This picks up where part two leaves off.
Now the Mormon most likely will respond as if you are just attacking their church. I suggest responding along these lines. In the P of GR P., under Joseph Smith 2:18-19, it says, “18:My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right and which I should join.19: I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the personage who addressed me said that ALL THEIR CREEDS WERE AN ABOMINATION IN HIS SIGHT; THAT THOSE PROFESSORS WERE ALL CORRUPT; THAT THEY DRAW NEAR TO ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEARTS ARE FAR FROM ME, THEY TEACH FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN, HAVING A FORM OF GODLINESS, BUT THEY DENY THE POWER THEREOF.”
In verse 17 it is God the Father and the Son speaking about the state of the Christian Church to Joseph Smith. We are not attacking, we are just responding to Joseph Smith’s statement about our church. Also, read to the Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10: “And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the lamb of god, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of God belongeth to the great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth”.
The LDS church teaches that if we do not belong to the Latter Day Saint’s church, then we belong to the church of the devil and are the whore of all the earth. This is a strong statement from a group of people saying they never attack any other beliefs and they are upset we are defending ourselves. Read also “Church of the Devil”, pg. 137; Christendom and Christian Era, pg. 131; and Christians and Christianity, pg. 132, all in Mormon Doctrine. Then read under “First Vision”, page 285-286 in Mormon doctrine. These all give really good descriptions of how Christians are viewed by the Mormon church. If they accuse us of attacking the Mormon Church, they better read up in their own books.
Joseph Smith said the B.O.M. is “the keystone to our religion” H.C. 4:46. He also said, “Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion?” on pg. 71 in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. So if we show their foundation is built on sand and their belief is unstable, then we can proceed to show them the rock upon which the true church is built and the corner stone is Jesus Christ.
The Mormons believe in grace plus works. An example you can use is: If you were on a beach that had a lifeguard and you were swimming then started to drown, a lifeguard would not just run out and try to save you. Otherwise, in your panic you could kill both the lifeguard and yourself. He will wait until you tire out and start to go down. We cannot kill or pull down Jesus who is our lifeguard, but we could say our screaming and thrashing is our works. They really cannot do anything to save us, they will just tire us out, and we will drown and die. If we call out for the lifeguard “Jesus” to save us, he will, but not while we try to do it ourselves. You can give other ideas and do a bible study and teach the Mormon about grace plus works. This was just one example I like to use.
Something the Mormon might say is that you are only pointing out the apparent bad things in our church and you never point out the good things. If this happens then politely point out that you agree with the Mormon Church on the issues like, marriage is good, homosexuality is a sin, theft is a sin, murder is a sin, ect. Point out a few things you know you agree on and say something like, “See, we agree on some things.” But then point out these good things cannot save you. What happens if you believe many good things yet are wrong on who Jesus is? You may also go from here to wherever you left off.
A question I am asked a lot is, do the Mormons use a normal bible like believers or do they have there own bible like the JW’S? The answer is yes and no. Yes, because they use the K.J.V and it is the same as we use. The only difference would be is that they have Mormon footnotes that we don’t believe in. The no part is that they do have what is called the Joseph Smith’s “New Translation” of the Bible. Here is another good chance to open a talk. This subject is one I use with people like the “Mormon Answer Man.“ D and C 74:3-4 says, “3.Now, verily I say unto you my servants, Joseph Smith Jun, and Sidney Rigdon, saith the Lord, it is expedient to translate again; 4.And, inasmuch as it is practicable, to preach in the regions round about until conference; and after that it is expedient to continue the work of Translation until it be finished.”
Notice that the Lord told them to do this work and to finish the work. Now add 1 Nephi 3:7 to this. “And it came to pass that I Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.“ When I talk to Mormons I will say, “You know how people have a favorite Bible verse? Well, I have a favorite verse in the B.O.M. and this is it.” You can use this verse when talking about how the Mormons need to be perfect and keep the whole law. Point out how this verse says that God will make it possible for them to be perfect and ask why they can’t seem to follow this logic.
Anyway, back to the J.S.T of the Bible. You might be able to back order a copy of the 1993-1994 Church Almanac from the local Mormon bookstore. On page 339, under 1833, July 2, it says, “The prophet Joseph Smith finished the Translation of the Bible.” In the 2003 Almanac on page 536, under 1883, July 2, it says, “The prophet Joseph Smith finished the Translation of the New Testament.” I believe that whatever year we happen to be in, you could buy an updated Almanac and find the year 1883, look under July 2, and it will say this. If it only says he finished the New Testament, try and get the 93-94 edition that says he finished the whole Bible. The reason why is that in the J.S.T. of the Bible, it says on page 10: “COMPLETION” POSSIBLY NOT FINAL. Then, on page 11 it says Mormon authors Sperry and Van Wagoner have pointed out that the Psalms are evidence of the incompleteness of the translation.
On page 258 of the book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1989 version, he says and I quote, “My feelings at the present time are that, inasmuch as the Lord Almighty has preserved me until today, He will continue to preserve me, by the united faith and prayers of the saints, until I have fully accomplished my mission in this life.” It appears that Joseph Smith was wrong, and he did not fully accomplish his mission. Part of his mission given by God in D and C was to finish the J.S.T. and it said right in there he did not finish the work. Point out that either Joseph Smith was a false prophet or God is a liar/failure for not keeping Joseph Smith alive to finish his job given by God Himself.
In the J.S.T. of the Bible, the first 24 pages talk about all this plus lots of other fun stuff to point out. I suggest buying a copy to use with the Mormon. Point out that in the D and C and the Church Almanac, Joseph Smith was told by God to finish it; in the B.O.M. says that God will grant you the ability to finish what he told you to do. But in the J.S.T., it teaches that it is not finished. So what is the deal - is it, or is it not? Also, they sell the J.S.T. in the local Mormon bookstore and the Mormon will admit that parts of the J.S.T. are found in the footnotes of the B.O.M. and D and C. Plus, a good portion of the P of GR P is the same as the J.S.T., yet they don’t carry it, pass it out, or use it.
The Mormon will say that the Reorganized Latter Day Saints own the rights to the J.S.T. and therefore, it is not trustworthy. I point out that it is kind of funny how they don’t trust the Bible because the Church fell into total apostasy, yet the Lord tells Joseph Smith to fix the Bible and then the Lord allows it to be re-corrupted by falling to the Reorganized Church? That makes zero sense. Also, why does the local Mormon bookstore sell it if you don’t use it? Something you can point out to the Mormon is that they don’t use the J.S.T because they feel it has been corrupted by the RLDS, yet it can be found within the footnotes of their books. Please tell me who decides which verses were good to use and which verses were corrupted? Therefore, you cannot use the rest.
Most of the time, it will get the Mormon thinking without a response, but you also will get a stupid response here and there. There are 13 Articles of Faith, and number 8 says, “We believe the Bible to be the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God.” Personally, I like to use the J.S.T. on the Mormon. What I tend to do is prepare ahead verses I know I will use with the Mormon and check them in the J.S.T. If they are not found in the J.S.T. that means Joseph Smith did not mess with them. Then, I bring up a verse to the Mormon in the K.J.V. I remind him that if he uses the J.S.T. in his footnotes and God told Joseph Smith to finish the book and your church claims he did finish it, then, due to the fact that Joseph Smith did not change it, there is an implication that God was fine with the way it was. Therefore, we now can go on to what the verse means. For example, the Mormons believe in grace plus works. In Romans 3:28 it says, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” (K.J.V.) Now in Romans 3:28 of the J.S.T. it says, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law.”
Here is a mistake that no one caught, but can work to your benefit. I call it a mistake because the Mormon believes in grace plus works, but also down in verse 16 in the J.S.T it teaches grace plus works. The J.S.T. contradicts itself in this area, so point out how the Mormon Church teaches works, yet according to God, works is wrong. Another one would be in Isaiah where there are lots of verses that teach God knows of no other Gods besides Him. In the J.S.T., these verses were never messed with, so you can point out that they were never touched, therefore they must mean what they say.
The Mormon Church teaches what is called the pre-existence. They believe we were spirits born in heaven and then when we were born into earth here, we were born forgetting the pre-existence. It is more in-depth than this, but this is just a simple form of it. The thing I like to point out to the Mormon is in Job where God says to Job, “Where were you when I created the heavens and earth and did all that was done?” Tell the Mormon Titus and Hebrews point out that God cannot lie. If we were really with God before being sent to earth, why did God not just say to Job, “Don’t you remember when I did all this since you were with me?”
For God to say, “Where were you?” implies we were not there, otherwise God lied which it is impossible for Him to do. The Mormon will usually say that the Bible says, “I knew you before you were formed.” You can respond however you want, but I respond by saying that it is like a carpenter who puts plans on paper to build a house. He knows what the house looks like, even though plans are on paper and it is not built.
Another question I like to ask the Mormon is: “If the gospel means good news and you say you believe the good news, then what exactly is the good news of your belief?” They have always told me that it is the fact that the Mormon Church has “Living Prophets” and new “ongoing” revelations. It could change depending on the Mormon, but that is generally what I am told. I will then point out that if they have no hope of salvation and they have hundreds of laws to keep how is this good. To help you out with this logic, you can go to this website: (www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/followingthebrethren.htm. If an error occurs here, go to www.utlm.org. This is the Tanners web site. You should be able to find the Fourteen Fundamentals in following the Prophet. They were given at Brigham Young University and by the former Mormon Prophet/President Ezra Taft Benson. I don't think any Mormon would argue with you if you show them these. All 14 give scripture - both ours (“The Bible”) and theirs - to back these statements up.
I won’t list all 14, but I will list the ones I like the best and use most often with the list of questions I ask. These are directly quoted:
FIRST: The Prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
SECOND: The living Prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
THIRD: The living Prophet is more important to us than a dead Prophet.
FOURTH: The Prophet will never lead the Church astray.
SIXTH: The Prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the lord”, to give us scripture.
ELEVENTH: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the Prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
FOURTEENTH: The Prophet and the presidency--the living Prophet and the first presidency--follow them and be blessed--reject them and suffer.
You can use these anyway you want or how you feel the Lord is leading you. Here are some ways I use these sayings from the prophet. Remember, I pointed out how the Prophet Joseph Smith taught that the B.O.M. is the keystone to their religion in H.C. 4:46. In the book Teachings, on page 71 Joseph Smith said, “Take away the book of Mormon and the revelations and where is our religion.” Then, according to number 2, you could just throw away the B.O.M. and listen to the Prophet. Then if the Mormon says, “Well that is nonsense add number 3 and say Joseph Smith might have been a Prophet but he is now dead and the living Prophet supersedes the dead one. Then add number 4 to it also and say remember the Prophet will not lead the Church astray.
Now another one I like to ask Mormons and even people like the “Mormon answer man” is found in the J.S.T. on page 10 under the heading “Completion” possibly not final. It goes on to say “The angel who visited Joseph Smith on the night of September 21, 1823, quoted the Prophet Malachi as follows”
“For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly shall burn as stubble, for they that cometh shall burn them saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch...
Behold, I will reveal unto you the priesthood by the hand of Elijah the Prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord...
And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers; if it were not so the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming.”
It goes on to say “This differs at important points from the King James Version of Malachi, but the Inspired Version is identical with the King James Version.” The above verse is from chapter 4 in Malachi. Now some of the problems we have is this. In both versions it says “Thus saith the Lord” implying God said so, so did God forget what he said, otherwise the angel misquoted what the Lord spoke but then that also is problem. The next option is Joseph wrote it down wrong but then that would mean 2 things, 1. He was not a true Prophet of God and 2, he failed in his mission according to both D and C 1:14 and D and C 74 and according to former president Ezra Taft Benson who gave the 14 fundamentals of following the brethren. I have shown this to many Mormons as of yet nobody can seem to give me an answer, they all just say I don’t know what to tell you. The other thing about all this also is Joseph Smith did not included the book of Malachi in the J.S.T. which would imply to me, that nothing was wrong with that book, Therefore how could it be misquoted? I say nothing was wrong with it because the reason it was “Fixed” the bible that is, by Joseph Smith was God told him the Bible had errors in it (A of F number 8). And only this misquoted verse appears in the book so it really makes no sense?
Now lets look at a couple of the really stupid stories in the B.O.M. I would not say to a Mormon these stories are really stupid, I would say how could the B.O.M. be truly inspired with stories like these in it. I might only point out these stories as the Mormon is getting ready to leave, just say here is one last thing to think about when you read your B.O.M. and come across these stories.
This is one story I just recently came across as I read through the B.O.M. Read Alma chapter 55 and I will just point out a few things in this story. First in the Word of Wisdom found in D and C chapter 89 it teaches a Mormon is not allowed to drink alcohol. Now you might think this is not a major doctrine so why bother, here is why. I have pointed out to the Mormon Jesus drank wine and turned water to wine before, and they just responded that it was non-alcoholic wine, in other words just grape juice. So I would point out how Jesus was accused of being a drunkard and you cannot get drunk off of non-alcoholic wine.
Now here is where it relates to the story in Alma 55. In Hebrews 13:8 it says 8:Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. In Moroni 10:19 it also teaches that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. But in Alma 55 we find that they were drinking wine to the point they got drunk, And this wine came from the Mormon prophet Moroni. Why can he drink wine but nobody else, This just tells me (my) God is a changing God.
Now more on this story is this. The Lamanites and Nephites were fighting each other and so the Nephites did not want to shed blood so they sent a few of there people over to the Lamanites camp pretending to be Lamanites and brought there wine and got them all drunk and when everybody was good and drunk they took them with out force.
Now to go along with a God who never changes lets add this. Black people today at one time were considered cursed by God and could never hold the priesthood. But later there was a revelation given by God that stated the blacks could hold the priesthood. This revelation was given in Salt Lake City in 1978,now this poses a problem? The problem is the black people are still black, and this implies they still have the mark of the curse. Yet we read in 3 Nephi 2:15 (And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites). Why would God lift the cursed skin from these people back then but not today? Since 1978 till today is about 25 years. The Scriptures teach nothing is impossible for God, but appears it is, and as I pointed out the God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. That would appear to be false also. Now for another good story. Read Ether 2:16-25
This story really makes God look stupid. In short the brother of Jared was told by God himself to build a barge, and it was built so airtight that the brother of Jared went back to God and said we have no light in side to see by and no air to breath. So then God tells him to drill a hole in the top and the bottom of the barge, then to put plugs in the hole to keep water from coming in. And God even states if you pull a plug and water comes in put the plug back in and pull the other plug instead, this implies water will come in.
I talked to a Mormon about this story once and pointed out how, if water comes in then it will displace air, therefore you will have less air to breath and eventually you will keep filling up with water to the point where it will sink or you will drown. Plus all the things in the ship will get destroyed by water. I pointed out how if you pull what you think is the plug up top implying you are upright and you pull it and water comes in then it means one of two things, you are either under water and therefore you would sink or you were turned upside down. And if you keep getting thrown about to the point where you cannot tell which way is up then you can or will be seriously hurt.
The response I received from the Mormon is (Rick) you just don’t understand fully what you just read. I really believe this is a good story to show how the B.O.M. cannot be inspired by God it really makes him look stupid. Ok now lets move on to things found in the B.O.M.
We will look at a few things you can point out and say did this really happen or how can this book be truly inspired with things like this in it. Just in about half of the book of Mormon I put together a list of around 110 things either really stupid or that are Christian theology taken from the bible that Mormon's deny like the trinity, or saved by grace alone. I will not list everything so it would be best if you go through and read it and put together your own list. A lot of what is listed is only parts of a verse to say on space and time, please read for context before pointing this stuff out to the Mormon. Nothing is twisted or taken out of context, I just do not want to make an entire book here so it is easier to just list the part I want to focus on.
1 Nephi 1:2: The Jews use the language of the Egyptians.
1 Nephi 1:8: And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he THOUGHT HE SAW GOD sitting upon his throne.
How can you say I thought I saw god? You either did or did not.
1 Nephi 16:18: And it came to pass that as I Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine steel.
How can you break a bow made of fine steel? You could take cheap steel and beat it over a rock or on something very hard and try as you might you will have a really hard time trying to break it. Also if you have a bow you will do all you can not to use it in such a way as to possibly break it in such a careless manor.
Enos 20: They ate raw meat.
Every body knows Gold, Diamonds and Pearls are rare therefore most precious but have you ever heard of ZIFF as a precious metal.
Mosiah 11:8: Ziff (a precious thing) king Noah used. To this day it has never been heard of or found. It must be really precious and rare to still be undiscovered.
Alma 10:4-9: First the guy (Amulek) in this story says in verses 5:Never the less after all this I never have known much of the ways of the Lord, and his mysteries and marvelous power. I say I never had known much of these things; but behold; I mistake, for I have seen much of his mysteries and his marvelous power.
So which is it? Then it goes on to say that Amulek admits he openly rebelled against God and is living in rebellion to Him. Then God sends and Angel to him telling him I will use you this day to feed a Prophet of God. That would be like God speaking to Charles Mansion and saying I will use you this day to feed Billy Graham.
Now in Alma 10:17: This same Amulek who just admitted he was rebelling against God, so we know it is not an Angel in the form of a man or God himself in the form of a man goes on in verse 17 to say he (Amulek) perceived their thoughts. How can a mortal man know your thoughts or read your mind so to speak. Only God can do this. It is not stated that God gave him the power to do so. In case a Mormon says this is the reason it happened.
Alma 13:18: Claims Melchizedek had a Father, this denies the Bible.
Alma 19:29: Jesus is mentioned but the date is B.C. 90. The reason why this is mentioned is because Jesus took the queen by the hand and lifted her up. But there are many verses that talk about the “Coming” in the future time of Jesus. So is he coming or is he here already?
Alma 21:6: We do believe God will save ALL men. Well they believe wrong because we know not all men will be saved. The B.O.M. even teaches some will go to hell?
Alma 24:19: And thus we see that they buried their weapons of peace, or they buried the weapons of war, for peace. Which is it?
Now lets move on to the Doctrine in the B.O.M.
Most of this will be self explanatory otherwise if needed it will be explained why it is here.
First the phrase “And it came to pass” is used something like 1,600 times in the B.O.M. I am not sure of the exact number. But this phrase alone would remove around 20 pages of the B.O.M alone.
1 Nephi 2:19: And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying; blessed art thou, Nephi, because of thy faith, for thou hast sought me diligently, with lowliness of heart. This is listed because he searched for God and it would stand to reason he search the scriptures. And many Mormons only pray about this not search them.
1 Nephi 3:7: The Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them. In other words the Mormon is taught to live according to the law, but they fail at this. According to this verse they should not fail and should be able to fulfill the entire law if this is what God real requires of them as they are taught.
1 Nephi 11:21: Behold the Lamb of God yea, even the son of the Eternal Father. If you need to pull out the dictionary to define Everlasting or Endless with the Mormon I suggest you do it. According to this verse and others in the B.O.M. they state God is Eternal or Endless yet on pg 345 of Teachings it says God was one a man that exalted to Godhood.
To prove this point out D and C 132:4 to the Mormons and they will think you are going to argue the issue of plural wives. Verse 4:For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant. Ask what exactly everlasting means. This is how you can get them to define everlasting in their words. Then go back to the dictionary and the issue of god.
1 Nephi 11:32: Everlasting God
1 Nephi 13:6: I beheld this great and Abominable Church; and I saw the devil was the foundation of it. Here is an example of how if the Mormon says you’re picking on my Church, let them know this is how they view our church. Anyone that is not part of there Church belongs to the Devil.
1 Nephi 13:40: That the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be Saved. First it says the lamb who is Jesus is the Son of God, This is important because there are verses that say the Devil is an Angel. If Jesus was an Angel then how can he know be a son.
I know they will say we will all be sons some day. Point out in Hebrews 1:5 For which of the Angels did he ever say: You are my son today I have begotten you. Hebrews 5:5 repeats this. Then add to this Titus 1:2 God cannot lie. Hebrews 6:18, It is impossible for God to lie. Now the Mormon might say well we don't trust the Bible because it is corrupted, so point out Enos 6: And I Enos, knew that God could not lie.
So go back to Hebrews 1:5 and 5:5. Point out this is God saying this and he cannot lie. If they stay and continue to talk you’re doing good.
2 Nephi 2:7-9: These verses say Jesus offers himself as a sacrifice for Sin, to answer the ends of the law. And that no flesh can dwell in the presence of God save it be through the merits and mercy, and grace of the holy messiah who layth down his life. They that believe in him should be saved. No mention anywhere of any works. Again God cannot lie.
Mormons believe God is Omniscience meaning knows all things, as do I. My point in this is, if I can see no mention of works in these verses and it leads me to believe no works are needed to be saved, and therefore if they really are needed then I would think God is smart enough to figure this out. And not leave me with many unanswered questions that would cause me to not be saved.
2 Nephi 2:17-18: Teaches the Devil was an Angel of God and fell from heaven then deceived Adam and Eve to cause them to get kicked out of the garden. Yet Mormons believe it was God’s design for this to happen. I don't believe it was Gods design for Lucifer to fall, he had free will and chose to fall. I don't believe he was created to become evil.
2 Nephi 9:8-9: Says God the Father is Eternal and that we can end up like Lucifer being shut out in misery forever. No mention of a second chance or baptism after death.
2 Nephi 24:12-15: These verses are very much like Isaiah talking about the fall of Lucifer from Heaven. This verse says Lucifer was thrown out of Heaven for trying to be like the most High God. What is good about this verse is it goes against what Mormons believe about Jesus and Lucifer going to God with there own plans for the redemption of earth.
It also says, God is the most High God. How can this be so if God had a Father who before him was a God. If it is the Mormons goal to attain Godhood why was it wrong for Lucifer to try doing the same thing?
2 Nephi 26:12: Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God. Notice it says THE Eternal God. Was Jesus an Angel that became a God or is he GOD?
2 Nephi 27:12: This verse is speaking about the B.O.M. it does not mention the book by name but it mentions being viewed by 3 witnesses and how they shall testify of it’s Truth. So if this book is true why do Mormons not truly believe these things. Mormon Doctrine that is used today truly goes against the teachings of the B.O.M.
To go along with the last verse here is,
2 Nephi 31:21: And now, Behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven where by man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the Doctrine of Christ, and the only and True Doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God with out end. Amen. The Trinity and Salvation with out works is also mentioned.
Jacob 1:19: Says if we do not teach the word of God with all diligence, then the blood of the people will be upon our heads. Point out as the Mormon is getting ready to leave, because they feel you are just picking on them that they are following this verse by leaving. Point out that they are not enduring like the Mormons of old. Then add for fun this next verse as they are leaving.
Alma 26:29-30 29: And we have entered into their houses and taught them, and we have taught them in their streets; yea, and we have taught them upon their hills; and we have also entered into their temples and their synagogues and taught them; and we have been cast out, and mocked, and spit upon, and smote upon our cheeks; and we have been stoned, and taken and bound with strong cords, and cast into prison; and through the power and wisdom of God we have been delivered again. 30: And we have suffered all manner of afflictions, and all this, that perhaps we might be the means of saving some soul; and we supposed that our joy would be full if perhaps we could be the means of saving some.
Now remember we are not letting the Mormon in to teach us. But the Mormon thinks he/she is doing that. Yet when we point out error they tend to run. Just say how can I truly believe if I notice a perceived problem, yet just overlook it and believe it in blind faith. In light of Scriptures teaching to search the Scriptures, and when Scriptures teach you have the “Truth” yet you wont share it. Point out they most likely had questions themselves and someone took the time to talk and not run. See where I'm going here?
Jacob 3:11: That ye may not become Angels to the Devil, to be cast into that lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. Mormons deny the hell, Christians believe in.
Jacob 6:10: And according to the power of justice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire and brimstone is endless torment.
Jacob 7:23
Alma 14:1 17:2 33:2: All say search the Scriptures, which the Mormons don’t seem to do.
Mosiah 1:6: O my sons, I would that ye should remember that these sayings are true, and also that these records are true. This is referring to all the records that end up forming the B.O.M.
If these things are true then ask why Mormonism denies these teachings.
Mosiah 3:5: The lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all Eternity to Eternity. So was God, God in the beginning or was he a man that became a God?
Mosiah 3:11-13: Says Jesus Blood Atones, for sin of fallen man. And Salvation only comes through faith and repentance in Christ alone. No mention of works. It also says, Christ sent his Holy Prophets to declare this to us.
Mosiah 3:17-19: Salvation only in the name of Christ, no works mentioned.
Mosiah 7:26-28: Christ is the Father God. Not a God.
Mosiah 12:31-34: Now it teaches you must follow the law to be saved. So which is it, grace alone, or by works.
Mosiah 15:1-5: This teaches the Trinity, and that God the Father is Eternal.
Mosiah 28:3: The Gospel should be declared unto every creature, because their is endless torment that awaits them other wise.
Mosiah 28:7: Eternal life by believing. No mention of good works or having to enter the temple to be saved.
Alma 3:26-27: People judged according to their works. Resulting in Eternal joy or misery. No mention of second chance or baptism for the dead.
Mosiah 15:26-27: If you die in your Sins you will perish for the Lord cannot redeem you after death. So much for second chance theology or baptism for the dead.
Mosiah 25:13-18: People are baptizing with no mention of having any priesthood authority to do so.
Mosiah 26:22-27: People that are redeemed by Christ can sit on his right hand in heaven. No mention of 3 degrees of glory. Also if you are not redeemed you will burn in everlasting fire.
Mosiah 26:30-35: As often as you repent you will be Forgiven. This denies Mormon Doctrine and the Miracle of Forgiveness. Did Spencer Kimbal not read this part?
Alma 7:10: The Virgin Mary was over shadowed. This denies what Mormons teach and the verse I already quoted.
Alma 10:2: Handwriting on the wall. This is similar to the account in Daniel.
Alma 10:28: Some one is called a child of the Devil. Mormons teach we are all brothers. Even brothers of Lucifer. Many Mormons have told me Lucifer is there brother. But the context in this saying does not imply we are all brothers as Mormons teach.
Alma 11:21-41: A debate between to people asking if there is only one true God or not. Turns out there is only one true God.
Alma 11:44: The Trinity, Which Mormonism denies.
Alma 12:14-17: Judgment according to our works, ending in a second death.
Alma 13:7-9: Jesus no beginning of days.
Alma 13:20: The Scriptures are before you. (B.O.M.) If you deny them it is to your own destruction.
Alma 19:36: The Spirit was poured out upon all people. This is important because Mormonism teaches the Spirit can only be in one place at one time. So how can he be poured out upon many people at one time. Page 359, in M.D under Holy Ghost says (He can only be in one place at one time). Then on page 753, of M.D under Spirit of the Lord it says (The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, he constitutes the third person in the Trinity, the Godhead). It is interesting they mention the Trinity in this manor when they deny the Trinity.
Also on page 753, it goes on to say (The Spirit which is the Holy Ghost is a revelator). So point out the Holy Spirit is the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost or Spirit according to Apostle Bruce m, can only be in one place at one time. Did he not read Alma 19:36?
Alma 21:9: Redemption through Christ alone. No works or temple service mentioned.
Alma 24:9-11: There is forgiveness for the person(s) who commit murder. This denies the teachings of Spencer Kimbal in the book Miracle. Again did he not read this part?
According to Mormonism the atonement took place in the garden of Gethsemane not on the Cross. It happened when Jesus sweated great drops of blood. Yet in this next verse it says,
Alma 24:13: Through the Blood of the Son of our great God, which shall be SHED for the atonement of our sins. Notice it did not say sweated, and you cannot shed blood by sweating.
Alma 26:14: The most High God. Again if there is a God(s) above God the Father how can he be the most High?
Mormons pray for a burning in the bosom to know if the B.O.M. is true. Yet in this next verse it denies that.
Alma 30:43-46 Korihor asks Alma for a sign to prove God is real. Alma rebukes him saying the Scriptures are laid out, You also have the testimony of the Holy Prophets and the creation as a sign. And he rebukes him harshly, Show this to Mormons when they mention the burning in the bosom.
Alma 30:60: Says the Devil drags people to Hell. I thought there was no Hell?
Well this is only really just a few verses out of the hundreds. This is only half the book at best. So now let’s take a look at the Book Doctrines of Salvation. This book was put out in 1956, it is now out of print. I believe you could find it in a used bookstore, or get a copy off of ebay. Most Mormons I met have this or read it so they already should be familiar with it.
This is the thing I want to point out. Joseph Smith said. “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book”. History of the Church vol 4, pg 461 and Mormon Doctrine pg 99 under Book of Mormon.
He also said “Take away the book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none” Teachings pg 71, and pg 99 of M.D also. But now in Doctrines of Salvation vol 3, pg 198 Joseph F Smith 10th president and Prophet of the Church said, “In my judgment there is no book on earth yet come to man as important as the book known as the Doctrine and Covenants, with all due respect to the Book of Mormon, and the Bible, and the Pearl of Great Price, which we say our standards in Doctrine. The book of Doctrine and Covenants to us stands in a peculiar position above them all.”
I am going to tell you why. When I say that do not for a moment think I do not value the Book of Mormon, the Bible, and the Pearl of Great Price, just as much as any man that lives; I think I do. I do not know of anybody who has read them more and I appreciate them; they are wonderful; they contain Doctrine and Revelation and Commandments that we should heed; but the Bible is a History containing the Doctrine and Commandments given to the people anciently. That applies also to the Book of Mormon. It is the Doctrine and the History and the Commandments of the people who dwelt upon this continent anciently.
But this Doctrine and Covenants contains the word of God to those who dwell here now. It is our book. It belongs to the Latter-Day Saints. More precious than gold, the Prophet says we should treasure it more than the riches of the whole earth.
Notice he said about the B.O.M. It is Doctrine and History of people that dwelt here. Yet Joseph Smith said the B.O.M contains the fullness of the Everlasting Gospel. It would appear as if another Prophet of the Church disagrees with him. But lets go one step further with this thought. Lets add what Ezra Taft Benson said, who also happens to be a Prophet and President of the Church as these two were also.
Under the 14 fundamentals of following the brethren, it says under number 2 “The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works”. Of these 3 prophets who is right? They all disagree on what is the most important. Remember number 4 says the “Prophet will never lead the Church astray.” They’re not necessarily leading the Church astray, but there is confusion as to who is right.
If the D and C is more important then the B.O.M. why is it not passed out by the Mormon Missionary’s. Yet if the Prophet is more important, why pass out any book? It leaves to many questions. If it is true that the B.O.M. is nothing more then a recorded of ancient people, then how can I get nearer to God by reading it as Joseph Smith states?
Now let me touch on the Journal of Discourses. I personally like to talk about the Adam God Doctrine. But whatever topic you choose from the Journals, I find most Mormons will say we don’t use or trust them because they were written in short hand and cannot be accurate. They might also say they did not have the same technology back then as we do today that is why they do not trust it..
I will point out a few things. 1. In the newspaper almost daily I see a section set-aside for corrections. If we can make many mistakes today with our “Technogaly” then we should except they also were not perfect.
2. When I discuss Adam God, Mormons, say that was just his mere opinion. Point out that the “Prophet will not lead the Church” astray number 4. The Prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the lord” to give us Scripture. number 6. If he does not need to say “Thus saith the Lord”, then how can we decide if he is giving us Scripture or his mere opion.
To show it was not mere opion read to then the Adam God teaching, and show them the part that says this. “My next sermon will be to both Saint and Sinner.” “One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day.” This does not sound like mere opion. He goes on to later say, “Every man upon the earth, professing Christian or non professing, must here it, and will know it sooner or later.”
Now for the best part. “Now let all who may hear these Doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their Salvation or Damnation.” Notice he said they are Doctrines. Then in volume 13 B Young says on pg 95, “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture.” On page 264 of volume 13 Orson Hyde another Apostle of the Church said, “When B Young sends forth his Discourses they are as good as Scripture found in the Bible.”
If this still does not get the Mormon thinking, you can point out in both the Mormon Encyclopedia and M.D. That they both say that the, (King Follet Discourses) given by J Smith in volume 6, is his greatest sermon ever given. A lot of today's doctrine comes from that sermon, so why can they pick and chose from the Journals yet I cannot.
You can also point out that in 1925 the Mormon church put out a book called (Discourses of B Young). They republished it in the mid 50’s. The entire book is sayings of B Young taken from the Journal of Discourses. The Church feels most of what he said was good. It is funny though that between the 1925 edition and the 50’s edition there have been around 200 pages removed.
One other thing you can show the Mormon is page 216 in volume 14 of the J.O.D. president George A Smith said “If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if it’s preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak.”
Well it is my goal to better equip the saints to witness to Mormons. This is just a small amount of information in reality to what is really out there. I am trying to give some ideas on how to possibly approach Mormonism, with the books most people have or can get. I also just showed a few things with the “Rare” or hard to get books for people who either have them or will get them.
It is my desire to see Mormons come to Christ, If anyone would like to write me with questions or looking for ideas please feel free to write me at my email account. It is (rickshelli@hotmail.com) please put in the subject line Mormonism so I know it is not junk mail or a virus. Please feel free to hand out this information to who ever you feel will benefit from it. This is to be given freely to help equip the saints. I pray this will be a blessing to all who need the help and read it. RICK BEAUDIN.
Monday, March 12, 2007
Wednesday, March 07, 2007
Witnessing tips. Part2
This picks up where part 1 left off.
Now the Mormon most likely will respond as if you are just attacking their church. I suggest responding along these lines. In the P of GR P., under Joseph Smith 2:18-19, it says, “18:My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right and which I should join.19: I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the personage who addressed me said that ALL THEIR CREEDS WERE AN ABOMINATION IN HIS SIGHT; THAT THOSE PROFESSORS WERE ALL CORRUPT; THAT THEY DRAW NEAR TO ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEARTS ARE FAR FROM ME, THEY TEACH FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN, HAVING A FORM OF GODLINESS, BUT THEY DENY THE POWER THEREOF.”
In verse 17 it is God the Father and the Son speaking about the state of the Christian Church to Joseph Smith. We are not attacking, we are just responding to Joseph Smith’s statement about our church. Also, read to the Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10: “And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the lamb of god, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of God belongeth to the great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth”.
The LDS church teaches that if we do not belong to the Latter Day Saint’s church, then we belong to the church of the devil and are the whore of all the earth. This is a strong statement from a group of people saying they never attack any other beliefs and they are upset we are defending ourselves. Read also “Church of the Devil”, pg. 137; Christendom and Christian Era, pg. 131; and Christians and Christianity, pg. 132, all in Mormon Doctrine. Then read under “First Vision”, page 285-286 in Mormon doctrine. These all give really good descriptions of how Christians are viewed by the Mormon church. If they accuse us of attacking the Mormon Church, they better read up in their own books.
Joseph Smith said the B.O.M. is “the keystone to our religion” H.C. 4:46. He also said, “Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion?” on pg. 71 in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. So if we show their foundation is built on sand and their belief is unstable, then we can proceed to show them the rock upon which the true church is built and the corner stone is Jesus Christ.
The Mormons believe in grace plus works. An example you can use is: If you were on a beach that had a lifeguard and you were swimming then started to drown, a lifeguard would not just run out and try to save you. Otherwise, in your panic you could kill both the lifeguard and yourself. He will wait until you tire out and start to go down. We cannot kill or pull down Jesus who is our lifeguard, but we could say our screaming and thrashing is our works. They really cannot do anything to save us, they will just tire us out, and we will drown and die. If we call out for the lifeguard “Jesus” to save us, he will, but not while we try to do it ourselves. You can give other ideas and do a bible study and teach the Mormon about grace plus works. This was just one example I like to use.
Something the Mormon might say is that you are only pointing out the apparent bad things in our church and you never point out the good things. If this happens then politely point out that you agree with the Mormon Church on the issues like, marriage is good, homosexuality is a sin, theft is a sin, murder is a sin, ect. Point out a few things you know you agree on and say something like, “See, we agree on some things.” But then point out these good things cannot save you. What happens if you believe many good things yet are wrong on who Jesus is? You may also go from here to wherever you left off.
A question I am asked a lot is, do the Mormons use a normal bible like believers or do they have there own bible like the JW’S? The answer is yes and no. Yes, because they use the K.J.V and it is the same as we use. The only difference would be is that they have Mormon footnotes that we don’t believe in. The no part is that they do have what is called the Joseph Smith’s “New Translation” of the Bible. Here is another good chance to open a talk. This subject is one I use with people like the “Mormon Answer Man.“ D and C 74:3-4 says, “3.Now, verily I say unto you my servants, Joseph Smith Jun, and Sidney Rigdon, saith the Lord, it is expedient to translate again; 4.And, inasmuch as it is practicable, to preach in the regions round about until conference; and after that it is expedient to continue the work of Translation until it be finished.”
Notice that the Lord told them to do this work and to finish the work. Now add 1 Nephi 3:7 to this. “And it came to pass that I Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.“ When I talk to Mormons I will say, “You know how people have a favorite Bible verse? Well, I have a favorite verse in the B.O.M. and this is it.” You can use this verse when talking about how the Mormons need to be perfect and keep the whole law. Point out how this verse says that God will make it possible for them to be perfect and ask why they can’t seem to follow this logic.
Anyway, back to the J.S.T of the Bible. You might be able to back order a copy of the 1993-1994 Church Almanac from the local Mormon bookstore. On page 339, under 1833, July 2, it says, “The prophet Joseph Smith finished the Translation of the Bible.” In the 2003 Almanac on page 536, under 1883, July 2, it says, “The prophet Joseph Smith finished the Translation of the New Testament.” I believe that whatever year we happen to be in, you could buy an updated Almanac and find the year 1883, look under July 2, and it will say this. If it only says he finished the New Testament, try and get the 93-94 edition that says he finished the whole Bible. The reason why is that in the J.S.T. of the Bible, it says on page 10: “COMPLETION” POSSIBLY NOT FINAL. Then, on page 11 it says Mormon authors Sperry and Van Wagoner have pointed out that the Psalms are evidence of the incompleteness of the translation.
On page 258 of the book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1989 version, he says and I quote, “My feelings at the present time are that, inasmuch as the Lord Almighty has preserved me until today, He will continue to preserve me, by the united faith and prayers of the saints, until I have fully accomplished my mission in this life.” It appears that Joseph Smith was wrong, and he did not fully accomplish his mission. Part of his mission given by God in D and C was to finish the J.S.T. and it said right in there he did not finish the work. Point out that either Joseph Smith was a false prophet or God is a liar/failure for not keeping Joseph Smith alive to finish his job given by God Himself.
In the J.S.T. of the Bible, the first 24 pages talk about all this plus lots of other fun stuff to point out. I suggest buying a copy to use with the Mormon. Point out that in the D and C and the Church Almanac, Joseph Smith was told by God to finish it; in the B.O.M. says that God will grant you the ability to finish what he told you to do. But in the J.S.T., it teaches that it is not finished. So what is the deal - is it, or is it not? Also, they sell the J.S.T. in the local Mormon bookstore and the Mormon will admit that parts of the J.S.T. are found in the footnotes of the B.O.M. and D and C. Plus, a good portion of the P of GR P is the same as the J.S.T., yet they don’t carry it, pass it out, or use it.
The Mormon will say that the Reorganized Latter Day Saints own the rights to the J.S.T. and therefore, it is not trustworthy. I point out that it is kind of funny how they don’t trust the Bible because the Church fell into total apostasy, yet the Lord tells Joseph Smith to fix the Bible and then the Lord allows it to be re-corrupted by falling to the Reorganized Church? That makes zero sense. Also, why does the local Mormon bookstore sell it if you don’t use it? Something you can point out to the Mormon is that they don’t use the J.S.T because they feel it has been corrupted by the RLDS, yet it can be found within the footnotes of their books. Please tell me who decides which verses were good to use and which verses were corrupted? Therefore, you cannot use the rest.
Most of the time, it will get the Mormon thinking without a response, but you also will get a stupid response here and there. There are 13 Articles of Faith, and number 8 says, “We believe the Bible to be the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God.” Personally, I like to use the J.S.T. on the Mormon. What I tend to do is prepare ahead verses I know I will use with the Mormon and check them in the J.S.T. If they are not found in the J.S.T. that means Joseph Smith did not mess with them. Then, I bring up a verse to the Mormon in the K.J.V. I remind him that if he uses the J.S.T. in his footnotes and God told Joseph Smith to finish the book and your church claims he did finish it, then, due to the fact that Joseph Smith did not change it, there is an implication that God was fine with the way it was. Therefore, we now can go on to what the verse means. For example, the Mormons believe in grace plus works. In Romans 3:28 it says, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” (K.J.V.) Now in Romans 3:28 of the J.S.T. it says, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law.”
Here is a mistake that no one caught, but can work to your benefit. I call it a mistake because the Mormon believes in grace plus works, but also down in verse 16 in the J.S.T it teaches grace plus works. The J.S.T. contradicts itself in this area, so point out how the Mormon Church teaches works, yet according to God, works is wrong. Another one would be in Isaiah where there are lots of verses that teach God knows of no other Gods besides Him. In the J.S.T., these verses were never messed with, so you can point out that they were never touched, therefore they must mean what they say.
The Mormon Church teaches what is called the pre-existence. They believe we were spirits born in heaven and then when we were born into earth here, we were born forgetting the pre-existence. It is more in-depth than this, but this is just a simple form of it. The thing I like to point out to the Mormon is in Job where God says to Job, “Where were you when I created the heavens and earth and did all that was done?” Tell the Mormon Titus and Hebrews point out that God cannot lie. If we were really with God before being sent to earth, why did God not just say to Job, “Don’t you remember when I did all this since you were with me?”
For God to say, “Where were you?” implies we were not there, otherwise God lied which it is impossible for Him to do. The Mormon will usually say that the Bible says, “I knew you before you were formed.” You can respond however you want, but I respond by saying that it is like a carpenter who puts plans on paper to build a house. He knows what the house looks like, even though plans are on paper and it is not built.
Another question I like to ask the Mormon is: “If the gospel means good news and you say you believe the good news, then what exactly is the good news of your belief?” They have always told me that it is the fact that the Mormon Church has “Living Prophets” and new “ongoing” revelations. It could change depending on the Mormon, but that is generally what I am told. I will then point out that if they have no hope of salvation and they have hundreds of laws to keep how is this good. To help you out with this logic, you can go to this website: (www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/followingthebrethren.htm. If an error occurs here, go to www.utlm.org. This is the Tanners web site. You should be able to find the Fourteen Fundamentals in following the Prophet. They were given at Brigham Young University and by the former Mormon Prophet/President Ezra Taft Benson. I don't think any Mormon would argue with you if you show them these. All 14 give scripture - both ours (“The Bible”) and theirs - to back these statements up.
I won’t list all 14, but I will list the ones I like the best and use most often with the list of questions I ask. These are directly quoted:
FIRST: The Prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
SECOND: The living Prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
THIRD: The living Prophet is more important to us than a dead Prophet.
FOURTH: The Prophet will never lead the Church astray.
SIXTH: The Prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the lord”, to give us scripture.
ELEVENTH: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the Prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
FOURTEENTH: The Prophet and the presidency--the living Prophet and the first presidency--follow them and be blessed--reject them and suffer.
You can use these anyway you want or how you feel the Lord is leading you. Here are some ways I use these sayings from the prophet. Remember, I pointed out how the Prophet Joseph Smith taught that the B.O.M. is the keystone to their religion in H.C. 4:46. In the book Teachings, on page 71 Joseph Smith said, “Take away the book of Mormon and the revelations and where is our religion.” Then, according to number 2, you could just throw away the B.O.M. and listen to the Prophet. Then if the Mormon says, “Well that is nonsense add number 3 and say Joseph Smith might have been a Prophet but he is now dead and the living Prophet supersedes the dead one. Then add number 4 to it also and say remember the Prophet will not lead the Church astray.
Now another one I like to ask Mormons and even people like the “Mormon answer man” is found in the J.S.T. on page 10 under the heading “Completion” possibly not final. It goes on to say “The angel who visited Joseph Smith on the night of September 21, 1823, quoted the Prophet Malachi as follows”
“For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly shall burn as stubble, for they that cometh shall burn them saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch...
Behold, I will reveal unto you the priesthood by the hand of Elijah the Prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord...
And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers; if it were not so the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming.”
It goes on to say “This differs at important points from the King James Version of Malachi, but the Inspired Version is identical with the King James Version.” The above verse is from chapter 4 in Malachi. Now some of the problems we have is this. In both versions it says “Thus saith the Lord” implying God said so, so did God forget what he said, otherwise the angel misquoted what the Lord spoke but then that also is problem. The next option is Joseph wrote it down wrong but then that would mean 2 things, 1. He was not a true Prophet of God and 2, he failed in his mission according to both D and C 1:14 and D and C 74 and according to former president Ezra Taft Benson who gave the 14 fundamentals of following the brethren. I have shown this to many Mormons as of yet nobody can seem to give me an answer, they all just say I don’t know what to tell you. The other thing about all this also is Joseph Smith did not included the book of Malachi in the J.S.T. which would imply to me, that nothing was wrong with that book, Therefore how could it be misquoted? I say nothing was wrong with it because the reason it was “Fixed” the bible that is, by Joseph Smith was God told him the Bible had errors in it (A of F number 8). And only this misquoted verse appears in the book so it really makes no sense?
Now lets look at a couple of the really stupid stories in the B.O.M. I would not say to a Mormon these stories are really stupid, I would say how could the B.O.M. be truly inspired with stories like these in it. I might only point out these stories as the Mormon is getting ready to leave, just say here is one last thing to think about when you read your B.O.M. and come across these stories.
This is one story I just recently came across as I read through the B.O.M. Read Alma chapter 55 and I will just point out a few things in this story. First in the Word of Wisdom found in D and C chapter 89 it teaches a Mormon is not allowed to drink alcohol. Now you might think this is not a major doctrine so why bother, here is why. I have pointed out to the Mormon Jesus drank wine and turned water to wine before, and they just responded that it was non-alcoholic wine, in other words just grape juice. So I would point out how Jesus was accused of being a drunkard and you cannot get drunk off of non-alcoholic wine.
Now here is where it relates to the story in Alma 55. In Hebrews 13:8 it says 8:Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. In Moroni 10:19 it also teaches that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. But in Alma 55 we find that they were drinking wine to the point they got drunk, And this wine came from the Mormon prophet Moroni. Why can he drink wine but nobody else, This just tells me (my) God is a changing God.
Now more on this story is this. The Lamanites and Nephites were fighting each other and so the Nephites did not want to shed blood so they sent a few of there people over to the Lamanites camp pretending to be Lamanites and brought there wine and got them all drunk and when everybody was good and drunk they took them with out force.
Now to go along with a God who never changes lets add this. Black people today at one time were considered cursed by God and could never hold the priesthood. But later there was a revelation given by God that stated the blacks could hold the priesthood. This revelation was given in Salt Lake City in 1978,now this poses a problem? The problem is the black people are still black, and this implies they still have the mark of the curse. Yet we read in 3 Nephi 2:15 (And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites). Why would God lift the cursed skin from these people back then but not today? Since 1978 till today is about 25 years. The Scriptures teach nothing is impossible for God, but appears it is, and as I pointed out the God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. That would appear to be false also. Now for another good story. Read Ether 2:16-25
This story really makes God look stupid. In short the brother of Jared was told by God himself to build a barge, and it was built so airtight that the brother of Jared went back to God and said we have no light in side to see by and no air to breath. So then God tells him to drill a hole in the top and the bottom of the barge, then to put plugs in the hole to keep water from coming in. And God even states if you pull a plug and water comes in put the plug back in and pull the other plug instead, this implies water will come in.
I talked to a Mormon about this story once and pointed out how, if water comes in then it will displace air, therefore you will have less air to breath and eventually you will keep filling up with water to the point where it will sink or you will drown. Plus all the things in the ship will get destroyed by water. I pointed out how if you pull what you think is the plug up top implying you are upright and you pull it and water comes in then it means one of two things, you are either under water and therefore you would sink or you were turned upside down. And if you keep getting thrown about to the point where you cannot tell which way is up then you can or will be seriously hurt.
The response I received from the Mormon is (Rick) you just don’t understand fully what you just read. I really believe this is a good story to show how the B.O.M. cannot be inspired by God it really makes him look stupid. Ok now lets move on to things found in the B.O.M.
We will look at a few things you can point out and say did this really happen or how can this book be truly inspired with things like this in it. Just in about half of the book of Mormon I put together a list of around 110 things either really stupid or that are Christian theology taken from the bible that Mormon's deny like the trinity, or saved by grace alone. I will not list everything so it would be best if you go through and read it and put together your own list. A lot of what is listed is only parts of a verse to say on space and time, please read for context before pointing this stuff out to the Mormon. Nothing is twisted or taken out of context, I just do not want to make an entire book here so it is easier to just list the part I want to focus on.
1 Nephi 1:2: The Jews use the language of the Egyptians.
1 Nephi 1:8: And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he THOUGHT HE SAW GOD sitting upon his throne.
How can you say I thought I saw god? You either did or did not.
1 Nephi 16:18: And it came to pass that as I Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine steel.
How can you break a bow made of fine steel? You could take cheap steel and beat it over a rock or on something very hard and try as you might you will have a really hard time trying to break it. Also if you have a bow you will do all you can not to use it in such a way as to possibly break it in such a careless manor.
Enos 20: They ate raw meat.
Every body knows Gold, Diamonds and Pearls are rare therefore most precious but have you ever heard of ZIFF as a precious metal.
Mosiah 11:8: Ziff (a precious thing) king Noah used. To this day it has never been heard of or found. It must be really precious and rare to still be undiscovered.
Alma 10:4-9: First the guy (Amulek) in this story says in verses 5:Never the less after all this I never have known much of the ways of the Lord, and his mysteries and marvelous power. I say I never had known much of these things; but behold; I mistake, for I have seen much of his mysteries and his marvelous power.
So which is it? Then it goes on to say that Amulek admits he openly rebelled against God and is living in rebellion to Him. Then God sends and Angel to him telling him I will use you this day to feed a Prophet of God. That would be like God speaking to Charles Mansion and saying I will use you this day to feed Billy Graham.
Now in Alma 10:17: This same Amulek who just admitted he was rebelling against God, so we know it is not an Angel in the form of a man or God himself in the form of a man goes on in verse 17 to say he (Amulek) perceived their thoughts. How can a mortal man know your thoughts or read your mind so to speak. Only God can do this. It is not stated that God gave him the power to do so. In case a Mormon says this is the reason it happened.
Alma 13:18: Claims Melchizedek had a Father, this denies the Bible.
Alma 19:29: Jesus is mentioned but the date is B.C. 90. The reason why this is mentioned is because Jesus took the queen by the hand and lifted her up. But there are many verses that talk about the “Coming” in the future time of Jesus. So is he coming or is he here already?
Alma 21:6: We do believe God will save ALL men. Well they believe wrong because we know not all men will be saved. The B.O.M. even teaches some will go to hell?
Alma 24:19: And thus we see that they buried their weapons of peace, or they buried the weapons of war, for peace. Which is it?
Now the Mormon most likely will respond as if you are just attacking their church. I suggest responding along these lines. In the P of GR P., under Joseph Smith 2:18-19, it says, “18:My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right and which I should join.19: I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the personage who addressed me said that ALL THEIR CREEDS WERE AN ABOMINATION IN HIS SIGHT; THAT THOSE PROFESSORS WERE ALL CORRUPT; THAT THEY DRAW NEAR TO ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEARTS ARE FAR FROM ME, THEY TEACH FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN, HAVING A FORM OF GODLINESS, BUT THEY DENY THE POWER THEREOF.”
In verse 17 it is God the Father and the Son speaking about the state of the Christian Church to Joseph Smith. We are not attacking, we are just responding to Joseph Smith’s statement about our church. Also, read to the Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10: “And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the lamb of god, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of God belongeth to the great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth”.
The LDS church teaches that if we do not belong to the Latter Day Saint’s church, then we belong to the church of the devil and are the whore of all the earth. This is a strong statement from a group of people saying they never attack any other beliefs and they are upset we are defending ourselves. Read also “Church of the Devil”, pg. 137; Christendom and Christian Era, pg. 131; and Christians and Christianity, pg. 132, all in Mormon Doctrine. Then read under “First Vision”, page 285-286 in Mormon doctrine. These all give really good descriptions of how Christians are viewed by the Mormon church. If they accuse us of attacking the Mormon Church, they better read up in their own books.
Joseph Smith said the B.O.M. is “the keystone to our religion” H.C. 4:46. He also said, “Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion?” on pg. 71 in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. So if we show their foundation is built on sand and their belief is unstable, then we can proceed to show them the rock upon which the true church is built and the corner stone is Jesus Christ.
The Mormons believe in grace plus works. An example you can use is: If you were on a beach that had a lifeguard and you were swimming then started to drown, a lifeguard would not just run out and try to save you. Otherwise, in your panic you could kill both the lifeguard and yourself. He will wait until you tire out and start to go down. We cannot kill or pull down Jesus who is our lifeguard, but we could say our screaming and thrashing is our works. They really cannot do anything to save us, they will just tire us out, and we will drown and die. If we call out for the lifeguard “Jesus” to save us, he will, but not while we try to do it ourselves. You can give other ideas and do a bible study and teach the Mormon about grace plus works. This was just one example I like to use.
Something the Mormon might say is that you are only pointing out the apparent bad things in our church and you never point out the good things. If this happens then politely point out that you agree with the Mormon Church on the issues like, marriage is good, homosexuality is a sin, theft is a sin, murder is a sin, ect. Point out a few things you know you agree on and say something like, “See, we agree on some things.” But then point out these good things cannot save you. What happens if you believe many good things yet are wrong on who Jesus is? You may also go from here to wherever you left off.
A question I am asked a lot is, do the Mormons use a normal bible like believers or do they have there own bible like the JW’S? The answer is yes and no. Yes, because they use the K.J.V and it is the same as we use. The only difference would be is that they have Mormon footnotes that we don’t believe in. The no part is that they do have what is called the Joseph Smith’s “New Translation” of the Bible. Here is another good chance to open a talk. This subject is one I use with people like the “Mormon Answer Man.“ D and C 74:3-4 says, “3.Now, verily I say unto you my servants, Joseph Smith Jun, and Sidney Rigdon, saith the Lord, it is expedient to translate again; 4.And, inasmuch as it is practicable, to preach in the regions round about until conference; and after that it is expedient to continue the work of Translation until it be finished.”
Notice that the Lord told them to do this work and to finish the work. Now add 1 Nephi 3:7 to this. “And it came to pass that I Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.“ When I talk to Mormons I will say, “You know how people have a favorite Bible verse? Well, I have a favorite verse in the B.O.M. and this is it.” You can use this verse when talking about how the Mormons need to be perfect and keep the whole law. Point out how this verse says that God will make it possible for them to be perfect and ask why they can’t seem to follow this logic.
Anyway, back to the J.S.T of the Bible. You might be able to back order a copy of the 1993-1994 Church Almanac from the local Mormon bookstore. On page 339, under 1833, July 2, it says, “The prophet Joseph Smith finished the Translation of the Bible.” In the 2003 Almanac on page 536, under 1883, July 2, it says, “The prophet Joseph Smith finished the Translation of the New Testament.” I believe that whatever year we happen to be in, you could buy an updated Almanac and find the year 1883, look under July 2, and it will say this. If it only says he finished the New Testament, try and get the 93-94 edition that says he finished the whole Bible. The reason why is that in the J.S.T. of the Bible, it says on page 10: “COMPLETION” POSSIBLY NOT FINAL. Then, on page 11 it says Mormon authors Sperry and Van Wagoner have pointed out that the Psalms are evidence of the incompleteness of the translation.
On page 258 of the book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1989 version, he says and I quote, “My feelings at the present time are that, inasmuch as the Lord Almighty has preserved me until today, He will continue to preserve me, by the united faith and prayers of the saints, until I have fully accomplished my mission in this life.” It appears that Joseph Smith was wrong, and he did not fully accomplish his mission. Part of his mission given by God in D and C was to finish the J.S.T. and it said right in there he did not finish the work. Point out that either Joseph Smith was a false prophet or God is a liar/failure for not keeping Joseph Smith alive to finish his job given by God Himself.
In the J.S.T. of the Bible, the first 24 pages talk about all this plus lots of other fun stuff to point out. I suggest buying a copy to use with the Mormon. Point out that in the D and C and the Church Almanac, Joseph Smith was told by God to finish it; in the B.O.M. says that God will grant you the ability to finish what he told you to do. But in the J.S.T., it teaches that it is not finished. So what is the deal - is it, or is it not? Also, they sell the J.S.T. in the local Mormon bookstore and the Mormon will admit that parts of the J.S.T. are found in the footnotes of the B.O.M. and D and C. Plus, a good portion of the P of GR P is the same as the J.S.T., yet they don’t carry it, pass it out, or use it.
The Mormon will say that the Reorganized Latter Day Saints own the rights to the J.S.T. and therefore, it is not trustworthy. I point out that it is kind of funny how they don’t trust the Bible because the Church fell into total apostasy, yet the Lord tells Joseph Smith to fix the Bible and then the Lord allows it to be re-corrupted by falling to the Reorganized Church? That makes zero sense. Also, why does the local Mormon bookstore sell it if you don’t use it? Something you can point out to the Mormon is that they don’t use the J.S.T because they feel it has been corrupted by the RLDS, yet it can be found within the footnotes of their books. Please tell me who decides which verses were good to use and which verses were corrupted? Therefore, you cannot use the rest.
Most of the time, it will get the Mormon thinking without a response, but you also will get a stupid response here and there. There are 13 Articles of Faith, and number 8 says, “We believe the Bible to be the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God.” Personally, I like to use the J.S.T. on the Mormon. What I tend to do is prepare ahead verses I know I will use with the Mormon and check them in the J.S.T. If they are not found in the J.S.T. that means Joseph Smith did not mess with them. Then, I bring up a verse to the Mormon in the K.J.V. I remind him that if he uses the J.S.T. in his footnotes and God told Joseph Smith to finish the book and your church claims he did finish it, then, due to the fact that Joseph Smith did not change it, there is an implication that God was fine with the way it was. Therefore, we now can go on to what the verse means. For example, the Mormons believe in grace plus works. In Romans 3:28 it says, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” (K.J.V.) Now in Romans 3:28 of the J.S.T. it says, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law.”
Here is a mistake that no one caught, but can work to your benefit. I call it a mistake because the Mormon believes in grace plus works, but also down in verse 16 in the J.S.T it teaches grace plus works. The J.S.T. contradicts itself in this area, so point out how the Mormon Church teaches works, yet according to God, works is wrong. Another one would be in Isaiah where there are lots of verses that teach God knows of no other Gods besides Him. In the J.S.T., these verses were never messed with, so you can point out that they were never touched, therefore they must mean what they say.
The Mormon Church teaches what is called the pre-existence. They believe we were spirits born in heaven and then when we were born into earth here, we were born forgetting the pre-existence. It is more in-depth than this, but this is just a simple form of it. The thing I like to point out to the Mormon is in Job where God says to Job, “Where were you when I created the heavens and earth and did all that was done?” Tell the Mormon Titus and Hebrews point out that God cannot lie. If we were really with God before being sent to earth, why did God not just say to Job, “Don’t you remember when I did all this since you were with me?”
For God to say, “Where were you?” implies we were not there, otherwise God lied which it is impossible for Him to do. The Mormon will usually say that the Bible says, “I knew you before you were formed.” You can respond however you want, but I respond by saying that it is like a carpenter who puts plans on paper to build a house. He knows what the house looks like, even though plans are on paper and it is not built.
Another question I like to ask the Mormon is: “If the gospel means good news and you say you believe the good news, then what exactly is the good news of your belief?” They have always told me that it is the fact that the Mormon Church has “Living Prophets” and new “ongoing” revelations. It could change depending on the Mormon, but that is generally what I am told. I will then point out that if they have no hope of salvation and they have hundreds of laws to keep how is this good. To help you out with this logic, you can go to this website: (www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/followingthebrethren.htm. If an error occurs here, go to www.utlm.org. This is the Tanners web site. You should be able to find the Fourteen Fundamentals in following the Prophet. They were given at Brigham Young University and by the former Mormon Prophet/President Ezra Taft Benson. I don't think any Mormon would argue with you if you show them these. All 14 give scripture - both ours (“The Bible”) and theirs - to back these statements up.
I won’t list all 14, but I will list the ones I like the best and use most often with the list of questions I ask. These are directly quoted:
FIRST: The Prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
SECOND: The living Prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
THIRD: The living Prophet is more important to us than a dead Prophet.
FOURTH: The Prophet will never lead the Church astray.
SIXTH: The Prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the lord”, to give us scripture.
ELEVENTH: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the Prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
FOURTEENTH: The Prophet and the presidency--the living Prophet and the first presidency--follow them and be blessed--reject them and suffer.
You can use these anyway you want or how you feel the Lord is leading you. Here are some ways I use these sayings from the prophet. Remember, I pointed out how the Prophet Joseph Smith taught that the B.O.M. is the keystone to their religion in H.C. 4:46. In the book Teachings, on page 71 Joseph Smith said, “Take away the book of Mormon and the revelations and where is our religion.” Then, according to number 2, you could just throw away the B.O.M. and listen to the Prophet. Then if the Mormon says, “Well that is nonsense add number 3 and say Joseph Smith might have been a Prophet but he is now dead and the living Prophet supersedes the dead one. Then add number 4 to it also and say remember the Prophet will not lead the Church astray.
Now another one I like to ask Mormons and even people like the “Mormon answer man” is found in the J.S.T. on page 10 under the heading “Completion” possibly not final. It goes on to say “The angel who visited Joseph Smith on the night of September 21, 1823, quoted the Prophet Malachi as follows”
“For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly shall burn as stubble, for they that cometh shall burn them saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch...
Behold, I will reveal unto you the priesthood by the hand of Elijah the Prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord...
And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers; if it were not so the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming.”
It goes on to say “This differs at important points from the King James Version of Malachi, but the Inspired Version is identical with the King James Version.” The above verse is from chapter 4 in Malachi. Now some of the problems we have is this. In both versions it says “Thus saith the Lord” implying God said so, so did God forget what he said, otherwise the angel misquoted what the Lord spoke but then that also is problem. The next option is Joseph wrote it down wrong but then that would mean 2 things, 1. He was not a true Prophet of God and 2, he failed in his mission according to both D and C 1:14 and D and C 74 and according to former president Ezra Taft Benson who gave the 14 fundamentals of following the brethren. I have shown this to many Mormons as of yet nobody can seem to give me an answer, they all just say I don’t know what to tell you. The other thing about all this also is Joseph Smith did not included the book of Malachi in the J.S.T. which would imply to me, that nothing was wrong with that book, Therefore how could it be misquoted? I say nothing was wrong with it because the reason it was “Fixed” the bible that is, by Joseph Smith was God told him the Bible had errors in it (A of F number 8). And only this misquoted verse appears in the book so it really makes no sense?
Now lets look at a couple of the really stupid stories in the B.O.M. I would not say to a Mormon these stories are really stupid, I would say how could the B.O.M. be truly inspired with stories like these in it. I might only point out these stories as the Mormon is getting ready to leave, just say here is one last thing to think about when you read your B.O.M. and come across these stories.
This is one story I just recently came across as I read through the B.O.M. Read Alma chapter 55 and I will just point out a few things in this story. First in the Word of Wisdom found in D and C chapter 89 it teaches a Mormon is not allowed to drink alcohol. Now you might think this is not a major doctrine so why bother, here is why. I have pointed out to the Mormon Jesus drank wine and turned water to wine before, and they just responded that it was non-alcoholic wine, in other words just grape juice. So I would point out how Jesus was accused of being a drunkard and you cannot get drunk off of non-alcoholic wine.
Now here is where it relates to the story in Alma 55. In Hebrews 13:8 it says 8:Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. In Moroni 10:19 it also teaches that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. But in Alma 55 we find that they were drinking wine to the point they got drunk, And this wine came from the Mormon prophet Moroni. Why can he drink wine but nobody else, This just tells me (my) God is a changing God.
Now more on this story is this. The Lamanites and Nephites were fighting each other and so the Nephites did not want to shed blood so they sent a few of there people over to the Lamanites camp pretending to be Lamanites and brought there wine and got them all drunk and when everybody was good and drunk they took them with out force.
Now to go along with a God who never changes lets add this. Black people today at one time were considered cursed by God and could never hold the priesthood. But later there was a revelation given by God that stated the blacks could hold the priesthood. This revelation was given in Salt Lake City in 1978,now this poses a problem? The problem is the black people are still black, and this implies they still have the mark of the curse. Yet we read in 3 Nephi 2:15 (And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites). Why would God lift the cursed skin from these people back then but not today? Since 1978 till today is about 25 years. The Scriptures teach nothing is impossible for God, but appears it is, and as I pointed out the God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. That would appear to be false also. Now for another good story. Read Ether 2:16-25
This story really makes God look stupid. In short the brother of Jared was told by God himself to build a barge, and it was built so airtight that the brother of Jared went back to God and said we have no light in side to see by and no air to breath. So then God tells him to drill a hole in the top and the bottom of the barge, then to put plugs in the hole to keep water from coming in. And God even states if you pull a plug and water comes in put the plug back in and pull the other plug instead, this implies water will come in.
I talked to a Mormon about this story once and pointed out how, if water comes in then it will displace air, therefore you will have less air to breath and eventually you will keep filling up with water to the point where it will sink or you will drown. Plus all the things in the ship will get destroyed by water. I pointed out how if you pull what you think is the plug up top implying you are upright and you pull it and water comes in then it means one of two things, you are either under water and therefore you would sink or you were turned upside down. And if you keep getting thrown about to the point where you cannot tell which way is up then you can or will be seriously hurt.
The response I received from the Mormon is (Rick) you just don’t understand fully what you just read. I really believe this is a good story to show how the B.O.M. cannot be inspired by God it really makes him look stupid. Ok now lets move on to things found in the B.O.M.
We will look at a few things you can point out and say did this really happen or how can this book be truly inspired with things like this in it. Just in about half of the book of Mormon I put together a list of around 110 things either really stupid or that are Christian theology taken from the bible that Mormon's deny like the trinity, or saved by grace alone. I will not list everything so it would be best if you go through and read it and put together your own list. A lot of what is listed is only parts of a verse to say on space and time, please read for context before pointing this stuff out to the Mormon. Nothing is twisted or taken out of context, I just do not want to make an entire book here so it is easier to just list the part I want to focus on.
1 Nephi 1:2: The Jews use the language of the Egyptians.
1 Nephi 1:8: And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he THOUGHT HE SAW GOD sitting upon his throne.
How can you say I thought I saw god? You either did or did not.
1 Nephi 16:18: And it came to pass that as I Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine steel.
How can you break a bow made of fine steel? You could take cheap steel and beat it over a rock or on something very hard and try as you might you will have a really hard time trying to break it. Also if you have a bow you will do all you can not to use it in such a way as to possibly break it in such a careless manor.
Enos 20: They ate raw meat.
Every body knows Gold, Diamonds and Pearls are rare therefore most precious but have you ever heard of ZIFF as a precious metal.
Mosiah 11:8: Ziff (a precious thing) king Noah used. To this day it has never been heard of or found. It must be really precious and rare to still be undiscovered.
Alma 10:4-9: First the guy (Amulek) in this story says in verses 5:Never the less after all this I never have known much of the ways of the Lord, and his mysteries and marvelous power. I say I never had known much of these things; but behold; I mistake, for I have seen much of his mysteries and his marvelous power.
So which is it? Then it goes on to say that Amulek admits he openly rebelled against God and is living in rebellion to Him. Then God sends and Angel to him telling him I will use you this day to feed a Prophet of God. That would be like God speaking to Charles Mansion and saying I will use you this day to feed Billy Graham.
Now in Alma 10:17: This same Amulek who just admitted he was rebelling against God, so we know it is not an Angel in the form of a man or God himself in the form of a man goes on in verse 17 to say he (Amulek) perceived their thoughts. How can a mortal man know your thoughts or read your mind so to speak. Only God can do this. It is not stated that God gave him the power to do so. In case a Mormon says this is the reason it happened.
Alma 13:18: Claims Melchizedek had a Father, this denies the Bible.
Alma 19:29: Jesus is mentioned but the date is B.C. 90. The reason why this is mentioned is because Jesus took the queen by the hand and lifted her up. But there are many verses that talk about the “Coming” in the future time of Jesus. So is he coming or is he here already?
Alma 21:6: We do believe God will save ALL men. Well they believe wrong because we know not all men will be saved. The B.O.M. even teaches some will go to hell?
Alma 24:19: And thus we see that they buried their weapons of peace, or they buried the weapons of war, for peace. Which is it?
Friday, March 02, 2007
Witnessing tips. Part1
I wrote a little booklet a few years ago, I felt the Lord leading me to do it, and I have since passed it out to lots of people. I am breaking it down into 3 parts and posting it here. Please feel free to print it up and pass it around as needed. Once all three parts are posted you can simply print them and have a little booklet to use. Rick b
The Lord has called me to witness to Mormons. I have been studying Mormonism for around 6-7 years. It has been awesome how the Lord has blessed me and the talks I have had with Mormons. I feel like the Lord has spoken to my heart to put together some information for making it easier for the average person to witness to Mormons. Remember, we need to witness to Mormons to fulfill the Great Commission to make disciples of all men.
Over all, I do not claim to know everything. I feel you should spend time seeking the Lord as to how He would have each person speak to a Mormon and how to go about doing it. The purpose of this booklet is simple. I have read many books on how to witness to Mormons or books about Mormonism written by Christians. Many of the books I have read are very good and full of helpful hints. The only problem I see with most of these books is that they quote from books that most Mormons or Christians will never get their hands on, so it makes it harder to witness to Mormons. I felt lead, after much prayer, for more opportunity to help witness to Mormons. That is how this booklet came to be.
These tips will be simple and easier ways to share with Mormons. It will be done with the books most Mormons and Christians can or do have. For the people who have the rare and hard to find books like the Journal of Discourses. I will share things I have encountered so as to help you avoid the same problems I did, therefore, one less barrier to get through.
I will give a list of books that will be quoted from and the abbreviations that will be used thereafter:
Journal of Discourses --J.O.D.
Articles of Faith--A.of F.
Book of Mormon--B.O.M.
King James Version--K.J.V.
Doctrine and Covenants--D and C
Pearl of Great Price--P of GR P
Miracle of Forgiveness--Miracle
Joseph Smith’s “New Translation” of the Bible--J.S.T.
Now please allow me to explain what is meant by the phrase “some books make it harder to a certain degree to witness”. Mormon prophets of old taught things like the Adam-God doctrine or blood atonement. Bringham Young taught Adam from the Garden of Eden was and is our god. Bringham Young also taught blood atonement. This means the blood of Jesus was not enough to cleanse us of certain sins, so you needed to shed your own blood. It can be proven they did indeed teach these and other bizarre things and make a good case stating why it was not just the Mormon prophet’s mere opinion. The average Christian could not prove these things, and the average Mormon is not aware of these teachings. It is good that people put these things out for us to see and research, but as far as using these books to witness, they do not always help or work for you when you do not have the original sources to quote.
In all fairness, if a person of any given religion, or even a non-believer, came up to a Christian and said, “I heard your church teaches this, that or the other thing“, and you never heard of this before, you would ask for proof. If they either say, “Well, I read it in a book,” or “I heard it on a tape or video,” and the person that supposedly spoke this was opposed to Christianity or was not a believer, you would say that person has no idea what they are talking about, and it will get nowhere for either person involved. If this is the case, then let’s grant the Mormon the same respect as we would want. They also say, “show me these things” or “I never heard of it before.” Most likely, they have never been taught these things, or the church will act like the doctrines were never taught.
The Mormon is taught that all books speaking out against Mormonism are anti-Mormon material and will want nothing to do with them. To help further your talks, unless you have the original books quoted from, like the J.O.D, to show them, it is best not to even mention it. It is a really good idea not to mention the names of so-called anti-Mormons, because if you do, the Mormon will think you are not thinking for yourself. They believe that you are reading anti-Mormon literature, then trying to use it to attack them and their beliefs.
I believe there are main issues in witnessing we need to stay focused on, such as: who is Jesus, the trinity, the nature of God, ect. But there can and will be times where you will have a couple of talks with the same Mormons. I had one Mormon come over 4 different times. Two other times he could not make it, so he sent someone else. Then, there are websites like the “Mormon Answer Man“. I try to go to websites like these and ask questions. You can read over questions already asked. Most likely, the questions like “Who is Jesus?” and “What is the nature of God?” have been asked. If you know the things found in the B.O.M., you can ask questions about things that don’t line up. I like to go to web sites like this as a chance to witness by asking hard questions that will get the Mormon thinking. If they get posted, then other people can think about them. I will point out questions that I ask to make Mormons think later in this booklet.
I know of some ex-Mormons, though not personally, that I have on books or tapes, that feel you can witness to Mormons just using their books. I agree. What most Christians don’t know is that Joseph Smith plagiarized the Bible and took many verses or whole passages from it and put them in the B.O.M. This is one reason why so many nominal believers convert to Mormonism. When they read the B.O.M., they feel they have read this or this sounds familiar. What is good about using the B.O.M. to witness with is that there is so much Christian doctrine in the B.O.M. Even though there is no power, because it is not the true Word of God, you can show them things and point out how it lines up with what we believe and how it goes against what Mormons believe.
I have heard many people (believers), go back and forth on this issue - “Should I read the B.O.M and use it as a tool to witness?” First and foremost, pray and ask God what He would have you do on this issue. My opinion is that you should read it to help in witnessing to Mormons, as long as you have a good handle on God’s true Word first. This is why I believe this: If a person came up to you and said the Bible is a false book, full of error, and I do not believe it is of God, the first question most Christians would ask is “Have you read it?” If the person said, “No,” then you would ask, “How can you say it is wrong and full of error if you never read it?”
If this is the case, then how come we cannot except this answer when a Mormon says this to us? Granted, as a believer we know it to be a false book. Still, we seem to think we can say that to someone, but no one can say it to us. The other reason I believe we should read the B.O.M. is because the Mormons likely will not talk to you if you say you haven’t read it. If you do, however, then you are past this one argument and can talk further with them. Also, if someone says it would be a waste of time to read the B.O.M. because it is a false book, I would like to add that many believers spend much time watching TV sitcoms or movies that are very degrading to women or the faith. It is not my place to judge what you watch, but if you can justify time spent for TV then why not to help better witness to a lost and dying Mormon. Another thing to remember also is that people like Dr. Walter Martin and John Ankerberg were never Mormons, yet in their research they read the B.O.M. and quote from it in their books. You go out and buy their books and read quotes from the B.O.M. and use them in witnessing or even just to better understand the Mormon, so what is the difference if you read it or let someone else read it then tell you what is in it?
Then you could also tell them you prayed about it and the Lord said it is a false book. You can use this to your benefit by saying, “I prayed about it and now can you show me where in the K.J.V. it says to pray about the B.O.M. being true.” When you ask this question, the Mormon will most likely take you to James 1:5 and tell you this is the verse that says pray about the B.O.M. Use this chance to show them what the verse really says. Then, add to it James 3:16 and point out there is wisdom that is earthly, sensual, demonic. You could point out that perhaps Joseph Smith was following this wisdom.
So now you avoided them leaving by just reading the book and then were able to show them some good bible verses. Then say, “Not only does the Bible not teach to pray about any book, but Acts 17:11 says to search the scriptures.” Then, for the best part, point out how the B.O.M. also teaches that we need to search the scriptures. You can quote to the Mormon: Alma 14:1, Alma 17:2, and Alma 33:2. To make it even more fun, add D and C 1:14 “and the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people”.
I love that verse because you can point out that the Mormon apostles and the Lord himself said SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES! If you choose not to do that, then you will be cut off. Add one more for even more fun- D and C 131:6 says, “for it is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance”. Point out if you don’t search the scriptures and don’t know what they teach, then you are ignorant and cannot be saved. This can open a door to serious bible study. The only problem is that most Mormon Missionaries really don’t have much time. If you are blessed, the 2-3 hours you spend with them might be the only chance you will have.
Most people don’t know this, but if you challenge a Mormon and he goes back to his stake president, they will move him on to a new area. People get mad and think the Mormon is blowing them off when this is not the case. But if you choose to use these verses from the B.O.M., then I suggest you read the book. If you do not read it, but you quote from it, then the Mormon asks if have you ever read the B.O.M. and you say no, then they might not want to talk because they will say or think you read anti-Mormon books and just take verses out of context and twist scripture. So let’s be fair here also. If someone comes to us and they have the Bible and quote a verse from it, but admit they never read the whole book, we will say to them, “You are just misquoting scripture.”
When I pointed out that there are passages of the Bible in the B.O.M., there is no point in trying to prove plagiarism. They could say that there are verses that are the same in other books of the Bible so it does not prove anything. They might also say that the prophets are quoting from that book and point out that Jesus quoted from other books. To go along with the Mormon praying about the B.O.M., he/she might say the B.O.M. is just another testament of Jesus Christ. Point out that the Bible is really 66 books by 40 different authors not just one book as some people think, or two books if they feel the Old and New Testament are two books. So we don’t need another testament as Mormons teach.
I suggest buying 2 books: Mormon doctrine by Bruce r. McConkie and the Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer Kimball. Mormon Doctrine is 856 pages from A to Z of many things that Mormons believe, similar to an encyclopedia. Mormons will not give a full meaning of terms even if you ask. Let’s say you asked a Mormon who Jesus is, they would say He is the Son of God, yet they believe He is the spirit-brother to Lucifer. Unless you know this and say that you know the Mormon church says this is who Jesus is, they will not openly admit it.
By their lack of defining terms, they sound very Christian. Let’s look at it like this:
Christian: You are a sinner in need of a Savior. That Savior is Jesus Christ and He died for you so you could be saved.
Mormon: Yes, I agree 100 percent.
Christian: Who is Jesus?
Mormon: He is the only begotten of the Father, born of a virgin, lived a sinless life and died for my sins.
You can get them by asking if they believe in the trinity. They do deny the trinity, so that is a starting point where you do not need to have terms defined. For the most part, the Mormon will not tell you that he believes, or the church teaches, that Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers, Mary and God the Father had a sexual union to conceive Jesus, and she is not really a virgin. In fact, most Mormons are not aware of this teaching. But here are some sources that both Mormons and Christians have or can get access to. Page 466-467 of A.of F. says, “Jesus Christ is the son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, elohim is literally the father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed his mission in the flesh.” This is the 1982 missionary edition.
Then, read pg. 546-547 in Mormon Doctrine under ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. “Christ was begotten by an immortal father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers”. As every parent knows, the only way you can have kids is through a sexual union. Now, take the Mormon to pg. 743 in Mormon Doctrine. Point out to them that this is the same book and same author and show them “SON OF MARY”. It says, and I quote, “Mary was the mother of the Son of God after the manner of the flesh.... She was carried away in the spirit was overshadowed and conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost.” Ask them which it is. Did the Father sleep with Mary or did the Holy Ghost overshadow her?
A few things can happen here. The author of the A.of F. is James Talmage, a very highly respected scholar of Mormonism. You can point out how he and Bruce agree in one area, yet in another they disagree or contradict each other. Also, if God the Father did sleep with Mary and He was not married to her, then that is a sin. Yet, if he was married to her and she was married to Joseph, then that makes them polygamists. Mormons feel this is a sin. The B.O.M. also teaches this is an abomination in God’s sight, so we have a problem. Show the Mormon Jacob 2:22-35. For our purposes, I will just quote verse 24: “behold David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was ABOMINABLE before me, saith the Lord.” Then remind them again about D and C 1:14.
You can now take them to the Bible and point out John 8:41 the Pharisees accused Jesus of being born through fornication. This would be true if God the Father really did have sex with Mary and take it from here. Now point out to the Mormon the book Miracle of Forgiveness. A lot of good things can go on from here. Let me first point out that the Mormon has no true assurance of salvation and the Mormon believes in grace plus works after all we can do. In D and C 82:7 it says, “and now verily I say unto you, I the Lord will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.”
But point out Jeremiah 31:34c, “I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” So what is the deal? God says in the B.O.M. your sin will return, but in the bible He says I will remember them no more. Ask the Mormon, “Do you want the Lord to remember your sin or forget your sin? Let me add also in case it comes up, a lot of Mormons today do not agree with or like Bruce McConkie. They might give you a list of reasons why they don’t trust him or like him. If they do this, then point out that in Bruce’s day he was a very well respected APOSTLE. Point out that most likely the Mormon you are speaking with is not on the same level as an APOSTLE or have not written books like him. Point out also in D and C 1:14 it says to listen to the APOSTLES or they will be cut off for not doing so.
Now Spencer Kimball adds to this on pg. 170 of Miracle of Forgiveness, he says and I quote, “to return to sin is most destructive to the morale of the individual and gives Satan another hand hold on his victim. Those who feel that they can sin and be forgiven and then return to sin and be forgiven again and again must straighten out their thinking. Each previously forgiven sin is added to the new one and the whole gets to be a heavy load”. Simply put, if you get angry and that is a sin, then you ask for forgiveness. Then, later you get angry again, then the former sin of being angry is put upon you. This will go on forever.
This logic is very sad because the Mormon is under heavy bondage and are never truly forgiven. I would point out, “How can this book be called MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS?” Truly it is a miracle if you are forgiven, and it appears you can never be forgiven. Use this chance to study the Bible with the Mormon and show them scriptures such as 1st John 1:9; then show them Titus 1:2 and tell them that it teaches God cannot lie; then point out Hebrews 6:18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie. Now point out to them Matthew 18:21-35 about how to forgive. If this is God telling us how to forgive one another, how much more will and does He forgive us? Point out 2 Corinthians 6:2 where God is speaking and He says, “now is the day of salvation.” Point out to the Mormon that if today is our day of salvation as God states, then we can know with total assurance we are and have been forgiven.
Now back to Miracle - one thing you can point out, depending on how your talks go, is as follows: Spencer Kimball considers transgression a sin, if this is true then we have a problem. Mormons feel that the fall of Adam was a good thing and was ordained by God to happen. Yet in Miracle, Spencer Kimball states that transgression is a sin. In the B.O.M., in 2 Nephi 2:19-25, it states that Adam transgressed (verse 22). And in verse 25 it says that “Adam fell that men might be and men are that they might have joy.” Why would God say sin is good? It would appear as if God deceived Adam by telling him not to eat of the tree or he would die. Yet God wants them to eat or they could not truly be set free! Is this how God works?
I feel this is probably the best one to show a Mormon and could really get them thinking. It concerns Joseph Smith murdering 2 people.
Pg. 127 in Miracle says, “The murderer denies himself salvation in the celestial kingdom, and in this sense he cannot be forgiven for his crime”. On pg. 128, the prophet Joseph Smith teaches “a murderer, for instance, one that sheds innocent blood, cannot have forgiveness”. On pg. 131, Spencer goes on to teach “This is the case with murderers. They could not be baptized for the remission of sins, for they had shed innocent blood.” He goes on to say “TO THE CHURCH MEMBERS THE WORD IS CLEAR“, then he quotes from D and C 42:18, which says, “And now, behold I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come”.
Then he quotes from D and C 42:79, saying, “And it shall come to pass, that if any persons among you shall kill they shall be delivered up and dealt with according to the laws of the land; for remember that he hath no forgiveness; and it shall be proved according to the laws of the land.” Here is the best part show the Mormon - D and C 135:4 says, “WHEN JOSEPH WENT TO CARTHAGE TO DELIVER HIMSELF UP TO THE PRETENDED REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW, TWO OR THREE DAYS PREVIOUS TO HIS ASSASSINATION, HE SAID I AM GOING LIKE A LAMB TO THE SLAUGHTER; BUT I AM CALM AS A SUMMERS MORNING; I HAVE A CONSCIENCE VOID OF OFFENCE TOWARDS GOD AND TOWARDS ALL MEN. I SHALL DIE INNOCENT, AND IT SHALL YET BE SAID OF ME HE WAS MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD”.
Notice that Joseph believes he is like Jesus being led to the cross. Now bring the Mormon to D and C 135:7. Here it says Joseph was innocent of any crime and his innocent blood was shed. Bring them to D and C 135:1 where it says “To seal the testimony of this book and the book of Mormon, we announce the martyrdom of Joseph Smith the prophet.” Then down farther in verse 1 it says Joseph Smith tried to jump out of the window in the jail. Point out to the Mormon that if Joseph Smith was truly a martyr as Jesus was, he would not have tried to escape. But now for the best part.
Read History of the Church, Volume 7, pg. 102-103. My copy is the 1978 edition. I am sure anybody can still buy History of the Church to show them this passage. I quote from History: “I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countance of brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and leaning over him exclaimed OH! My poor dear brother Hyrum! He however instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step and a determined expression of countenance approached the door, and pulling the six shooter left by brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed, died. I had in my hands a large strong hickory stick, brought there by brother Markham, and left by him, which I had seized as soon as I saw the mob approach; and while brother Joseph was firing the pistol, I stood close behind him.”
Would a true martyr fight back? No, this does not line up with Joseph saying he is without offence towards God when he killed two people. It also shows he was not lead to the slaughter. It shows a bit of a surprise by his actions proving he did not know it was coming, and Joseph was surprised his brother was killed. If they truly new they were going to be martyred, why was Joseph surprised by the death of his brother?
Some Mormons might say, “Well, he was only defending himself, if so, point out Jesus could have called legions of angels, yet he did not. Jesus never said anything to the people, where Joseph tried to kill and did kill two. If he was a true prophet called by God, then we have a problem. Joseph and Spencer Kimball taught no forgiveness for the murderer. You can really open a talk here.
The Lord has called me to witness to Mormons. I have been studying Mormonism for around 6-7 years. It has been awesome how the Lord has blessed me and the talks I have had with Mormons. I feel like the Lord has spoken to my heart to put together some information for making it easier for the average person to witness to Mormons. Remember, we need to witness to Mormons to fulfill the Great Commission to make disciples of all men.
Over all, I do not claim to know everything. I feel you should spend time seeking the Lord as to how He would have each person speak to a Mormon and how to go about doing it. The purpose of this booklet is simple. I have read many books on how to witness to Mormons or books about Mormonism written by Christians. Many of the books I have read are very good and full of helpful hints. The only problem I see with most of these books is that they quote from books that most Mormons or Christians will never get their hands on, so it makes it harder to witness to Mormons. I felt lead, after much prayer, for more opportunity to help witness to Mormons. That is how this booklet came to be.
These tips will be simple and easier ways to share with Mormons. It will be done with the books most Mormons and Christians can or do have. For the people who have the rare and hard to find books like the Journal of Discourses. I will share things I have encountered so as to help you avoid the same problems I did, therefore, one less barrier to get through.
I will give a list of books that will be quoted from and the abbreviations that will be used thereafter:
Journal of Discourses --J.O.D.
Articles of Faith--A.of F.
Book of Mormon--B.O.M.
King James Version--K.J.V.
Doctrine and Covenants--D and C
Pearl of Great Price--P of GR P
Miracle of Forgiveness--Miracle
Joseph Smith’s “New Translation” of the Bible--J.S.T.
Now please allow me to explain what is meant by the phrase “some books make it harder to a certain degree to witness”. Mormon prophets of old taught things like the Adam-God doctrine or blood atonement. Bringham Young taught Adam from the Garden of Eden was and is our god. Bringham Young also taught blood atonement. This means the blood of Jesus was not enough to cleanse us of certain sins, so you needed to shed your own blood. It can be proven they did indeed teach these and other bizarre things and make a good case stating why it was not just the Mormon prophet’s mere opinion. The average Christian could not prove these things, and the average Mormon is not aware of these teachings. It is good that people put these things out for us to see and research, but as far as using these books to witness, they do not always help or work for you when you do not have the original sources to quote.
In all fairness, if a person of any given religion, or even a non-believer, came up to a Christian and said, “I heard your church teaches this, that or the other thing“, and you never heard of this before, you would ask for proof. If they either say, “Well, I read it in a book,” or “I heard it on a tape or video,” and the person that supposedly spoke this was opposed to Christianity or was not a believer, you would say that person has no idea what they are talking about, and it will get nowhere for either person involved. If this is the case, then let’s grant the Mormon the same respect as we would want. They also say, “show me these things” or “I never heard of it before.” Most likely, they have never been taught these things, or the church will act like the doctrines were never taught.
The Mormon is taught that all books speaking out against Mormonism are anti-Mormon material and will want nothing to do with them. To help further your talks, unless you have the original books quoted from, like the J.O.D, to show them, it is best not to even mention it. It is a really good idea not to mention the names of so-called anti-Mormons, because if you do, the Mormon will think you are not thinking for yourself. They believe that you are reading anti-Mormon literature, then trying to use it to attack them and their beliefs.
I believe there are main issues in witnessing we need to stay focused on, such as: who is Jesus, the trinity, the nature of God, ect. But there can and will be times where you will have a couple of talks with the same Mormons. I had one Mormon come over 4 different times. Two other times he could not make it, so he sent someone else. Then, there are websites like the “Mormon Answer Man“. I try to go to websites like these and ask questions. You can read over questions already asked. Most likely, the questions like “Who is Jesus?” and “What is the nature of God?” have been asked. If you know the things found in the B.O.M., you can ask questions about things that don’t line up. I like to go to web sites like this as a chance to witness by asking hard questions that will get the Mormon thinking. If they get posted, then other people can think about them. I will point out questions that I ask to make Mormons think later in this booklet.
I know of some ex-Mormons, though not personally, that I have on books or tapes, that feel you can witness to Mormons just using their books. I agree. What most Christians don’t know is that Joseph Smith plagiarized the Bible and took many verses or whole passages from it and put them in the B.O.M. This is one reason why so many nominal believers convert to Mormonism. When they read the B.O.M., they feel they have read this or this sounds familiar. What is good about using the B.O.M. to witness with is that there is so much Christian doctrine in the B.O.M. Even though there is no power, because it is not the true Word of God, you can show them things and point out how it lines up with what we believe and how it goes against what Mormons believe.
I have heard many people (believers), go back and forth on this issue - “Should I read the B.O.M and use it as a tool to witness?” First and foremost, pray and ask God what He would have you do on this issue. My opinion is that you should read it to help in witnessing to Mormons, as long as you have a good handle on God’s true Word first. This is why I believe this: If a person came up to you and said the Bible is a false book, full of error, and I do not believe it is of God, the first question most Christians would ask is “Have you read it?” If the person said, “No,” then you would ask, “How can you say it is wrong and full of error if you never read it?”
If this is the case, then how come we cannot except this answer when a Mormon says this to us? Granted, as a believer we know it to be a false book. Still, we seem to think we can say that to someone, but no one can say it to us. The other reason I believe we should read the B.O.M. is because the Mormons likely will not talk to you if you say you haven’t read it. If you do, however, then you are past this one argument and can talk further with them. Also, if someone says it would be a waste of time to read the B.O.M. because it is a false book, I would like to add that many believers spend much time watching TV sitcoms or movies that are very degrading to women or the faith. It is not my place to judge what you watch, but if you can justify time spent for TV then why not to help better witness to a lost and dying Mormon. Another thing to remember also is that people like Dr. Walter Martin and John Ankerberg were never Mormons, yet in their research they read the B.O.M. and quote from it in their books. You go out and buy their books and read quotes from the B.O.M. and use them in witnessing or even just to better understand the Mormon, so what is the difference if you read it or let someone else read it then tell you what is in it?
Then you could also tell them you prayed about it and the Lord said it is a false book. You can use this to your benefit by saying, “I prayed about it and now can you show me where in the K.J.V. it says to pray about the B.O.M. being true.” When you ask this question, the Mormon will most likely take you to James 1:5 and tell you this is the verse that says pray about the B.O.M. Use this chance to show them what the verse really says. Then, add to it James 3:16 and point out there is wisdom that is earthly, sensual, demonic. You could point out that perhaps Joseph Smith was following this wisdom.
So now you avoided them leaving by just reading the book and then were able to show them some good bible verses. Then say, “Not only does the Bible not teach to pray about any book, but Acts 17:11 says to search the scriptures.” Then, for the best part, point out how the B.O.M. also teaches that we need to search the scriptures. You can quote to the Mormon: Alma 14:1, Alma 17:2, and Alma 33:2. To make it even more fun, add D and C 1:14 “and the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people”.
I love that verse because you can point out that the Mormon apostles and the Lord himself said SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES! If you choose not to do that, then you will be cut off. Add one more for even more fun- D and C 131:6 says, “for it is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance”. Point out if you don’t search the scriptures and don’t know what they teach, then you are ignorant and cannot be saved. This can open a door to serious bible study. The only problem is that most Mormon Missionaries really don’t have much time. If you are blessed, the 2-3 hours you spend with them might be the only chance you will have.
Most people don’t know this, but if you challenge a Mormon and he goes back to his stake president, they will move him on to a new area. People get mad and think the Mormon is blowing them off when this is not the case. But if you choose to use these verses from the B.O.M., then I suggest you read the book. If you do not read it, but you quote from it, then the Mormon asks if have you ever read the B.O.M. and you say no, then they might not want to talk because they will say or think you read anti-Mormon books and just take verses out of context and twist scripture. So let’s be fair here also. If someone comes to us and they have the Bible and quote a verse from it, but admit they never read the whole book, we will say to them, “You are just misquoting scripture.”
When I pointed out that there are passages of the Bible in the B.O.M., there is no point in trying to prove plagiarism. They could say that there are verses that are the same in other books of the Bible so it does not prove anything. They might also say that the prophets are quoting from that book and point out that Jesus quoted from other books. To go along with the Mormon praying about the B.O.M., he/she might say the B.O.M. is just another testament of Jesus Christ. Point out that the Bible is really 66 books by 40 different authors not just one book as some people think, or two books if they feel the Old and New Testament are two books. So we don’t need another testament as Mormons teach.
I suggest buying 2 books: Mormon doctrine by Bruce r. McConkie and the Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer Kimball. Mormon Doctrine is 856 pages from A to Z of many things that Mormons believe, similar to an encyclopedia. Mormons will not give a full meaning of terms even if you ask. Let’s say you asked a Mormon who Jesus is, they would say He is the Son of God, yet they believe He is the spirit-brother to Lucifer. Unless you know this and say that you know the Mormon church says this is who Jesus is, they will not openly admit it.
By their lack of defining terms, they sound very Christian. Let’s look at it like this:
Christian: You are a sinner in need of a Savior. That Savior is Jesus Christ and He died for you so you could be saved.
Mormon: Yes, I agree 100 percent.
Christian: Who is Jesus?
Mormon: He is the only begotten of the Father, born of a virgin, lived a sinless life and died for my sins.
You can get them by asking if they believe in the trinity. They do deny the trinity, so that is a starting point where you do not need to have terms defined. For the most part, the Mormon will not tell you that he believes, or the church teaches, that Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers, Mary and God the Father had a sexual union to conceive Jesus, and she is not really a virgin. In fact, most Mormons are not aware of this teaching. But here are some sources that both Mormons and Christians have or can get access to. Page 466-467 of A.of F. says, “Jesus Christ is the son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, elohim is literally the father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed his mission in the flesh.” This is the 1982 missionary edition.
Then, read pg. 546-547 in Mormon Doctrine under ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. “Christ was begotten by an immortal father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers”. As every parent knows, the only way you can have kids is through a sexual union. Now, take the Mormon to pg. 743 in Mormon Doctrine. Point out to them that this is the same book and same author and show them “SON OF MARY”. It says, and I quote, “Mary was the mother of the Son of God after the manner of the flesh.... She was carried away in the spirit was overshadowed and conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost.” Ask them which it is. Did the Father sleep with Mary or did the Holy Ghost overshadow her?
A few things can happen here. The author of the A.of F. is James Talmage, a very highly respected scholar of Mormonism. You can point out how he and Bruce agree in one area, yet in another they disagree or contradict each other. Also, if God the Father did sleep with Mary and He was not married to her, then that is a sin. Yet, if he was married to her and she was married to Joseph, then that makes them polygamists. Mormons feel this is a sin. The B.O.M. also teaches this is an abomination in God’s sight, so we have a problem. Show the Mormon Jacob 2:22-35. For our purposes, I will just quote verse 24: “behold David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was ABOMINABLE before me, saith the Lord.” Then remind them again about D and C 1:14.
You can now take them to the Bible and point out John 8:41 the Pharisees accused Jesus of being born through fornication. This would be true if God the Father really did have sex with Mary and take it from here. Now point out to the Mormon the book Miracle of Forgiveness. A lot of good things can go on from here. Let me first point out that the Mormon has no true assurance of salvation and the Mormon believes in grace plus works after all we can do. In D and C 82:7 it says, “and now verily I say unto you, I the Lord will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.”
But point out Jeremiah 31:34c, “I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” So what is the deal? God says in the B.O.M. your sin will return, but in the bible He says I will remember them no more. Ask the Mormon, “Do you want the Lord to remember your sin or forget your sin? Let me add also in case it comes up, a lot of Mormons today do not agree with or like Bruce McConkie. They might give you a list of reasons why they don’t trust him or like him. If they do this, then point out that in Bruce’s day he was a very well respected APOSTLE. Point out that most likely the Mormon you are speaking with is not on the same level as an APOSTLE or have not written books like him. Point out also in D and C 1:14 it says to listen to the APOSTLES or they will be cut off for not doing so.
Now Spencer Kimball adds to this on pg. 170 of Miracle of Forgiveness, he says and I quote, “to return to sin is most destructive to the morale of the individual and gives Satan another hand hold on his victim. Those who feel that they can sin and be forgiven and then return to sin and be forgiven again and again must straighten out their thinking. Each previously forgiven sin is added to the new one and the whole gets to be a heavy load”. Simply put, if you get angry and that is a sin, then you ask for forgiveness. Then, later you get angry again, then the former sin of being angry is put upon you. This will go on forever.
This logic is very sad because the Mormon is under heavy bondage and are never truly forgiven. I would point out, “How can this book be called MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS?” Truly it is a miracle if you are forgiven, and it appears you can never be forgiven. Use this chance to study the Bible with the Mormon and show them scriptures such as 1st John 1:9; then show them Titus 1:2 and tell them that it teaches God cannot lie; then point out Hebrews 6:18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie. Now point out to them Matthew 18:21-35 about how to forgive. If this is God telling us how to forgive one another, how much more will and does He forgive us? Point out 2 Corinthians 6:2 where God is speaking and He says, “now is the day of salvation.” Point out to the Mormon that if today is our day of salvation as God states, then we can know with total assurance we are and have been forgiven.
Now back to Miracle - one thing you can point out, depending on how your talks go, is as follows: Spencer Kimball considers transgression a sin, if this is true then we have a problem. Mormons feel that the fall of Adam was a good thing and was ordained by God to happen. Yet in Miracle, Spencer Kimball states that transgression is a sin. In the B.O.M., in 2 Nephi 2:19-25, it states that Adam transgressed (verse 22). And in verse 25 it says that “Adam fell that men might be and men are that they might have joy.” Why would God say sin is good? It would appear as if God deceived Adam by telling him not to eat of the tree or he would die. Yet God wants them to eat or they could not truly be set free! Is this how God works?
I feel this is probably the best one to show a Mormon and could really get them thinking. It concerns Joseph Smith murdering 2 people.
Pg. 127 in Miracle says, “The murderer denies himself salvation in the celestial kingdom, and in this sense he cannot be forgiven for his crime”. On pg. 128, the prophet Joseph Smith teaches “a murderer, for instance, one that sheds innocent blood, cannot have forgiveness”. On pg. 131, Spencer goes on to teach “This is the case with murderers. They could not be baptized for the remission of sins, for they had shed innocent blood.” He goes on to say “TO THE CHURCH MEMBERS THE WORD IS CLEAR“, then he quotes from D and C 42:18, which says, “And now, behold I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come”.
Then he quotes from D and C 42:79, saying, “And it shall come to pass, that if any persons among you shall kill they shall be delivered up and dealt with according to the laws of the land; for remember that he hath no forgiveness; and it shall be proved according to the laws of the land.” Here is the best part show the Mormon - D and C 135:4 says, “WHEN JOSEPH WENT TO CARTHAGE TO DELIVER HIMSELF UP TO THE PRETENDED REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW, TWO OR THREE DAYS PREVIOUS TO HIS ASSASSINATION, HE SAID I AM GOING LIKE A LAMB TO THE SLAUGHTER; BUT I AM CALM AS A SUMMERS MORNING; I HAVE A CONSCIENCE VOID OF OFFENCE TOWARDS GOD AND TOWARDS ALL MEN. I SHALL DIE INNOCENT, AND IT SHALL YET BE SAID OF ME HE WAS MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD”.
Notice that Joseph believes he is like Jesus being led to the cross. Now bring the Mormon to D and C 135:7. Here it says Joseph was innocent of any crime and his innocent blood was shed. Bring them to D and C 135:1 where it says “To seal the testimony of this book and the book of Mormon, we announce the martyrdom of Joseph Smith the prophet.” Then down farther in verse 1 it says Joseph Smith tried to jump out of the window in the jail. Point out to the Mormon that if Joseph Smith was truly a martyr as Jesus was, he would not have tried to escape. But now for the best part.
Read History of the Church, Volume 7, pg. 102-103. My copy is the 1978 edition. I am sure anybody can still buy History of the Church to show them this passage. I quote from History: “I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countance of brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and leaning over him exclaimed OH! My poor dear brother Hyrum! He however instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step and a determined expression of countenance approached the door, and pulling the six shooter left by brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed, died. I had in my hands a large strong hickory stick, brought there by brother Markham, and left by him, which I had seized as soon as I saw the mob approach; and while brother Joseph was firing the pistol, I stood close behind him.”
Would a true martyr fight back? No, this does not line up with Joseph saying he is without offence towards God when he killed two people. It also shows he was not lead to the slaughter. It shows a bit of a surprise by his actions proving he did not know it was coming, and Joseph was surprised his brother was killed. If they truly new they were going to be martyred, why was Joseph surprised by the death of his brother?
Some Mormons might say, “Well, he was only defending himself, if so, point out Jesus could have called legions of angels, yet he did not. Jesus never said anything to the people, where Joseph tried to kill and did kill two. If he was a true prophet called by God, then we have a problem. Joseph and Spencer Kimball taught no forgiveness for the murderer. You can really open a talk here.
Thursday, February 22, 2007
Is baptism required for salvation?
My next topic will be the issue of, Are we saved by baptism?
Below is a teaching taken from the LDS.org website, given by Brigham Young. Please read it over, then I will address some issues from it.
Lets now review what Brigham Young said and taught.
First he said
All these things taught by the Prophet Brigham Young are false. You cannot find any of this taught in Gods Word, You will find this taught in the Bible.
Those verses from the Word of God show, Baptism does not remove our Sin, only the Blood of Jesus Christ can take away our sin.
Brigham Young goes on to say
Yet again, we are told/taught by Brigham Young to obey the laws in order to be saved, this is simply not taught in the Bible, But here again we read this in Scripture.
Notice Jesus said this, Not me. Now Lets re-word part of it this way, the Bible says, the People came to Jesus and said, So lets instead say, The LDS Prophets and Presidents came to Jesus and said, John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
The LDS said, Works, (Plural) More than one work, as they Love works and require works for salvation.
Yet Jesus replies with, John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Notice Jesus says (Work) Singular, one work, that is to Believe on the One God hath sent, Jesus is the One God Sent. If we love Jesus and God we will keep His commandments and that is simply to believe.
Now let me also ask this,
Do you know ALL His commandments - could you write them out for me please? I don't think you can, and if you don't know them all then you cannot fulfill all the laws and command's. That is the problem of works you must always continue but never make it.
Now Brigham Young goes on to say
In order to be saved you must be baptized? The reason why this is a big deal is this, What about all the People who on their death bed confess Christ, according to the Bible they will be saved, Yet not according to Mormonism, because they were not baptized.
If I were a Mormon Missionary, and I was Honest and up front in giving out the LDS gospel to a dying person, I would have to say, sorry I cannot preach the Gospel to you, or I have no good news to give you, because while the Bible says, Salvation comes by confession, you need to add the Mormon Gospel which teaches works, entering the temple and needing to be baptized first. Sadly your about to die and cannot do this. Where is the Love and grace in this godless religion?
Lets look at what the Bible teaches.
See these verses so that if we call upon the name of the Lord and confess our sins, we shall be forgiven, no mention of, if we were dying we can not be forgiven.
Brigham Young said
If this is true, then why do we not read any accounts of Jesus or the Apostles ever once saying, In order to be saved, you must be baptized. Then in the Bible I read accounts of Jesus not baptizing, and the apostle Paul claiming Jesus did not send him to baptize.
I read in these verses, no mention of needing to be baptized to be saved.
Let me end with this, Brigham Young and many other LDS teach in order to be saved, WE MUST OBEY ALL OF GODS LAW'S. If this is true, why are we told to be baptized to be saved when this is not taught as a law, But yet Brigham young, D and C and God supposedly gave the LDS law's like Polygamy, D and C 132, or Adam God and Blood atonement, Blacks not allowed to hold the priesthood, Word of Wisdom, and things such as this, that Brigham Young very clearly stated, these are laws given to him by god himself and you will be damned for not obeying. Seems the LDS pick and choose what laws they will obey and what laws they will deny. Rick b
Below is a teaching taken from the LDS.org website, given by Brigham Young. Please read it over, then I will address some issues from it.
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young
Repentance and Baptism
“Chapter 9: Repentance and Baptism,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, 61
On a cold, snowy day in April 1832, Brigham Young was baptized in the icy waters of his own millstream by Eleazer Miller, a four-month convert to the Church. Of this he said, “I felt a humble, childlike spirit, witnessing unto me that my sins were forgiven” (MHBY-1, 2–3). He taught that water itself does not have “any virtue to wash away sin” (DBY, 159) but that baptism is effective in cleansing us from sin when administered by those in authority to those who are accountable and when preceded by repentance and followed by sincere effort to honor baptismal covenants.
Teachings of Brigham Young
As our understanding increases, so do our accountability and responsibility.
Sin consists in doing wrong when we know and can do better, and it will be punished with a just retribution, in the due time of the Lord (DBY, 156).
Though we may do the best we know how at this time, can there be no improvement made in our lives? There can. If we do wrong ignorantly, when we learn it is wrong, then it is our duty to refrain from that wrong immediately and for ever (DBY, 156).
We can make the Atonement effective in our lives through sincere repentance.
If I have injured any person, I ought to confess to that person and make right what I did wrong (DBY, 158).
I believe in coming out and being plain and honest with that which should be made public, and in keeping to yourselves that which should be kept. … Tell to the public that which belongs to the public. If you have sinned against the people, confess to them. If you have sinned against a family or a neighborhood, go to them and confess. … If you have sinned against one individual, take that person by yourselves and make your confession to him (DBY, 158).
When men truly and heartily repent, and make manifest to the heavens that their repentance is genuine by obedience to the requirements made known to them through the laws of the Gospel, then are they entitled to the administration of salvation, and no power can withhold the good spirit from them (DBY, 156).
Some of our old traditions teach us that a man guilty of atrocious and murderous acts may savingly repent when on the scaffold; and upon his execution will hear the expression, “Bless God! he has gone to heaven, to be crowned in glory, through the all-redeeming merits of Christ the Lord.” This is all nonsense. Such a character never will see heaven. Some will pray, “O that I had passed through the veil on the night of my conversion!” This proves the false ideas and vain notions entertained by the Christian world (DBY, 157).
Baptism is an essential ordinance for our salvation.
We, the Latter-day Saints, believe in being baptized by immersion for the remission of sins, according to the testimony of the disciples of Jesus and the revelations of the Lord given in these last days. Infants are pure, they have neither sorrow of heart, nor sins to repent of and forsake, and consequently are incapable of being baptized for the remission of sin. If we have sinned, we must know good from evil; an infant does not know this, it cannot know it; it has not grown into the idea of contemplation of good and evil; it has not the capacity to listen to the parent or teacher or to the priest when they tell what is right or wrong or what is injurious; and until these things are understood a person cannot be held accountable and consequently cannot be baptized for the remission of sin [see Moroni 8] (DBY, 158–59).
There is no ordinance that God has delivered by his own voice, through his Son Jesus Christ, or by the mouths of any of his Prophets, Apostles or Evangelists, that is useless. Every ordinance, every commandment and requirement is necessary for the salvation of the human family (DBY, 152).
If you have been righteous from your birth up, and have never committed known sins and transgressions, be baptized to fulfill all righteousness, as Jesus was. If you can say you have no sins to repent of, forsake your false theories, and love and serve God with an undivided heart (DBY, 159).
All Latter-day Saints enter the new and everlasting covenant when they enter this Church. They covenant to cease sustaining, upholding and cherishing the kingdom of the Devil and the kingdoms of this world. They enter the new and everlasting covenant to sustain the Kingdom of God and no other kingdom. They take a vow of the most solemn kind, before the heavens and earth, and that, too, upon the validity of their own salvation, that they will sustain truth and righteousness instead of wickedness and falsehood, and build up the Kingdom of God, instead of the kingdoms of this world (DBY, 160).
However much we may profess attachment to God and his cause we are not entitled to the blessings and privileges of his Kingdom until we become citizens therein. How can we do this? By repenting of our sins, and obeying the requirements of the Gospel of the Son of God which has been delivered to us. Hundreds and thousands of people have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and repented of their sins, and have had the Holy Spirit to witness unto them that God is love, that they loved him and that he loved them, and yet they are not in his Kingdom. They have not complied with the necessary requirements, they have not entered in at the door (DBY, 152–53).
You have not the power to baptize yourselves, neither have you power to resurrect yourselves; and you could not legally baptize a second person for the remission of sins until some person first baptized you and ordained you to this authority (DBY, 160).
Has water, in itself, any virtue to wash away sin? Certainly not; but the Lord says, “If the sinner will repent of his sins, and go down into the waters of baptism, and there be buried in the likeness of being put into the earth and buried, and again be delivered from the water, in the likeness of being born—if in the sincerity of his heart he will do this, his sins shall be washed away.” [See D&C 128:12–13.] Will the water of itself wash them away? No; but keeping the commandments of God will cleanse away the stain of sin (DBY, 159).
Suggestions for Study
As our understanding increases, so do our accountability and responsibility.
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• How did President Young define sin? (See also James 4:17.)
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• What did President Young teach about our responsibility as we increase in knowledge of right and wrong? (See also 2 Nephi 9:25–27.)
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• What should be our attitude about improving our lives? (See also Alma 34:33.) What does this teach us about knowledge, accountability, and responsibility?
We can make the Atonement effective in our lives through sincere repentance.
*
• What is the consequence of true repentance? Why is obedience to the laws of the gospel a necessary part of repentance?
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• What did President Young teach about deathbed repentance?
Baptism is an essential ordinance for our salvation.
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• What part does baptism play in coming unto Christ? (See also Moroni 8:25–26.)
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• What did President Young teach about who should and should not be baptized? Why is it inappropriate to baptize those who are not accountable? (See also Moroni 8:9–14.) What did President Young say to accountable people who say they have no sin?
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• President Young taught that all the ordinances of the gospel, including baptism, are necessary for our salvation. How have the ordinances of the gospel blessed your life?
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• President Young taught that “all Latter-day Saints enter the new and everlasting covenant when they enter this Church.” When we are baptized, what do we covenant to do? What do we covenant to refrain from doing? (See also Mosiah 18:8–10.)
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• Why is believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and loving Him not enough alone to enter in at the door of His kingdom?
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• Why must one be “ordained … to this authority” to baptize?
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• According to President Young, what is the significance and symbolism of baptism? (See also Romans 6:3–6, 11; Moses 6:58–60; 1 John 5:7–8.) President Young explained that “water, in itself, [has not] any virtue to wash away sin.” What will cleanse us from sin?
Lets now review what Brigham Young said and taught.
First he said
He taught that water itself does not have “any virtue to wash away sin” (DBY, 159) but that baptism is effective in cleansing us from sin when administered by those in authority to those who are accountable and when preceded by repentance and followed by sincere effort to honor baptismal covenants.
We, the Latter-day Saints, believe in being baptized by immersion for the remission of sins, according to the testimony of the disciples of Jesus and the revelations of the Lord given in these last days.
You have not the power to baptize yourselves, neither have you power to resurrect yourselves; and you could not legally baptize a second person for the remission of sins until some person first baptized you and ordained you to this authority (DBY, 160).
Has water, in itself, any virtue to wash away sin? Certainly not; but the Lord says, “If the sinner will repent of his sins, and go down into the waters of baptism, and there be buried in the likeness of being put into the earth and buried, and again be delivered from the water, in the likeness of being born—if in the sincerity of his heart he will do this, his sins shall be washed away.” [See D&C 128:12–13.] Will the water of itself wash them away? No; but keeping the commandments of God will cleanse away the stain of sin (DBY, 159).
All these things taught by the Prophet Brigham Young are false. You cannot find any of this taught in Gods Word, You will find this taught in the Bible.
1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Those verses from the Word of God show, Baptism does not remove our Sin, only the Blood of Jesus Christ can take away our sin.
Brigham Young goes on to say
When men truly and heartily repent, and make manifest to the heavens that their repentance is genuine by obedience to the requirements made known to them through the laws of the Gospel, then are they entitled to the administration of salvation, and no power can withhold the good spirit from them (DBY, 156).
Yet again, we are told/taught by Brigham Young to obey the laws in order to be saved, this is simply not taught in the Bible, But here again we read this in Scripture.
John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
John 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
John 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
John 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Notice Jesus said this, Not me. Now Lets re-word part of it this way, the Bible says, the People came to Jesus and said, So lets instead say, The LDS Prophets and Presidents came to Jesus and said, John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
The LDS said, Works, (Plural) More than one work, as they Love works and require works for salvation.
Yet Jesus replies with, John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Notice Jesus says (Work) Singular, one work, that is to Believe on the One God hath sent, Jesus is the One God Sent. If we love Jesus and God we will keep His commandments and that is simply to believe.
Now let me also ask this,
Do you know ALL His commandments - could you write them out for me please? I don't think you can, and if you don't know them all then you cannot fulfill all the laws and command's. That is the problem of works you must always continue but never make it.
Now Brigham Young goes on to say
Some of our old traditions teach us that a man guilty of atrocious and murderous acts may savingly repent when on the scaffold; and upon his execution will hear the expression, “Bless God! he has gone to heaven, to be crowned in glory, through the all-redeeming merits of Christ the Lord.” This is all nonsense. Such a character never will see heaven. Some will pray, “O that I had passed through the veil on the night of my conversion!” This proves the false ideas and vain notions entertained by the Christian world (DBY, 157).
Baptism is an essential ordinance for our salvation.
In order to be saved you must be baptized? The reason why this is a big deal is this, What about all the People who on their death bed confess Christ, according to the Bible they will be saved, Yet not according to Mormonism, because they were not baptized.
If I were a Mormon Missionary, and I was Honest and up front in giving out the LDS gospel to a dying person, I would have to say, sorry I cannot preach the Gospel to you, or I have no good news to give you, because while the Bible says, Salvation comes by confession, you need to add the Mormon Gospel which teaches works, entering the temple and needing to be baptized first. Sadly your about to die and cannot do this. Where is the Love and grace in this godless religion?
Lets look at what the Bible teaches.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
See these verses so that if we call upon the name of the Lord and confess our sins, we shall be forgiven, no mention of, if we were dying we can not be forgiven.
Brigham Young said
Baptism is an essential ordinance for our salvation.
If this is true, then why do we not read any accounts of Jesus or the Apostles ever once saying, In order to be saved, you must be baptized. Then in the Bible I read accounts of Jesus not baptizing, and the apostle Paul claiming Jesus did not send him to baptize.
John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
John 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,).
1Cr 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Cr 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Cr 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Cr 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Act 16:27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
Act 16:28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
Act 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
I read in these verses, no mention of needing to be baptized to be saved.
Let me end with this, Brigham Young and many other LDS teach in order to be saved, WE MUST OBEY ALL OF GODS LAW'S. If this is true, why are we told to be baptized to be saved when this is not taught as a law, But yet Brigham young, D and C and God supposedly gave the LDS law's like Polygamy, D and C 132, or Adam God and Blood atonement, Blacks not allowed to hold the priesthood, Word of Wisdom, and things such as this, that Brigham Young very clearly stated, these are laws given to him by god himself and you will be damned for not obeying. Seems the LDS pick and choose what laws they will obey and what laws they will deny. Rick b
Tuesday, February 13, 2007
An Email question I recived.
Below is a question I recived via E-mail. I answer all E-mail questions. I removed the Persons last name and E-mail Address. First is His question then my reply. I am posting this in hopes that it will help someone with the same type of question, We are still talking and he is still asking other questions. I think it is great to be used by God like this.
Dear Mister Rick
Im a 20 year old portuguese student and I've discovered today your blog through the Mormon Coffee Blog.
Im a child of God, according to John 1:12.
I've accepted Jesus in my heart when I was 12 and since then, I've been growing in His Word, the Holy Bible.
I'm an active member of my Protestant Evangelical church and I also take part of the "sacrement" (I'm not sure if it's called that way in english when you eat and drink the bread and wine representing Jesus' Body and Blood.)
I'm sorry for taking your time, but I have an important question to ask you.
In October 2006, two missionaries knocked at my dor. They told me about the restauration (again, not sure if this is the right word ;] ) of the Gospel, the profet Joseph Smith and their church, the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS.
Since that day, I've been spending a lot of time not only with the missionaries, but also with many members of their church.
The reason that made me receive those missionaries at my house is that I love to talk about Jesus and my faith.
At the first meeting they gave me the Book of Mormon, which I'm trying to read every time I can.
Their deal was in simple words "read this, pray about it, get the answer of the Holy Spirit and get baptized".
So they asked me if I would want to mark a day in the calendar for my baptism, so it would be a proof of faith, and my answer would come easier.
Logically I declined the offer. I would never commit myself for baptism if I wouldnt be sure God would be leading me that way.
As our meetings became inumerous, I realized how far their doctrines were from the one's I had been taught, and how really a "big deal" it would be to become a member of their church.
So far, they talked about many subjects such as "Many Gods", "Baptism of the Dead", "Salvation with works", "Eternal Marriage" etc, etc...
But there are some reasons that made me keep on meeting with them. I've noticed some things in their church that I do not see in mine:
1. One only doctrine (in Portugal we have a LOT of evangelical churches with different doctirnes like "the Assembly of God", "Pentecostal", "Baptists", "Metodists"...)
2. The members' friendship, example and devotion
3. An impressive Missionary work
And also the though "If the Book of Mormom is wrong, where and how did it came from?"
But the most important issue for me is their teaching about how the Bible was corrupted in the sixth century, taking as the Book of Mormon says "some precious parts out of it".
So till now, they couldn't impress me with biblical proof, but... And here comes my question:
How can I know that the Bible is 100%, with every single letter, correct?
I would really be gratetful if you could somehow give me a breef comment about my issue, but if you don't have the time, I understand it.
I hope God may bless you*
Your brother Marvin
This was my answer to him,
Hello Marvin,
You were asking about how you can know if the Bible is really Gods word. Let me point out a few verses about what the Bible says about it's self. Let me add also, Mormons or people in general might say, well if the Bible says something about it's self how can it be trusted.
First off, the Bible is 66 books written by 40 different authors over 1000's of years. So lets read these verses here.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Here in John 1, it tells us, the Word is God. But Who is the Word? The Word is Jesus, because we know Jesus is God. Now if Jesus is the Word and we read in Psalm 138:2 that God places His Word above His name,
Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy loving kindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
And we know that God according to the Ten Commandments takes His name very seriously and we will be held accountable for taking it in vain, then He is even more serious about His word. So if the Word is God, then we can and Should be able to trust it.
Something I believe the Mormons have not seriously thought about is this, They will tell you According to A. of F. 8 the Bible is the Word of God in so far as it is translated correctly. Then they will go on to say, But the Book of Mormon is THE WORD OF GOD.
Yet they never point out to anyone that their are around 4,000 changes to the Book of Mormon. So if the want to use A. of F. 8 then I suggest they either re-word it to say Both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are trustworthy and are the Word of God, or neither can be trusted, or simply remove it all together, Yet I believe the LDS are being dishonest by knowing this and not saying anything. Lets add to that, the LDS have a copy of what is Called the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible, Sadly they never use it. Oh they will tell you they do, And really they only use it as footnotes in the Book of Mormon. I did an in depth article on my Blog about that issue. Briefly, Joseph Smith "Corrected" the Problems in the Bible as God commanded him to do by way of Revelation in the Doctrine and covenants, So why don't the LDS pass that out and carry it with them?
We read in the Bible Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Notice they did not pray for truth, they searched the Scriptures. Have you ever noticed, Jesus and the Apostles Quoted from OT prophets and sources, They talk about Moses, King David, Enoch, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob And many others. Notice Jesus and the Apostles never quote from the Book of Mormon Prophets, I have to wonder why? I say it is because the Book of Mormon is not real. Their is an account of the Tower of Babel in the Book of Mormon, and time lines in the Book of Mormon Place some events to times to around 4,000 plus years ago, if these are real, why did Jesus Not quote them.
Then add to that, the Hall of Faith in the Book of Hebrews, Chapter 11, Not one Book of Mormon person ever mentioned in the Hebrews hall of Faith, Again I ask, Why? I believe this is evidence to Prove the Bible is real and the Book of Mormon is false.
A few more Bible verses, John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
I have read all 4 standard works by the LDS Church, Nothing of theirs makes this kind of Claim.
2Timothy 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
If the Bible cannot be trusted, How can I use it then to Correct error?
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
How can Hebrews be true if the Bible cannot be trusted? The Book of Mormon does not make these claims.
Now lets move on to an interesting topic here, Archaeology. An Author named Robert cornuke, He wrote a book called (The Lost Shipwreck of Paul). This guy used the Bible as a guide, He read the account of Paul on the Ship heading to Rome, Before the Ship was wrecked, they dropped to Anchors and then headed to Shore, the Island of Malta, Well after all these years they found the two anchors and cleaned them up and gave them to the president of the Island as a gift. Can the LDS use the so called details of the Maps found in the Book of Mormon to find stuff? The simple answer is no they have not and cannot. You can buy the Book I mentioned from amazon.com If you want a copy. Here is a story from the Book of Mormon that poses problems.
THE BOOK OF ETHER
CHAPTER 15
Millions of the Jaredites are slain in battle—Shiz and Coriantumr assemble all the people to mortal combat—The Spirit of the Lord ceases to strive with them—The Jaredite nation is utterly destroyed—Only Coriantumr remains.
1 And it came to pass when Coriantumr had recovered of his wounds, he began to remember the words which Ether had spoken unto him.
2 He saw that there had been slain by the sword already nearly two millions of his people, and he began to sorrow in his heart; yea, there had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children.
This massive battle would be modern day New York. Yet of the over two million dead, their is not even one Single coin found to prove this battle took place, LDS have never found one single shred of Evidence in the way of, Coins, Artwork, City's ,nothing. Christians have much in the way of evidence, They have even uncovered the Entire City of Nineveh. Yet the LDS have Nothing.
Lets look at the Dead Sea Scrolls, We found the dead sea Scrolls, these prove the Bible is the Word of God. We can compare the texts of our modern days to the really old, thousands of years old, Sea Scrolls and compare that the Word of God is intact.
But now lets look at the Book of Mormon. Not only is the issue of 4,000 Changes a big deal but, the LDS try and say, it is only minor Changes like, little words, IF and AN or BUT, or nothing more than grammar. This might be true, but here is why it is still a very big deal.
This an an account of how the Book of Mormon was translated.
From David Whitmer's An Address to All Believers in Christ (about 2/3 down the page, a few paragraphs above Whitmer's quoting of the preface of the Book of Mormon)
QUOTE
I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.
Now Not all LDS agree on this being true. But if it is true, then their could not be one single mistake ever in the Book of Mormon, not even with one Single letter. Then their are a few Doctrinal Mistakes. The LDS deny the trinity, yet the Original Book of Mormon state Jesus IS GOD, Now they say Jesus is A God. So that is simply more evidence the Book of Mormon is not the Word of God.
Then we can cover the Issue of Prophecy.
Lets look at one false Prophecy by the LDS.
This false Prophecy was taken from Doctrine and covenants chapter 84
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, September 22 and 23, 1832. HC 1: 286–295. During the month of September, elders had begun to return from their missions in the eastern states and to make reports of their labors. It was while they were together in this season of joy that the following communication was received. The Prophet designates it a revelation on priesthood.
1–5, The New Jerusalem and the temple shall be built in Missouri; 6–17,
1 A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.
2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.
6 And the sons of Moses, according to the Holy Priesthood which he received under the hand of his father-in-law, Jethro.
Not only has this temple never been built, but the LDS no longer even own the Land. The average LDS will give some sort of excuse as to how this will still be yet fulfilled, Sadly though it is still a false Prophecy. Notice also that it states this is a Word Given by God. If God really said it, it would have come to pass, Now to date it has been 200 plus years, That is a long, long generation.
Now lets look at some Prophecy from the Bible that has been clearly fulfilled.
SUBJECT PROPHECY FULFILLMENT
The Messiah would heal the blind Isaiah 35:5a Mark 10:51-52
The Messiah would heal the deaf Isaiah 35:5b Mark 7:32-35
The Messiah would heal the lame Isaiah 35:6a Matthew 12:10-13
The Messiah would be the messenger of the new covenant Malachi 3:1c Luke 4:43
The Messiah would be the new covenant Isaiah 42:6c Matthew 26:28
The Messiah would be the new covenant Jeremiah 31:31 Matthew 26:28
The Messiah would come to make an end to sins Daniel 9:24a Galatians 1:3-5
The Messiah would provide freedom from the bondage of sin and death Isaiah 61:1-2c John 8:31-32Isaiah 61:1-2c
Over all Marvin, the Bible has around 1,800 prophecy that have either been fulfilled or are going to be, can the Book of Mormon do that? Nope, not even close.
I hope this helps you, I will try and help you if you have any other questions, Just write me. Rick b
Wednesday, February 07, 2007
Amazing Grace?
My next topic will cover the Issue of Grace. I was talking with a Mormon who was talking about the new movie (Amazing grace) Coming out soon. I asked him, for an LDS member, how exactly is it Amazing Grace? I asked that because according to the LDS Church, we are saved by grace plus works after all we can do.
Read what after all we can do means.:
Now another reason I ask about Grace is this, Mormonism teaches that their is no forgiveness for those who commit murder.
Doctrine and Covenants 42:18 says, "…he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."
In that vein, Joseph Fielding Smith taught, "Murderers Denied Vicarious Ordinances…we do not have the privilege of performing the ordinances for murderers who shed innocent blood, nor for those who take their own lives…If we find in our record one of this kind, we should pass him by and not attempt to do the work for him…" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:192)
I feel sorry for the Mormons and the bondage they are under. there is really no hopeful outcome for latter-day saints through vicarious temple ordinances.
according to what they teach, there is no hope for the person who commits murder (according to Mormon doctrine, doctrines of salvation, miracle of forgiveness and teachings of the prophet). Yet I wonder--have the Mormons ever given any thought to what happened to J Smith? In D and C 135:4 he says his conscience is void of offence towards God and all men, and he says "I shall die innocent." Yet in history of the church 7:102-103 it says J Smith killed 2 people. Please explain how that is dying innocent and with out offence to God or man.
Please also explain where Joseph went if a murderer cannot be forgiven? The Bible teaches us God took Moses home, yet he killed a man in cold blood in exodus. king David had Bathsheba's husband murdered so he could have her, yet God said in acts 13:22 "David is a man after my own heart." 1st John 1:9 says "if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." the "He" is God. Murder falls under both sin and unrighteousness. Titus 1:2 says God cannot lie; therefore there is only bondage according to Mormonism.
1st peter 3:15 tells us to give every man an answer for the hope that lies within us. I ask where or what is that hope within Mormonism if there is no salvation for certain people, no forgiveness for certain sins?
I also see no grace in Mormonism because here is a list of works we must do, If we dont do these we wont attain the highest heaven, so how is that grace?
The Prophet Spencer Kimball Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. He gives a list of 6 things called (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). It says When you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,
Notice it says "Obedience to the Word of Wisdom." Yet Many LDS members do not follow this. Also we read in Gospel Principles pg 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. We are not repentant if we don't sustain the authorities of the church and don't love the lord and our fellow man. Yet again many LDS do not meet this requirement.
If we do not do these things, we cannot be saved, Grace is free and comes as a result of God loving us, Not because of the works we do. Rick b
Read what after all we can do means.:
'After all we can do' includes extending our best effort. 'After all we can do' includes living His commandments. 'After all we can do' includes loving our fellowmen and praying for those who regard us as their adversary. 'After all we can do' means clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and giving 'succor [to] those who stand in need of [our] succor' (Mosiah 4:15)—remembering that what we do unto one of the least of God's children, we do unto Him. (See Matt. 25:34-40; D&C 42:38.) 'After all we can do' means leading chaste, clean, pure lives, being scrupulously honest in all our dealings and treating others the way we would want to be treated. ("After All We Can Do," Christmas Devotional, Salt Lake City, Utah, Dec. 9, 1982; quoted in Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson.)" ("Savior accomplished atoning sacrifice through His grace," LDS Church News, 02/03/96, page 14.)
“President Harold B. Lee treated the topic of working out one's salvation in one of his books, Stand Ye in Holy Places: 'We hear much from some persons of limited understanding about the possibility of one's being saved by grace alone. But it requires the explanation of another prophet to understand the true doctrine of grace as he explained in these meaningful words: "For," said this prophet, "we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Ne. 25:23.) Truly we are redeemed by the atoning blood of the Savior of the world, but only after each has done all he can to work out his own salvation.'"("Work out salvation with fear and trembling," LDS Church News, 09/14/91, page 14.)
“As is the case with all gospel principles, the doctrine of individual accountability grows out of the atoning sacrifice of Christ. Teaching these principles, Nephi testified that we are saved by grace, but only "after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23.) It is by the grace of Christ that we have granted to us the materials of life with which we can build, but God does not do the building for us. The responsibility of building with those materials is ours. The plan of salvation is in a large measure a do-it-yourself project” (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Seeking the Spirit, page 99.)
“In the plan of salvation God does for human beings only what they cannot do for themselves. Man must do all he can for himself. The doctrine is that we are saved by grace, 'after all we can do' (2 Ne. 25:23)” (Robert J. Matthews, A Bible! A Bible!, page 186.)
“To explain how much confidence we should have in God, were I using a term to suit myself, I should say implicit confidence. I have faith in my God, and that faith corresponds with the works I produce. I have no confidence in faith without works. My faith is, when we have done all we can, then the Lord is under obligation, and will not disappoint the faithful; he will perform the rest” (President Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, page 155.)
Now another reason I ask about Grace is this, Mormonism teaches that their is no forgiveness for those who commit murder.
Doctrine and Covenants 42:18 says, "…he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."
In that vein, Joseph Fielding Smith taught, "Murderers Denied Vicarious Ordinances…we do not have the privilege of performing the ordinances for murderers who shed innocent blood, nor for those who take their own lives…If we find in our record one of this kind, we should pass him by and not attempt to do the work for him…" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:192)
I feel sorry for the Mormons and the bondage they are under. there is really no hopeful outcome for latter-day saints through vicarious temple ordinances.
according to what they teach, there is no hope for the person who commits murder (according to Mormon doctrine, doctrines of salvation, miracle of forgiveness and teachings of the prophet). Yet I wonder--have the Mormons ever given any thought to what happened to J Smith? In D and C 135:4 he says his conscience is void of offence towards God and all men, and he says "I shall die innocent." Yet in history of the church 7:102-103 it says J Smith killed 2 people. Please explain how that is dying innocent and with out offence to God or man.
Please also explain where Joseph went if a murderer cannot be forgiven? The Bible teaches us God took Moses home, yet he killed a man in cold blood in exodus. king David had Bathsheba's husband murdered so he could have her, yet God said in acts 13:22 "David is a man after my own heart." 1st John 1:9 says "if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." the "He" is God. Murder falls under both sin and unrighteousness. Titus 1:2 says God cannot lie; therefore there is only bondage according to Mormonism.
1st peter 3:15 tells us to give every man an answer for the hope that lies within us. I ask where or what is that hope within Mormonism if there is no salvation for certain people, no forgiveness for certain sins?
I also see no grace in Mormonism because here is a list of works we must do, If we dont do these we wont attain the highest heaven, so how is that grace?
The Prophet Spencer Kimball Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. He gives a list of 6 things called (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). It says When you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,
1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.
Notice it says "Obedience to the Word of Wisdom." Yet Many LDS members do not follow this. Also we read in Gospel Principles pg 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. We are not repentant if we don't sustain the authorities of the church and don't love the lord and our fellow man. Yet again many LDS do not meet this requirement.
If we do not do these things, we cannot be saved, Grace is free and comes as a result of God loving us, Not because of the works we do. Rick b
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