13 Articles of Faith

I am posting the 13 Articles of Faith. I will be talking about some or all of them in depth over time. Not all non-LDS know what they are or how many there are. So here is the list of 13 and what Bruce R. McConkie has said about them. Mormon Doctrine, pg. 53, under Articles of Faith.

Joseph Smith wrote 13 brief statements which have become known as the Articles of Faith, statements which summarize some of the basic doctrines of the LDS church. These Articles of Faith are scripture and are published as part of the Pearl of Great Price.

For brevity, clearness, and forthrightness of doctrinal presentation, they are unexcelled. When compared with the muddled creeds formulated by the supposedly greatest religious thinkers of Christendom-creeds born amid the strife, bitterness, and debates of councils that struggled at length over every word and comma-the Articles of Faith, coming forth as the spontaneous and inspired writings of one man, are a marked evidence of the spirit of revelation that rested upon the Prophet.

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541



1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Joseph Smith.

I personally find humor in the Article number 13. I see mormons coming to my blog, forgetting this article even exists and attacking me, my blog, and not obeying the rules. So much for

honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men

But this is to be expected. I also find it rather funny that Bruce said (and many LDS agree with him),

For brevity, clearness, and forthrightness of doctrinal presentation, they are unexcelled. When compared with the muddled creeds formulated by the supposedly greatest religious thinkers of Christendom-creeds born amid the strife, bitterness, and debates of councils that struggled at length over every word and comma-the Articles of Faith, coming forth as the spontaneous and inspired writings of one man, are a marked evidence of the spirit of revelation that rested upon the Prophet

(Emphasis mine.)

The reason I find this funny, not HA HA funny, but strange funny, is that looking at all the problems in mormonism: LDS believed the scripture when it taught about polygamy being given by God, yet now many LDS now deny this teaching, yet the FLDS and RLDS who follow and believe it are told they're not true LDS. But D and C 132 teaches this is an EVERLASTING covenant by and from the Lord. So what Bruce said applies to them, yet they deny it. Anyway I covered Articles of Faith Number 8 in two parts already. You can read them at Articles of Faith, part 2 and Articles of Faith part 1

Joseph Smith's Vision

I want to discuss a topic found in both the 1920 edition of the triple combination found in the very end of the book, and in the book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. on pages 106-107.

Vision of the Celestial Kingdom.

On the twenty-first day of January, 1836, the First Presidency, and a number of presiding brethren in the Church, assembled in the Kirtland Temple where they engaged in the ordinances of the endowment, as far as it had at the time been revealed. After this was done the Prophet states that "All of the Presidency laid their hands upon me, and pronounced upon my head many prophecies and blessings, many of which I shall not notice at this time." "All of the Presidency" included Oliver Cowdery and Father Joseph Smith as well as the two counselors, Sidney Rigdon and Frederick G. Williams. Following this ordinance the following vision and revelation were givin to the Prophet, making known to him and through him to the Church one of the most important principles pertaining to the salvation of men

.

The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell. I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire; also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son. I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold. I saw Father Adam and Abraham, and my father and my mother, my brother, Alvin, that has long since slept, and maravelled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.
Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying-

REVELATION

.

All who have died without a knowledge of this Gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom, for I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability, are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven. D.H.C. 2:380-381.

Here are a few problems I find with this vision Joseph Smith had. Read over the requirements for salvation given by Bruce R. McConkie found in the book "Mormon Doctrine," under "Salvation." This is also posted on my blog, under Will all be saved,Part 2

The requirements given do not line up with this vision. According to this vision, God states through the Prophet Joseph Smith, Anyone who died without hearing the gospel, if they would have heard the gospel and believed it, would be allowed to enter the Celestial heaven. If this is in fact true, then why even bother doing Baptism for the dead? I figure, if they would have believed, then they will be saved. Also, if this is true, why bother sending out Mormon Missionaries?

We also see Mormon Prophets both contradicting the Lord and confusing the people. If this vision is true, then we read about Prophets leading the LDS people astray. Here are a few examples. In the book, Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Student Manual, we read on page 131, under the title, (1-13) Exaltation Is Based on Celestial Marriage.

If you want salvation in the fullest, that is exaltation in the kingdom of God, so that you may become his sons and daughters, you have got to go into the temple of the Lord and receive these holy ordinances which belong to that house, which cannot be had elsewhere. No man shall receive the fullness of eternity, of exaltation, alone; no woman shall receive that blessing alone; but man and wife, when they receive the sealing power in the temple of the Lord, if they thereafter keep all the commandments, shall pass on to exaltation, and shall continue and become like the Lord. And that is the destiny of men; that is what the Lord desires for his children. (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43-44.)

These things are not only taught by Bruce McConkie and the Student Manuel, but also by the Prophet Joseph F. Smith. We also read in Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Student Manual, pp 30-31, a modern day parable given by the LDS PROPHET, Spencer Kimball. In short it states that if we are not married in the temple, we could be shut out of the 3rd heaven.

The Prophet Spencer Kimball in "Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, pg. 30, makes it very clear that we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. He gives a list of 6 things called, (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). It says that when you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about:

1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. Overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.

Then we read in "Gospel Principles," pg. 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). We are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the Sabbath Day holy or obey the Word of Wisdom. We are not repentant if we do not sustain the authorities of the church nor love the Lord and our fellow man.

Add to that pg. 241 of "Gospel Principles," eternal marriage is ESSENTIAL FOR EXALTATION (emphasis mine). Our exaltation depends on marriage. Then over on pg. 242, it says, "and in order to obtain the highest, a man MUST ENTER INTO THIS ORDER OF THE PRIESTHOOD [MEANING THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT OF MARRIAGE];" "and if he does not, he cannot obtain it" (D and C 131:1-3)

Now with all that said, how is it that Joseph Smith's brother does none of this, yet is saved in the Celestial Kingdom? Notice, Joseph Smith even states he marvelled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom.

We read in the Dictionary at Dictionary.com, the meaning of the word marvel is:

1. One that evokes surprise, admiration, or wonder. See Synonyms at wonder.
2. Strong surprise; astonishment.

v. mar·veled, also mar·velled mar·vel·ing, mar·vel·ling mar·vels, mar·vels
v. intr.
To become filled with wonder or astonishment.

If Joseph was surprised, it tells me that he did not expect to see his brother there. But why does his brother get special treatment? Please explain to me, why would I want to be an LDS member and do all the work required to enter the temple, and be taught the idea that I might not get into the highest heaven? If I read only the book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, believe his vision to be true, and die, I believe I could enter the celestial heaven by default, without any works.

Does anyone care to explain why the LDS church is built on a foundation of sand and confusion? Rick b

Will all be saved, part 2

In part two, we will be looking at what the LDS church teaches about ALL being saved. First, we must define the word salvation, according to how the LDS church defines the word. In the book, Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie, we read under the title, Salvation, page 669-670. There are two forms of salvation.

1st. General Salvation.
In short, it means every one will be raised from the dead.

2nd. Individual.

That which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience, consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one's mortal probation. (D and C 20:29;2 Ne. 9:23-24.) All others are damned, for as Amulek said: "How can ye be saved except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven?" Futher: Christ "shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else. Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be the loosing of the bands of death; for behold, the day cometh that all shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be judged according to their works." (Alma 11:37-41.) Even those in the celestial kingdom, however, who do not go onto exaltation, will have immortality only and not eternal life. Along with those of the telestial and terrestrial worlds they will be "ministering servants, to minster for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory." They will live "separately and singly" in an unmarried state "without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity." (D and C. 132:16-17.)

3. Salvation in its true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the celestial kingdom. With few exceptions this is the salvation of which the scriptures speak. It is the salvation which the saints seek. It is of this which the Lord says, "their is no gift greater than the gift of salvation." (D and C. 6:13.)This full salvation is obtained in and through the continuation of the family unit in eternity, and those who obtain it are gods. (D and C. 131:1-4;132.) Full salvation is attained by virtue of knowledge, truth, righteousness,and all true principles. Many conditions must exist in order to make such salvation available to men. Without the atonement, the gospel, the priesthood, and the sealing power,there would be no salvation. Without continuous revelation, the ministering of angles, the working of miracles, the prevalence of gifts of the spirt, there would be no salvation. If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 2, pp. 1-350.)

Now, according to this view of salvation, I have a few problems. Bruce admits that not all will be saved. He does not say they will go to hell, but that not everyone will be saved. He states that in order to enter the highest heaven, which is truly salvation, you must be married. This is not merely his own opinion, but it is a teaching of the LDS church. Read the book, "Achieving a Celestial Marriage." It also states this idea. So all the LDS who die before being married and sealed in the temple, I guess there goes your salvation! Here is something that really should bother anyone, even a faithful LDS member: Bruce said,

If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation.

If the restoration were really True, then it would be because of the Lord, not Joseph Smith. Lets not place Joseph Smith on any sort of pedistal. He was a mere man like everyone else. The other thing that bothers me is,

There is no salvation outside of the LDS church.

I suppose if this is true, then not ALL will be saved. How could they? Let's look at some verses now.

1 Ne. 6: 4
4 For the fulness of mine intent is that I may persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and be saved.

1 Ne. 13: 37
37 And blessed are they who shall seek to bring forth my Zion at that day, for they shall have the gift and the power of the Holy Ghost; and if they endure unto the end they shall be lifted up at the last day, and shall be saved in the everlasting kingdom of the Lamb.

1 Ne. 13: 40
40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.

1 Ne. 22: 31
31 Wherefore, ye need not suppose that I and my father are the only ones that have testified, and also taught them. Wherefore, if ye shall be obedient to the commandments, and endure to the end, ye shall be saved at the last day. And thus it is. Amen.

2 Ne. 2: 9
9 Wherefore, he is the first fruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.

2 Ne. 6: 12
12 And blessed are the Gentiles, they of whom the prophet has written; for behold, if it so be that they shall repent and fight not against Zion, and do not unite themselves to that great and abominable church, they shall be saved; for the Lord God will fulfill his covenants which he has made unto his children; and for this cause the prophet has written these things.

2 Ne. 9: 23
23 And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.

2 Ne. 10: 24
24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

2 Ne. 25: 13
13 Behold, they will crucify him; and after he is laid in a sepulchre for the space of three days he shall rise from the dead, with healing in his wings; and all those who shall believe on his name shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

2 Ne. 25: 20
20 And now, my brethren, I have spoken plainly that ye cannot err. And as the Lord God liveth that brought Israel up out of the land of Egypt, and gave unto Moses power that he should heal the nations after they had been bitten by the poisonous serpents, if they would cast their eyes unto the serpent which he did raise up before them, and also gave him power that he should smite the rock and the water should come forth; yea, behold I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven save it be this Jesus Christ, of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved.

2 Ne. 31: 15
15 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

2 Ne. 31: 16
16 And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.

2 Ne. 31: 21
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

2 Ne. 33: 12
12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day.

Jacob 6: 4
4 And how merciful is our God unto us, for he remembereth the house of Israel, both roots and branches; and he stretches forth his hands unto them all the day long; and they are a stiff necked and a gainsaying people; but as many as will not harden their hearts shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

Mosiah 4: 8
8 And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you.

Mosiah 12: 33
33 But now Abinadi said unto them: I know if ye keep the commandments of God ye shall be saved.

Mosiah 13: 32
32 And now, did they understand the law? I say unto you, Nay, they did not all understand the law; and this because of the hardness of their hearts; for they understood not that there could not any man be saved except it were through the redemption of God.

Mosiah 16: 13
13 And now, ought ye not to tremble and repent of your sins, and remember that only in and through Christ ye can be saved?

If hell is not real, then when these verses speak about being "saved," I must ask, what are we saved from? Also, reading the verses I posted from the BoM, I must say, they do not fit the context of salvation according to Bruce McConkie. What I mean by not fitting the context is this: these verses say we cannot be saved if we don't repent or believe on Jesus Christ. So how does that fit with being "saved" being nothing more than rising from the dead, or that we must be married to enter the 3rd heaven.

Now here are more verses from the LDS scriptures that mention eternal hell or damnation.

Jacob 7: 18
18 And he spake plainly unto them, that he had been deceived by the power of the devil. And he spake of hell, and of eternity, and of eternal punishment.

Alma 42: 16
16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.


D&C 19: 11
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

D&C 76: 44
44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment

We also read in the Book, "Miracle of Forgivness," that no one on their death bed can repent. How can they be saved if they are not allowed to repent? What about people who commit murder?

Doctrine and Covenants 42:18 says, "…he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."

Joseph Fielding Smith taught, "Murderers Denied Vicarious Ordinances…we do not have the privilege of performing the ordinances for murderers who shed innocent blood, nor for those who take their own lives…If we find in our record one of this kind, we should pass him by and not attempt to do the work for him…" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:192)

If people who commit murder cannot be forgiven, then I guess not all can be saved.

Please read over the verses I gave that speak on hell and eternal damnation, under my topic, How do LDS view these Bible verses?

Will ALL Be Saved? Part 1

My next topic will cover the issue: "Will All be saved?"
I believe many people will be cast into Hell, or the Lake of Fire for all of eternity and separated from Jesus Christ forever. I know that many LDS do not believe this. This topic will not exactly be on the issue of Hell or works, but both will be brought up. The main focus is going to be "Will ALL be saved or Only Some?"

I was having a talk with an LDS member who says,

Rick, what does ALL mean?

We both agree the word ALL means ALL. The problem is, the Bible simply does not teach that ALL will be saved. Like I said to him, "Is it really ALL or some?" What I mean is that not only does the Bible not teach ALL will be saved, but mormon theology teaches many will be lost as well.

Many Mormons object to an eternal hell on the basis that it would seem cruel for God to punish His own children in such a manner. But Mormons seem to either forget or ignore the fact that the Bible teaches we are not all God's Children. We are all God's creation, but not all are God's children. Read,

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on His name.

Let's also remember that Mormonism teaches that Lucifer's demon forces, which are clearly destined for "outer darkness," make up one-third of God's "children" (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 195). While Christianity affirms that many people who were created by God will perish in hell, Mormonism also espouses this idea by admitting that at least one-third of God's children will be in this state. Mormons may criticize the biblical teaching that many will perish in hell, but to do so is really hypocritical when LDS doctrine condemns a minimum of one-third of God's spirit children to outer darkness. This could easily amount to billions of God's so-called "offspring." This should be especially disconcerting to the Mormon since these condemned demons are really his fallen brothers and sisters.

Please go back and read all the verse I posted under the Subject of How do LDS view these Bible Verses? These talk about an eternal hell or people not being saved.
The LDS member I have been talking with said that Lucifer is a son of perdition, and the reason why he is a son of perdition is because he was not born into this earthly world with a body of flesh and bone. So According to Mormon Doctrine, pg. 746, under the title, "Sons of perdition,", this is the case. So my question to him was, "If this makes Lucifer a son of perdition because he never had a body of flesh and bone, how is it, the Holy Spirit goes from having no body in the pre-existence, to being a God within the LDS Godhead?"

I don't know about you guys, but this simply seems really unfair and not very loving. The Holy Spirit attains Godhead simply by passing all this mortal life has to offer, yet it is the goal of Mormons to attain Godhood by living out the laws and entering the temple to attain the Celestial Heaven. Many LDS will not attain Godhood, yet how fair and loving is your god to deny you Godhood because you failed at some point, while the Holy Spirit simply becomes a God with no reason ever given?

Now the question of "Will ALL be saved?" How do LDS handle these verses?

Rev. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Matthew 10:28 says, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Jesus said in Matthew 18:9 that "if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." (Also see Mark 9:43.) In addition, Jesus warned his followers in Luke 12:5 to "fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell."

Matthew 7:22-23: "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.

The Bible is clear. People will be cast into the Lake of Fire that burns for all of eternity. Notice that this passage does not say, only the sons of perdition will be cast into the Lake of Fire. It says, "all whose names were not found in the Book of Life." Add to this that Jesus said to many that did do miracles and MANY GOOD WORKS "I never knew you."

Here are some more hard verses.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of Man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall he sit upon the throne of His glory:

Mat 25:32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave Me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave Me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took Me in:

Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed Me: I was sick, and ye visited Me: I was in prison, and ye came unto Me.

Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer Him, saying, Lord, when saw we Thee an hungred, and fed [Thee]? or thirsty, and gave [Thee] drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we Thee a stranger, and took [Thee] in? or naked, and clothed [Thee]?

Mat 25:39 Or when saw we Thee sick, or in prison, and came unto Thee?

Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these My brethren, ye have done [it] unto Me.

Mat 25:41 Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Notice it does not say, God makes two Groups, The Sons of God and the Sons of perdition.

Read,

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Notice it says, these people will not inherit heaven. It does not say they will only inherit the 3rd heaven. If All will receive salvation, then why does the Bible tell us and teach us, God destroyed kingdoms and nations and people? For example, the world wide flood of Noah, Sodom and Gomorrah, the ten plague's in Egypt. Read the Book of Revelation and all the judgments to strike the earth. Almost the entire earth will be destroyed. God says He cuts it short lest ALL flesh will be destroyed.

This seems real unfair and unloving for God to do to His children. Just curious here, but the Bible is also very clear, there are people who place their trust in and follow false prophets and false messiahs.
What happens to these people according to LDS thinking?

Jesus declared in

John 14:6 that He alone was "the way, the truth and the life."

Not just any Christ will do. I will give many quotes from LDS sources to support my view on the topic "Not ALL will be saved" in part two. Rick b

Andrew Price

I am posting this Article on a man named Andrew price. I honestly dont know much about him, What little I do know is this, He harrases Mormons, wont listen to reason and Mormons in general really do not like him or how he acts. The reason I am posting this is because, Mormons really dont like to be treated like this, they dont like people like andrew. Sadly though Mormons sometimes do to us non-LDS as this guy does to LDS. My example is (BILLS) The LDS who left two comments under my Topic of two questions. His replys are posted below the article on Andrew, I will add a little more, and you can see both sides and decide for yourself.

Mormons ask court to silence preacher who believes their church is a cult
The Telegraph/November 25, 2004
By David Millward

An evangelical Christian accused of harassing the Mormon church spent nearly three hours knocking on an elder's door, the High Court was told yesterday.

Andrew Price, a preacher with the Church of England (Continuing) visited Elder Dustin Shaver at his home in Walthamstow, north London in September as part of his campaign against the Mormons.

Elder Shaver was not the only reluctant recipient of Mr Price's evangelising, Fenner Moeran, the Mormons' counsel, told Mr Justice Beatson.

On one night in August Mr Price bombarded Mormons - members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - with phone calls. He made 90 in less than four hours.

Mr Price also sent more than 80 evangelical texts from his mobile phone to a handset belonging to Elder Daniel Pitt over a period of two months.

The court was shown several videos of Mr Price in action. In one he was preaching in stentorian tones from behind metal railings at one of the Mormon church's London chapels.

In a second he was "evangelising" outside a metal gate to a garage at the Mormons' chapel in Hyde Park and in the third, he was at the door of the Mormons' offices in South Kensington.

The court heard how on Oct 28 Mr Price pursued three Mormons from their London headquarters in Exhibition Road, South Kensington to the Tube station.

He followed them on the Circle Line and Victoria Line until they finished their journey at Black horse Road in north London.

Throughout the journey Mr Price was trying to show them the error of their ways.

"I was addressing them and they were listening" he said. "In one sense I was preaching in so far as one Christian was speaking to them about the gospel."

The Mormon church has argued that Mr Price has taken evangelising too far and has asked the High Court to grant it an injunction to prevent him from continuing his protests outside its properties. It wants him kept at least 30 yards from any of its churches throughout the country. It also wants him banned from making calls to Mormons' mobile phones unless invited to do so.

But giving evidence yesterday Mr Price, 44, of Chiswick, west London said he believed it was his duty to inform people of what the religion stood for.

"I would describe Mormonism in its presentation as being like the Venus fly trap.

"There is something attractive which lures an insect into the body of the plant. Then it closes and the plant is happy because it has its prey."

Mr Price, who admitted he often spent six days a week preaching outside Mormon churches, denied he had shouted or screamed at worshippers.

"I have some experience of the effect talking and preaching has on the human voice," he said.

"It is simply not possible for a person to be shouting, screaming and ranting for a long period of time. The voice would go."

Admitting that his voice was stronger than most, Mr Price insisted that he was not addressing those inside the Mormon buildings but passers-by and visitors.

"It was my intention to bring to the public attention the nature of this body. It is a cult."

Cross-examined by Mr Moeran, he admitted that he spent considerable amounts of time preaching his message.

"I could be outside their buildings for eight hours a day, maybe longer," said Mr Price who describes himself as Britain's leading critic of the Mormon church.

Challenged why he had persisted in trying to contact Mormon missionaries, despite their pleas to be left alone, Mr Price said many had been brainwashed.

Asked whether he would abide by the terms of an injunction, Mr Price said: "My wife and I will have to make a lot of decisions.

"As far as I am concerned the Mormon people need help."

The hearing continues.

This is Bills first reply to my Question.

Bills said...

Rick


The real reason that faithful Latter-day Saints cannot accept Evangelical-Protestant beliefs is simple, because your god is a LOSER.

I know this statement sounds UN-loving and a bit harsh at first, but it's the honest TRUTH.

Clearly, your own interpretive theology makes void the Atonement of Christ and the Doctrine of Repentance. Sadly, according to your own religious philosophy, not everyone is going to be "SAVED." So, for you, your only choice is choose between heaven or hell and either choice you make is made from fear and ignorance.

Ultimately this means that your incomprehensible LOSER god is not just a LOSER, but also a SADIST.

So, in the providence and wisdom of Almighty God, do honestly believe that Jesus Christ is a dismal failure and too weak to
"Save" the entire human family?

Obviously, faithful Latter-day Saints do not share your same defective view of deity. I think it's truly a shame that you don't have a better description of your
loving Creator and the marvelous Plan Of Salvation.

As for the Latter-day Saints, our loving God came to seek and save that which is LOST. For us this happens to include EVERYONE within the entire human family. This is the reason we build Temples to the Most High God and send our loving
missionaries into all the world. One-by-one, people are coming to a knowledge of the restored TRUTH.
The Lord gladly accepts all those who truly REPENT -- Dead or alive. Eventually, all the children of God will be "SAVED/Restored" -- Praise be to God!

Consider the following words that were delivered by our Lord and Savior:

"What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance." Luke 15:4-7.

So let the true laborers in Thy Harvest; go forth, O God, even the Messengers of Thy Kingdom; and let Truth and Judgment go before Them unto Victory. so let Thy Kingdom come: and let Thy Will be done; even here upon Earth, as it is in Heaven: Amen.

Wishing you peace and much understanding,

Bills

PS -- Like Joseph Smith, Sir Isaac Newton also rejected the Trinity. Notice that the word Trinity is absent from every book of ancient scripture. Joseph Smith stated that the Trinity doctrine was an "ABOMINATION" and Newton declared it was a "FRAUD." Great minds think alike, don't they?

Bills Second reply to me was:

Bills
said...

Hey Rick B. it's Bills, my name is Bills -- Thank you!

Your whole purpose in evangelizing faithful Latter-day Saints is to SAVE them from burning in hell for all eternity -- Right?

So, anyone who is not "Saved" by your own interpretive theology will end-up in hell for the rest of eternity -- Right?

And, should I end-up in hell for the rest of eternity, this means that your defective idiot god is LOSER -- Right?

Well, somehow you just LOST me!

Nevertheless, I will never accept your idiot LOSER god philosophy or "ABOMINATION" theology.

The loving God that I worship knows how to "SAVE" the entire human family and not just a select few. Besides, only LOSERS are stupid enough to believe in some idiot god who's a LOSER.

So let the true laborers in Thy Harvest; go forth, O God, even the Messengers of Thy Kingdom; and let Truth and Judgment go before Them unto Victory. so let Thy Kingdom come: and let Thy Will be done; even here upon Earth, as it is in Heaven: Amen.


H A L L E L U J A H


Wishing you peace and much understanding,


Bills

PS -- Here's a list of Protestant-Evangelical teachings that are clearly absent from every book of ancient scripture. This should give you a few ideas to work on.

Trinity doctrine; Rapture theory; Alter calls; Sinners prayer; Death bed repentance; Salvation by faith alone theory; defective LOSER god philosophy; Biblical Inerrancy; Sola Scriptura; Creation Ex Nihilo.

The reason I am posting this is simple, I see (Bills) doing the same thing to non-mormons, as Andrew does to mormons. For all who disagree, please go and read my replys to him under the (2 questions) Topic. He came on trash talking, I asked him to at least reply to my questions before going off topic, and also to provide scripture to support his views, He did neither, yet replyed a second time, again talking trash. Then as I stated in my reply, I asked for Mormons to provide Ideas for topics, He sugested the Trinity, Yet I did an indepth article on the trinity, This tells me he never even looked over a single thing I wrote, he just came spouting off trash.

I have been on the FairLDS board and reachout trust board, One a mormon board one a non mormon board, both sides have rules for you to abide by and they do enforce them, Why should I be any different. Rick b

FOURTEEN FUNDAMENTALS IN FOLLOWING THE PROPHET

I am only posting these and adding one little thought at the very bottom, otherwise everything here is what Ezra Taft Benson said. And he supports all of this from both the 4 standerd works and LDS prophets and teachings of LDS in general. The reason I am posting all of this is, Because I will be quoting from these in my posts to come, I want people to be fully aware of these sayings and the scriptures that Ezra uses to support His teachings. Rick b



FOURTEEN FUNDAMENTALS IN FOLLOWING THE PROPHET
BY
ELDER Ezra Taft Benson
February 26, 1980

My beloved brothers and sisters, I am honored to be in your presence today. You students are a part of a choice young generation--a generation which might well witness the return of our Lord. Not only is the Church growing in numbers today, it is growing in faithfulness and, even more important, our young generation, as a group, is even more faithful than the older generation. God has reserved you for the eleventh hour--the great and dreadful day of the Lord. It will be your responsibility not only to help bear off the kingdom of God triumphantly but to save your own soul and strive to save those of your family and to honor the principles of our inspired constitution.

To help you pass the crucial tests which lie ahead I am going to give you today several facets of a grand key which, if you will honor them, will crown you with God's glory and bring you out victorious in spite of Satan's fury. Soon we will be honoring our prophet on his eighty-fifth birthday. As a Church we sing the song, "We Thank Thee, O God, For a Prophet." Here then is the grand key: follow the prophet. And here now are fourteen fundamentals in following the prophet, the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

In section 132, verse 7, of the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord speaks of the Prophet--the President--and says: "There is never but one on the earth at a time on whom his power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred." Then in section 21, verses 4-6, the Lord states:

Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;

For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.

For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

Did you hear what the Lord said about the words of the prophet? We are to "give heed unto all his words"--as if from the Lord's "own mouth."

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

President Wilford Woodruff tells of an interesting incident that occurred in the days of the Prophet Joseph Smith:

I will refer to a certain meeting I attended in the town of Kirtland in my early days. At that meeting some remarks were made that have been made here today, with regard to the living oracles and with regard to the written word of God. The same principle was presented, although not as extensively as it has been here, when a leading man in the Church got up and talked upon the subject, and said: "You have got the word of God before you here in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants; you have the written word of God, and you who give revelations should give revelations according to those books, as what is written in those books is the word of God. We should confine ourselves to them."

When he concluded, Brother Joseph turned to Brother Brigham Young and said, "Brother Brigham, I want you to take the stand and tell us your views with regard to the living oracles and the written word of God." Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said: "There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day. And now," said he, "when compared with the living oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books." That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: "Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth." [in Conference Report, October 1897, pp. 18-19)

Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

The living prophet has the power of TNT. By that I mean "Todays News Today." God's revelations to Adam did not instruct Noah how to build the ark. Noah needed his own revelation. Therefore, the most important prophet, so far as you and I are concerned, is the one living in our day and age to whom the Lord is currently revealing His will for us. Therefore, the most important reading we can do is any of the words of the prophet contained each week in the Church Section of the Deseret News, and any words of the prophet contained each month in our Church magazines. Our marching orders for each six months are found in the general conference addresses, which are printed in the Ensign magazine.

I am so grateful that the current conference report is studied as part of one of your religion classes--the course entitied "Teachings of the Living Prophets," number 333. May I commend that class to you, and suggest that you get a copy of the class manual at your bookstore, whether you're able to take the class or not. The manual is entitled "Living Prophets for a Living Church."

Beware of those who would pit the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence.

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "I say to Israel, The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God." (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, selected by G. Homer Durham [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1946], pp. 212-213.)

President Marion G. Romney tells of this incident, which happened to him:

I remember years ago when I was a Bishop I had President [Heber J.] Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home....Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: "My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it." Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, "But you don't need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray." [In Conference Report, October 1), p. 78]

Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

Sometimes there are those who feel their earthly knowledge on a certain subject is superior to the heavenly knowledge which God gives to His prophet on the same subject. They feel the prophet must have the same earthly credentials or training which they have had before they will accept anything the prophet has to say that might contradict their earthly schooling. How much earthly schooling did Joseph Smith have? Yet he gave revelations on all kinds of subjects. We haven't yet had a prophet who earned a doctorate in any subject, but as someone said, "A prophet may not have his Ph.D. but he certainly has his LDS." We encourage earthly knowledge in many areas, but remember, if there is ever a conflict between earthly knowledge and the words of the prophet, you stand with the prophet, and you'll be blessed and time will vindicate you.

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture.

Sometimes there are those who haggle over words. They might say the prophet gave us counsel, but that we are not obligated to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the Lord says of the Prophet Joseph, "Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you" (D&C 21:4).

And speaking of taking counsel from the prophet, in D&C 108:1, the Lord states: "Verily thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Lyman: Your sins are forgiven you, because you have obeyed my voice in coming up hither this morning to receive counsel of him whom I have appointed".

Said Brigham Young, "I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture" (Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints' Book Depot], 13:95).

Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

"Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear," complained Nephi's brethren. But Nephi answered by saying, "the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center" (1 Nephi 16:1, 3). Or, to put it in another prophet's words, "Hit pigeons flutter."

Said President Harold B. Lee:

You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life.... Your safety and ours depends upon whether or not we follow.... Let's keep our eye on the President of the Church. [in Conference Report, October 1970, p. 152-153)

But it is the living prophet who really upsets the world. "Even in the Church," said President Kimball, "many are prone to garnish the sepulchres of yesterday's prophets and mentally stone the living ones" (Instructor, 95:257).

Why? Because the living prophet gets at what we need to know now, and the world prefers that prophets either be dead or mind their own business. Some so-called experts of political science want the prophet to keep still on politics. Some would-be authorities on evolution want the prophet to keep still on evolution. And so the list goes on and on.

How we respond to the words of a living prophet when he tells us what we need to know, but would rather not hear, is a test of our faithfulness.

Said President Marion G. Romney, "It is an easy thing to believe in the dead prophets." And then he gives this illustration:

One day when President Grant was living, I sat in my office across the street following a general conference. A man came over to see me, an elderly man. He was very upset about what had been said in this conference by some of the Brethren, including myself. I could tell from his speech that he came from a foreign land. After I had quieted him enough so he would listen, I said, "Why did you come to America?" "I am here because a prophet of God told me to come." "Who was the prophet;" I continued. "Wilford Woodruff." "Do you believe Wilford Woodruff was a prophet of God?" "Yes, I do." "Do you believe that President Joseph F. Smith was a prophet of God?" "Yes, sir."

Then came the sixty-four dollar question. "Do you believe that Heber J. Grant is a prophet of God?" His answer, "I think he ought to keep his mouth shut about old age assistance."

Now I tell you that a man in his position is on the way to apostasy. He is forfeiting his chances for eternal life. So is everyone who cannot follow the living Prophet of God." [in Conference Report, April 1953, p. 125]

Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning. There will be times when you will have to choose between the revelations of God and the reasoning of men--between the prophet and the politician or professor. Said the Prophet Joseph Smith, "Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof until long after the events transpire" (Scrapbook of Mormon Literature, vol. 2, p. 173).

Would it seem reasonable to an eye doctor to be told to heal a blind man by spitting in the dirt, making clay, and applying it to the man's eyes and then telling him to wash in a contaminated pool? Yet this is precisely the course that Jesus took with one man, and he was healed. (See John 9:6-7.) Does it seem reasonable to cure leprosy by telling a man to wash seven times in a particular river? Yet this is precisely what the prophet Elisha told a leper to do, and he was healed. (See 2 Kings 5.)

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. [Isaiah 55:8,9]

Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter--temporal or spiritual.

Said Brigham Young:

Some of the leading men in Kirtland were much opposed to Joseph the Prophet, meddling with temporal affairs... .

In a public meeting of the Saints, I said, "Ye Elders of Israel.... will some of you draw the line of demarcation, between the spiritual and temporal in the Kingdom of God, so that I may understand it?" Not one of them could do it....

I defy any man on earth to point out the path a Prophet of God should walk in, or point out his duty, and just how far he must go, in dictating temporal or spiritual things. Temporal and spiritual things are inseparably connected, and ever will be. [Journal of Discourses, 10:363-364]

Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.

When a people are righteous they want the best to lead them in government. Alma was the head of the Church and of the government in the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith was mayor of Nauvoo, and Brigham Young was governor of Utah. Isaiah was deeply involved in giving counsel on political matters and of his words the Lord Himself said, "Great are the words of Isaiah" (3 Nephi 23:1). Those who would remove prophets from politics would take God out of government.

Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

The learned may feel the prophet is only inspired when he agrees with them; otherwise, the prophet is just giving his opinion--speaking as a man. The rich may feel they have no need to take counsel of a lowly prophet.

In the Book of Mormon we read:

O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches--yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them. [2 Nephi 9:28,29,42]

Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. The honest in heart heed his words, but the unrighteous either ignore the prophet or fight him. When the prophet points out the sins of the world, the worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn't exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Many a prophet has been killed or cast out.

As we come closer to the Lord's second coming, you can expect that as the people of the world become more wicked, the prophet will be less popular with them.

Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency--the highest quorum in the Church.

In the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord refers to the First Presidency as "the highest council of the Church" (107:80) and says, "whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those....the First Presidency, whom I have sent" (112:20).

Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency--the living prophet and the First Presidency--follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer.

President Harold B. Lee relates this incident from Church history:

The story is told in the early days of the Church--particularly, I think, at Kirtland--where some of the leading brethren in the presiding councils of the Church met secretly and tried to scheme as to how they could get rid of the Prophet Joseph's leadership. They made the mistake of inviting Brigham Young to one of these secret meetings. He rebuked them, after he had heard the purpose of their meeting. This is part of what he said: "You cannot destroy the appointment of a prophet of God, but you can cut the thread that binds you to the prophet of God and sink yourselves to hell." [In Conference Report, April 1963, p. 81]

In a general conference of the Church President N. Eldon Tanner stated:

The Prophet spoke out clearly on Friday morning, telling us what our responsibilities are... .

A man said to me after that, "You know, there are people in our state who believe in following the Prophet in everything they think is right, but when it is something they think isn't right, and it doesn't appeal to them, then that's different." He said, "Then they become their own prophet. They decide what the Lord wants and what the Lord doesn't want."

I thought how true, and how serious when we begin to choose which of the covenants, which of the commandments we will keep and follow. When we decide that there are some of them that we will not keep or follow, we are taking the law of the Lord into our own hands and become our own prophets, and believe me, we will be led astray, because we are false prophets to ourselves when we do not to follow the Prophet of God. No, we should never discriminate between these commandments, as to those we should and should not keep. [In Conference Report, October 1966, p. 98]

"Look to the Presidency and receive instruction," said the Prophet Joseph Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected by Joseph Fielding Smith [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1938], p. 161). But Almon Babbitt didn't, and in the Doctrine and Covenants section 124, verse 84, the Lord states:

And with my servant Almon Babbitt, there are many things with which I am not pleased; behold, he aspireth to establish his counsel instead of the counsel which I have ordained, even that of the Presidency of my Church.

In conclusion, let us summarize this grand key, these "Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet," for our salvation hangs on them.

First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture.

Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning.

Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.

Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency--the highest quorum in the Church.

Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency--the living prophet and the First Presidency--follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true.if we want to know how well we stand with the Lord, then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain. How closely do our lives harmonize with the words of the Lord's anointed--the living prophet, the President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency?

May God bless us all to look to the prophet and the presidency in the critical and crucial days ahead, is my prayer. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

I would like to point out, that I highlighted the part that the prophet Makes the claim all this is true And that OUR/YOUR SALVATION DEPENDS UPON THEM. So if any LDS state this stuff is not true, remember, we have a serious problem. The problem is, you saying the Prophet is and has taught lies?

LDS using Deception?

I have noticed over the Years, What I feel may be the use of Deception. The Dictionary definfes Deception as,

De·cep·tion
Pronunciation: di-'sep-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : an act of deceiving
2 : something that deceives : DECEIT

Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.


deception
1: a misleading falsehood [syn: misrepresentation, deceit] 2: the act of deceiving [syn: deceit, dissembling, dissimulation] 3: an illusory feat; considered magical by naive observers [syn: magic trick, conjuring trick, trick, magic, legerdemain, conjuration, illusion]

.

Now the Main part of the issue of Deception I want to focus on is this:

1: a misleading falsehood [syn: misrepresentation, deceit]

.

In my years of sharing the Gospel with Mormons, I have noticed way to often, this Use of misleading falsehood. What I mean by, I notice this, Is this. I will talk with Mormon Missionary's for example, And I will ask them, What do you think or believe about the Bible. They will say, We(I) believe the Bible to be the word of God.

They simply stop short, But I know the Articles of faith, I point out that According to Articles of faith number 8.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

Notice, that when I ask the Mormons what they think/believe about the Bible, they seem to forget the words, as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

So simply by saying, We Believe the Bible to be the Word of God, and leaving off the rest is a form of Deception. This is allowing the LDS member to lead people to believe something that even the LDS do not believe. I notice the LDS also do this when I ask, who do you believe Jesus is, Or what do you believe About Jesus.

The Mormons will tell me they believe Jesus is the son of God. The Problem I have with this is, First off those of us who are Bible believing Christians, Believe in the Trinity and One God only. But when Mormons say they believe Jesus is the Son of God, many Christians would think the LDS are saying they believe in the Trinity and one God only. But I know as well as the LDS members that they believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers who were either Created or were once men first, This depends on which view you hold.

Either way, this again is a form of deception. I am sure some LDS members will say that Christians will or due use Deception, This may be true? But if it is I honestly am not aware of it, and I don't use deception. I feel if the LDS really do have the true Gospel, then they should have no use for lying and deception. But if they need to do that, then they really should question if they are following a true beliefs or a lie.

If LDS have examples of Christians Doing this, please post them, I am very opposed to anyone having to lie or deceive to spread the gospel. I also am posting this topic, because I want Christians to be aware of this LDS tactic and point it out when it happens. And I want the LDS to be aware of this, just in case they do this and in all honesty they never realized they were doing it.

Priesthood Authority?

I have talked with many LDS members who keep claiming God gives us and used to create the earth with priesthood authority. I said Show me chapter and verse in either the Bible or BoM where God or the apostles ever said I bestow Priesthood authority upon you or you must have it. The Bible does speak of people having and using authority, but not priesthood authority. The mormons seem to ADD the word Priesthood before the word authority.

Here is a massive list of bible verses that use the word Authority

Est 9:29 Then Esther the queen, the daughter of Abihail, and Mordecai the Jew, wrote with all authority, to confirm this second letter of Purim.
Pro 29:2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.
Mat 7:29 For he taught them as [one] having authority, and not as the scribes.
Mat 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this [man], Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].
Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
Mat 21:23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
Mat 21:24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
Mat 21:27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.
Mar 1:22 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.
Mar 1:27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine [is] this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.
Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them [to him], and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 11:28 And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things?
Mar 11:29 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things.
Mar 11:33 And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.
Mar 13:34 [For the Son of man is] as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
Luk 4:36 And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word [is] this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.
Luk 7:8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].
Luk 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
Luk 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
Luk 20:2 And spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority?
Luk 20:8 And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.
Luk 20:20 And they watched [him], and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words, that so they might deliver him unto the power and authority of the governor.
Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Jhn 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Act 8:27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
Act 9:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
Act 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against [them].
Act 26:12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
2Cr 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Tts 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Any way, look at all the verses I quoted, Show me one where it mentions the word "Priesthood" Before the word authority? It does not. This is simply a word mormons insert as they feel it is needed. Read the Book of Mormon, We find the same thing their. If your going to teach something as fact, or state we must use, or need something and you cannot support it from the Scriptures, I question where you recived your Information from.

Anti's and Hyprocrites

I want to take a look at how LDS seem to feel anyone who tries to examine mormonism is labeled an ANTI-MORMON. I feel that the logic the LDS use to say that people are Anti-Mormon should be applied to them as well. I feel many, not all, but many LDS are bothANTI-Christian, as well as hypocrites. Here is why I say this.

Webster's dictionary defines "ANTI" as one who opposes a group, policy, practice, or proposal.

Even the B.O.M is Anti-Christian. Read

1 Nephi 14:10: Behold there are save two Churches only; the one is the Church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the Church of the Devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the Church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great Church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

Someone please tell me how this is not Anti-Christian. Now let's look at some things the LDS Prophets/Presidents of old have said about us Christians. I quote

B Young: "with a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199). I quote 3rd president John Taylor (Brigham Young quotes Mr Taylor) "Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell, the eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked onto the earth" (J.O.D 6:176). I quote Heber C. Kimball "Christians - those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about - some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth" (J.O.D 5:89).

Now, if people are really honest with themselves here, we reversed this, and had Christians said about the LDS, "they are the biggest whoremasters on the earth," "their religeon was hatched in hell," etc., they would cry out for our blood. Why is it they can say this about us? But yet, when we examine what they believe, we are attacked? Many LDS have even tried to get around the issue of the 1st Nephi quote, "there are only two churches." The LDS know that when the B.O.M speaks about the true church being the Lamb of God, it speaks about their church. So it would stand to reason, ANY church that is not LDS related does or could fall under the Church of the Devil.

In the Book Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie, page 137-138, under Church of the devil, he says just what I said. I quote Mr. McConkie,

The titles church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify ALL CHURCHESor organizations of whatever name or nature-whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious-which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God.

Bruce goes on to say, under the same heading and page,

Any churchor organization of any kind whatever which satisfies the innate religious longings of man and keeps him from coming to the saving truths of Christ and his gospel is therefore not of God.
Hence we find our Lord saying,

"he that is not with me is againt me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."(Matthew.12:30)

And hence we find Alma inviting the wicked to repent and join the true Chruch of Christ and become the sheep of the Good Shepherd.

"And now if ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? he asks. "Behold, I say unto you, that the devil is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold; and know, who can deny this? Behold, I say unto you, whosoever denieth this is a liar and a child of the devil"(Alma 5:39; Jos. Smith 2:19.)

Sometimes I really believe, Mormons either do not know what their scriptures teach, or they really don't care. Read

Jacob 1:19: if we do not teach the word of God with all diligence, then the blood of the people will be upon our heads.

This verse states if we do not teach the word of God, the blood of the people will be on our heads. Well, if I really believe the Mormons are deceived, and try and tell them, I get labeled as an Anti. Then add to that,

Alma 26:29-30 29: And we have entered into their houses and taught them, and we have taught them in their streets; yea, and we have taught them upon their hills; and we have also entered into their temples and their synagogues and taught them; and we have been cast out, and mocked, and spit upon, and smote upon our cheeks; and we have been stoned, and taken and bound with strong cords, and cast into prison; and through the power and wisdom of God we have been delivered again. 30: And we have suffered all manner of afflictions, and all this, that perhaps we might be the means of saving some soul; and we supposed that our joy would be full if perhaps we could be the means of saving some.

The verses in Alma are clear, Mormons went to people and taught them.

This goes along with Articles of Faith - Number 11

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

What is really sad here, is, if I witness to Mormons, I get attacked as an Anti-Mormon. Yet they, according to their scripture, take it to the people and teach them. But according to A of F #11, they say they allow people to worship how, who and where they like. Yet if we use a little logic, we find this is not really true. Here's why. If the LDS come to me and share their gospel with me, even though they might not come out and be so bold as to tell me what I believe is wrong, like I do with them, it stands to reason, If I believe what they teach me or tell me, then I must be wrong. We cannot both be correct. Either my belief is true or theirs is. We can't both be right, especially if our beliefs are vastly different.
Here is more LDS scripture they seem to forget about.
In the Pearl of Great Price, under

Joseph Smith 2:18-19, it says, “18: My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right and which I should join.19: I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the personage who addressed me said that ALL THEIR CREEDS WERE AN ABOMINATION IN HIS SIGHT; THAT THOSE PROFESSORS WERE ALL CORRUPT; THAT THEY DRAW NEAR TO ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEARTS ARE FAR FROM ME, THEY TEACH FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN, HAVING A FORM OF GODLINESS, BUT THEY DENY THE POWER THEREOF.”

In verse 17 it is God the Father and the Son speaking about the state of the Christian Church to Joseph Smith. We as believers are not attacking, we are just responding to Joseph Smith’s statement about our church. Now, here is something the Prophet/President said, I do this, but also find it rather intestering a Prophet would say this.

Read pg. 188 of

Doctrines of Salvation vol. 1, I quote Joseph F Smith. "CHURCH STANDS OR FALLS WITH JOSEPH SMITH. MORMONISM, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed: his claims should be rufuted, and his doctrines shown to be false".

Read also

D and C 71:5-11 98:14,23-26: it says meet your enemy in public. If I am your enemy, which I don't feel I am, it says meet me in public to talk about these things. Jesus said, "Love your enemy." D and C 66:7 68:1,9 says to go into the churches, publicly or privately to discuss these things. D and C 6:9-11 says, Convince us of our error if we have any.

Why do I get accused of being hateful for doing what the scriptures teach? Now let me add this, would you agree that it is good to listen to the mormon prophets? If so, then I am.


I quote Orsan Pratt

The Seer pg. 15. "we ask from you the same generosity--protect us in the exercise of our religious rights--CONVINCE US of our errors of doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of God, and we will be ever grateful for the information, and you will ever have the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God redeeming your fellow beings from the darkness which you may see enveloping their minds".

I am just trying to look at mormonism in a logical way and point out what I believe are problems. I find it interesting that Mormons of old were willing to tell others they were wrong or be open to talks, but it does not appear to be that way today.

Mormon President George A. Smith said on page 216 in volume 14 of the J.O.D.

“If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if it’s preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak.”

I believe this fits the Mormons perfectly, as they really don't want their faith to be examined. Because if you do, then they call you an Anti-Mormon.

Let me end with this. I have been talking on a board called Reach out Trust. They are believers in Jesus who allow different religions to come and talk. This includes mormonism. There is also another board I have been on, called Fair LDS. This is a board run by Mormons. They allow talks of different religions also who want to examine mormonism. There are times where there can be some really heated debate from both sides, even personnal attacks, even from Mormons, as much as they would like people to think otherwise. But anyway, they have on the FairLDS board a comic that slams both Christians and the Reachout Trust board. http://www.fairlds.org/apol/humor/humor02.html

My point on showing this comic is this: if it were believers in Jesus that did this comic and made fun of LDS members, they would cry out for our blood saying we are Anti-Mormon and hateful of them. Yet, they seem to be able to justify it when they do this. This is why I feel the terms Anti and hypocrite can equally be used with LDS members as they apply it to us. Rick Beaudin

Book of Mormon. Another testament? Part 2

The Old Testament is a story about a nation brought forth to present a messiah. The New Testament is the Story of that messiah. We read in

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Notice Jesus said, the Scriptures testify of him. We also read in

Deuteronomy 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold [him] guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

If the Lord Is so serious about his name not being taken in vain, that he makes it one of the Ten commandments, How more serious is he about his Word. We read in

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

God clearly states he puts

His Word

Above his Name. Lets look at some Verses that speak about the Scriptures.

Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Psalm 12:7Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Isa 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

In 2 Timothy 3:16 the phrase By inspiration of God In the Greek means God Breathed

Then when we read the words, for reproof Reproof means (Wrong conduct). And For correction It means (Wrong Doctrine). Can you show me in the BoM where we can use that "Scripture" To correct, reprove, or use for instruction? I don't think so.

Mormons teach, part of the Bible is not translated correctly. you have 2 choices, you can either except the entire Bible as truth from God, or reject it as false, You cannot pick and choose what you like.

The Bible, (Scripture) Clearly declares it is of devine origin and declares it's integrity.

1Cr 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

1Cr 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Jesus Pre-approved the verses above through the Holy Spirit. Read

John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Read these verses yourself, as the list would otherwise be way to long. These verses, presents Gods own speech in the Old Testament.

1 Kings 22:8-16 Nehemiah 8:1 Psalms 119 Jeremiah 25:1-13,36

We read in

Job 42:1-2 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,

Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do every [thing], and [that] no thought can be withholden from thee.

Notice Job said to the Lord, you can do anything! God never disputed Job on that subject. If God was not all powerful, then maybe we would need another Testament. But we don't more scripture. Not only Did Job make the claim that God IS all powerful, but also read

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Even Jesus states their is power in the scripture. And God has power.

Read

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Yet again the Bible claims it is the power of God.

Read

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Here in John, it plainly states, THE WORD IS GOD.. I would not want to mess with the word of God, because to do that you mess with God. and to have another Testament is saying God is not enough, we need more.

Under my topic in part one, Someone left this comment.

Anonymous said...

The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ. This means that its another testimony of the Savior working among another group of people, the Ancient Americans as opposed to His ministry among the Jews. From the Book of Mormon we received a witness that the Lord loves all his children and is involved with all of them.

I would like to reply to this point.

We read in the Great commission, that WE are to preach the gospel unto every living creature.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

Why would Jesus tell us to do this, but then go over himself? Also their is no evidence down through history or Archaeology that the BoM is true. Anyone really interested on this topic should see the Video Book of Mormon V. The Bible. This lays out plenty of evidence that the BoM is not true, by lack of Archaeology evidence.

Book of Mormon. Another testament? Part 1

I would like to cover the Issue of the Book of Mormon being another testament of Jesus Christ. I will cover this in two parts. The first part will cover the BoM and other problems, Part two will go over the Bible.

Here is what I feel is a very good question to put to your LDS friends, I feel this is a good question because I have used it and as of yet I have not had one single Mormon ever answer my question. This is not to say they wont give an answer. But will they answer it or can they truthfully answer it. I personally believe if they are honest with themselves or you, they cannot really answer this question.

Ask your LDS friend or any LDS you happen to be sharing with, if we really do need the BoM as another testament from God, can you supply me with a list off all the teachings from it that are not found in the Bible that will help me get closer to the Lord and help me in my salvation. If not then why do we need it?

I (Rick B) have read all 4 standard works. I see lots of things in the BoM that line up with the Bible but in fact deny LDS beliefs, Such as eternal hell, Trinity, One God alone, No baptism after death Etc. I personally believe the BoM was plagiarized and now we see it in the BoM. I want a list of things that are not in the Bible but in the BoM that get me closer to the Lord. I personally bet no LDS member can provide me with the information I need. This is why you need on going revelation, But along with that, when in the last 200 years did a Mormon Prophet Give a revelation from God that really told us something that Will get us closer to God?

I also asked for something in the BoM not found in the Bible because of A of F 8 and how JS himself made a bold claim that a man will get nearer to God by reading the BoM over any other Book. Joseph Smith said in the History of the Church volume 4, page 461,
"I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by it's precepts, than by any other book".

According to Dictionary.com these are the two meanings to the word precepts.
1. A rule or principle prescribing a particular course of action or conduct.
2. Law. An authorized direction or order; a writ..

I am posting these, because I notice LDS seem to change the definition of words when it denies their teachings. Example, it is said of God in the bible that he is from everlasting. Yet the mormons claim he had a beginning. So is he eternal or did he have a start? I guess it all depends on who's meaning you choose to use.

This is one reason that prove's to me that the BoM is false. I maintain No LDS member can give me the info I want, so instead they will either ignore this question, or refer me to different books, or say something like, If you know what your looking for you will find it.

That is a plain and simple Cop out. Or the 4th way around it will be, you will simply give me things that can be found in the Bible and try and get around it that way. Let me provide a short list of parallel's from the Bible and BoM.

Two articles I covered were the Trinity and the Cross, so you can look at those for more in depth information. But here is a short list we find in the BoM that is also taught in the Bible.

Everlasting Hell/Torment
Jacob 3:11 and 6:10
Mosiah 2:33,38 and 3:24
Alma 3:26,27 and 5:7
Helman 6:28,40 and 7:16

God the Father was never a man,
1st Nephi 11:21,31 and 13:40
2nd Nephi 9:8-9 and 26:12
Mosiah 3:5

God is the Most High God
2 nd Nephi 24:12-14
Jacob 2:5,10
Alma 11:21-41 and 26:14

Death on the Cross
Mosiah 3:8-9
Helman 8:14-15

Trinity
2 Nephi 26:12 and 31:21
Mosiah 15:1-8

I could provide much more on the lists above or even cover other topics found in both the Bible and BoM. So if we look at all these subjects, and say that the Bible covers them as does the BoM, then why do we need the Book of Mormon? If we say that because the Bible covers these subjects clearly and then say lets only go with subjects found in the Book of Mormon that are not found in the Bible that either pertain to my Salvation or help me with my walk with the Lord, can any Mormon in all good faith and honesty provide me with a list of these things from the BoM alone to help further my salvation. I maintain it cannot be done.

If I am correct and it cannot be done, then LDS need to honestly ask the question, Is the Book of Mormon really another testament of Jesus, or is it a false Gospel? If it is a false Gospel, then not only are you believing a lie, but you teaching a lie and sadly you will give an account for this to God on the day of judgment, then you will be cast into the lake of fire where you will be tormented forever. Is this something you are willing to rick for not honestly looking into this matter? Rick B