stones to stone him. Does this mean Jesus Lied? Then DaVinci says

THEY CREATE ENEMIES , by mudding the waters with untruths.

While it is possible, some so called "Anti's" might use untruths, I challenge anyone to read over my blog and show me some untruths. But lets remember also, Just because you disagree with something I said, does not make it an "untruth" or lie. I quote from LDS sources and own every single book I quote from. I back up every thing I say with Chapter and verse or page number and book. So please be very careful about who you claim lies.

If LDS want to say, I lie, or mis-quote their prophets and Presidents, why is it not one LDS has left a reply stating where I did this. I also just love how the LDS say, we don't answer your questions rick, not because we cannot, but because you would not listen. Really? Are you not judging me by saying that? Why would I spend time and money buying your books and reading them, studying your beliefs and writing all these blog topics if I only want to pick a fight? I really do have other things to do with my life, if that simply was the case. I am not in it for the money, I have never written and published a book, I am not using AD Sense on my blog, I don't want to make money sharing the Gospel.

I want to take a look at how LDS seem to feel anyone who trys to examine mormonism is labeled a ANTI-MORMON. I feel that the Logic the LDS use to say people are Anti-mormon should be applied to them as well. I feel many, not all, But many LDS are both ANTI-Christian, as well as Hypocrites. Here is why I say this.

Webster's dictionary defines "ANTI" as one who opposes a group, policy, practice, or proposal.

It seems to me, the LDS are opposing me and what I do.

Now on this issue of me being an Anti-Mormon, Lets look at what the Bible teaches.
We read in James Chapter 5,

Jam 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Acts 18:9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

Acts 18:11 And he continued [there] a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.


Acts 18:19 And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews.

Acts 19:8And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Notice in these verses, Paul went to the people to speak, debate and share. Even God told Paul not to hold his peace. As to the Verse in the book of Jude, I don't believe Mormons are contending for the faith. Their is a few reasons why I say that. One reason is this, As I said before, the LDS claim they can answer my questions, they just don't want to. So I believe, even if you feel I wont listen, and you feel I am spreading Lies, at the very least, why not answer my questions for the benefit of the people that will come here and read what I say. You act as if you don't have time to answer my questions, but you have time to start va blog to poke fun at me, And you do me a grave dis-service by assuming I would not listen and do my own homework. How do you know? Have you even tried? I would say no, you have not tried. But here is another reason I believe the mormons wont, don't, or can't contend for the faith. Lets look at what mormon scripture and Prophets/presidents have said and done.


If Mormons want to say anyone who thinks for themselves, searches the Scriptures and says I see problems is an anti-Mormon, Then it would stand to reason, the Mormons are Anti-Christian. We read in the Book Of Mormon:

1Nephi 14:10 Behold there are save two Churches only; the one is the Church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the Church of the Devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the Church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great Church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

Someone please tell me how that is not Anti-Christian. Now lets look at some things the LDS Prophets/Presidents Of old have said about us Christians. I quote

B Young: "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199). I quote 3rd president John Taylor (Brigham Young quotes Mr Taylor) "Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell, the eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked onto the earth" (J.O.D 6:176). I quote Heber C. Kimball "Christians-those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about-some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth" (J.O.D 5:89).

Now if people are really honest with themselves here, and we reversed this, and had Christians say about the LDS, they are the biggest whoremasters on the earth, their religion was hatched in hell, ETC, They would cry out for our blood. Why is it they can say this about us? I seem to recall, LDS members saying I and other are anti because we examine what their Church teaches. But yet the LDS prophets said this about Me As a believer. How is this OK?

Many LDS have even tried to get around the issue of the 1st Nephi quote, about their is only two churches. The LDS know that when the B.O.M Speaks about the True Church being the Lamb of God, it speaks about their Church. So it would stand to reason, ANY church that is Not LDS related does or could fall under the Church of the Devil.

In the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R. McConkie Page 137-138 Under Church of the devil He says just what I said.

The titles church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify ALL Churchs or organizations of whatever name or nature-whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious-which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God.

Bruce goes on to say, under the same heading and page.

Any church or organization of any kind whatever which satisfies the innate religious longings of man and keeps him from coming to the saving truths of Christ and his gospel is therefore not of God.
Hence we find our Lord saying,

"he that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."(Matthew.12:30)

And hence we find Alma inviting the wicked to repent and join the true Church of Christ and become the sheep of the Good Shepherd.

"And now if ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? he ask's. "Behold, I say unto you, that the devil is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold; and know, who can deny this? Behold, I say unto you, whosoever denieth this is a liar and a child of the devil"(Alma 5:39; Jos. Smith2:19.)

Sometimes I really believe, Mormons either do not know what their scriptures teach, or they really don't care. Read

Jacob 1:19: Says if we do not teach the word of God with all diligence, then the blood of the people will be upon our heads.

This verse states if we do not teach the word of God, the blood of the People will be on our heads. Well If I really believe the Mormons are deceived, and try and tell them, I get labeled as an Anti. Sadly I try and follow these teachings and share with them and I get called names, But where is the Love from them to try and set me straight? I don't see it, because they simply say, You would not listen anyway, But yet did you even try and give me a reply? no. so how can you say I would not listen? Look over my blog under comments given, you find stuff like, your ignorant, or what a waste of time, or on DaVinci's site, someone called me a fool. Where's the love and trying to turn a sinner from the error of their ways? I only see bitterness.Then add to that,

Alma 26:29-30 29: And we have entered into their houses and taught them, and we have taught them in their streets; yea, and we have taught them upon their hills; and we have also entered into their temples and their synagogues and taught them; and we have been cast out, and mocked, and spit upon, and smote upon our cheeks; and we have been stoned, and taken and bound with strong cords, and cast into prison; and through the power and wisdom of God we have been delivered again. 30: And we have suffered all manner of afflictions, and all this, that perhaps we might be the means of saving some soul; and we supposed that our joy would be full if perhaps we could be the means of saving some.

The verses in Alma are clear, Mormons went to people and taught them. And sadly they went with the sincere desire to see lost souls saved, even if they were Beaten, Mocked, Spit upon, ETC. Since when have I personally done these things? I have not. So why wont LDS share with me? How come your not like the Mormon Missionary's in the BoM? Even Paul was beaten over and over. Not LDS of today. What are you afraid of?



What about, Articles of Faith number 11

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

What is really sad here, is, if I witness to Mormons, I get attacked as an Anti Mormon. Yet they, according to their scripture take it to the people and teach them. But according to A of F 11, They say they allow people to worship how, who and where they like, Yet if we use a little logic, we find this is not really true. Here's why? If the LDS come to me and share their gospel with me, even though they might not come out and be so bold as to tell me what I believe is wrong, like I do with them, it stands to reason, If I believe what they teach me or tell me, then I must be wrong, because we cannot both be correct. Either my belief is true or theirs is. We cant both be right, especially if our beliefs are so far apart in Theology.

Here is More LDS scripture they seem to forget about.
In the Pearl of Great Price, under

Joseph Smith 2:18-19, it says, “18:My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right and which I should join.19: I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the personage who addressed me said that ALL THEIR CREEDS WERE AN ABOMINATION IN HIS SIGHT; THAT THOSE PROFESSORS WERE ALL CORRUPT; THAT THEY DRAW NEAR TO ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEARTS ARE FAR FROM ME, THEY TEACH FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN, HAVING A FORM OF GODLINESS, BUT THEY DENY THE POWER THEREOF.”

In verse 17 it is God the Father and the Son speaking about the state of the Christian Church to Joseph Smith. We as believers are not attacking, we are just responding to Joseph Smith’s statement about our church. Now here is something the Prophet/President said, I do this, but also find it rather interesting a Prophet would say this.

Read pg 188 of
Doctrines of Salvation vol 1

Joseph F Smith. "CHURCH STANDS OR FALLS WITH JOSEPH SMITH. MORMONISM, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. Their is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed: his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false".

In the LDS Scripture we read again,

D and C 71:5-11 98:14,23-26 it says meet your enemy in public.
D and C 66:7 68:1,9 go into the church's public or private to discuss this stuff.
D and C 6:9-11 say convince us of our error if we have any.

If I am your enemy which I don't feel I am, but if I am it says meet me in public to talk about this stuff.
And it says to Convince us of our error, if we have any When I try that, All I get is called names or told, I can answer your question, but you don't really want to hear.


Again, why do I get accused of being hateful for doing what the scriptures teach. Now let me add this, would you agree it is good to listen to the mormon prophets? if so, then I am.


Orson Pratt,The Seer pg 15.

"we ask from you the same generosity--protect us in the exercise of our religious rights--CONVINCE US of our errors of doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of god, and we will be ever grateful for the information, and you will ever have the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God redeeming your fellow beings from the darkness which you may see enveloping their minds".

I tried Doing what Orson Pratt said, Boy, that does not work,I am just trying to look at mormonism in a logical way and point out what I believe are problems. I find it interesting that mormons of old were willing to tell others they were wrong or be open to talks. but it does not appear to be that way today.

Mormon President George A Smith said page 216 in volume 14 of the J.O.D.

“If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if it’s preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak.”

I believe this fits the Mormons perfectly, as they really don't want their faith examined. Because if you do, then they call you an Anti-Mormon. Any LDS care to share some thoughts? Rick b

13 Articles of Faith

I am posting the 13 Articles of Faith. I will be talking about some or all of them in depth over time. Not all non-LDS know what they are or how many there are. So here is the list of 13 and what Bruce R. McConkie has said about them. Mormon Doctrine, pg. 53, under Articles of Faith.

Joseph Smith wrote 13 brief statements which have become known as the Articles of Faith, statements which summarize some of the basic doctrines of the LDS church. These Articles of Faith are scripture and are published as part of the Pearl of Great Price.

For brevity, clearness, and forthrightness of doctrinal presentation, they are unexcelled. When compared with the muddled creeds formulated by the supposedly greatest religious thinkers of Christendom-creeds born amid the strife, bitterness, and debates of councils that struggled at length over every word and comma-the Articles of Faith, coming forth as the spontaneous and inspired writings of one man, are a marked evidence of the spirit of revelation that rested upon the Prophet.

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541



1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Joseph Smith.

I personally find humor in the Article number 13. I see mormons coming to my blog, forgetting this article even exists and attacking me, my blog, and not obeying the rules. So much for

honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men

But this is to be expected. I also find it rather funny that Bruce said (and many LDS agree with him),

For brevity, clearness, and forthrightness of doctrinal presentation, they are unexcelled. When compared with the muddled creeds formulated by the supposedly greatest religious thinkers of Christendom-creeds born amid the strife, bitterness, and debates of councils that struggled at length over every word and comma-the Articles of Faith, coming forth as the spontaneous and inspired writings of one man, are a marked evidence of the spirit of revelation that rested upon the Prophet

(Emphasis mine.)

The reason I find this funny, not HA HA funny, but strange funny, is that looking at all the problems in mormonism: LDS believed the scripture when it taught about polygamy being given by God, yet now many LDS now deny this teaching, yet the FLDS and RLDS who follow and believe it are told they're not true LDS. But D and C 132 teaches this is an EVERLASTING covenant by and from the Lord. So what Bruce said applies to them, yet they deny it. Anyway I covered Articles of Faith Number 8 in two parts already. You can read them at Articles of Faith, part 2 and Articles of Faith part 1

Joseph Smith's Vision

I want to discuss a topic found in both the 1920 edition of the triple combination found in the very end of the book, and in the book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. on pages 106-107.

Vision of the Celestial Kingdom.

On the twenty-first day of January, 1836, the First Presidency, and a number of presiding brethren in the Church, assembled in the Kirtland Temple where they engaged in the ordinances of the endowment, as far as it had at the time been revealed. After this was done the Prophet states that "All of the Presidency laid their hands upon me, and pronounced upon my head many prophecies and blessings, many of which I shall not notice at this time." "All of the Presidency" included Oliver Cowdery and Father Joseph Smith as well as the two counselors, Sidney Rigdon and Frederick G. Williams. Following this ordinance the following vision and revelation were givin to the Prophet, making known to him and through him to the Church one of the most important principles pertaining to the salvation of men

.

The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell. I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire; also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son. I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold. I saw Father Adam and Abraham, and my father and my mother, my brother, Alvin, that has long since slept, and maravelled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.
Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying-

REVELATION

.

All who have died without a knowledge of this Gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom, for I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability, are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven. D.H.C. 2:380-381.

Here are a few problems I find with this vision Joseph Smith had. Read over the requirements for salvation given by Bruce R. McConkie found in the book "Mormon Doctrine," under "Salvation." This is also posted on my blog, under Will all be saved,Part 2

The requirements given do not line up with this vision. According to this vision, God states through the Prophet Joseph Smith, Anyone who died without hearing the gospel, if they would have heard the gospel and believed it, would be allowed to enter the Celestial heaven. If this is in fact true, then why even bother doing Baptism for the dead? I figure, if they would have believed, then they will be saved. Also, if this is true, why bother sending out Mormon Missionaries?

We also see Mormon Prophets both contradicting the Lord and confusing the people. If this vision is true, then we read about Prophets leading the LDS people astray. Here are a few examples. In the book, Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Student Manual, we read on page 131, under the title, (1-13) Exaltation Is Based on Celestial Marriage.

If you want salvation in the fullest, that is exaltation in the kingdom of God, so that you may become his sons and daughters, you have got to go into the temple of the Lord and receive these holy ordinances which belong to that house, which cannot be had elsewhere. No man shall receive the fullness of eternity, of exaltation, alone; no woman shall receive that blessing alone; but man and wife, when they receive the sealing power in the temple of the Lord, if they thereafter keep all the commandments, shall pass on to exaltation, and shall continue and become like the Lord. And that is the destiny of men; that is what the Lord desires for his children. (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43-44.)

These things are not only taught by Bruce McConkie and the Student Manuel, but also by the Prophet Joseph F. Smith. We also read in Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Student Manual, pp 30-31, a modern day parable given by the LDS PROPHET, Spencer Kimball. In short it states that if we are not married in the temple, we could be shut out of the 3rd heaven.

The Prophet Spencer Kimball in "Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, pg. 30, makes it very clear that we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. He gives a list of 6 things called, (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). It says that when you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about:

1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. Overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.

Then we read in "Gospel Principles," pg. 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). We are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the Sabbath Day holy or obey the Word of Wisdom. We are not repentant if we do not sustain the authorities of the church nor love the Lord and our fellow man.

Add to that pg. 241 of "Gospel Principles," eternal marriage is ESSENTIAL FOR EXALTATION (emphasis mine). Our exaltation depends on marriage. Then over on pg. 242, it says, "and in order to obtain the highest, a man MUST ENTER INTO THIS ORDER OF THE PRIESTHOOD [MEANING THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT OF MARRIAGE];" "and if he does not, he cannot obtain it" (D and C 131:1-3)

Now with all that said, how is it that Joseph Smith's brother does none of this, yet is saved in the Celestial Kingdom? Notice, Joseph Smith even states he marvelled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom.

We read in the Dictionary at Dictionary.com, the meaning of the word marvel is:

1. One that evokes surprise, admiration, or wonder. See Synonyms at wonder.
2. Strong surprise; astonishment.

v. mar·veled, also mar·velled mar·vel·ing, mar·vel·ling mar·vels, mar·vels
v. intr.
To become filled with wonder or astonishment.

If Joseph was surprised, it tells me that he did not expect to see his brother there. But why does his brother get special treatment? Please explain to me, why would I want to be an LDS member and do all the work required to enter the temple, and be taught the idea that I might not get into the highest heaven? If I read only the book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, believe his vision to be true, and die, I believe I could enter the celestial heaven by default, without any works.

Does anyone care to explain why the LDS church is built on a foundation of sand and confusion? Rick b

Will all be saved, part 2

In part two, we will be looking at what the LDS church teaches about ALL being saved. First, we must define the word salvation, according to how the LDS church defines the word. In the book, Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie, we read under the title, Salvation, page 669-670. There are two forms of salvation.

1st. General Salvation.
In short, it means every one will be raised from the dead.

2nd. Individual.

That which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience, consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one's mortal probation. (D and C 20:29;2 Ne. 9:23-24.) All others are damned, for as Amulek said: "How can ye be saved except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven?" Futher: Christ "shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else. Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be the loosing of the bands of death; for behold, the day cometh that all shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be judged according to their works." (Alma 11:37-41.) Even those in the celestial kingdom, however, who do not go onto exaltation, will have immortality only and not eternal life. Along with those of the telestial and terrestrial worlds they will be "ministering servants, to minster for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory." They will live "separately and singly" in an unmarried state "without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity." (D and C. 132:16-17.)

3. Salvation in its true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the celestial kingdom. With few exceptions this is the salvation of which the scriptures speak. It is the salvation which the saints seek. It is of this which the Lord says, "their is no gift greater than the gift of salvation." (D and C. 6:13.)This full salvation is obtained in and through the continuation of the family unit in eternity, and those who obtain it are gods. (D and C. 131:1-4;132.) Full salvation is attained by virtue of knowledge, truth, righteousness,and all true principles. Many conditions must exist in order to make such salvation available to men. Without the atonement, the gospel, the priesthood, and the sealing power,there would be no salvation. Without continuous revelation, the ministering of angles, the working of miracles, the prevalence of gifts of the spirt, there would be no salvation. If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 2, pp. 1-350.)

Now, according to this view of salvation, I have a few problems. Bruce admits that not all will be saved. He does not say they will go to hell, but that not everyone will be saved. He states that in order to enter the highest heaven, which is truly salvation, you must be married. This is not merely his own opinion, but it is a teaching of the LDS church. Read the book, "Achieving a Celestial Marriage." It also states this idea. So all the LDS who die before being married and sealed in the temple, I guess there goes your salvation! Here is something that really should bother anyone, even a faithful LDS member: Bruce said,

If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation.

If the restoration were really True, then it would be because of the Lord, not Joseph Smith. Lets not place Joseph Smith on any sort of pedistal. He was a mere man like everyone else. The other thing that bothers me is,

There is no salvation outside of the LDS church.

I suppose if this is true, then not ALL will be saved. How could they? Let's look at some verses now.

1 Ne. 6: 4
4 For the fulness of mine intent is that I may persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and be saved.

1 Ne. 13: 37
37 And blessed are they who shall seek to bring forth my Zion at that day, for they shall have the gift and the power of the Holy Ghost; and if they endure unto the end they shall be lifted up at the last day, and shall be saved in the everlasting kingdom of the Lamb.

1 Ne. 13: 40
40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.

1 Ne. 22: 31
31 Wherefore, ye need not suppose that I and my father are the only ones that have testified, and also taught them. Wherefore, if ye shall be obedient to the commandments, and endure to the end, ye shall be saved at the last day. And thus it is. Amen.

2 Ne. 2: 9
9 Wherefore, he is the first fruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.

2 Ne. 6: 12
12 And blessed are the Gentiles, they of whom the prophet has written; for behold, if it so be that they shall repent and fight not against Zion, and do not unite themselves to that great and abominable church, they shall be saved; for the Lord God will fulfill his covenants which he has made unto his children; and for this cause the prophet has written these things.

2 Ne. 9: 23
23 And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.

2 Ne. 10: 24
24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

2 Ne. 25: 13
13 Behold, they will crucify him; and after he is laid in a sepulchre for the space of three days he shall rise from the dead, with healing in his wings; and all those who shall believe on his name shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

2 Ne. 25: 20
20 And now, my brethren, I have spoken plainly that ye cannot err. And as the Lord God liveth that brought Israel up out of the land of Egypt, and gave unto Moses power that he should heal the nations after they had been bitten by the poisonous serpents, if they would cast their eyes unto the serpent which he did raise up before them, and also gave him power that he should smite the rock and the water should come forth; yea, behold I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven save it be this Jesus Christ, of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved.

2 Ne. 31: 15
15 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

2 Ne. 31: 16
16 And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.

2 Ne. 31: 21
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

2 Ne. 33: 12
12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day.

Jacob 6: 4
4 And how merciful is our God unto us, for he remembereth the house of Israel, both roots and branches; and he stretches forth his hands unto them all the day long; and they are a stiff necked and a gainsaying people; but as many as will not harden their hearts shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

Mosiah 4: 8
8 And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you.

Mosiah 12: 33
33 But now Abinadi said unto them: I know if ye keep the commandments of God ye shall be saved.

Mosiah 13: 32
32 And now, did they understand the law? I say unto you, Nay, they did not all understand the law; and this because of the hardness of their hearts; for they understood not that there could not any man be saved except it were through the redemption of God.

Mosiah 16: 13
13 And now, ought ye not to tremble and repent of your sins, and remember that only in and through Christ ye can be saved?

If hell is not real, then when these verses speak about being "saved," I must ask, what are we saved from? Also, reading the verses I posted from the BoM, I must say, they do not fit the context of salvation according to Bruce McConkie. What I mean by not fitting the context is this: these verses say we cannot be saved if we don't repent or believe on Jesus Christ. So how does that fit with being "saved" being nothing more than rising from the dead, or that we must be married to enter the 3rd heaven.

Now here are more verses from the LDS scriptures that mention eternal hell or damnation.

Jacob 7: 18
18 And he spake plainly unto them, that he had been deceived by the power of the devil. And he spake of hell, and of eternity, and of eternal punishment.

Alma 42: 16
16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.


D&C 19: 11
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

D&C 76: 44
44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment

We also read in the Book, "Miracle of Forgivness," that no one on their death bed can repent. How can they be saved if they are not allowed to repent? What about people who commit murder?

Doctrine and Covenants 42:18 says, "…he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."

Joseph Fielding Smith taught, "Murderers Denied Vicarious Ordinances…we do not have the privilege of performing the ordinances for murderers who shed innocent blood, nor for those who take their own lives…If we find in our record one of this kind, we should pass him by and not attempt to do the work for him…" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:192)

If people who commit murder cannot be forgiven, then I guess not all can be saved.

Please read over the verses I gave that speak on hell and eternal damnation, under my topic, How do LDS view these Bible verses?

Will ALL Be Saved? Part 1

My next topic will cover the issue: "Will All be saved?"
I believe many people will be cast into Hell, or the Lake of Fire for all of eternity and separated from Jesus Christ forever. I know that many LDS do not believe this. This topic will not exactly be on the issue of Hell or works, but both will be brought up. The main focus is going to be "Will ALL be saved or Only Some?"

I was having a talk with an LDS member who says,

Rick, what does ALL mean?

We both agree the word ALL means ALL. The problem is, the Bible simply does not teach that ALL will be saved. Like I said to him, "Is it really ALL or some?" What I mean is that not only does the Bible not teach ALL will be saved, but mormon theology teaches many will be lost as well.

Many Mormons object to an eternal hell on the basis that it would seem cruel for God to punish His own children in such a manner. But Mormons seem to either forget or ignore the fact that the Bible teaches we are not all God's Children. We are all God's creation, but not all are God's children. Read,

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on His name.

Let's also remember that Mormonism teaches that Lucifer's demon forces, which are clearly destined for "outer darkness," make up one-third of God's "children" (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 195). While Christianity affirms that many people who were created by God will perish in hell, Mormonism also espouses this idea by admitting that at least one-third of God's children will be in this state. Mormons may criticize the biblical teaching that many will perish in hell, but to do so is really hypocritical when LDS doctrine condemns a minimum of one-third of God's spirit children to outer darkness. This could easily amount to billions of God's so-called "offspring." This should be especially disconcerting to the Mormon since these condemned demons are really his fallen brothers and sisters.

Please go back and read all the verse I posted under the Subject of How do LDS view these Bible Verses? These talk about an eternal hell or people not being saved.
The LDS member I have been talking with said that Lucifer is a son of perdition, and the reason why he is a son of perdition is because he was not born into this earthly world with a body of flesh and bone. So According to Mormon Doctrine, pg. 746, under the title, "Sons of perdition,", this is the case. So my question to him was, "If this makes Lucifer a son of perdition because he never had a body of flesh and bone, how is it, the Holy Spirit goes from having no body in the pre-existence, to being a God within the LDS Godhead?"

I don't know about you guys, but this simply seems really unfair and not very loving. The Holy Spirit attains Godhead simply by passing all this mortal life has to offer, yet it is the goal of Mormons to attain Godhood by living out the laws and entering the temple to attain the Celestial Heaven. Many LDS will not attain Godhood, yet how fair and loving is your god to deny you Godhood because you failed at some point, while the Holy Spirit simply becomes a God with no reason ever given?

Now the question of "Will ALL be saved?" How do LDS handle these verses?

Rev. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Matthew 10:28 says, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Jesus said in Matthew 18:9 that "if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." (Also see Mark 9:43.) In addition, Jesus warned his followers in Luke 12:5 to "fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell."

Matthew 7:22-23: "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.

The Bible is clear. People will be cast into the Lake of Fire that burns for all of eternity. Notice that this passage does not say, only the sons of perdition will be cast into the Lake of Fire. It says, "all whose names were not found in the Book of Life." Add to this that Jesus said to many that did do miracles and MANY GOOD WORKS "I never knew you."

Here are some more hard verses.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of Man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall he sit upon the throne of His glory:

Mat 25:32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave Me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave Me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took Me in:

Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed Me: I was sick, and ye visited Me: I was in prison, and ye came unto Me.

Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer Him, saying, Lord, when saw we Thee an hungred, and fed [Thee]? or thirsty, and gave [Thee] drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we Thee a stranger, and took [Thee] in? or naked, and clothed [Thee]?

Mat 25:39 Or when saw we Thee sick, or in prison, and came unto Thee?

Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these My brethren, ye have done [it] unto Me.

Mat 25:41 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Notice it does not say, God makes two Groups, The Sons of God and the Sons of perdition.

Read,

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Notice it says, these people will not inherit heaven. It does not say they will only inherit the 3rd heaven. If All will receive salvation, then why does the Bible tell us and teach us, God destroyed kingdoms and nations and people? For example, the world wide flood of Noah, Sodom and Gomorrah, the ten plague's in Egypt. Read the Book of Revelation and all the judgments to strike the earth. Almost the entire earth will be destroyed. God says He cuts it short lest ALL flesh will be destroyed.

This seems real unfair and unloving for God to do to His children. Just curious here, but the Bible is also very clear, there are people who place their trust in and follow false prophets and false messiahs.
What happens to these people according to LDS thinking?

Jesus declared in

John 14:6 that He alone was "the way, the truth and the life."

Not just any Christ will do. I will give many quotes from LDS sources to support my view on the topic "Not ALL will be saved" in part two. Rick b

Andrew Price

I am posting this Article on a man named Andrew price. I honestly dont know much about him, What little I do know is this, He harrases Mormons, wont listen to reason and Mormons in general really do not like him or how he acts. The reason I am posting this is because, Mormons really dont like to be treated like this, they dont like people like andrew. Sadly though Mormons sometimes do to us non-LDS as this guy does to LDS. My example is (BILLS) The LDS who left two comments under my Topic of two questions. His replys are posted below the article on Andrew, I will add a little more, and you can see both sides and decide for yourself.

Mormons ask court to silence preacher who believes their church is a cult
The Telegraph/November 25, 2004
By David Millward

An evangelical Christian accused of harassing the Mormon church spent nearly three hours knocking on an elder's door, the High Court was told yesterday.

Andrew Price, a preacher with the Church of England (Continuing) visited Elder Dustin Shaver at his home in Walthamstow, north London in September as part of his campaign against the Mormons.

Elder Shaver was not the only reluctant recipient of Mr Price's evangelising, Fenner Moeran, the Mormons' counsel, told Mr Justice Beatson.

On one night in August Mr Price bombarded Mormons - members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - with phone calls. He made 90 in less than four hours.

Mr Price also sent more than 80 evangelical texts from his mobile phone to a handset belonging to Elder Daniel Pitt over a period of two months.

The court was shown several videos of Mr Price in action. In one he was preaching in stentorian tones from behind metal railings at one of the Mormon church's London chapels.

In a second he was "evangelising" outside a metal gate to a garage at the Mormons' chapel in Hyde Park and in the third, he was at the door of the Mormons' offices in South Kensington.

The court heard how on Oct 28 Mr Price pursued three Mormons from their London headquarters in Exhibition Road, South Kensington to the Tube station.

He followed them on the Circle Line and Victoria Line until they finished their journey at Black horse Road in north London.

Throughout the journey Mr Price was trying to show them the error of their ways.

"I was addressing them and they were listening" he said. "In one sense I was preaching in so far as one Christian was speaking to them about the gospel."

The Mormon church has argued that Mr Price has taken evangelising too far and has asked the High Court to grant it an injunction to prevent him from continuing his protests outside its properties. It wants him kept at least 30 yards from any of its churches throughout the country. It also wants him banned from making calls to Mormons' mobile phones unless invited to do so.

But giving evidence yesterday Mr Price, 44, of Chiswick, west London said he believed it was his duty to inform people of what the religion stood for.

"I would describe Mormonism in its presentation as being like the Venus fly trap.

"There is something attractive which lures an insect into the body of the plant. Then it closes and the plant is happy because it has its prey."

Mr Price, who admitted he often spent six days a week preaching outside Mormon churches, denied he had shouted or screamed at worshippers.

"I have some experience of the effect talking and preaching has on the human voice," he said.

"It is simply not possible for a person to be shouting, screaming and ranting for a long period of time. The voice would go."

Admitting that his voice was stronger than most, Mr Price insisted that he was not addressing those inside the Mormon buildings but passers-by and visitors.

"It was my intention to bring to the public attention the nature of this body. It is a cult."

Cross-examined by Mr Moeran, he admitted that he spent considerable amounts of time preaching his message.

"I could be outside their buildings for eight hours a day, maybe longer," said Mr Price who describes himself as Britain's leading critic of the Mormon church.

Challenged why he had persisted in trying to contact Mormon missionaries, despite their pleas to be left alone, Mr Price said many had been brainwashed.

Asked whether he would abide by the terms of an injunction, Mr Price said: "My wife and I will have to make a lot of decisions.

"As far as I am concerned the Mormon people need help."

The hearing continues.

This is Bills first reply to my Question.

Bills said...

Rick


The real reason that faithful Latter-day Saints cannot accept Evangelical-Protestant beliefs is simple, because your god is a LOSER.

I know this statement sounds UN-loving and a bit harsh at first, but it's the honest TRUTH.

Clearly, your own interpretive theology makes void the Atonement of Christ and the Doctrine of Repentance. Sadly, according to your own religious philosophy, not everyone is going to be "SAVED." So, for you, your only choice is choose between heaven or hell and either choice you make is made from fear and ignorance.

Ultimately this means that your incomprehensible LOSER god is not just a LOSER, but also a SADIST.

So, in the providence and wisdom of Almighty God, do honestly believe that Jesus Christ is a dismal failure and too weak to
"Save" the entire human family?

Obviously, faithful Latter-day Saints do not share your same defective view of deity. I think it's truly a shame that you don't have a better description of your
loving Creator and the marvelous Plan Of Salvation.

As for the Latter-day Saints, our loving God came to seek and save that which is LOST. For us this happens to include EVERYONE within the entire human family. This is the reason we build Temples to the Most High God and send our loving
missionaries into all the world. One-by-one, people are coming to a knowledge of the restored TRUTH.
The Lord gladly accepts all those who truly REPENT -- Dead or alive. Eventually, all the children of God will be "SAVED/Restored" -- Praise be to God!

Consider the following words that were delivered by our Lord and Savior:

"What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance." Luke 15:4-7.

So let the true laborers in Thy Harvest; go forth, O God, even the Messengers of Thy Kingdom; and let Truth and Judgment go before Them unto Victory. so let Thy Kingdom come: and let Thy Will be done; even here upon Earth, as it is in Heaven: Amen.

Wishing you peace and much understanding,

Bills

PS -- Like Joseph Smith, Sir Isaac Newton also rejected the Trinity. Notice that the word Trinity is absent from every book of ancient scripture. Joseph Smith stated that the Trinity doctrine was an "ABOMINATION" and Newton declared it was a "FRAUD." Great minds think alike, don't they?

Bills Second reply to me was:

Bills
said...

Hey Rick B. it's Bills, my name is Bills -- Thank you!

Your whole purpose in evangelizing faithful Latter-day Saints is to SAVE them from burning in hell for all eternity -- Right?

So, anyone who is not "Saved" by your own interpretive theology will end-up in hell for the rest of eternity -- Right?

And, should I end-up in hell for the rest of eternity, this means that your defective idiot god is LOSER -- Right?

Well, somehow you just LOST me!

Nevertheless, I will never accept your idiot LOSER god philosophy or "ABOMINATION" theology.

The loving God that I worship knows how to "SAVE" the entire human family and not just a select few. Besides, only LOSERS are stupid enough to believe in some idiot god who's a LOSER.

So let the true laborers in Thy Harvest; go forth, O God, even the Messengers of Thy Kingdom; and let Truth and Judgment go before Them unto Victory. so let Thy Kingdom come: and let Thy Will be done; even here upon Earth, as it is in Heaven: Amen.


H A L L E L U J A H


Wishing you peace and much understanding,


Bills

PS -- Here's a list of Protestant-Evangelical teachings that are clearly absent from every book of ancient scripture. This should give you a few ideas to work on.

Trinity doctrine; Rapture theory; Alter calls; Sinners prayer; Death bed repentance; Salvation by faith alone theory; defective LOSER god philosophy; Biblical Inerrancy; Sola Scriptura; Creation Ex Nihilo.

The reason I am posting this is simple, I see (Bills) doing the same thing to non-mormons, as Andrew does to mormons. For all who disagree, please go and read my replys to him under the (2 questions) Topic. He came on trash talking, I asked him to at least reply to my questions before going off topic, and also to provide scripture to support his views, He did neither, yet replyed a second time, again talking trash. Then as I stated in my reply, I asked for Mormons to provide Ideas for topics, He sugested the Trinity, Yet I did an indepth article on the trinity, This tells me he never even looked over a single thing I wrote, he just came spouting off trash.

I have been on the FairLDS board and reachout trust board, One a mormon board one a non mormon board, both sides have rules for you to abide by and they do enforce them, Why should I be any different. Rick b

FOURTEEN FUNDAMENTALS IN FOLLOWING THE PROPHET

I am only posting these and adding one little thought at the very bottom, otherwise everything here is what Ezra Taft Benson said. And he supports all of this from both the 4 standerd works and LDS prophets and teachings of LDS in general. The reason I am posting all of this is, Because I will be quoting from these in my posts to come, I want people to be fully aware of these sayings and the scriptures that Ezra uses to support His teachings. Rick b



FOURTEEN FUNDAMENTALS IN FOLLOWING THE PROPHET
BY
ELDER Ezra Taft Benson
February 26, 1980

My beloved brothers and sisters, I am honored to be in your presence today. You students are a part of a choice young generation--a generation which might well witness the return of our Lord. Not only is the Church growing in numbers today, it is growing in faithfulness and, even more important, our young generation, as a group, is even more faithful than the older generation. God has reserved you for the eleventh hour--the great and dreadful day of the Lord. It will be your responsibility not only to help bear off the kingdom of God triumphantly but to save your own soul and strive to save those of your family and to honor the principles of our inspired constitution.

To help you pass the crucial tests which lie ahead I am going to give you today several facets of a grand key which, if you will honor them, will crown you with God's glory and bring you out victorious in spite of Satan's fury. Soon we will be honoring our prophet on his eighty-fifth birthday. As a Church we sing the song, "We Thank Thee, O God, For a Prophet." Here then is the grand key: follow the prophet. And here now are fourteen fundamentals in following the prophet, the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

In section 132, verse 7, of the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord speaks of the Prophet--the President--and says: "There is never but one on the earth at a time on whom his power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred." Then in section 21, verses 4-6, the Lord states:

Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;

For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.

For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

Did you hear what the Lord said about the words of the prophet? We are to "give heed unto all his words"--as if from the Lord's "own mouth."

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

President Wilford Woodruff tells of an interesting incident that occurred in the days of the Prophet Joseph Smith:

I will refer to a certain meeting I attended in the town of Kirtland in my early days. At that meeting some remarks were made that have been made here today, with regard to the living oracles and with regard to the written word of God. The same principle was presented, although not as extensively as it has been here, when a leading man in the Church got up and talked upon the subject, and said: "You have got the word of God before you here in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants; you have the written word of God, and you who give revelations should give revelations according to those books, as what is written in those books is the word of God. We should confine ourselves to them."

When he concluded, Brother Joseph turned to Brother Brigham Young and said, "Brother Brigham, I want you to take the stand and tell us your views with regard to the living oracles and the written word of God." Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said: "There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day. And now," said he, "when compared with the living oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books." That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: "Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth." [in Conference Report, October 1897, pp. 18-19)

Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

The living prophet has the power of TNT. By that I mean "Todays News Today." God's revelations to Adam did not instruct Noah how to build the ark. Noah needed his own revelation. Therefore, the most important prophet, so far as you and I are concerned, is the one living in our day and age to whom the Lord is currently revealing His will for us. Therefore, the most important reading we can do is any of the words of the prophet contained each week in the Church Section of the Deseret News, and any words of the prophet contained each month in our Church magazines. Our marching orders for each six months are found in the general conference addresses, which are printed in the Ensign magazine.

I am so grateful that the current conference report is studied as part of one of your religion classes--the course entitied "Teachings of the Living Prophets," number 333. May I commend that class to you, and suggest that you get a copy of the class manual at your bookstore, whether you're able to take the class or not. The manual is entitled "Living Prophets for a Living Church."

Beware of those who would pit the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence.

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "I say to Israel, The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God." (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, selected by G. Homer Durham [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1946], pp. 212-213.)

President Marion G. Romney tells of this incident, which happened to him:

I remember years ago when I was a Bishop I had President [Heber J.] Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home....Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: "My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it." Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, "But you don't need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray." [In Conference Report, October 1), p. 78]

Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

Sometimes there are those who feel their earthly knowledge on a certain subject is superior to the heavenly knowledge which God gives to His prophet on the same subject. They feel the prophet must have the same earthly credentials or training which they have had before they will accept anything the prophet has to say that might contradict their earthly schooling. How much earthly schooling did Joseph Smith have? Yet he gave revelations on all kinds of subjects. We haven't yet had a prophet who earned a doctorate in any subject, but as someone said, "A prophet may not have his Ph.D. but he certainly has his LDS." We encourage earthly knowledge in many areas, but remember, if there is ever a conflict between earthly knowledge and the words of the prophet, you stand with the prophet, and you'll be blessed and time will vindicate you.

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture.

Sometimes there are those who haggle over words. They might say the prophet gave us counsel, but that we are not obligated to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the Lord says of the Prophet Joseph, "Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you" (D&C 21:4).

And speaking of taking counsel from the prophet, in D&C 108:1, the Lord states: "Verily thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Lyman: Your sins are forgiven you, because you have obeyed my voice in coming up hither this morning to receive counsel of him whom I have appointed".

Said Brigham Young, "I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture" (Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints' Book Depot], 13:95).

Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

"Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear," complained Nephi's brethren. But Nephi answered by saying, "the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center" (1 Nephi 16:1, 3). Or, to put it in another prophet's words, "Hit pigeons flutter."

Said President Harold B. Lee:

You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life.... Your safety and ours depends upon whether or not we follow.... Let's keep our eye on the President of the Church. [in Conference Report, October 1970, p. 152-153)

But it is the living prophet who really upsets the world. "Even in the Church," said President Kimball, "many are prone to garnish the sepulchres of yesterday's prophets and mentally stone the living ones" (Instructor, 95:257).

Why? Because the living prophet gets at what we need to know now, and the world prefers that prophets either be dead or mind their own business. Some so-called experts of political science want the prophet to keep still on politics. Some would-be authorities on evolution want the prophet to keep still on evolution. And so the list goes on and on.

How we respond to the words of a living prophet when he tells us what we need to know, but would rather not hear, is a test of our faithfulness.

Said President Marion G. Romney, "It is an easy thing to believe in the dead prophets." And then he gives this illustration:

One day when President Grant was living, I sat in my office across the street following a general conference. A man came over to see me, an elderly man. He was very upset about what had been said in this conference by some of the Brethren, including myself. I could tell from his speech that he came from a foreign land. After I had quieted him enough so he would listen, I said, "Why did you come to America?" "I am here because a prophet of God told me to come." "Who was the prophet;" I continued. "Wilford Woodruff." "Do you believe Wilford Woodruff was a prophet of God?" "Yes, I do." "Do you believe that President Joseph F. Smith was a prophet of God?" "Yes, sir."

Then came the sixty-four dollar question. "Do you believe that Heber J. Grant is a prophet of God?" His answer, "I think he ought to keep his mouth shut about old age assistance."

Now I tell you that a man in his position is on the way to apostasy. He is forfeiting his chances for eternal life. So is everyone who cannot follow the living Prophet of God." [in Conference Report, April 1953, p. 125]

Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning. There will be times when you will have to choose between the revelations of God and the reasoning of men--between the prophet and the politician or professor. Said the Prophet Joseph Smith, "Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof until long after the events transpire" (Scrapbook of Mormon Literature, vol. 2, p. 173).

Would it seem reasonable to an eye doctor to be told to heal a blind man by spitting in the dirt, making clay, and applying it to the man's eyes and then telling him to wash in a contaminated pool? Yet this is precisely the course that Jesus took with one man, and he was healed. (See John 9:6-7.) Does it seem reasonable to cure leprosy by telling a man to wash seven times in a particular river? Yet this is precisely what the prophet Elisha told a leper to do, and he was healed. (See 2 Kings 5.)

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. [Isaiah 55:8,9]

Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter--temporal or spiritual.

Said Brigham Young:

Some of the leading men in Kirtland were much opposed to Joseph the Prophet, meddling with temporal affairs... .

In a public meeting of the Saints, I said, "Ye Elders of Israel.... will some of you draw the line of demarcation, between the spiritual and temporal in the Kingdom of God, so that I may understand it?" Not one of them could do it....

I defy any man on earth to point out the path a Prophet of God should walk in, or point out his duty, and just how far he must go, in dictating temporal or spiritual things. Temporal and spiritual things are inseparably connected, and ever will be. [Journal of Discourses, 10:363-364]

Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.

When a people are righteous they want the best to lead them in government. Alma was the head of the Church and of the government in the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith was mayor of Nauvoo, and Brigham Young was governor of Utah. Isaiah was deeply involved in giving counsel on political matters and of his words the Lord Himself said, "Great are the words of Isaiah" (3 Nephi 23:1). Those who would remove prophets from politics would take God out of government.

Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

The learned may feel the prophet is only inspired when he agrees with them; otherwise, the prophet is just giving his opinion--speaking as a man. The rich may feel they have no need to take counsel of a lowly prophet.

In the Book of Mormon we read:

O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches--yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them. [2 Nephi 9:28,29,42]

Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. The honest in heart heed his words, but the unrighteous either ignore the prophet or fight him. When the prophet points out the sins of the world, the worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn't exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Many a prophet has been killed or cast out.

As we come closer to the Lord's second coming, you can expect that as the people of the world become more wicked, the prophet will be less popular with them.

Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency--the highest quorum in the Church.

In the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord refers to the First Presidency as "the highest council of the Church" (107:80) and says, "whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those....the First Presidency, whom I have sent" (112:20).

Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency--the living prophet and the First Presidency--follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer.

President Harold B. Lee relates this incident from Church history:

The story is told in the early days of the Church--particularly, I think, at Kirtland--where some of the leading brethren in the presiding councils of the Church met secretly and tried to scheme as to how they could get rid of the Prophet Joseph's leadership. They made the mistake of inviting Brigham Young to one of these secret meetings. He rebuked them, after he had heard the purpose of their meeting. This is part of what he said: "You cannot destroy the appointment of a prophet of God, but you can cut the thread that binds you to the prophet of God and sink yourselves to hell." [In Conference Report, April 1963, p. 81]

In a general conference of the Church President N. Eldon Tanner stated:

The Prophet spoke out clearly on Friday morning, telling us what our responsibilities are... .

A man said to me after that, "You know, there are people in our state who believe in following the Prophet in everything they think is right, but when it is something they think isn't right, and it doesn't appeal to them, then that's different." He said, "Then they become their own prophet. They decide what the Lord wants and what the Lord doesn't want."

I thought how true, and how serious when we begin to choose which of the covenants, which of the commandments we will keep and follow. When we decide that there are some of them that we will not keep or follow, we are taking the law of the Lord into our own hands and become our own prophets, and believe me, we will be led astray, because we are false prophets to ourselves when we do not to follow the Prophet of God. No, we should never discriminate between these commandments, as to those we should and should not keep. [In Conference Report, October 1966, p. 98]

"Look to the Presidency and receive instruction," said the Prophet Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected by Joseph Fielding Smith [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1938], p. 161). But Almon Babbitt didn't, and in the Doctrine and Covenants section 124, verse 84, the Lord states:

And with my servant Almon Babbitt, there are many things with which I am not pleased; behold, he aspireth to establish his counsel instead of the counsel which I have ordained, even that of the Presidency of my Church.

In conclusion, let us summarize this grand key, these "Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet," for our salvation hangs on them.

First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture.

Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning.

Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.

Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency--the highest quorum in the Church.

Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency--the living prophet and the First Presidency--follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true.if we want to know how well we stand with the Lord, then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain. How closely do our lives harmonize with the words of the Lord's anointed--the living prophet, the President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency?

May God bless us all to look to the prophet and the presidency in the critical and crucial days ahead, is my prayer. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

I would like to point out, that I highlighted the part that the prophet Makes the claim all this is true And that OUR/YOUR SALVATION DEPENDS UPON THEM. So if any LDS state this stuff is not true, remember, we have a serious problem. The problem is, you saying the Prophet is and has taught lies?