Kathy said:
How much do you know about these councils? Who made the creeds up? How accurately does it reflect Bible teachings?
Rick says, Nothing, dont know and dont care to the other 2.
Some people, I mean Some believers will or might take great offence at my view, But I read the Bible and the Bible only. The creeds are not and never will be scripture. The creeds are just like a lot of books out their on the market, they are well meaning believers trying to share their thoughts on scripture and help people out, yet like the creeds, no matter how much of the bible they read and quote from, they are not the real Word. the Bible in Acts 17:11 says search the scripture, not search the creeds.
I could also say this, what did believers do before the creeds existed? they read the word of God. What about LDS, They try and point out how the creeds are not scripture, so they say you christians are way off because you have these creeds, yet LDS are blind to the fact that they have LDS book stores, and LDS authors and web sites that have mere men giving out their own thoughts, kinda like the creeds. Why is it ok for LDS to use books written by men in the same fashion as believers using the Creeds?
Kathy said:
"In the year A.D. 325 the Roman emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea to address—among other things—the growing issue of God’s alleged “trinity in unity.” What emerged from the heated contentions of churchmen, philosophers, and ecclesiastical dignitaries came to be known (after another 125 years and three more major councils) as the Nicene Creed, with later reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed. These various evolutions and iterations of creeds—and others to come over the centuries—declared the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost to be abstract, absolute, transcendent, immanent, consubstantial, coeternal, and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions and dwelling outside space and time. In such creeds all three members are separate persons, but they are a single being, the oft-noted “mystery of the trinity.” They are three distinct persons, yet not three Gods but one. All three persons are incomprehensible, yet it is one God who is incomprehensible." (Jeffrey R. Holland, Oct 2007 conference)
Harper’s Bible Dictionary (not a Mormon dictionary) records that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].” (Paul F. Achtemeier, ed. (1985), 1099)
Rick says:
Just because the Word Trinity is not found in the Bible does not mean the trinity is false, the Concept or principal is found in the bible. Here is scripture.
We read in Genesis 1:1 God (Elohim) this is a plural noun speaking of more than one person. Yet (Bara) is the Hebrew verb for Elohim but it is in the singular. We find 3 in one. We again find this in verses 3:22 where God says man has become like one of us. And we find it in 11:7 at the tower of babal, 3 in one. Then we read in the 10 commandments number 3 says You shall have no other gods before me.
We read in Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear 0 Israel the Lord our God is ONE." God, Not 3 separate Gods. Now I know mormons claim we are not worshiping other gods, Just God the Father. But the scriptures clearly teach there are no other Gods period. Read Isaiah 45:6,14,18,21,22 46:5,9 47:8,10 and 48:12 these all teach their are no gods before me and none will be after me, God states I know of NO OTHER Gods. So if the mormon Godhead is true, and God was once a man as mormonism teaches then his Father would be a God, so God would know about him would he not? If Jesus and the Holy spirit are Gods, God the Father would know about them would he not? So if God the Father states their are no Gods before him or after him How can Worthy LDS members become gods, or how could God have a father who is a God, or how could Jesus or the Holy Spirit be Gods and God the Father not know about them? This tells me we can find the 3 in One Godhead (Trinity).
Then we can read many places in the Old Testament Like Joshua 5 for example about the Spirit of the Lord. This angle of the Lord tells Joshua to remove his sandals for he is on Holy Ground, we read God saying the same thing to Moses in the burning bush. Here we find an (Angle) Saying your on Holy Ground and allowing a mere human to worship Him. Every case in the bible where God sent an angle to give a message to someone, and that person tried to worship the angle we find the angle saying get up, get up do not worship me. The one angle that wanted worship was lucifer and look what happened to him.
Now we read in Isaiah chapter 6:3 The angles are flying and saying "Holy Holy Holy", Now are they saying Holy to 3 different Gods Or One God but in the triune form? Now Read Revelation 4:8 again we find the angles Saying "Holy Holy Holy", they are speaking about 1 God. We find the trinity. Read in Genesis 48:15 When Jacob is about to bless Josephs 2 Sons, Jacob mentions God twice then mentions the Angle who redeemed me, How can a plain angle redeem anyone? I see the Trinity here. Not 3 separate Gods.
We read in Exodus, God speaks to Moses in the burning bush, God says "I AM" Read over in John 8:58 Jesus says "I AM", this is the same "I AM", God used in Exodus, Jesus is not saying he is a god, He IS saying He IS GOD. Even the Jews understood this, that is why they tried to stone him. We read in Exodus 17:6 God the Father told Moses to strike the rock and water will come forth, Then over in Numbers 20:8 We read Moses was supposed to SPEAK to the rock and water would come forth, instead he struck the rock again. Then we read in 1Corinthians 10:4 that Rock was Christ. The example God was trying to set up but Moses blew it was, Jesus was that Rock, he was crucified for us, The Rock was struck. From that point on we only need to speak to Christ (The Rock) Not crucify him all over again (Strike him again) Here we see hints of the Trinity.
Know lets look at Verses that say Jesus is God, not a god.
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God."
Romans 9:5 "Of whom are the fathers and from whom according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God, amen." Notice it says Christ is the blessed God.
Titus 2:13 "Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ." Here again we read Jesus is God.
1st John 5:20 "And we know that the son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we me know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in his son Jesus Christ. This is the True God and eternal life."
Acts 5:3-9 Here we see How the Holy Spirit is God, Not a god.
Act 5:3 "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?"
Act 5:4 "While it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."
Act 5:5 "And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things."
Act 5:6 "And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him."
Act 5:7 "And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in."
Act 5:8 "And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much."
Act 5:9 "Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out."
We read here how he lied to God then he lied to the spirit and it made the spirit out to be God.
So here again we find the trinity, God the father is God, we find the scriptures teach Jesus IS GOD, and we find scripture that states the Holy Spirit is God.
We read in Matthew 28:19 Where it says to make disciples of all nations and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit, this is said in the singular not the plural.
We see the trinity in the Death of Christ. Who was responsible for his death?
The father, Jesus says in Psalm 22:15 You, this You is Jesus speaking of the father being responsible for his death. 22: "You have brought me to the dust of death."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that HE (God) Gave his only begotten Son."
Romans 8:32 "He (God the father) who did not spare his own Son."
But we know read Jesus was responsible for his death.
John 10:18 "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down myself."
Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ, It is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me, And the life which I now live in the flesh ; I live by faith in the son of God, who loved me and GAVE HIMSELF for me."
Now we read in Hebrews 9:14"how it was the Spirit of God who was responsible for the death of Christ."
9:14 "How much more shall the Blood of Christ, who through the Eternal spirit offered himself with out spot to God." Here we again find the trinity.
Now lets find the trinity with in the creation. Who created the heavens and the earth?
God the father. Psalms 102:25 "Of old You laid the foundations of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands."
Jesus Created the Heavens and the earth, John 1:10-11
10:"He was in the World, and the World was made through him, and the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own and his own did not receive him."
Colossians 1:16 "For by Him (the Him Is Jesus, read verse 15) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through him and for him."
The Sprit Created.
Genesis 1:2 "The earth was with out form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters."
Job 26:13"By His Spirit He adorned the heavens; His hand pierced the fleeing serpent."
OK, Now lets move on to some verses in the Book of Mormon that show the Trinity.
Under the page that states "an account written by the Hand of Mormon upon plates taken from the plates of Nephi" it says near the bottom of the page in my copy, "And Also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD"
Question, how can Jesus be THE ETERNAL GOD, if He is a separate God?
Now under the testimony of the 3 witnesses, it ends by saying, "And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, WHICH IS ONE GOD. Amen."
Here we read in the oringal 1830 edition, 1st Nephi 11:21 And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father. Not only has this been changed from the oringal, but how can the Lamb of God (Jesus) be the eternal God?
Read 1 Nephi 11:32 1830 edition "And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God (Jesus), that He was taken by the people; yea, the everlasting God, was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record." Again the Son is called the Eternal God. why? also why the change or addition of words?
Here is another very serious change, 1st Nephi 13:40 1830 edition. "And shall make known to all kindred's, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto Him, or they cannot be saved."
Now here in a more recent edition, 1920, 2 Nephi 26:12b says, "Be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God." Yet again Jesus is called the Eternal God.
2 Nephi 31:21b says, "And now, behold, this is the Doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is ONE God, without end. Amen."
Notice they say they are ONE God and it is the doctrine of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
Mosiah 7:26
26 "And a prophet of the Lord have they slain; yea, a chosen man of God, who told them of their wickedness and abominations, and prophesied of many things which are to come, yea, even the coming of Christ."
27 "And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth."
28 "And now, because he said this, they did put him to death; and many more things did they do which brought down the wrath of God upon them. Therefore, who wondereth that they are in bondage, and that they are smitten with sore afflictions?"
In the verses Above we read that they killed people for teaching Jesus IS GOD, Not A God, But God.
Mosiah 15
1 "And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people."
2 "And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son."
3 "The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son."
4 "And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth."
5 "And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffered temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffered himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people."
6 "And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth."
7 "Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father."
8 "And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men."
Again God is Jesus, Jesus is God.
Mosiah 16:15
15 "Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen."
And LDS believe the trinity is a false teaching, your own book teaches it. Not to mention some changes to deny this were made between the 1830 and 1980 edition. Why?
Know we read here in Alma, a Mormon Prophet claiming Jesus is the eternal God and their is only One God, not Two or Three or more.
Alma 11:21-41
21 "And this Zeezrom began to question Amulek, saying: Will ye answer me a few questions which I shall ask you? Now Zeezrom was a man who was expert in the devices of the devil, that he might destroy that which was good; therefore, he said unto Amulek: Will ye answer the questions which I shall put unto you?"
22 "And Amulek said unto him: Yea, if it be according to the Spirit of the Lord, which is in me; for I shall say nothing which is contrary to the Spirit of the Lord. And Zeezrom said unto him: Behold, here are six onties of silver, and all these will I give thee if thou wilt deny the existence of a Supreme Being."
23 "Now Amulek said: O thou child of hell, why tempt ye me? Knowest thou that the righteous yieldeth to no such temptations?"
24"Believest thou that there is no God? I say unto you, Nay, thou knowest that there is a God, but thou lovest that lucre more than him."
25 "And now thou hast lied before God unto me. Thou saidst unto me—Behold these six onties, which are of great worth, I will give unto thee—when thou hadst it in thy heart to retain them from me; and it was only thy desire that I should deny the true and living God, that thou mightest have cause to destroy me. And now behold, for this great evil thou shalt have thy reward."
26 "And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God?"
27 "And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God."
28 "Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?"
29 "And he answered, No."
30 "Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?"
31 "And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me."
32 "And Zeezrom said again: Who is he that shall come? Is it the Son of God?"
33 "And he said unto him, Yea."
34 "And Zeezrom said again: Shall he save his people in their sins? And Amulek answered and said unto him: I say unto you he shall not, for it is impossible for him to deny his word."
35 "Now Zeezrom said unto the people: See that ye remember these things; for he said there is but one God; yet he saith that the Son of God shall come, but he shall not save his people—as though he had authority to command God."
36 "Now Amulek saith again unto him: Behold thou hast lied, for thou sayest that I spake as though I had authority to command God because I said he shall not save his people in their sins."
37 "And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins."
38 "Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?"
39 "And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;"
40 "And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else."
41 "Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be the loosing of the bands of death; for behold, the day cometh that all shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be judged according to their works."
OK, Now I said the LDS Godhead is confusing and not the Trinity. Here are some reasons why this is so. I just gave much LDS scripture on the Trinity. Yet the LDS has made major changes to teach otherwise. Also I gave a discourse in Alma with a Mormon Prophet who is teaching ONE GOD ONLY. I gave much scripture from the Bible, Book of Isaiah Where God said their are no other Gods. Now we read in D and C 1:14 "And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people."
Are you listing to the Lord, The apostles, and the Prophets? I showed you what they said and teach. But lets add some more confusing LDS scripture. Read Pearl of Great Price, book of Moses 1:6b "But their is no God beside me, and all things are present with me." Even the pearl teaches no Gods besides God alone.
But then to add even more confusion we read in the book of Abraham chapter 4,"God says, Him and the other Gods that he sat in counsel with created the earth. So Did God and the prophet Alma lie when they said their are no other Gods? One Last confusing Tidbit. I own the oringal Doctrine and Covenants with the oringal Lectures of Faith included. They teach that the Holy Spirit is the Mind of God, not a God. So even though LDS no longer hold the lectures as Doctrine, It was taught by the (Prophet) Joseph Smith, And he taught the Holy Spirit is the Mind of God. Which is it? Was JS wrong? If so what else could he be wrong about.
Wednesday, July 30, 2008
Wednesday, July 23, 2008
Letter 2
Kathy said God said this:
"It does say that God is displeased when anyone teaches for doctrine the ideas of men."
Then Kathy says,
"What creeds is He talking about?"
Rick says:
Where does God in the above statement say "Creeds"?
Kathy uses or should I say, adds the words Creeds, Then while were at it, Show me this from the Bible, Give me chapter and verse, "It does say that God is displeased when anyone teaches for doctrine the ideas of men." It simple is not their. As a matter of Fact I can give a verse where Paul Speaks and says, this is from me not God, so did Paul do what JS claims God is displeased with?
Read "1Cr 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: [It is] good for a man not to touch a woman.
1Cr 7:2 Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
1Cr 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
1Cr 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
1Cr 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except [it be] with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
1Cr 7:6 But I speak this by permission, [and] not of commandment.
1Cr 7:7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that."
I am speaking about verse 6.
Kathy says:
Well, I think to start with it is the Nicene Creed and other creeds and beliefs that came out of the church councils of the 4th and 5th century and are accepted as true doctrinal statements of the gospel by many churches.
Rick says: First off, you start by saying "I THINK"
Your thinking something is not evidence, then you say, "and are accepted as true doctrinal statements of the gospel by many churches."
Can you support that with evidence? By evidence I mean, name the Churchs that except these creeds and teach them as Doctrine, that will be tough since you have to have gone to these Churchs to know this and if you did not go to them, then you must have contacted them and asked them. Then after you give names and hard evidence to prove this, let me add, I go to Calvary Chapel Church and we do not mention, teach or hold to these creeds. So even if their are Churchs that teach this, thats like saying, The FLDS call them selves Mormons and they preach and teach Pologamy, so does this mean LDS teach and believe the same? Of course not.
Kathy says: "By the way, it is interesting to me that nowhere in the Bible is there an example of doctrine or revelation being given through a large group of people (council or committee) where they debate and vote on what is true."
Rick says: This is not exactly true, here is the only example that is found in the Bible, "Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
Act 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and [of] the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:
Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood."
Now if that is not a group of men voting on something, and we can see it is not God saying to the men don't do this, then I don't know what else you would call it. So yes we see one account in scripture. Since the next section brings up the trinity and that will be long, I will reply later. Rick b
"It does say that God is displeased when anyone teaches for doctrine the ideas of men."
Then Kathy says,
"What creeds is He talking about?"
Rick says:
Where does God in the above statement say "Creeds"?
Kathy uses or should I say, adds the words Creeds, Then while were at it, Show me this from the Bible, Give me chapter and verse, "It does say that God is displeased when anyone teaches for doctrine the ideas of men." It simple is not their. As a matter of Fact I can give a verse where Paul Speaks and says, this is from me not God, so did Paul do what JS claims God is displeased with?
Read "1Cr 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: [It is] good for a man not to touch a woman.
1Cr 7:2 Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
1Cr 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
1Cr 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
1Cr 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except [it be] with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
1Cr 7:6 But I speak this by permission, [and] not of commandment.
1Cr 7:7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that."
I am speaking about verse 6.
Kathy says:
Well, I think to start with it is the Nicene Creed and other creeds and beliefs that came out of the church councils of the 4th and 5th century and are accepted as true doctrinal statements of the gospel by many churches.
Rick says: First off, you start by saying "I THINK"
Your thinking something is not evidence, then you say, "and are accepted as true doctrinal statements of the gospel by many churches."
Can you support that with evidence? By evidence I mean, name the Churchs that except these creeds and teach them as Doctrine, that will be tough since you have to have gone to these Churchs to know this and if you did not go to them, then you must have contacted them and asked them. Then after you give names and hard evidence to prove this, let me add, I go to Calvary Chapel Church and we do not mention, teach or hold to these creeds. So even if their are Churchs that teach this, thats like saying, The FLDS call them selves Mormons and they preach and teach Pologamy, so does this mean LDS teach and believe the same? Of course not.
Kathy says: "By the way, it is interesting to me that nowhere in the Bible is there an example of doctrine or revelation being given through a large group of people (council or committee) where they debate and vote on what is true."
Rick says: This is not exactly true, here is the only example that is found in the Bible, "Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
Act 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and [of] the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:
Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood."
Now if that is not a group of men voting on something, and we can see it is not God saying to the men don't do this, then I don't know what else you would call it. So yes we see one account in scripture. Since the next section brings up the trinity and that will be long, I will reply later. Rick b
A Letter from an Ex-mormon.
Hello Everyone,
Well as I said Before, I post a lot on the Mormon coffee blog. Also know as the Answering lds website. Before they had the blog they had a Q and A section, I would answer question their and leave my e-mail address for people to write me with questions, It's great, over the years I have had about a dozen people, both LDS and believers write me, wanting to talk. I just recived a letter the other day from an Ex-Mormon trying to share Christ with her LDS sister.
So I am going to post the Letter she wrote with my reply to her, I will keep adding more in new posts as I both reply to her letter and then reply back with questions from her sister. I will post the first letter I got from her in Black. Also I removed all last names.
Rick,
Finally, after years of trying to my Mormon sister to discuss the church, she sends me this email. I think I finally got to her when I said that since she's planning on going on a mission this autumn with her husband, she might want to learn to ":give an answer for her faith." I'm just wondering if you have time to tell me how you would respond to her email.
Blessings,
Sara (BTW, I got your email off the answeringlds webcite)
Sara,
Since this is the second time that you have mentioned the statement of Joseph Smith and, since you said that " I'm just confused - hoping maybe you could clear that up for me.", I feel it important to help you understand what Joseph Smith said.
I give the following to help you understand Joseph Smith's teachings.
First, let me quote what Joseph Smith wrote:
I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those profesors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, verse 19)
Now what this did not say is that their "churches/ministers were an abomination."
What it does say is that "all their creeds were an abomination". To understand the work of Joseph Smith and the need for a restoration, you have to understand this statement. It follows that if the creeds are wrong, then the churches that believe in these creeds have intruduced errors into their teachings and "are teaching for doctrines the commandments of men (i.e. the inaccuracies in the creeds;" see Matt 15: 9)
It doesn't say that the other Churches don't have some truth, or that they don't do much good, or that they are not sincere in their desire to approach God or that they are not diligently trying to follow the gospel.
It does say that God is displeased when anyone teaches for doctrine the ideas of men.
What creeds is He talking about? Well, I think to start with it is the Nicene Creed and other creeds and beliefs that came out of the church councils of the 4th and 5th century and are accepted as true doctrinal statements of the gospel by many churc hes. By the way, it is interesting to me that nowhere in the Bible is there an example of doctrine or revelation being given through a large group of people (council or committee) where they debate and vote on what is true.
How much do you know about these councils? Who made the creeds up? How accurately does it reflect Bible teachings?
"In the year A.D. 325 the Roman emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea to address—among other things—the growing issue of God’s alleged “trinity in unity.” What emerged from the heated contentions of churchmen, philosophers, and ecclesiastical dignitaries came to be known (after another 125 years and three more major councils) as the Nicene Creed, with later reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed. These various evolutions and iterations of creeds—and others to come over the centuries—declared the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost to be abstract, absolute, transcendent, immanent, consubstantial, coeternal, and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions and dwelling outside space and time. In such creeds all three members are separate persons, but they are a single being, the oft-noted “mystery of the trinity.” They are three distinct persons, yet not three Gods but one. All three persons are incomprehensible, yet it is one God who is incomprehensible." (Jeffrey R. Holland, Oct 2007 conference)
Harper’s Bible Dictionary (not a Mormon dictionary) records that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].” (Paul F. Achtemeier, ed. (1985), 1099)
The controversy which you point out begins with the very understanding of the nature of God and the Godhead. Joseph Smith was told that the creeds were wrong and he learned for himself the very nature of God and Christ as he spoke to them. What is ironical is that in the premortal life we all understood this perfectly well and as soon as our premortal memory is restored it will be clear which doctrine is right and there will be no need for dicussion.
Now I recognize that alot more could be discussed about the creeds. But what the Joseph Smith story says is that the inacuracies in the "creeds" are a flaw in the doctrinal foundation of any church who accepts them. They lead away from Biblical understanding not toward it. And since the truth was not completely understood (evidence of that is the roughly 1,000 different Christian denominations all with some difference in their beliefs), therefore the need for a restoration of the gospel.
I do not expect you to believe this, but at least I hope you will quote Joseph Smith correctly.
=0 A
By the way, what do you believe about these creeds and the nature of God which they imply as compared to the belief that the Godhead is composed of 3 distinct personages with God, the Father, and the Son having glorified resurrected bodies?
Love,
Kathy
Kathy,
I take it you are not interested in doing the Bible study online???? You didn't give an answer.
When I finally saw the truth about Mromonism it was because a French pastor in Hungary had the courage to speak the truth to me. I would much rather have truth spoken to me than anything else. I guess we're polar opposites on that one.
I'm very confused about Mormonism because you quote from Catherine Marshall yet Joseph Smith said that all Christian churches/ministers (including her husband) were an abomination and their teachings wer false. Did the church change or did they just change the test of the First Vision? I'm just confused--hoping maybe you cuold clear that up for me.
Happy 60th! And yes, you are beginning to seem like Mom. Mom kept her world confined to within her four walls, pretty much.
Sara
NOW, Here is my first reply to Sara, I will reply in sections as it was so long. Rick b
Hello Sara,
Here is part of my reply for you. it is pretty long so I will send more later. Rick b
Hello Sara, I will break down the question and reply to it in sections. Also I don't know if you will even agree with me on my position of the creeds issue, so that might cause problems, but you can let me know your thoughts.
Kathy said:
"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, verse 19)
Now what this did not say is that their "churches/ministers were an abomination."
What it does say is that "all their creeds were an abomination". To understand the work of Joseph Smith and the need for a restoration, you have to understand this statement. It follows that if the creeds are wrong, then the churches that believe in these creeds have introduced errors into their teachings and "are teaching for doctrines the commandments of men (i.e. the inaccuracies in the creeds;" see Matt 15: 9)"
Rick Replies with.
Here are a few problems I have with this, When Jesus walked the earth he took issue with what the so-called religious leaders said and taught, He did not point out their so called creeds, he called the teachers to account, Scripture teaches us that the issues of the heart, flow from the mouth.
"
Mat 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Ma t 15:20 These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man."
Now let me go back over something again, Kathy said, JS said,
"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt;"
JS claims all the "Professors" are corrupt. So If JS claims God said this then how can Kathy say this,
"Now what this did not say is that their "churches/ministers were an abomination."
If the Church is a mere building, then it stands to reason a building cannot speak, But Jesus taught we the people are the church, Then are not these so called Professors just another title for the Minister? if so, then yes they are being called corrupt.
Remember As I pointed out, Jesus did call the religious leaders, ministers, teachers to account, even if they were teaching commandments of men. So Why would God change that when he spoke with JS?
Kathy said:
"What it does say is that "all their creeds were an abomination". To understand the work of Joseph Smith and the need for a restoration, you have to understand this statement. It follows that if the creeds are wrong, then the churches that believe in these creeds have intruduced errors into their teachings and "are teaching for doctrines the commandments of men (i.e. the inaccuracies in the c reeds;" see Matt 15: 9)"
Rick replys, Question? If Kathy Quotes from Matthew saying Jesus was rebuking them for teaching commandments of men, then why did Jesus not set the record straight right then and their? why did He wait till He died, Rose again then let almost 1800 years pass to bring around JS? Then after JS came on the scene, He found the Golden plates but buried them since he was told the time was not right, then he waited many years, this makes zero sense.
Kathy said:
"It doesn't say that the other Churches don't have some truth, or that they don't do much good, or that they are not sincere in their desire to approach God or that they are not diligently trying to follow the gospel."
Rick Said: Does Kathy not read the BoM or read so called teachers of Mormonism? Here is what the BoM says,
"1 Ne. 14: 3, 9-10, 17
3 And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell—yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, saith the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.
&nbs p; 9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.
1 Ne. 13: 6
6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.
1 Ne. 22: 23
23 For the time speedily shall come that all churches which are built up to get gain, and all those who are built up to get power over the flesh, and those who are built up to become popular i n the eyes of the world, and those who seek the lusts of the flesh and the things of the world, and to do all manner of iniquity; yea, in fine, all those who belong to the kingdom of the devil are they who need fear, and tremble, and quake; they are those who must be brought low in the dust; they are those who must be consumed as stubble; and this is according to the words of the prophet."
Now let me point out again, Kathy said: "It doesn't say that the other Churches don't have some truth, or that they don't do much good, or that they are not sincere in their desire to approach God or that they are not diligently trying to follow the gospel."
Rick says, Now please show me from those verse in the BoM where it teaches other churchs have some good teachings, or are trying to be honest. It simply does not teach that, so it seems Kathy is wrong.
Now here is what one LDS "teacher" teaches, and in his reply he quotes from the LDS BoM and Pearl. Let me first add that, Many LDS have even tried to get around the issue of the 1st Nephi quote, about their is only two churches. The LDS know that when the B.O.M Speaks about the True Church being the Lamb of God, it speaks about their Church. So it would stand to reason, ANY church that is Not LDS related does or could fall under the Church of the Devil.
"In the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R. McConkie Page 137-138 Under Church of the devil He says just what I said.
The titles church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify ALL Churchs or organizations of whatever name or nature-whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious-which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God.
Bruce goes on to say, under the same heading and page.
Any church or organization of any kind whatever which satisfies the innate religious longings of man and keeps him from coming to the saving truths of Christ and his gospel is therefore not of God.
Hence we find our Lord saying,
"he that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."(Matthew.12:30)
And hence we find Alma inviting the wicked to repent and join the true Church of Christ and become the sheep of the Good Shepherd.
"And now if ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? he ask's. "Behold, I say unto you, that the devil is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold; and know, who can deny this? Behold, I say unto you, whosoever denieth this is a liar and a child of the devil"(Alma 5:39; Jos. Smith2:19.)"
Well as I said Before, I post a lot on the Mormon coffee blog. Also know as the Answering lds website. Before they had the blog they had a Q and A section, I would answer question their and leave my e-mail address for people to write me with questions, It's great, over the years I have had about a dozen people, both LDS and believers write me, wanting to talk. I just recived a letter the other day from an Ex-Mormon trying to share Christ with her LDS sister.
So I am going to post the Letter she wrote with my reply to her, I will keep adding more in new posts as I both reply to her letter and then reply back with questions from her sister. I will post the first letter I got from her in Black. Also I removed all last names.
Rick,
Finally, after years of trying to my Mormon sister to discuss the church, she sends me this email. I think I finally got to her when I said that since she's planning on going on a mission this autumn with her husband, she might want to learn to ":give an answer for her faith." I'm just wondering if you have time to tell me how you would respond to her email.
Blessings,
Sara (BTW, I got your email off the answeringlds webcite)
Sara,
Since this is the second time that you have mentioned the statement of Joseph Smith and, since you said that " I'm just confused - hoping maybe you could clear that up for me.", I feel it important to help you understand what Joseph Smith said.
I give the following to help you understand Joseph Smith's teachings.
First, let me quote what Joseph Smith wrote:
I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those profesors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, verse 19)
Now what this did not say is that their "churches/ministers were an abomination."
What it does say is that "all their creeds were an abomination". To understand the work of Joseph Smith and the need for a restoration, you have to understand this statement. It follows that if the creeds are wrong, then the churches that believe in these creeds have intruduced errors into their teachings and "are teaching for doctrines the commandments of men (i.e. the inaccuracies in the creeds;" see Matt 15: 9)
It doesn't say that the other Churches don't have some truth, or that they don't do much good, or that they are not sincere in their desire to approach God or that they are not diligently trying to follow the gospel.
It does say that God is displeased when anyone teaches for doctrine the ideas of men.
What creeds is He talking about? Well, I think to start with it is the Nicene Creed and other creeds and beliefs that came out of the church councils of the 4th and 5th century and are accepted as true doctrinal statements of the gospel by many churc hes. By the way, it is interesting to me that nowhere in the Bible is there an example of doctrine or revelation being given through a large group of people (council or committee) where they debate and vote on what is true.
How much do you know about these councils? Who made the creeds up? How accurately does it reflect Bible teachings?
"In the year A.D. 325 the Roman emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea to address—among other things—the growing issue of God’s alleged “trinity in unity.” What emerged from the heated contentions of churchmen, philosophers, and ecclesiastical dignitaries came to be known (after another 125 years and three more major councils) as the Nicene Creed, with later reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed. These various evolutions and iterations of creeds—and others to come over the centuries—declared the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost to be abstract, absolute, transcendent, immanent, consubstantial, coeternal, and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions and dwelling outside space and time. In such creeds all three members are separate persons, but they are a single being, the oft-noted “mystery of the trinity.” They are three distinct persons, yet not three Gods but one. All three persons are incomprehensible, yet it is one God who is incomprehensible." (Jeffrey R. Holland, Oct 2007 conference)
Harper’s Bible Dictionary (not a Mormon dictionary) records that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].” (Paul F. Achtemeier, ed. (1985), 1099)
The controversy which you point out begins with the very understanding of the nature of God and the Godhead. Joseph Smith was told that the creeds were wrong and he learned for himself the very nature of God and Christ as he spoke to them. What is ironical is that in the premortal life we all understood this perfectly well and as soon as our premortal memory is restored it will be clear which doctrine is right and there will be no need for dicussion.
Now I recognize that alot more could be discussed about the creeds. But what the Joseph Smith story says is that the inacuracies in the "creeds" are a flaw in the doctrinal foundation of any church who accepts them. They lead away from Biblical understanding not toward it. And since the truth was not completely understood (evidence of that is the roughly 1,000 different Christian denominations all with some difference in their beliefs), therefore the need for a restoration of the gospel.
I do not expect you to believe this, but at least I hope you will quote Joseph Smith correctly.
=0 A
By the way, what do you believe about these creeds and the nature of God which they imply as compared to the belief that the Godhead is composed of 3 distinct personages with God, the Father, and the Son having glorified resurrected bodies?
Love,
Kathy
Kathy,
I take it you are not interested in doing the Bible study online???? You didn't give an answer.
When I finally saw the truth about Mromonism it was because a French pastor in Hungary had the courage to speak the truth to me. I would much rather have truth spoken to me than anything else. I guess we're polar opposites on that one.
I'm very confused about Mormonism because you quote from Catherine Marshall yet Joseph Smith said that all Christian churches/ministers (including her husband) were an abomination and their teachings wer false. Did the church change or did they just change the test of the First Vision? I'm just confused--hoping maybe you cuold clear that up for me.
Happy 60th! And yes, you are beginning to seem like Mom. Mom kept her world confined to within her four walls, pretty much.
Sara
NOW, Here is my first reply to Sara, I will reply in sections as it was so long. Rick b
Hello Sara,
Here is part of my reply for you. it is pretty long so I will send more later. Rick b
Hello Sara, I will break down the question and reply to it in sections. Also I don't know if you will even agree with me on my position of the creeds issue, so that might cause problems, but you can let me know your thoughts.
Kathy said:
"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, verse 19)
Now what this did not say is that their "churches/ministers were an abomination."
What it does say is that "all their creeds were an abomination". To understand the work of Joseph Smith and the need for a restoration, you have to understand this statement. It follows that if the creeds are wrong, then the churches that believe in these creeds have introduced errors into their teachings and "are teaching for doctrines the commandments of men (i.e. the inaccuracies in the creeds;" see Matt 15: 9)"
Rick Replies with.
Here are a few problems I have with this, When Jesus walked the earth he took issue with what the so-called religious leaders said and taught, He did not point out their so called creeds, he called the teachers to account, Scripture teaches us that the issues of the heart, flow from the mouth.
"
Mat 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Ma t 15:20 These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man."
Now let me go back over something again, Kathy said, JS said,
"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt;"
JS claims all the "Professors" are corrupt. So If JS claims God said this then how can Kathy say this,
"Now what this did not say is that their "churches/ministers were an abomination."
If the Church is a mere building, then it stands to reason a building cannot speak, But Jesus taught we the people are the church, Then are not these so called Professors just another title for the Minister? if so, then yes they are being called corrupt.
Remember As I pointed out, Jesus did call the religious leaders, ministers, teachers to account, even if they were teaching commandments of men. So Why would God change that when he spoke with JS?
Kathy said:
"What it does say is that "all their creeds were an abomination". To understand the work of Joseph Smith and the need for a restoration, you have to understand this statement. It follows that if the creeds are wrong, then the churches that believe in these creeds have intruduced errors into their teachings and "are teaching for doctrines the commandments of men (i.e. the inaccuracies in the c reeds;" see Matt 15: 9)"
Rick replys, Question? If Kathy Quotes from Matthew saying Jesus was rebuking them for teaching commandments of men, then why did Jesus not set the record straight right then and their? why did He wait till He died, Rose again then let almost 1800 years pass to bring around JS? Then after JS came on the scene, He found the Golden plates but buried them since he was told the time was not right, then he waited many years, this makes zero sense.
Kathy said:
"It doesn't say that the other Churches don't have some truth, or that they don't do much good, or that they are not sincere in their desire to approach God or that they are not diligently trying to follow the gospel."
Rick Said: Does Kathy not read the BoM or read so called teachers of Mormonism? Here is what the BoM says,
"1 Ne. 14: 3, 9-10, 17
3 And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell—yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, saith the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.
&nbs p; 9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.
1 Ne. 13: 6
6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.
1 Ne. 22: 23
23 For the time speedily shall come that all churches which are built up to get gain, and all those who are built up to get power over the flesh, and those who are built up to become popular i n the eyes of the world, and those who seek the lusts of the flesh and the things of the world, and to do all manner of iniquity; yea, in fine, all those who belong to the kingdom of the devil are they who need fear, and tremble, and quake; they are those who must be brought low in the dust; they are those who must be consumed as stubble; and this is according to the words of the prophet."
Now let me point out again, Kathy said: "It doesn't say that the other Churches don't have some truth, or that they don't do much good, or that they are not sincere in their desire to approach God or that they are not diligently trying to follow the gospel."
Rick says, Now please show me from those verse in the BoM where it teaches other churchs have some good teachings, or are trying to be honest. It simply does not teach that, so it seems Kathy is wrong.
Now here is what one LDS "teacher" teaches, and in his reply he quotes from the LDS BoM and Pearl. Let me first add that, Many LDS have even tried to get around the issue of the 1st Nephi quote, about their is only two churches. The LDS know that when the B.O.M Speaks about the True Church being the Lamb of God, it speaks about their Church. So it would stand to reason, ANY church that is Not LDS related does or could fall under the Church of the Devil.
"In the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R. McConkie Page 137-138 Under Church of the devil He says just what I said.
The titles church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify ALL Churchs or organizations of whatever name or nature-whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious-which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God.
Bruce goes on to say, under the same heading and page.
Any church or organization of any kind whatever which satisfies the innate religious longings of man and keeps him from coming to the saving truths of Christ and his gospel is therefore not of God.
Hence we find our Lord saying,
"he that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."(Matthew.12:30)
And hence we find Alma inviting the wicked to repent and join the true Church of Christ and become the sheep of the Good Shepherd.
"And now if ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? he ask's. "Behold, I say unto you, that the devil is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold; and know, who can deny this? Behold, I say unto you, whosoever denieth this is a liar and a child of the devil"(Alma 5:39; Jos. Smith2:19.)"
Sunday, July 20, 2008
Acts Chapter 7
Read over the portion of Acts I posted, then read my thoughts.
I posted this because this is another thing for LDS to think about.
The LDS BoM quotes from the Bibles OT, Yet when Stephen gave a break down of a good portion of the OT and some prophets, he never mentioned any BoM prophets. Please do not give the excuse, well the Mormon people were in a far away land and they did not know each other. That is a bogus statement if I ever heard one. The reason why is, Adam down to Noah we have the records of what they did and places they went, yet after the world wide flood destroyed the entire earth, so we dont know where Adam down to Noah lived since everything was destroyed so badly. Then the Bible is made up of, 40 different authors over 1000's of years, and the BoM claims that some Mormon People were around the tower of Babel along with people in the Bible.
So the question is, why can the BoM quote OT bible prophets, but no prophet or any human for that matter has ever quoted from the BoM. Stephen was a good example, that was why I used him. Rick b.
PS, Yuki where did you go?
Act 7:1 Then said the high priest, Are these things so?
Act 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
Act 7:3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
Act 7:4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
Act 7:5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not [so much as] to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when [as yet] he had no child.
Act 7:6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat [them] evil four hundred years.
Act 7:7 And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.
Act 7:8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so [Abraham] begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac [begat] Jacob; and Jacob [begat] the twelve patriarchs.
Act 7:9 And the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him,
Act 7:10 And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house.
Act 7:11 Now there came a dearth over all the land of Egypt and Chanaan, and great affliction: and our fathers found no sustenance.
Act 7:12 But when Jacob heard that there was corn in Egypt, he sent out our fathers first.
Act 7:13 And at the second [time] Joseph was made known to his brethren; and Joseph's kindred was made known unto Pharaoh.
Act 7:14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to [him], and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.
Act 7:15 So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers,
Act 7:16 And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor [the father] of Sychem.
Act 7:17 But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt,
Act 7:18 Till another king arose, which knew not Joseph.
Act 7:19 The same dealt subtilly with our kindred, and evil entreated our fathers, so that they cast out their young children, to the end they might not live.
Act 7:20 In which time Moses was born, and was exceeding fair, and nourished up in his father's house three months:
Act 7:21 And when he was cast out, Pharaoh's daughter took him up, and nourished him for her own son.
Act 7:22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.
Act 7:23 And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel.
Act 7:24 And seeing one [of them] suffer wrong, he defended [him], and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian:
Act 7:25 For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.
Act 7:26 And the next day he shewed himself unto them as they strove, and would have set them at one again, saying, Sirs, ye are brethren; why do ye wrong one to another?
Act 7:27 But he that did his neighbour wrong thrust him away, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge over us?
Act 7:28 Wilt thou kill me, as thou diddest the Egyptian yesterday?
Act 7:29 Then fled Moses at this saying, and was a stranger in the land of Madian, where he begat two sons.
Act 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
Act 7:31 When Moses saw [it], he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold [it], the voice of the Lord came unto him,
Act 7:32 [Saying], I [am] the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.
Act 7:33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.
Act 7:34 I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt.
Act 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send [to be] a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
Act 7:36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
Act 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Act 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust [him] from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
Act 7:40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for [as for] this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
Act 7:41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.
Act 7:42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices [by the space of] forty years in the wilderness?
Act 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.
Act 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.
Act 7:45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;
Act 7:46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.
Act 7:47 But Solomon built him an house.
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven [is] my throne, and earth [is] my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what [is] the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept [it].
Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with [their] teeth.
I posted this because this is another thing for LDS to think about.
The LDS BoM quotes from the Bibles OT, Yet when Stephen gave a break down of a good portion of the OT and some prophets, he never mentioned any BoM prophets. Please do not give the excuse, well the Mormon people were in a far away land and they did not know each other. That is a bogus statement if I ever heard one. The reason why is, Adam down to Noah we have the records of what they did and places they went, yet after the world wide flood destroyed the entire earth, so we dont know where Adam down to Noah lived since everything was destroyed so badly. Then the Bible is made up of, 40 different authors over 1000's of years, and the BoM claims that some Mormon People were around the tower of Babel along with people in the Bible.
So the question is, why can the BoM quote OT bible prophets, but no prophet or any human for that matter has ever quoted from the BoM. Stephen was a good example, that was why I used him. Rick b.
PS, Yuki where did you go?
Wednesday, July 02, 2008
some questions for LDS to think about.
Well, I am so busy I do not know how often I will be able to post. So if I post only once a month or longer I at least want to leave some questions for LDS to think about.
Joseph Smith said, No man can see God and live, without the Priesthood, D and C 84 19-22.
So if that really is true, How could JOSEPH SMITH, Really see God the Father and Jesus Christ in the First Vision and still live, Since when JS claims he saw them he did not have the priesthood.
Joseph Smith Also said:
Joseph Smith declared that “the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, . . . and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than any other book” (History of the Church, 4:461).
If this is true, why was/is their over 4,000 changes to the BoM? So much for correct.
Add to that, the way JS translated the BoM by sticking his head in a hat and telling his buddy oliver the letter that came to light in the hat. if Joseph told Oliver the letter (A) and Oliver wrote down the letter (A) then the letter JS saw would disappear for Good. But if JS told Oliver the letter (A) and oliver wrote down the letter (B) the letter (A) would remain. So it should be impossible for their ever to have been one single mistake in the BoM.
Jesus said about the OT, you search the Scriptures for the testify of Me, we really do see Jesus through out the entire OT, Yet this is not the case with the BoM. We find some cases of out right plagiarism in the BoM.
So if we look at it like this, if something is word for word, like entire Chapters of the Book of Isiah from the Bible are found in the BoM then why do we need them in both books? so if we simply remove the teachings from the BoM seeing how we have them in the Bible then we really do not have much left in the BoM, and since we do not have much left in the BoM, how is it now going to get me closer to God? What is left in the BoM after you remove the teachings that are already found in the Bible that will teach me or get me closer to God?
We read in the Bible over 1,800 prophecies. so how many do we read of in the BoM? I will post more questions to think about as I get time. Rick b
Joseph Smith said, No man can see God and live, without the Priesthood, D and C 84 19-22.
So if that really is true, How could JOSEPH SMITH, Really see God the Father and Jesus Christ in the First Vision and still live, Since when JS claims he saw them he did not have the priesthood.
Joseph Smith Also said:
Joseph Smith declared that “the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, . . . and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than any other book” (History of the Church, 4:461).
If this is true, why was/is their over 4,000 changes to the BoM? So much for correct.
Add to that, the way JS translated the BoM by sticking his head in a hat and telling his buddy oliver the letter that came to light in the hat. if Joseph told Oliver the letter (A) and Oliver wrote down the letter (A) then the letter JS saw would disappear for Good. But if JS told Oliver the letter (A) and oliver wrote down the letter (B) the letter (A) would remain. So it should be impossible for their ever to have been one single mistake in the BoM.
Jesus said about the OT, you search the Scriptures for the testify of Me, we really do see Jesus through out the entire OT, Yet this is not the case with the BoM. We find some cases of out right plagiarism in the BoM.
So if we look at it like this, if something is word for word, like entire Chapters of the Book of Isiah from the Bible are found in the BoM then why do we need them in both books? so if we simply remove the teachings from the BoM seeing how we have them in the Bible then we really do not have much left in the BoM, and since we do not have much left in the BoM, how is it now going to get me closer to God? What is left in the BoM after you remove the teachings that are already found in the Bible that will teach me or get me closer to God?
We read in the Bible over 1,800 prophecies. so how many do we read of in the BoM? I will post more questions to think about as I get time. Rick b
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