Thursday, December 02, 2021
I find rather often LDS members accuse me and others of hating them simply because we disagree with them. I want to ask LDS if you really think we hate you, why is it then you avoid 99 percent of topics posted? Why is it that when you do engage the topic, you simply say it's wrong, you leave an angry face emoji, or do not provide evidence as to what is wrong?
Remember, Paul spoke the truth to people. When he spoke truth to people, they accused him of hating them. How did Paul reply to this? He said this in Galatians 4:16, "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"
I want to point out two things that people do not know. I cannot and will not list every single book I own, but here is a small list of LDS books I own.
I own the entire "Journal of Discourses," the entire soft cover set of "History of the Church," and most of the hard cover set, the 1958, 1st printing, 2nd edition of "Mormon Doctrine" and the 19th printing of the 1966 "Mormon Doctrine," the 4-volume set of the "Mormon Encyclopedia," and the 3-volume set of both soft cover and hard cover of "Doctrines of Salvation." I have many other rare old and newer books.
I want to let LDS know that I and others have spent 1000's of dollars on these books. We have not spent years and years (for me it's going on 25 years), done all this research and study, and spent all this money, simply so we can try and talk you out of your faith. Just exactly what would we gain from getting you to walk away? If you think my pastor, or any pastor, is teaching that if we can get an LDS member to walk away, we will earn 100 bucks, you are crazy. We share the truth because we do love you and want to see you spend eternity in heaven, not the lake of fire.
Here are a lot of pictures with me and LDS members. Some of these pictures are me feeding LDS members or taking them out to eat and paying for them. I will share some info or stories about some of these pictures.
This first set of pictures comes with a bit of a long story; I will shorten it to some degree. This missionary's name was Garret, and we met through a friend of mine. My friend and I sat down at his place with Garret and his friend. We spoke for 2 hours. Garret wanted to meet up the following week at the same place. So, we met up and spoke for 2 more hours. On the 3rd meeting, shortly before we met, Garret called me and told me he had the flu. He asked me if I still wanted to meet up. This was back in 2005, and I said yes. He asked me to pick him up at the LDS meeting house. After talking for 1 hour, Garret said to me, "We have spoken for a total of 5 hours, and this will be the last time we can meet. So, can we spend the last hour talking about ourselves and getting to know each other better?"
In that 1 hour we talked, I let him know I was a professional chef. I no longer cook in the industry for the record. But, I was telling him I was/am a chili head. I love hot sauce and hot foods, and at the time I made my own hot sauce. He told me he loved hot and spicy foods and chili peppers also. So, I asked him if he had ever gone to Buffalo Wild Wings and taken the wing challenge? He said he had never heard of it. I told him, you order 12 wings and they are called blazin' wings. You must eat all 12 wings in 10 minutes or less, and if you do, you get your picture taken and win a free t-shirt.
So, we made plans to quickly meet up later, and I gave him a jar of my hot sauce and a bag of chips to try the sauce. Then, I gave him a 25-dollar gift card for Buffalo Wild Wings, so he could do the challenge. We exchanged addresses so we could keep in touch via written letters. Over the next few months, he sent me letters and 3 pictures. The first picture he sent was him standing by this sign, and I had it laminated. I feel the same way he did; LDS are my mission field. The next two pictures he sent me were pictures of him and his two companions taking the hot wing challenge. Written on the back of the pictures is him stating his time and how fast he did the challenge.
The first picture states he did the Challange in 1 minute 31 seconds. In the second picture, he said his one partner was crying and the other was sweating. Sadly, we ended up losing touch. I sent him one final letter and never heard back from him again. I cannot prove this, but I suspect his letters were being read, and someone did not like me trying to share the truth with him. So, either my letter was never passed on to him, or his was never put in the mail for me. But to this day, 16 years later, I still have all 3 photos and all his letters in my Bible.
Now, this is funny. One day, two Mormon Missionaries came knocking on my door, and I know that I can come across as intimidating. So, I showed the pictures to the LDS to whom I was speaking. I kid you not; they looked down at the pictures, then looked up at me, then looked down at the pictures and looked back up at me. Then, they said to me, "You know this guy?" I said, "Yes, why do you ask?" They said that Elder Garret is a legend among the missionaries. I asked why. They said it is because of him all Missionaries must go to Buffalo wild wings and take the blazin' wing challenge. I found that very funny; I explained the story behind it to them and showed them all the letters from him to me.
This next picture is an LDS member named Austin. One day, Austin came with his companion and knocked on my door. We talked for about 2 hours, and while we did not agree, Austin took my phone number. Over the course of a year or so, Austin stopped at my house with various LDS members to visit and talk. Austin and I have been friends for years, and to this day are still friends. In this picture, my wife and I invited Austin and his companion to come over for dinner; I grilled a rack of pork ribs, and my wife made homemade mac and cheese. Until Austin was transferred, he sent LDS members or brought LDS over himself to meet me. When I first met Austin, I told him that I once met an LDS member who told me they talk about people like me. The LDS member told me they have monthly meetings, and they blacklist people like me and "warn" other members to avoid people like me. Austin, at the time I told him, claimed that is not true. I told Austin that one day he would be taught this, and then he would know I was correct. Well, the first time Austin came over for dinner, I was telling his friend the same exact story and his friend said that it was not true. Austin started smiling and nodded his head yes.
I did not embarrass Austin and call him out, but he knew I was correct. Well, we invited Austin over again for diner a 2nd time. He brought a different LDS elder a few months later. Austin requested my wife's mac and cheese, so she made that for him. Any time Austin came over and brought an LDS member with him, I would ask Austin, "What's up, today?" He would tell me, I brought Elder so and so over to talk with you. I would ask any member who came with Austin if Austin told them in advance about me? They would say yes, and the local church knows who you are; they said they were there because they viewed me as a bit of a challenge.
I would talk with the elder, and Austin would just sit there and smile and listen. Over all, Austin came over to my house about 7 times, and he knew my house was a safe space for any LDS member. I always told every LDS member, rain or snow, hot weather or cold weather, they are welcome over. If they need food, water, need to use the bathroom or whatever, they can stop in my place if I am home. I also told every member who ever came over for any reason, if you do not want to talk about our beliefs, we do not have to. The LDS members all knew where I stood on my views on what they believe; I am trying to show the love of Jesus, and I do it both in word and deed.
In this next picture, these two young ladies knocked on my door. At first, I thought maybe they were friends of my daughter, since I saw them at the door, but did not see the elder badges. After I answered the door, I asked them how it was going? They told me they were looking for Rick Beaudin; I told them that I was Rick. I asked them, how did you hear about me? They said an elder at the mission mentioned me. I asked them, "Was it Austin who told you about me?" They said yes. It did not matter who sent them or why. It was just interesting. I invited them in, and we got to talk.
This next set of LDS Mormon missionaries I invited out to lunch and paid for whatever they wanted to eat. We went to a pretty nice sit-down restaurant. While eating lunch, we discussed our various beliefs.
This next picture was me and two missionaries who stopped by to talk.
This last picture was taken when I went back to Saint Paul, MN for my daughter's wedding. The church I attended for 19 years in Saint Paul would have Thursday night church services in a local park. The church has done this every year from June till August. In this park are 3 fire pits that are open to the public for have bonfires. I have been gone for just a little over 2 years. This service just happened to be my last Thursday before going back home to Texas. In the last 21 years, we have never had LDS members show up to the park while we had a church service. That is not to say that LDS never went to the park, but LDS have just never been at the park during a church service. One thing our church would do is start a public BBQ at 4 pm. Everyone is welcome to walk over and eat. The church does not ask for money or require they stay and listen to the church service. They cook and feed people free of charge from 4-7 pm, then have church service from 7pm to 8:30 pm.
These 6 LDS missionaries stopped over at one of the other fire pits; they were all just hanging out playing football and talking. So, I walked over and started talking with them. I talked with them for about 30 minutes, but then told them I will let them get back to what they were doing. I got to share with them the Jesus I believe in and some of the differences in our doctrine. But, at the same time, I told them I walked over uninvited and did not want to take away from their down time. So, I did not stay and force myself upon them.
Over the years I have spoken with hundreds of LDS. I do not have pictures of everyone I have spoken with in person. I have been to SLC 3 times and toured temple square. I've also been to many LDS services. So, if any LDS believe your leaders when they claim that any person like me, who disagrees with you, hates you, you need to show them this post. Please tell me, why is it that I spend money buying LDS books and studying them, asking questions, going to SLC, and church services? It is because the love of Christ constrains me.
Tell me how I hate LDS, when I invite members into my house and provide food and water, or take them out to eat? LDS members are told doing this type of stuff is loving thy neighbor. But, if Christians do this with, and for, LDS members, it goes ignored since it does not fit the narrative. If you are taught that we hate you or we are your enemies, you are being lied to.
Thursday, February 28, 2013
Mormonism teaches Grace PLUS WORKS, Notice The works part that you did not touch. Sadly Many LDS avoid mentiong the works part.
Read what after all we can do means.:
'After all we can do' includes extending our best effort. 'After all we can do' includes living His commandments. 'After all we can do' includes loving our fellowmen and praying for those who regard us as their adversary. 'After all we can do' means clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and giving 'succor [to] those who stand in need of [our] succor' (Mosiah 4:15)—remembering that what we do unto one of the least of God's children, we do unto Him. (See Matt. 25:34-40; D&C 42:38.) 'After all we can do' means leading chaste, clean, pure lives, being scrupulously honest in all our dealings and treating others the way we would want to be treated. ("After All We Can Do," Christmas Devotional, Salt Lake City, Utah, Dec. 9, 1982; quoted in Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson.)" ("Savior accomplished atoning sacrifice through His grace," LDS Church News, 02/03/96, page 14.)
“President Harold B. Lee treated the topic of working out one's salvation in one of his books, Stand Ye in Holy Places: 'We hear much from some persons of limited understanding about the possibility of one's being saved by grace alone. But it requires the explanation of another prophet to understand the true doctrine of grace as he explained in these meaningful words: "For," said this prophet, "we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Ne. 25:23.) Truly we are redeemed by the atoning blood of the Savior of the world, but only after each has done all he can to work out his own salvation.'"("Work out salvation with fear and trembling," LDS Church News, 09/14/91, page 14.)
“As is the case with all gospel principles, the doctrine of individual accountability grows out of the atoning sacrifice of Christ. Teaching these principles, Nephi testified that we are saved by grace, but only "after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23.) It is by the grace of Christ that we have granted to us the materials of life with which we can build, but God does not do the building for us. The responsibility of building with those materials is ours. The plan of salvation is in a large measure a do-it-yourself project” (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Seeking the Spirit, page 99.)
“In the plan of salvation God does for human beings only what they cannot do for themselves. Man must do all he can for himself. The doctrine is that we are saved by grace, 'after all we can do' (2 Ne. 25:23)” (Robert J. Matthews, A Bible! A Bible!, page 186.)
“To explain how much confidence we should have in God, were I using a term to suit myself, I should say implicit confidence. I have faith in my God, and that faith corresponds with the works I produce. I have no confidence in faith without works. My faith is, when we have done all we can, then the Lord is under obligation, and will not disappoint the faithful; he will perform the rest” (President Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, page 155.)
Now another reason I ask about Grace is this, Mormonism teaches that their is no forgiveness for those who commit murder.
Doctrine and Covenants 42:18 says, "…he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."
In that vein, Joseph Fielding Smith taught, "Murderers Denied Vicarious Ordinances…we do not have the privilege of performing the ordinances for murderers who shed innocent blood, nor for those who take their own lives…If we find in our record one of this kind, we should pass him by and not attempt to do the work for him…" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:192)
I feel sorry for the Mormons and the bondage they are under. there is really no hopeful outcome for latter-day saints through vicarious temple ordinances.
according to what they teach, there is no hope for the person who commits murder (according to Mormon doctrine, doctrines of salvation, miracle of forgiveness and teachings of the prophet). Yet I wonder--have the Mormons ever given any thought to what happened to J Smith? In D and C 135:4 he says his conscience is void of offence towards God and all men, and he says "I shall die innocent." Yet in history of the church 7:102-103 it says J Smith killed 2 people. Please explain how that is dying innocent and with out offence to God or man.
Please also explain where Joseph went if a murderer cannot be forgiven? The Bible teaches us God took Moses home, yet he killed a man in cold blood in exodus. king David had Bathsheba's husband murdered so he could have her, yet God said in acts 13:22 "David is a man after my own heart." 1st John 1:9 says "if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." the "He" is God. Murder falls under both sin and unrighteousness. Titus 1:2 says God cannot lie; therefore there is only bondage according to Mormonism.
1st peter 3:15 tells us to give every man an answer for the hope that lies within us. I ask where or what is that hope within Mormonism if there is no salvation for certain people, no forgiveness for certain sins?
I also see no grace in Mormonism because here is a list of works we must do, If we dont do these we wont attain the highest heaven, so how is that grace?
The Prophet Spencer Kimball Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. He gives a list of 6 things called (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). It says When you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,
1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.
Notice it says "Obedience to the Word of Wisdom." Yet Many LDS members do not follow this. Also we read in Gospel Principles pg 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. We are not repentant if we don't sustain the authorities of the church and don't love the lord and our fellow man. Yet again many LDS do not meet this requirement.
If we do not do these things, we cannot be saved, Grace is free and comes as a result of God loving us, Not because of the works we do. Rick b
Read what after all we can do means.:
'After all we can do' includes extending our best effort. 'After all we can do' includes living His commandments. 'After all we can do' includes loving our fellowmen and praying for those who regard us as their adversary. 'After all we can do' means clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and giving 'succor [to] those who stand in need of [our] succor' (Mosiah 4:15)—remembering that what we do unto one of the least of God's children, we do unto Him. (See Matt. 25:34-40; D&C 42:38.) 'After all we can do' means leading chaste, clean, pure lives, being scrupulously honest in all our dealings and treating others the way we would want to be treated. ("After All We Can Do," Christmas Devotional, Salt Lake City, Utah, Dec. 9, 1982; quoted in Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson.)" ("Savior accomplished atoning sacrifice through His grace," LDS Church News, 02/03/96, page 14.)
“President Harold B. Lee treated the topic of working out one's salvation in one of his books, Stand Ye in Holy Places: 'We hear much from some persons of limited understanding about the possibility of one's being saved by grace alone. But it requires the explanation of another prophet to understand the true doctrine of grace as he explained in these meaningful words: "For," said this prophet, "we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Ne. 25:23.) Truly we are redeemed by the atoning blood of the Savior of the world, but only after each has done all he can to work out his own salvation.'"("Work out salvation with fear and trembling," LDS Church News, 09/14/91, page 14.)
“As is the case with all gospel principles, the doctrine of individual accountability grows out of the atoning sacrifice of Christ. Teaching these principles, Nephi testified that we are saved by grace, but only "after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23.) It is by the grace of Christ that we have granted to us the materials of life with which we can build, but God does not do the building for us. The responsibility of building with those materials is ours. The plan of salvation is in a large measure a do-it-yourself project” (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Seeking the Spirit, page 99.)
“In the plan of salvation God does for human beings only what they cannot do for themselves. Man must do all he can for himself. The doctrine is that we are saved by grace, 'after all we can do' (2 Ne. 25:23)” (Robert J. Matthews, A Bible! A Bible!, page 186.)
“To explain how much confidence we should have in God, were I using a term to suit myself, I should say implicit confidence. I have faith in my God, and that faith corresponds with the works I produce. I have no confidence in faith without works. My faith is, when we have done all we can, then the Lord is under obligation, and will not disappoint the faithful; he will perform the rest” (President Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, page 155.)
Now another reason I ask about Grace is this, Mormonism teaches that their is no forgiveness for those who commit murder.
Doctrine and Covenants 42:18 says, "…he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come."
In that vein, Joseph Fielding Smith taught, "Murderers Denied Vicarious Ordinances…we do not have the privilege of performing the ordinances for murderers who shed innocent blood, nor for those who take their own lives…If we find in our record one of this kind, we should pass him by and not attempt to do the work for him…" (Doctrines of Salvation 2:192)
I feel sorry for the Mormons and the bondage they are under. there is really no hopeful outcome for latter-day saints through vicarious temple ordinances.
according to what they teach, there is no hope for the person who commits murder (according to Mormon doctrine, doctrines of salvation, miracle of forgiveness and teachings of the prophet). Yet I wonder--have the Mormons ever given any thought to what happened to J Smith? In D and C 135:4 he says his conscience is void of offence towards God and all men, and he says "I shall die innocent." Yet in history of the church 7:102-103 it says J Smith killed 2 people. Please explain how that is dying innocent and with out offence to God or man.
Please also explain where Joseph went if a murderer cannot be forgiven? The Bible teaches us God took Moses home, yet he killed a man in cold blood in exodus. king David had Bathsheba's husband murdered so he could have her, yet God said in acts 13:22 "David is a man after my own heart." 1st John 1:9 says "if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." the "He" is God. Murder falls under both sin and unrighteousness. Titus 1:2 says God cannot lie; therefore there is only bondage according to Mormonism.
1st peter 3:15 tells us to give every man an answer for the hope that lies within us. I ask where or what is that hope within Mormonism if there is no salvation for certain people, no forgiveness for certain sins?
I also see no grace in Mormonism because here is a list of works we must do, If we dont do these we wont attain the highest heaven, so how is that grace?
The Prophet Spencer Kimball Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. He gives a list of 6 things called (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). It says When you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,
1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.
Notice it says "Obedience to the Word of Wisdom." Yet Many LDS members do not follow this. Also we read in Gospel Principles pg 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. We are not repentant if we don't sustain the authorities of the church and don't love the lord and our fellow man. Yet again many LDS do not meet this requirement.
If we do not do these things, we cannot be saved, Grace is free and comes as a result of God loving us, Not because of the works we do. Rick b
Tuesday, April 27, 2010
BoM verses the Bible Part 1
Jim Olson said to Messianic
Messianic,
Have you read the BOM? In what ways does it “contradict” the Bible? You realize that what you related is an opinion, and there are millions of people who have studied the BOM and are of the opinion that it does not contradict the Bible. Have you made a serious study of the BOM, or just relied upon the opinions of others?
Jim, I have read the BoM and all the standard works and here is a partial list of contradictions, their are so many I will need to do two or three parts.
I wanted to reply to you about all the contradictions I see in the BoM that do not line up with the Bible. I needed to write this up as a post and not a reply under a topic because there are way to many problems and I was so busy that by the time I was able to reply, the topic was so far down that you would not give a good reply if one at all. So, here we go.
I'm doing my own reading of the BoM too find these problems, not simply scouring the internet looking for them. The list is very long. lets start with this.
1 Nephi 1:2
2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.
and
Mosiah 1:4 For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time.
According to the Bible, God told the Jews to not go back to the Egyptians and you cannot show me from the Bible or history where the Jews are to use the language of the Egyptians.
Egypt is the house of bondage
Exd 13:14 And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What [is] this? that thou shalt say unto him, By strength of hand the LORD brought us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage:
Exd 13:3 And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this [place]: there shall no leavened bread be eaten.
Another one.
19 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying: Blessed art thou, Nephi, because of thy faith, for thou hast sought me diligently, with lowliness of heart.
20 And inasmuch as ye shall keep my commandments, ye shall prosper, and shall be led to a land of promise; yea, even a land which I have prepared for you; yea, a land which is choice above all other lands.
21 And inasmuch as thy brethren shall rebel against thee, they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord.
I put this down because according to the Bible, there is only one promised land and the Jews are in it. There is never any mention of any other people group, including Jews having a second promised land.
Deu 6:3
Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do [it]; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
This is not a huge deal in the sense of a salvation issue, but it is a problem just the same.
1 Nephi 5:19 19 Wherefore, he said that these plates of brass should never perish; neither should they be dimmed any more by time. And he prophesied many things concerning his seed.
1 Nephi 6:1
1 And now I, Nephi, do not give the genealogy of my fathers in athis part of my record; neither at any time shall I give it after upon these bplates which I am cwriting; for it is given in the record which has been kept by my dfather; wherefore, I do not write it in this work.
I only bring these up because you never see any accounts in the Bible being kept on metal plates, plus we have the dead sea scrolls but we do not have any of these plates as evidence.
Deuteronomy 31:24-26
And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
Nehemiah 8:8
So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused [them] to understand the reading.
Here is a problem.
1 Nephi 6:4
4 For the fulness of mine intent is that I may persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and be saved.
The reason this is a major problem and contradiction is because God created the nation of Israel to bring people to Him. If you were not a Jew then you were a Gentile, and the best you could do was convert, then enter the court of the Gentiles. So, unless you can prove from the Bible that Nephi is/was a true Jew, what he said cannot be true. God would not tell him this. In the Bible, God did use Gentiles, but not for that purpose.
Isa 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Here is a contradiction.
10 And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.
Show me from the Bible about 3 days of darkness being a sign.
To this one I say, "Really?"
7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.
The Bible does not teach this, Read 1st John 1:8-9
Here are a bunch of verses that contradict the Bible because they mention the "Church" And according to the Bible the Church did not appear until Jesus created it when he walked among us, yet the BoM mentions the Church and all these mentions are hundreds of years before Jesus was even born.
Mosiah 25:22 And thus, not with standing there being many churches they were all one church, yea, even the church of God; for there was nothing preached in all the churches except it were repentance and faith in God.
Mosiah 26:22 22 For behold, this is my church; whosoever is baptized shall be baptized unto repentance
Alma 1:7 And it came to pass as he was going, to preach to those who believed on his word, he met a man who belonged to the church of God, yea, even one of their teachers; and he began to contend with him sharply, that he might lead away the people of the church; but the man withstood him, admonishing him with the words of God.
Alma 4:4-5,9
4 And they began to establish the church more fully; yea, and many were baptized in the waters of Sidon and were joined to the church of God; yea, they were baptized by the hand of Alma, who had been consecrated the high priest over the people of the church, by the hand of his father Alma.
5 And it came to pass in the *seventh year of the reign of the judges there were about three thousand five hundred souls that united themselves to the church of God and were baptized. And thus ended the seventh year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi; and there was continual peace in all that time.
9 And thus, in this eighth year of the reign of the judges, there began to be great contentions among the people of the church; yea, there were envyings, and strife, and malice, and persecutions, and pride, even to exceed the pride of those who did not belong to the church of God.
There are more verses about the Church, but this gets the point across.
Mat 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
How about this? Alma 7:14
14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again
Jesus spoke about being born again, prior to that it was never mention in the Bible, I suspect LDS will blow this off, but its funny how things Jesus said are being said by people that lived before He did, and were never mentioned by the Prophets in the OT.
Here is a big problem. Alma 13:18-19
18 But Melchizedek having exercised mighty faith, and received the office of the high priesthood according to the holy order of God, did preach repentance unto his people. And behold, they did repent; and Melchizedek did establish peace in the land in his days; therefore he was called the prince of peace, for he was the king of Salem; and he did reign under his father.
19 Now, there were many before him, and also there were many after wards, but none were greater; therefore, of him they have more particularly made mention.
According to the Bible, Melchizedek had no mother or father.
Hebrews 7:1-3
For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
The problem with this verse is, the scriptures were not open to everyone and anyone. They were only for the Jews, and the Gentiles did not have the word of God. Plus unlike when this was stated in the book of Acts, in Acts 17:11. At that time, they had the entire OT to go back and search. At this time, they had even less time to look back over.
Alma 17:2 Now these sons of Mosiah were with Alma at the time the angel first appeared unto him; therefore Alma did rejoice exceedingly to see his brethren; and what added more to his joy, they were still his brethren in the Lord; yea, and they had waxed strong in the knowledge of the truth; for they were men of a sound understanding and they had searched the scriptures diligently, that they might know the word of God.
Act 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Jesus was not around until the NT, so that's a problem.
Alma 19:29 And it came to pass that she went and took the queen by the hand, that perhaps she might raise her from the ground; and as soon as she touched her hand she arose and stood upon her feet, and cried with a loud voice, saying: O blessed Jesus, who has saved me from an awful hell! O blessed God, have mercy on this people!
Is this Aaron the Brother of Moses?
Alma 21:9
9 Now Aaron began to open the scriptures unto them concerning the coming of Christ, and also concerning the resurrection of the dead, and that there could be no redemption for mankind save it were through the death and sufferings of Christ, and the atonement of his blood.
Either way, it does not really matter because before Jesus came, His coming was a mystery and the prophets did not understand what was going on.
1Peter 1:10-12 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
Part 2 coming later, Rick B
Messianic,
Have you read the BOM? In what ways does it “contradict” the Bible? You realize that what you related is an opinion, and there are millions of people who have studied the BOM and are of the opinion that it does not contradict the Bible. Have you made a serious study of the BOM, or just relied upon the opinions of others?
Jim, I have read the BoM and all the standard works and here is a partial list of contradictions, their are so many I will need to do two or three parts.
I wanted to reply to you about all the contradictions I see in the BoM that do not line up with the Bible. I needed to write this up as a post and not a reply under a topic because there are way to many problems and I was so busy that by the time I was able to reply, the topic was so far down that you would not give a good reply if one at all. So, here we go.
I'm doing my own reading of the BoM too find these problems, not simply scouring the internet looking for them. The list is very long. lets start with this.
1 Nephi 1:2
2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.
and
Mosiah 1:4 For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time.
According to the Bible, God told the Jews to not go back to the Egyptians and you cannot show me from the Bible or history where the Jews are to use the language of the Egyptians.
Egypt is the house of bondage
Exd 13:14 And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What [is] this? that thou shalt say unto him, By strength of hand the LORD brought us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage:
Exd 13:3 And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this [place]: there shall no leavened bread be eaten.
Another one.
19 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying: Blessed art thou, Nephi, because of thy faith, for thou hast sought me diligently, with lowliness of heart.
20 And inasmuch as ye shall keep my commandments, ye shall prosper, and shall be led to a land of promise; yea, even a land which I have prepared for you; yea, a land which is choice above all other lands.
21 And inasmuch as thy brethren shall rebel against thee, they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord.
I put this down because according to the Bible, there is only one promised land and the Jews are in it. There is never any mention of any other people group, including Jews having a second promised land.
Deu 6:3
Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do [it]; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
This is not a huge deal in the sense of a salvation issue, but it is a problem just the same.
1 Nephi 5:19 19 Wherefore, he said that these plates of brass should never perish; neither should they be dimmed any more by time. And he prophesied many things concerning his seed.
1 Nephi 6:1
1 And now I, Nephi, do not give the genealogy of my fathers in athis part of my record; neither at any time shall I give it after upon these bplates which I am cwriting; for it is given in the record which has been kept by my dfather; wherefore, I do not write it in this work.
I only bring these up because you never see any accounts in the Bible being kept on metal plates, plus we have the dead sea scrolls but we do not have any of these plates as evidence.
Deuteronomy 31:24-26
And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
Nehemiah 8:8
So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused [them] to understand the reading.
Here is a problem.
1 Nephi 6:4
4 For the fulness of mine intent is that I may persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and be saved.
The reason this is a major problem and contradiction is because God created the nation of Israel to bring people to Him. If you were not a Jew then you were a Gentile, and the best you could do was convert, then enter the court of the Gentiles. So, unless you can prove from the Bible that Nephi is/was a true Jew, what he said cannot be true. God would not tell him this. In the Bible, God did use Gentiles, but not for that purpose.
Isa 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Here is a contradiction.
10 And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.
Show me from the Bible about 3 days of darkness being a sign.
To this one I say, "Really?"
7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.
The Bible does not teach this, Read 1st John 1:8-9
Here are a bunch of verses that contradict the Bible because they mention the "Church" And according to the Bible the Church did not appear until Jesus created it when he walked among us, yet the BoM mentions the Church and all these mentions are hundreds of years before Jesus was even born.
Mosiah 25:22 And thus, not with standing there being many churches they were all one church, yea, even the church of God; for there was nothing preached in all the churches except it were repentance and faith in God.
Mosiah 26:22 22 For behold, this is my church; whosoever is baptized shall be baptized unto repentance
Alma 1:7 And it came to pass as he was going, to preach to those who believed on his word, he met a man who belonged to the church of God, yea, even one of their teachers; and he began to contend with him sharply, that he might lead away the people of the church; but the man withstood him, admonishing him with the words of God.
Alma 4:4-5,9
4 And they began to establish the church more fully; yea, and many were baptized in the waters of Sidon and were joined to the church of God; yea, they were baptized by the hand of Alma, who had been consecrated the high priest over the people of the church, by the hand of his father Alma.
5 And it came to pass in the *seventh year of the reign of the judges there were about three thousand five hundred souls that united themselves to the church of God and were baptized. And thus ended the seventh year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi; and there was continual peace in all that time.
9 And thus, in this eighth year of the reign of the judges, there began to be great contentions among the people of the church; yea, there were envyings, and strife, and malice, and persecutions, and pride, even to exceed the pride of those who did not belong to the church of God.
There are more verses about the Church, but this gets the point across.
Mat 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
How about this? Alma 7:14
14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again
Jesus spoke about being born again, prior to that it was never mention in the Bible, I suspect LDS will blow this off, but its funny how things Jesus said are being said by people that lived before He did, and were never mentioned by the Prophets in the OT.
Here is a big problem. Alma 13:18-19
18 But Melchizedek having exercised mighty faith, and received the office of the high priesthood according to the holy order of God, did preach repentance unto his people. And behold, they did repent; and Melchizedek did establish peace in the land in his days; therefore he was called the prince of peace, for he was the king of Salem; and he did reign under his father.
19 Now, there were many before him, and also there were many after wards, but none were greater; therefore, of him they have more particularly made mention.
According to the Bible, Melchizedek had no mother or father.
Hebrews 7:1-3
For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
The problem with this verse is, the scriptures were not open to everyone and anyone. They were only for the Jews, and the Gentiles did not have the word of God. Plus unlike when this was stated in the book of Acts, in Acts 17:11. At that time, they had the entire OT to go back and search. At this time, they had even less time to look back over.
Alma 17:2 Now these sons of Mosiah were with Alma at the time the angel first appeared unto him; therefore Alma did rejoice exceedingly to see his brethren; and what added more to his joy, they were still his brethren in the Lord; yea, and they had waxed strong in the knowledge of the truth; for they were men of a sound understanding and they had searched the scriptures diligently, that they might know the word of God.
Act 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Jesus was not around until the NT, so that's a problem.
Alma 19:29 And it came to pass that she went and took the queen by the hand, that perhaps she might raise her from the ground; and as soon as she touched her hand she arose and stood upon her feet, and cried with a loud voice, saying: O blessed Jesus, who has saved me from an awful hell! O blessed God, have mercy on this people!
Is this Aaron the Brother of Moses?
Alma 21:9
9 Now Aaron began to open the scriptures unto them concerning the coming of Christ, and also concerning the resurrection of the dead, and that there could be no redemption for mankind save it were through the death and sufferings of Christ, and the atonement of his blood.
Either way, it does not really matter because before Jesus came, His coming was a mystery and the prophets did not understand what was going on.
1Peter 1:10-12 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
Part 2 coming later, Rick B
Thursday, March 05, 2009
Bruce R. McConkie's "Challenge
I posted this back in Jan of (06) And no one has been able to take it up and give an honest answer. I even posted it on another Blog and the only reply from an LDS person was, I could reply I just do not want to. I told her she was a liar and could not that was why she did not. I showed it to a Mormon Missionary I was sharing with, him and his partner could not answer it, so here it is again for any one who has not seen it. I am posting it again because I was told I would get the answers I am looking for. Rick b
In the Original 1958 Edition to the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R.McConkie He states In the Preface:
This Work on Mormon Doctrine Is unique--the first book of it's kind ever published.
It is the first major attempt to digest, explain, and analyze all of the important doctrines of the kingdom.
It is the first extensive compendium of the whole gospel--the first attempt to publish an encyclopedic commentary covering the whole field of revealed religion.
True, there are many Bible commentaries, dictionaries, and encyclopedias; but they all abound in apostate, sectarian notions. Also, there are many sound gospel texts on special subjects.
But never before has a comprehensive attempt been made to define and outline, in a brief manner, all of the basic principles of salvation--and to do it from the perspective of all revelation, both ancient and modern.
This work on Mormon Doctrine is designed to help persons seeking salvation to gain that knowledge of God and his laws without which they cannot hope for an inheritance in the celestial city.
Since it is impossible foe a man to be saved in ignorance of God and his laws and since a man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge of Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation, it follows that men are obligated at their peril to learn and apply the true doctrines of the gospel.
this gospel compendium will enable men, more effectively, to "teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom"; to "be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel,in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient" for them "to understand." (D and C 88:77-7
For the work itself, I assume sole and full responsibility. Observant students, however, will note that the four standard works of the Church are the chief sources of authority quoted and that literally tens of thousands of scriptural quotations and citations are woven into the text material.
Where added explanations and interpretations were deemed essential, they have been taken from such recognized doctrinal authorities as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, and Joseph Fielding Smith.
Two persons have been particularly helpful in the actual preparation of the work: 1. Velma Harvey, my very able and competent secretary, who with unbounded devotion and insight has typed manuscripts, checked references, proofread, and worked out many technical details; and 2. Joseph Fielding Smith , Jr., my brother in law, who both set the type and made many valuable suggestions as to content and construction.
Abundant needed and important counsel has also come from Milton R. Hunter, my colleague on the First Council of the Seventy; Marvin Wallin, of Bookcraft; and Thomas S. Moson, of the deseret News Press. Salt Lake City, Utah June 1, 1958 --Bruce R. McConkie.
Keep in mind Bruce stated He looks to people Like Joseph Smith and Bringham Young as recognized doctrinal authorities. So with that in mind, Is a Challenge as it were, Issued By Bruce R.McConkie.
I have read all 4 standard works. I find nothing at all in the Book of Mormon to prove it is inspired by God as LDS claim. Bruce states we can find hundreds of topics, I would like to issue a Challenge to all my Latter-day saint friends to bring forth just 10 topics of your choice, compare them to the Bible and show me how they are a more accurate display of the Gospel. Please keep in mind, I am following Acts 17:11 and 1st peter 3:15. Then after you read Bruce's Challenge, I lovingly added a list of things That LDS feel are core doctrine yet cannot be found in the BoM. This matter has everlasting eternal consequences. sincerely Rick b.
In the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R. McConkie, under the title Book of Mormon.
bruce says the Purpose of the book of mormon is this.
1. To bear record of Christ, certifying in plainness and with clarity of his divine sonship and mission, proving irrefutably that he is the Redeemer and Saviour.
2. To teach the doctrines of the gospel in such a pure and perfect way that the plan of salvation will be clearly revealed; and
3. To stand as a witness to all the world that Joseph Smith was the Lord's anointed through whom the foundation was laid for the great latter-day work of restoration. Almost all of the doctrines of the gospel are taught in the Book of Mormon with much greater clarity and perfection than those same doctrines are revealed in the Bible. Anyone who will place in parallel columns the teachings of these two great books on such subjects as the atonement, plan of salvation, gathering of Israel, baptism, gifts of the spirit, miracles, revelation, faith, Charity, ( or ANY of a HUNDRED OTHER SUBJECTS), will find conclusive proof of the superiority of the Book of Mormon teachings.
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that Elohim (God the Father in Mormonism) was once a mortal man and that he was not always God?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God has a body of flesh and bones?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God is married in heaven?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that men can become Gods?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that temple participation is necessary to become exalted?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach the blood of Christ does not cleanse certain sins?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it say there is more than one God?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it say males must hold either the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthood?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that there are "three degrees of glory"?
In the Original 1958 Edition to the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R.McConkie He states In the Preface:
This Work on Mormon Doctrine Is unique--the first book of it's kind ever published.
It is the first major attempt to digest, explain, and analyze all of the important doctrines of the kingdom.
It is the first extensive compendium of the whole gospel--the first attempt to publish an encyclopedic commentary covering the whole field of revealed religion.
True, there are many Bible commentaries, dictionaries, and encyclopedias; but they all abound in apostate, sectarian notions. Also, there are many sound gospel texts on special subjects.
But never before has a comprehensive attempt been made to define and outline, in a brief manner, all of the basic principles of salvation--and to do it from the perspective of all revelation, both ancient and modern.
This work on Mormon Doctrine is designed to help persons seeking salvation to gain that knowledge of God and his laws without which they cannot hope for an inheritance in the celestial city.
Since it is impossible foe a man to be saved in ignorance of God and his laws and since a man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge of Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation, it follows that men are obligated at their peril to learn and apply the true doctrines of the gospel.
this gospel compendium will enable men, more effectively, to "teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom"; to "be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel,in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient" for them "to understand." (D and C 88:77-7
For the work itself, I assume sole and full responsibility. Observant students, however, will note that the four standard works of the Church are the chief sources of authority quoted and that literally tens of thousands of scriptural quotations and citations are woven into the text material.
Where added explanations and interpretations were deemed essential, they have been taken from such recognized doctrinal authorities as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, and Joseph Fielding Smith.
Two persons have been particularly helpful in the actual preparation of the work: 1. Velma Harvey, my very able and competent secretary, who with unbounded devotion and insight has typed manuscripts, checked references, proofread, and worked out many technical details; and 2. Joseph Fielding Smith , Jr., my brother in law, who both set the type and made many valuable suggestions as to content and construction.
Abundant needed and important counsel has also come from Milton R. Hunter, my colleague on the First Council of the Seventy; Marvin Wallin, of Bookcraft; and Thomas S. Moson, of the deseret News Press. Salt Lake City, Utah June 1, 1958 --Bruce R. McConkie.
Keep in mind Bruce stated He looks to people Like Joseph Smith and Bringham Young as recognized doctrinal authorities. So with that in mind, Is a Challenge as it were, Issued By Bruce R.McConkie.
I have read all 4 standard works. I find nothing at all in the Book of Mormon to prove it is inspired by God as LDS claim. Bruce states we can find hundreds of topics, I would like to issue a Challenge to all my Latter-day saint friends to bring forth just 10 topics of your choice, compare them to the Bible and show me how they are a more accurate display of the Gospel. Please keep in mind, I am following Acts 17:11 and 1st peter 3:15. Then after you read Bruce's Challenge, I lovingly added a list of things That LDS feel are core doctrine yet cannot be found in the BoM. This matter has everlasting eternal consequences. sincerely Rick b.
In the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R. McConkie, under the title Book of Mormon.
bruce says the Purpose of the book of mormon is this.
1. To bear record of Christ, certifying in plainness and with clarity of his divine sonship and mission, proving irrefutably that he is the Redeemer and Saviour.
2. To teach the doctrines of the gospel in such a pure and perfect way that the plan of salvation will be clearly revealed; and
3. To stand as a witness to all the world that Joseph Smith was the Lord's anointed through whom the foundation was laid for the great latter-day work of restoration. Almost all of the doctrines of the gospel are taught in the Book of Mormon with much greater clarity and perfection than those same doctrines are revealed in the Bible. Anyone who will place in parallel columns the teachings of these two great books on such subjects as the atonement, plan of salvation, gathering of Israel, baptism, gifts of the spirit, miracles, revelation, faith, Charity, ( or ANY of a HUNDRED OTHER SUBJECTS), will find conclusive proof of the superiority of the Book of Mormon teachings.
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that Elohim (God the Father in Mormonism) was once a mortal man and that he was not always God?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God has a body of flesh and bones?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God is married in heaven?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that men can become Gods?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that temple participation is necessary to become exalted?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach the blood of Christ does not cleanse certain sins?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it say there is more than one God?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it say males must hold either the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthood?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that there are "three degrees of glory"?
Wednesday, February 04, 2009
LDS using Deception?
GB, I posted this topic back in April of 2006, It is still on my blog and no one ever replied to it, Since I feel this fits you and you feel it fits me, lets talk about it. Now Bill let me add this, I believe you are like this and I stated why, I asked a question about a false prophecy by JS, You refused to give an honest answer and say, Yes it never came to pass but here is why, or you never said, Rick your wrong it did come to pass and here is why.
Instead you said, Jesus said this will come to pass and it never did, so either Jesus and Joseph are both Frauds, or it did come to pass and they are both Truthful. Bill, that is not answering my question. Then I even told you, I will answer your question on how it did come to pass, you will not agree with my answer, then after that you will still not answer my question, and guess what, you proved to be a wolf in sheeps clothing.
So Bill I will state up front, You need to give spefic answers with the reason why I am supposedly lying and being dishonest or I will simply remove you from the blog, I am not going to get into this, you refuse to answer question and simply come on and say, Rick your wrong because I said so, that is not an honest answer and I refuse you keep playing games with you. Below is the topic.
Topic from 2006 to discuss
I have noticed over the Years, What I feel may be the use of Deception. The Dictionary definfes Deception as,
De·cep·tion
Pronunciation: di-'sep-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : an act of deceiving
2 : something that deceives : DECEIT
Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
deception
1: a misleading falsehood [syn: misrepresentation, deceit] 2: the act of deceiving [syn: deceit, dissembling, dissimulation] 3: an illusory feat; considered magical by naive observers [syn: magic trick, conjuring trick, trick, magic, legerdemain, conjuration, illusion]
.
Now the Main part of the issue of Deception I want to focus on is this:
1: a misleading falsehood [syn: misrepresentation, deceit]
.
In my years of sharing the Gospel with Mormons, I have noticed way to often, this Use of misleading falsehood. What I mean by, I notice this, Is this. I will talk with Mormon Missionary's for example, And I will ask them, What do you think or believe about the Bible. They will say, We(I) believe the Bible to be the word of God.
They simply stop short, But I know the Articles of faith, I point out that According to Articles of faith number 8.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
Notice, that when I ask the Mormons what they think/believe about the Bible, they seem to forget the words, as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
So simply by saying, We Believe the Bible to be the Word of God, and leaving off the rest is a form of Deception. This is allowing the LDS member to lead people to believe something that even the LDS do not believe. I notice the LDS also do this when I ask, who do you believe Jesus is, Or what do you believe About Jesus.
The Mormons will tell me they believe Jesus is the son of God. The Problem I have with this is, First off those of us who are Bible believing Christians, Believe in the Trinity and One God only. But when Mormons say they believe Jesus is the Son of God, many Christians would think the LDS are saying they believe in the Trinity and one God only. But I know as well as the LDS members that they believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers who were either Created or were once men first, This depends on which view you hold.
Either way, this again is a form of deception. I am sure some LDS members will say that Christians will or due use Deception, This may be true? But if it is I honestly am not aware of it, and I don't use deception. I feel if the LDS really do have the true Gospel, then they should have no use for lying and deception. But if they need to do that, then they really should question if they are following a true beliefs or a lie.
If LDS have examples of Christians Doing this, please post them, I am very opposed to anyone having to lie or deceive to spread the gospel. I also am posting this topic, because I want Christians to be aware of this LDS tactic and point it out when it happens. And I want the LDS to be aware of this, just in case they do this and in all honesty they never realized they were doing it.
Instead you said, Jesus said this will come to pass and it never did, so either Jesus and Joseph are both Frauds, or it did come to pass and they are both Truthful. Bill, that is not answering my question. Then I even told you, I will answer your question on how it did come to pass, you will not agree with my answer, then after that you will still not answer my question, and guess what, you proved to be a wolf in sheeps clothing.
So Bill I will state up front, You need to give spefic answers with the reason why I am supposedly lying and being dishonest or I will simply remove you from the blog, I am not going to get into this, you refuse to answer question and simply come on and say, Rick your wrong because I said so, that is not an honest answer and I refuse you keep playing games with you. Below is the topic.
Topic from 2006 to discuss
I have noticed over the Years, What I feel may be the use of Deception. The Dictionary definfes Deception as,
De·cep·tion
Pronunciation: di-'sep-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : an act of deceiving
2 : something that deceives : DECEIT
Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
deception
1: a misleading falsehood [syn: misrepresentation, deceit] 2: the act of deceiving [syn: deceit, dissembling, dissimulation] 3: an illusory feat; considered magical by naive observers [syn: magic trick, conjuring trick, trick, magic, legerdemain, conjuration, illusion]
.
Now the Main part of the issue of Deception I want to focus on is this:
1: a misleading falsehood [syn: misrepresentation, deceit]
.
In my years of sharing the Gospel with Mormons, I have noticed way to often, this Use of misleading falsehood. What I mean by, I notice this, Is this. I will talk with Mormon Missionary's for example, And I will ask them, What do you think or believe about the Bible. They will say, We(I) believe the Bible to be the word of God.
They simply stop short, But I know the Articles of faith, I point out that According to Articles of faith number 8.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
Notice, that when I ask the Mormons what they think/believe about the Bible, they seem to forget the words, as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
So simply by saying, We Believe the Bible to be the Word of God, and leaving off the rest is a form of Deception. This is allowing the LDS member to lead people to believe something that even the LDS do not believe. I notice the LDS also do this when I ask, who do you believe Jesus is, Or what do you believe About Jesus.
The Mormons will tell me they believe Jesus is the son of God. The Problem I have with this is, First off those of us who are Bible believing Christians, Believe in the Trinity and One God only. But when Mormons say they believe Jesus is the Son of God, many Christians would think the LDS are saying they believe in the Trinity and one God only. But I know as well as the LDS members that they believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers who were either Created or were once men first, This depends on which view you hold.
Either way, this again is a form of deception. I am sure some LDS members will say that Christians will or due use Deception, This may be true? But if it is I honestly am not aware of it, and I don't use deception. I feel if the LDS really do have the true Gospel, then they should have no use for lying and deception. But if they need to do that, then they really should question if they are following a true beliefs or a lie.
If LDS have examples of Christians Doing this, please post them, I am very opposed to anyone having to lie or deceive to spread the gospel. I also am posting this topic, because I want Christians to be aware of this LDS tactic and point it out when it happens. And I want the LDS to be aware of this, just in case they do this and in all honesty they never realized they were doing it.
Wednesday, December 17, 2008
Joseph Smith's Vision.
I want to discuss a topic found in both the 1920 edition of the triple combination found in the very end of the book, and in the book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. on pages 106-107.
Vision of the Celestial Kingdom.
Here are a few problems I find with this vision Joseph Smith had. Read over the requirements for salvation given by Bruce R. McConkie found in the book "Mormon Doctrine," under "Salvation." This is also posted on my blog, under Will all be saved,Part 2
The requirements given do not line up with this vision. According to this vision, God states through the Prophet Joseph Smith, Anyone who died without hearing the gospel, if they would have heard the gospel and believed it, would be allowed to enter the Celestial heaven. If this is in fact true, then why even bother doing Baptism for the dead? I figure, if they would have believed, then they will be saved. Also, if this is true, why bother sending out Mormon Missionaries?
We also see Mormon Prophets both contradicting the Lord and confusing the people. If this vision is true, then we read about Prophets leading the LDS people astray. Here are a few examples. In the book, Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Student Manual, we read on page 131, under the title, (1-13) Exaltation Is Based on Celestial Marriage.
These things are not only taught by Bruce McConkie and the Student Manuel, but also by the Prophet Joseph F. Smith. We also read in Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Student Manual, pp 30-31, a modern day parable given by the LDS PROPHET, Spencer Kimball. In short it states that if we are not married in the temple, we could be shut out of the 3rd heaven.
The Prophet Spencer Kimball in "Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, pg. 30, makes it very clear that we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. He gives a list of 6 things called, (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). It says that when you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about:
Then we read in "Gospel Principles," pg. 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). We are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the Sabbath Day holy or obey the Word of Wisdom. We are not repentant if we do not sustain the authorities of the church nor love the Lord and our fellow man.
Add to that pg. 241 of "Gospel Principles," eternal marriage is ESSENTIAL FOR EXALTATION (emphasis mine). Our exaltation depends on marriage. Then over on pg. 242, it says, "and in order to obtain the highest, a man MUST ENTER INTO THIS ORDER OF THE PRIESTHOOD [MEANING THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT OF MARRIAGE];" "and if he does not, he cannot obtain it" (D and C 131:1-3)
Now with all that said, how is it that Joseph Smith's brother does none of this, yet is saved in the Celestial Kingdom? Notice, Joseph Smith even states he marvelled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom.
We read in the Dictionary at Dictionary.com, the meaning of the word marvel is:
If Joseph was surprised, it tells me that he did not expect to see his brother there. But why does his brother get special treatment? Please explain to me, why would I want to be an LDS member and do all the work required to enter the temple, and be taught the idea that I might not get into the highest heaven? If I read only the book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, believe his vision to be true, and die, I believe I could enter the celestial heaven by default, without any works.
Does anyone care to explain why the LDS church is built on a foundation of sand and confusion? Rick b
Vision of the Celestial Kingdom.
On the twenty-first day of January, 1836, the First Presidency, and a number of presiding brethren in the Church, assembled in the Kirtland Temple where they engaged in the ordinances of the endowment, as far as it had at the time been revealed. After this was done the Prophet states that "All of the Presidency laid their hands upon me, and pronounced upon my head many prophecies and blessings, many of which I shall not notice at this time." "All of the Presidency" included Oliver Cowdery and Father Joseph Smith as well as the two counselors, Sidney Rigdon and Frederick G. Williams. Following this ordinance the following vision and revelation were givin to the Prophet, making known to him and through him to the Church one of the most important principles pertaining to the salvation of men.
The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell. I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire; also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son. I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold. I saw Father Adam and Abraham, and my father and my mother, my brother, Alvin, that has long since slept, and maravelled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins..
Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying-
REVELATION
All who have died without a knowledge of this Gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom, for I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability, are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven. D.H.C. 2:380-381.
Here are a few problems I find with this vision Joseph Smith had. Read over the requirements for salvation given by Bruce R. McConkie found in the book "Mormon Doctrine," under "Salvation." This is also posted on my blog, under Will all be saved,Part 2
The requirements given do not line up with this vision. According to this vision, God states through the Prophet Joseph Smith, Anyone who died without hearing the gospel, if they would have heard the gospel and believed it, would be allowed to enter the Celestial heaven. If this is in fact true, then why even bother doing Baptism for the dead? I figure, if they would have believed, then they will be saved. Also, if this is true, why bother sending out Mormon Missionaries?
We also see Mormon Prophets both contradicting the Lord and confusing the people. If this vision is true, then we read about Prophets leading the LDS people astray. Here are a few examples. In the book, Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Student Manual, we read on page 131, under the title, (1-13) Exaltation Is Based on Celestial Marriage.
If you want salvation in the fullest, that is exaltation in the kingdom of God, so that you may become his sons and daughters, you have got to go into the temple of the Lord and receive these holy ordinances which belong to that house, which cannot be had elsewhere. No man shall receive the fullness of eternity, of exaltation, alone; no woman shall receive that blessing alone; but man and wife, when they receive the sealing power in the temple of the Lord, if they thereafter keep all the commandments, shall pass on to exaltation, and shall continue and become like the Lord. And that is the destiny of men; that is what the Lord desires for his children. (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43-44.)
These things are not only taught by Bruce McConkie and the Student Manuel, but also by the Prophet Joseph F. Smith. We also read in Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Student Manual, pp 30-31, a modern day parable given by the LDS PROPHET, Spencer Kimball. In short it states that if we are not married in the temple, we could be shut out of the 3rd heaven.
The Prophet Spencer Kimball in "Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, pg. 30, makes it very clear that we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. He gives a list of 6 things called, (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). It says that when you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about:
1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. Overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.
Then we read in "Gospel Principles," pg. 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). We are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the Sabbath Day holy or obey the Word of Wisdom. We are not repentant if we do not sustain the authorities of the church nor love the Lord and our fellow man.
Add to that pg. 241 of "Gospel Principles," eternal marriage is ESSENTIAL FOR EXALTATION (emphasis mine). Our exaltation depends on marriage. Then over on pg. 242, it says, "and in order to obtain the highest, a man MUST ENTER INTO THIS ORDER OF THE PRIESTHOOD [MEANING THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT OF MARRIAGE];" "and if he does not, he cannot obtain it" (D and C 131:1-3)
Now with all that said, how is it that Joseph Smith's brother does none of this, yet is saved in the Celestial Kingdom? Notice, Joseph Smith even states he marvelled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom.
We read in the Dictionary at Dictionary.com, the meaning of the word marvel is:
1. One that evokes surprise, admiration, or wonder. See Synonyms at wonder.
2. Strong surprise; astonishment.
v. mar·veled, also mar·velled mar·vel·ing, mar·vel·ling mar·vels, mar·vels
v. intr.
To become filled with wonder or astonishment.
If Joseph was surprised, it tells me that he did not expect to see his brother there. But why does his brother get special treatment? Please explain to me, why would I want to be an LDS member and do all the work required to enter the temple, and be taught the idea that I might not get into the highest heaven? If I read only the book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, believe his vision to be true, and die, I believe I could enter the celestial heaven by default, without any works.
Does anyone care to explain why the LDS church is built on a foundation of sand and confusion? Rick b
Thursday, October 02, 2008
D and C 129
Read D and C 129 below, I will explain at the bottom what my point is.
I was talking with a Mormon and opened up to this chapter, I Read out loud to him verses 1-4, then I stopped and offered to shake his hand, he did not exactly want to, but he did. I gave him a very firm handshake, then flat out asked him, did you feel my hand shake, he said yes, so then I read the rest of the chapter to him.
after I was done, I said to him, since you felt my hand shake, this proves I am a messanger from God, and I have a message for you. Joseph Smith is a false prophet and the BoM is not from God. The Mormon smiled and told me he honestly has no answer for me, but he did smile and liked that. so this is one you can do with mormons and see how they reply. Rick b
Instructions given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, February 9, 1843, making known three grand keys by which the correct nature of ministering angels and spirits may be distinguished. HC 5: 267.
1–3, There are both resurrected and spirit bodies in heaven; 4–9, Keys are given whereby messengers from beyond the veil may be identified.
1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—
7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to
deceive; but he will still deliver his message.
8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.
9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.
I was talking with a Mormon and opened up to this chapter, I Read out loud to him verses 1-4, then I stopped and offered to shake his hand, he did not exactly want to, but he did. I gave him a very firm handshake, then flat out asked him, did you feel my hand shake, he said yes, so then I read the rest of the chapter to him.
after I was done, I said to him, since you felt my hand shake, this proves I am a messanger from God, and I have a message for you. Joseph Smith is a false prophet and the BoM is not from God. The Mormon smiled and told me he honestly has no answer for me, but he did smile and liked that. so this is one you can do with mormons and see how they reply. Rick b
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